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Cognitive Dissident

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Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« on: February 18, 2011, 03:01:59 AM »

I've been completely enamored with the Mises Institute's podcast: The Libertarian Tradition, with Jeff Riggenbach, since discovering it.  I've been meaning to recommend it.

In this podcast on Rudolf Rocker, Jeff Shreds Anarcho-syndicalism, which I'm going to say is essentially what the Zeitgeist movement nuts are about.

When people describe themselves as left-libertarian, look out!  They're probably just leftists who think they're libertarian.  Jeff explains.

Hope you enjoy it, and the rest of The Libertarian Tradition.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 03:03:54 AM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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Brooklyn Red Leg

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2011, 03:19:42 AM »

Listening right now. Pretty good....

Inb4 our board Anarcho-Syndicalist tears into us evil 'AnCaps' for our 'coercion' and how there is no way to have 'Socialist Town and Capitalist Town', so we all have to be dragooned into Socialist Town (or shot, not sure).
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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 09:44:29 AM »


When people describe themselves as left-libertarian, look out!  They're probably just leftists who think they're libertarian.  Jeff explains.


Funny you mention this now. I was listening to a podcast from a guy named Mike Ruppert called The Lifeboat Hour, former LA detective who tried blowing the lid off of the government sponsored drug dealing going on in the city years ago. Pretty much fucked up his whole life over the ordeal and disappeared to South America for a while. Interesting guy, but he's all into self sustainability and getting people involved in this quasi-socialist voluntary society before the SHTF. I dont buy into this guys stuff, but its an interesting listen just to see how other people think.

Anyway, he was talking about this exact type of thing on his last podcast. Saying "Hmmmm, progressive left leaning Libertarian............I like the sound of that". 

Guy is kinda schizo if you ask me. On one hand he talks up Ron Paul alot, but then the next word out of his mouth is some socialist greeny sounding dribble.

Seems every movement is trying to attach themselves to libertarianism in some way or another.

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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 01:59:59 PM »

Seems every movement is trying to attach themselves to libertarianism in some way or another.

I think this can be expected.  Deep down, everyone knows what's wrong (tyranny, and the answer's liberty.)  Still, most people who reach the libertarian-leaning phase tend to have their "exceptions."  We're probably all too familiar with the typical right-wing minarchist exceptions such as borders and the military.  Now we've got a new group with different exceptions like government cheese, drug treatment programs, "net neutrality," etc.  

I guess we should be glad they're leaning libertarian.  We just have to point out that there's more to liberty than what they're seeing.


PS: We should probably congratulate the "progressives" who have abandoned the idea that everything done by the state is good, and support their notion that the state sucks at most (though we're trying to get them to except "all") of what it does.  I get the feeling what's new about these people is an appreciation for markets that their more socialist friends don't have.  Unfortunately, much like their adversaries on the right, they tend to have faith in the state as the purveyor of "law and order."
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 02:04:32 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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Zhwazi

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 06:46:53 PM »

In this podcast on Rudolf Rocker, Jeff Shreds Anarcho-syndicalism
He doesn't even talk about anarcho-syndicalism much, and the only things he says are that its economics are wrong (he doesnt elaborate on why, not surprising given target audience) and that it would either become chaos or communism as if chaos was somehow not anarchistic. Markets are chaotic.

Quote
When people describe themselves as left-libertarian, look out!  They're probably just leftists who think they're libertarian.  Jeff explains.
I didn't see him explain this either. How far in was this explanation?

Inb4 our board Anarcho-Syndicalist tears into us evil 'AnCaps' for our 'coercion' and how there is no way to have 'Socialist Town and Capitalist Town', so we all have to be dragooned into Socialist Town (or shot, not sure).
You don't need to demonize me just because I'm threateningly well-aware of anarchocapitalist beliefs and disagree. I'm not an anarcho-syndicalist. It makes you look childish and immaturity is probably not a stigma you would knowingly associate with your genuine beliefs by example.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 11:02:13 PM »

In this podcast on Rudolf Rocker, Jeff Shreds Anarcho-syndicalism
He doesn't even talk about anarcho-syndicalism much, and the only things he says are that its economics are wrong (he doesnt elaborate on why, not surprising given target audience) and that it would either become chaos or communism as if chaos was somehow not anarchistic. Markets are chaotic.

