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Author Topic: Minarchists are fucking crazy.  (Read 15283 times)

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LTKoblinsky

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 06:31:17 PM »

How's this one for you. Governments are a fact of life. Whether voluntary, coercive, or just plain evil, they will always exist. People like joining groups. The coercive force monopoly is necessary and good as it allows neighbors to say to each other, 'if I feel wronged, I'm not just going to go blowing shit up, I'm going to let this rational, objective arbiter decide what compensation is just and then enforce that sentence.' This facilitates relations between complete strangers and helps groups stay together. In reality, though, the system is greatly flawed and I'm not even sure the ideal is attainable.


'If men were angels, no government would be necessary.'

How's this for you.  Monopoly governments may very well be a fact of life, but remember that to an anarchist, a monopoly government is just a very efficient form of crime.  Gubments have convinced people their crimes are a necessary evil so people don't oppose their crimes.  And yes, I will concede that there will always be some crime.  That's a poor reason for failing to consistently oppose crime if we want minimal crime.  You WANT them to be a rational, objective arbiter who metes out justice with discretion but the very fact that you've insisted on it being a monopoly (by buying into the minarchist fallacy) removes the accountability that would actually encourage such traits.  As a minarchist, your thinking is no more rational than a Christian who believes in Heaven simply because he's really afraid of death (note, I'm not arguing against other reasons or evidence others might have for that belief).  A powerful desire for something is not evidence for its existence-- in this case that something being a rational, objective arbiter.  And there is no rational reason for expecting a violently imposed monopoly to be rational and objective.

This is what absolutely makes my head want to implode trying to discuss this subject with minarchist objectivists.  Pay attention the next time you're talking to one (or if you are one, try to listen to yourself and catch yourself when you do it).  They keep arguing for minarchy based on NEED!  The moment that word comes up in a socialist's argument for welfare programs, they break out in hives, but they make a special exception to using that basis to defend such a completely irrational concept as a monopoly form of government.


lotsa good stuff in there, but a coupla fallacies I want to point out.
1. I don't believe any government has ever been or maybe (probably?) will ever simply be a rational, objective arbiter. I was pointing out that, in principle, that's the ideal form of government.
2. You assume I'm voting for a one-size-fits-all forced system. I believe any organization that sets rules for a group is a government. Voluntary association is actually ideal in my mind. For example, if you work for Company and Jim fucks with you, you don't necessarily go beat the shit out of Jim. You tell your boss.  I have personally seen people fired, have their pay garnished, or even have security (police or private) called on them.
Hell, minarchy doesn't even require one single government.  A good example of a minarchist system without a central head would be Xeer in Somalia. I'm no expert on it, but it seems pretty cool from what I've read of it.
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Skibicki

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 07:09:00 PM »

106. FIFTH PRINCIPLE. People do not consciously and rationally choose the form of their society. Societies develop through processes of social evolution that are not under rational human control.
Blackie you're doing a heck of job. I have Nothing to say except this. "I gave up on my species." - George Carlin  :P
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 07:29:24 PM by Skibicki »
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blackie

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 08:30:53 PM »

  Is there any such thing as an In The System Anarchist?
That is like a meat eating vegan.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2011, 11:32:28 AM »

  Is there any such thing as an In The System Anarchist?
That is like a meat eating vegan.
No.  It's Denis Goddard.
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BonerJoe

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2011, 11:35:31 AM »

Minarchism is only practical to create islands of liberty in an ocean of Statism.

In other words, elect anarchists to government positions of a political region (town, city, county) when you have a majority of voters. Repeal all the local laws you can. Hire a local cop that does nothing. They are just there as "legal" placeholders to keep things "official".

If you are too hardcore to comprehend that as a workable compromise, well fuck you.

Why would an Anarchist run for election in a gubmint that shouldn't exist?  Is there any such thing as an In The System Anarchist?

Sigh.
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Pizzly

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2011, 01:34:20 PM »

Minarchism is only practical to create islands of liberty in an ocean of Statism.

In other words, elect anarchists to government positions of a political region (town, city, county) when you have a majority of voters. Repeal all the local laws you can. Hire a local cop that does nothing. They are just there as "legal" placeholders to keep things "official".

If you are too hardcore to comprehend that as a workable compromise, well fuck you.
  Is there any such thing as an In The System Anarchist?
Quote
That is like a meat eating vegan.
Minarchism is only practical to create islands of liberty in an ocean of Statism.

In other words, elect anarchists to government positions of a political region (town, city, county) when you have a majority of voters. Repeal all the local laws you can. Hire a local cop that does nothing. They are just there as "legal" placeholders to keep things "official".

