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Author Topic: Minarchists are fucking crazy.  (Read 14229 times)

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Pizzly

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2011, 11:41:34 AM »

It tends to seem that minarchists feel the state is an attempt to solve the problem of security, while anarchists see the state as an attempt to exploit the problem of security. Those are two very incompatible views.
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dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2011, 11:47:32 AM »

Promote the chaos horror story and then sell them the snake oil solution of statism.  The perfect crime!

blackie

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2011, 01:19:21 PM »

The need is irrelevent to whether or not a mini-state can ever be as accountable as an organization operating within the checks and balances of a free market.
If there are checks and balances, it is not a free market.

But anyway, your premise is that a state can never be as accountable as an organization operating in the free market?

How are you defining "free market"?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:35:31 PM by blackie »
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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2011, 05:49:08 PM »

ugh, thousands of organizations have monopolies on violence within the boundaries of their organization.  I think the issue is whether participation in those organizations is voluntary.
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dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2011, 06:15:04 PM »

If there are checks and balances, it is not a free market.

The free market is the checks and balances, and it beats the Hell out of internal ones, i.e. counting on a criminal organization to keep itself in check.

Quote
How are you defining "free market"?

If an organization has a special privilege to violate the NAP with wild abandon and the huge vast majority of the population believes in that privilege, than it's not operating within a free market.  I suppose if you wanted to get technical, you'd have to call it a freer market as a totally free market implies there's not any crime or violence at all taking place.  The goal would be to minimize it by opposing crime consistently (and not making an exception when a government engages in it).

lucidhawk

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 01:07:15 AM »

In my opinion.. Once a person accepts institutionalizing violence initiation (government) is wrong and empowering it is wrong; then they should advocate 100% dismantling of government or they are a part of the problem.

Rather or not governments are inevitable is not a reason to advocate government. It's akin to advocating random theft or violence because they are inevitable to happen within a sufficiently large human society.

A person can theorize their whole life about about warring security agencies and mobs attempting to gain power; the point is : what they are responsible for is not theoretical, it is not theoretical to actively empower or advocate violence initiation.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 01:13:17 AM by lucidhawk »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 11:39:06 AM »

What he said.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011, 03:35:49 PM »


Quote
How are you defining "free market"?

If an organization has a special privilege to violate the NAP with wild abandon and the huge vast majority of the population believes in that privilege, than it's not operating within a free market.  I suppose if you wanted to get technical, you'd have to call it a freer market as a totally free market implies there's not any crime or violence at all taking place.  The goal would be to minimize it by opposing crime consistently (and not making an exception when a government engages in it).

Can you please define "free market" as you are using it?

It sounds like you don't think a free market is possible.

To me, the free market has nothing to do with NAP, or crime. It just means a market with no regulations placed on it. In a free market, I could hire someone to commit crimes for me.



Would that also mean you're respecting the NAP because you're having other people become aggressive on your behalf?
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Ecolitan

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2011, 04:30:48 PM »

In my opinion.. Once a person accepts institutionalizing violence initiation (government) is wrong and empowering it is wrong; then they should advocate 100% dismantling of government or they are a part of the problem.
So, if you pay taxes, you  are a part of the problem.

Who cares what someone "advocates"? Talk is cheap.

I do.  It might not matter if you are surrounded by hostile people and someone says: "kick his ass" but it becomes a real problem if they actually do it.  Suddenly that advocate for kicking your ass isn't so harmless.  Advocates of taxation are morally equal to advocates of invading your home and taking your television.

Simply paying taxes doesn't mean you're anything other than another victim of the state.
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dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2011, 05:47:23 PM »

Can you please define "free market" as you are using it?

It sounds like you don't think a free market is possible.

You're right in the sense that I don't believe in some sort of utopia where there will be no crime.  Like I said earlier, I doubt we'll ever live in a world completely free of crime, either traditional or the more organized and efficient government form.  But we can have a freer market than we have now.

I think you're playing dumb, but I'll play along for now and dumb it down for you.  Freedom and crime are antitheses of each other.  What is regulation if not thinly-veiled threats of violence?  We can pretend you have choices W, X, Y, and Z while I'm pointing a gun at you and saying "If you do X or Y I'll kill you, but I'll let you do W or Z".  That's government regulation in a nutshell and it's simply a form of violence.

Quote
To me, the free market has nothing to do with NAP, or crime. It just means a market with no regulations placed on it. In a free market, I could hire someone to commit crimes for me.

Then you don't understand what freedom is.  See above.  You arbitrarily distinguish between governments that regulate and other violent criminal organizations (the defining delusion of minarchism), but governments are just a flavor of crime that works really well.  If you're hiring someone to do crime, that's not fitting with my definition of a free market.  A free market is voluntary exchange absent force or fraud.  I happen to think we'll all be able to combat such activities a lot better when we stop being deluded that the government form of crime is protecting us from more traditional notions of crime.  That would be a freer market than what we have now but crime won't just vanish and get replaced by utopia as people figure out how stupid an idea minarchy is.  It will just speed up our evolution as we realize we have to start experimenting with rational solutions for crime.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 05:51:09 PM by Dalebert »
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dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2011, 11:47:21 PM »

lucidhawk

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2011, 08:21:56 AM »

In my opinion.. Once a person accepts institutionalizing violence initiation (government) is wrong and empowering it is wrong; then they should advocate 100% dismantling of government or they are a part of the problem.
So, if you pay taxes, you  are a part of the problem.

Who cares what someone "advocates"? Talk is cheap.

Eh.. I see your point but I don't necessarily agree with it. That's basically just withholding consent, with an added bonus of cage.
Unless it influences other people to hate statism..

If everyone stopped paying taxes the government would just print money.

If everyone stopped using fiat currency.. That's a bit different.

If I had a lot of influence and I turned 10 minarchists through "advocation" the ripple effects of those 10 people could be quite large;  who's to say that's not worth more than withholding some weaksauce amount of money from the government.  

Now if I was Bill Gates withholding taxes...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 08:24:41 AM by lucidhawk »
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dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2011, 12:23:45 PM »

Yeah, that's what I thought. You can't defend your position with a logical argument.

I've responded plainly and clearly several times and you keep playing dumb.

Spideynw

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2011, 12:54:29 PM »

You're asking the wrong questions so it's no surprise he had a difficult time finding an answer to please you.

It seemed to me he asked the right question.  Only documents that are signed can be considered as legal documents, that's the only way we know it was freely accepted.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2011, 08:12:12 PM »

Nobody alive signing the constitution nor did anyone who had any sort of legal authority to make a contractual obligation for someone who has not yet been born.
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