Quote
When people describe themselves as left-libertarian, look out!  They're probably just leftists who think they're libertarian.  Jeff explains.
I didn't see him explain this either. How far in was this explanation?

Inb4 our board Anarcho-Syndicalist tears into us evil 'AnCaps' for our 'coercion' and how there is no way to have 'Socialist Town and Capitalist Town', so we all have to be dragooned into Socialist Town (or shot, not sure).
You don't need to demonize me just because I'm threateningly well-aware of anarchocapitalist beliefs and disagree. I'm not an anarcho-syndicalist. It makes you look childish and immaturity is probably not a stigma you would knowingly associate with your genuine beliefs by example.

Worked for me.  Maybe you need to listen again.  IIRC, you're pretty obtuse.
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Zhwazi

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 11:18:21 PM »

I listened to it again and this time (since I now have time for it) went through the painstaking process of transcribing the relevant portions.

Here's everything I could find "ripping into anarcho-syndicalism". Starting at 12:27:

Quote
Logical analysis of these schemes would readily show that the whole program is nonsense. Either of two things would occur. One central agency would plan for and direct the various subgroups, or the collectives themselves would be really autonomous. But the crucial question is whether these agencies would be empowered to use force to put their decisions into effect. Rothbard observes that all of the leftwing anarchists have agreed that force is necessary against recalcitrance. But then the first possibility means nothing more nor less than communism, while the second leads to a real chaos of diverse and clashing communisms that would probably lead finally to some central communism after a period of social war. Thus leftwing anarchism must in practice signify either regular communism or a true chaos of communistic syndics. In both cases the actual result must be that the state is reestablished under another name. It is the tragic irony of left-wing anarchism that despite the hopes of its supporters, it is not really anarchism at all. It is either communism or chaos.
The highlighted portions are completely unsupported. If he is presenting the exhaustive list of possible outcomes as only these two, then that right there is plenty of reason to take objection. There is no reason given why the syndicates could not peacefully coexist. Unresolvable conflict is simply assumed, and I cannot see why. It's exactly the same as arguing that individualistic anarchism (including anarcho-capitalism) would never work because people will either be led by a single central body, or will all constantly be fighting with each other until one person comes out on top and rules them anyways. Ancaps will definitely not believe it if the same logic is applied to their system, why should a syndicalist be convinced by the same logic? The only distinguishing and relevant factor between the syndicalist and individualist systems is that one involves making decisions as a group, and one is individual decisionmaking. Does acting as a small group instead of as individuals somehow make it impossible to get along with other small groups? If so, I demand evidence.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 11:21:50 PM by Zhwazi »
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2011, 11:41:34 PM »

You don't get to demand shit.

@zhwazi - Your criticism remains, but your trolling doesn't.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 12:28:05 AM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2011, 11:47:00 AM »

Zhwazi: "I advocate everything syndicalism stands for, but not syndicalism itself..." (obviously hyperbole)

Anyway: listening now, opinion later, but...
Zhwazi: Markets are not chaos, and making decisions as a (for the) group is essentially  what government is (or claims).
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Zhwazi

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2011, 11:56:08 AM »

Also while I was discussing this with somebody else I realized a point of irony. This particular syndicalist was also said to be trying to reconcile and get along with all the other various forms of anarchism and he opposed the "your anarchism isn't really anarchism" sort of arguments of exactly the nature that Riggenbach made against anarcho-syndicalism.

Also in what I would consider intellectual dishonesty to attempt to support a predetermined conclusion, and despite the fact that Rocker makes it clear that he advocates "a sort of voluntary socialism", Riggenbach cites Rothbard's notations based on other syndicalists that he spoke with that they all favor using force against recalcitrance as if this necessarily reflects the thoughts of Rocker, who was probably not surveyed by Rothbard. Aside from the fuzziness of the term "recalcitrance" (which I suspect is deliberate), it does not necessarily apply to Rocker simply because he shares a label with others that do. Per wikipedia if I may cite it as reliable, he considered himself an anarchist-without-adjectives, which usually arises from disagreement with some aspect of all the major branches of anarchism and a fusionist or compatiblistic tendency like what I mentioned in the first paragraph, further supporting my objection to attributing the beliefs of others to Rocker.

Zhwazi: "I advocate everything syndicalism stands for, but not syndicalism itself..." (obviously hyperbole)
I agree with Rocker that the differences between anarchisms is largely one of preferred method of economic organization. It's similar but imagine the result of the ideal syndicate size being 1 person. That's sorta like what I advocate.

Quote
Zhwazi: Markets are not chaos, and making decisions as a (for the) group is essentially  what government is (or claims).
Markets are chaos. They are a chaos that gets things done, but they are definitely chaotic compared to the order one might get from a government with total control over the economy. Chaos isn't bad. Also, not all group decisionmaking is government. Government includes that, but government is also more than that.
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2011, 12:22:24 PM »

Also while I was discussing this with somebody else I realized a point of irony. This particular syndicalist was also said to be trying to reconcile and get along with all the other various forms of anarchism and he opposed the "your anarchism isn't really anarchism" sort of arguments of exactly the nature that Riggenbach made against anarcho-syndicalism.

Also in what I would consider intellectual dishonesty to attempt to support a predetermined conclusion, and despite the fact that Rocker makes it clear that he advocates "a sort of voluntary socialism", Riggenbach cites Rothbard's notations based on other syndicalists that he spoke with that they all favor using force against recalcitrance as if this necessarily reflects the thoughts of Rocker, who was probably not surveyed by Rothbard. Aside from the fuzziness of the term "recalcitrance" (which I suspect is deliberate), it does not necessarily apply to Rocker simply because he shares a label with others that do. Per wikipedia if I may cite it as reliable, he considered himself an anarchist-without-adjectives, which usually arises from disagreement with some aspect of all the major branches of anarchism and a fusionist or compatiblistic tendency like what I mentioned in the first paragraph, further supporting my objection to attributing the beliefs of others to Rocker.

Zhwazi: "I advocate everything syndicalism stands for, but not syndicalism itself..." (obviously hyperbole)
I agree with Rocker that the differences between anarchisms is largely one of preferred method of economic organization. It's similar but imagine the result of the ideal syndicate size being 1 person. That's sorta like what I advocate.

Quote
Zhwazi: Markets are not chaos, and making decisions as a (for the) group is essentially  what government is (or claims).
Markets are chaos. They are a chaos that gets things done, but they are definitely chaotic compared to the order one might get from a government with total control over the economy. Chaos isn't bad. Also, not all group decisionmaking is government. Government includes that, but government is also more than that.


Google say:
Quote
a state of extreme confusion and disorder
or
Chaos (derived from the Ancient Greek Χάος, Chaos) typically means a state lacking order or predictability. ...

Markets are not chaos. I would expect you, of all people on this board, to have read I, Pencil.
The basis/foundation/root cause of government is to make decisions for a group.
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Zhwazi

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2011, 12:29:18 PM »

I use chaos in the sense of "lacking order". It's similar to a forest as opposed to a grove. The forest is chaotic. The grove is ordered. The structure (or lack thereof) of a forest serves the needs of the life in it, the grove serves the needs of the life outside it.

Not all rectangles are squares. Not all group decisionmaking is government. This line of thought is going nowhere.
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alaric89

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2011, 01:23:05 PM »

That at least is true.... your train of thought goes nowhere.
Sorry WTFK. :( I linked our statist Friend to here.

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2011, 01:28:30 PM »

(I have endeavored, over the past year or two, to avoid just this sort of hot air vortex...but now I've failed....)

I don't think it's true.

Markets are not chaos.  They specifically are order, whereas states pretend to cause order by putting words on paper and cause chaos.  Neither does the public's response to those edicts resemble order, nor the acts of law enforcement, or for that matter, the courts.  The market, on the other hand, is a voluntary order, that can be seen from the atomic level though not always from a top-down hierarchical level--because it's not a hierarchy, nor can it be.

The chaos which is caused by impossible edicts is real, at the top, bottom, and in between.  The order, which is caused by markets, and the fundamental atomic action of quid pro quo, is order, at every level, though the person who sees order as top-down design does not see the order.

As for Riggenbach, his point that a is salient.  There have been successful examples of communism within a free market, because free markets can tolerate voluntary communism within, though communism cannot tolerate markets within.  Yet, all the "great" American communist colonies eventually failed when they became populated by progeny who were not as "faithful" in the system as their progenitors.  The two obvious responses to this are to allow failure or to force those within to follow the system.  Neither worked, and hence, those colonies, even after attaining considerable success, failed.

It's been said that organizing libertarians is like herding cats.  That's because in the context of liberty, top down hierarchy does not work well.  That does not mean a voluntary order is not possible--but these fantasies of top-down design are just that--fantasies.  

That said, there is a system in which hierarchies, though probably not optimal, are in common use, in a context of liberty.  This is in combination with property.  When a property owner sets the rules on his property, he organizes, top down if he chooses, the way in which labor will be structured, in addition to the flow of resources.  The providers of labor voluntarily participate, or leave if/when they choose.  

Management gurus have learned that the hierarchy in such an endeavor, unlike the state, is not necessarily a rigid hierarchy.  The most successful market endeavors allow an astonishing level of autonomy on the part of the participants, but ultimately hold them responsible for any abuse or unwise use of this autonomy (to some extent, this is self-evident--it is why middle managers are needed in large endeavors.)  Recognize how much more this is true of a typical private business than a corporation.  

This is why corporations are wasteful and rely on their state connections in a competitive context, while private businesses are more robust (and, typically, much smaller.)  Once again, the voluntary order at the atomic level trumps imposed hierarchy.  The only reason this can be accomplished, in a large endeavor, is because the property owner chooses not to impose strict hierarchy, while also holding the participants accountable.  Without a property owner, this is not possible.

Thus, the ownership of the means of production allows the owner to choose the direction of an endeavor without necessarily defining all tasks and all uses of resources, while participation can remain voluntary, in a free market.  In such a system, all actors can be held accountable, which is not possible under any other known system.  People can voluntarily attempt another system, within the context of liberty, but it is my belief and that of many others that such an attempt is foolhardy and either results in its failure to create wealth in the long term or its failure to remain voluntary.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Mises' Jeff Riggenbach shreds the Zeitgeist movement (sort of)
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2011, 01:41:56 PM »

I use chaos in the sense of "lacking order". It's similar to a forest as opposed to a grove. The forest is chaotic. The grove is ordered. The structure (or lack thereof) of a forest serves the needs of the life in it, the grove serves the needs of the life outside it.

Not all rectangles are squares. Not all group decisionmaking is government. This line of thought is going nowhere.

After having written what I have, I suppose it makes sense to comment on this.  The reason you see chaos in the forest and not in the grove is because you see structure as merely hierarchy.  Hierarchy is only one kind of structure.  If the same space currently operated by one farmer were sold off into land plots operated by several farmers, you would, no doubt fail to see the order, but order would exist.  The order would be created by the individual farmers who operate the individual plots.  Break this down on a plant-to-plant level, and you see the apparent "lack of order" (which is not a lack of order) in a free market.  One can also predict that such a system will be productive than one (say, of 5000 acres or more, to pick a number out of the blue) operated by a single farmer with a plethora of robots he individual programs to accomplish his singular will.


Added the part at the very end specifying that his singular will is imposed on the whole crop
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 01:45:24 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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