If you are too hardcore to comprehend that as a workable compromise, well fuck you.

Why would an Anarchist run for election in a gubmint that shouldn't exist?  Is there any such thing as an In The System Anarchist?

Sigh.


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SeanD

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2011, 05:10:43 PM »

Minarchism is only practical to create islands of liberty in an ocean of Statism.

In other words, elect anarchists to government positions of a political region (town, city, county) when you have a majority of voters. Repeal all the local laws you can. Hire a local cop that does nothing. They are just there as "legal" placeholders to keep things "official".

If you are too hardcore to comprehend that as a workable compromise, well fuck you.

Why would an Anarchist run for election in a gubmint that shouldn't exist?  Is there any such thing as an In The System Anarchist?

Sigh.

Joe I'm not trying to be a Pricktard.  I am honestly asking since my understanding is that anarchists want No Gubmint.  Why would they try to join a system that should not exist in their eyes?
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Andy

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2011, 04:26:38 AM »

How about because it's (some of  the) things the government does that make it bad. Stopping those things is what's relevant not the existence of an organisation called government.

dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2011, 08:51:43 AM »

How about because it's (some of  the) things the government does that make it bad. Stopping those things is what's relevant not the existence of an organisation called government.

Right, and it's only one thing that needs to be stopped-- its violently-imposed monopolization tactics.  That's what makes it so unaccountable and therefore inherently corrupt.

SeanD

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2011, 11:41:48 PM »

Right but that sounds Minarchistic.  Government still exists but much much smaller and not violent.
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dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2011, 12:07:45 AM »

Right but that sounds Minarchistic.  Government still exists but much much smaller and not violent.

If it's not a monopoly, then it's just one among many things existing in a free market.  It's not an organization trying to proclaim special status over others.  You can call that minarchy if you want.  I wouldn't.  We'd just be arguing over semantics at that point.

SeanD

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2011, 03:59:03 AM »

I'm not trying to play semantic games or troll.  I'm trying to figure this out.  The words are bandied about pretty freely here and I'm trying to figure out where lay the lines.  I thought Anarchists believed in NO Gubmint.  Minarchists (or Mini Statists as you refer to them) want minimal Gubmint.  As good an idea as Anarchy may sound I don't see how it will not devolve in chaos if the government implodes as not everyone will agree to the NAP.  Lead and saltpeter will be worth far more than gold and silver.

Why would a true Anarchist participate in a system he/she doesn't believe in to run for office.  Even if it were to destroy it from within he/she would have to be a totally closeted anarchist to have any chance of winning.
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freeAgent

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2011, 08:25:59 AM »

I don't think minarchists are crazy.  I would call myself one.  Ecolitarian's description of why you can't define a "legal basis" for government is correct.  The word legal only has meaning given the existence of government.

It's been a while since there's been a good minarchist/anarchist throwdown on this BBS, so I'm not sure I want to jump into the fray as I have a lot less time to post here than I used to.  Anyway, the reason I believe in a small government is that there are certain "rights" or rights-like concepts that I believe need the protection of a government organization to exist.  There are definitely people in this world who don't subscribe to the NAP, and I think they would cause anarchy to break down.
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dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2011, 10:07:28 AM »

I'm not trying to play semantic games or troll.

I didn't say you were.  I just pointed out what appeared (at the time) to just be a difference of definitions and so no point in arguing over it.

Quote
I thought Anarchists believed in NO Gubmint.

What "anarchists" varies a lot because that word means different things to different people.  So does the word "government".  A free market anarchist would have no problem with an organization that fulfills the roles governments are currently filling as long as it operates freely in the market and doesn't attempt a violent monopoly.  Such an organization might be referred to as a government by many people based on the services it provides (like protection mainly) but it usually wouldn't be called a state.

Quote
Minarchists (or Mini Statists as you refer to them) want minimal Gubmint.  As good an idea as Anarchy may sound I don't see how it will not devolve in chaos if the government implodes as not everyone will agree to the NAP.  Lead and saltpeter will be worth far more than gold and silver.

You just reminded me why I don't have any enthusiasm for these discussions.  It's been long enough that I forgot how people in Internet debates ignore things you've already addressed and you just keep repeating yourself.  I thought about just answering such things by quoting myself from earlier and I think I've actually tried that tactic before to see if people realize how much they're failing to address points already made (and if they do realize, they're trolling) and it didn't work so I'll just try to summarize a couple points before I get burnout and give up on this thread.

* Monopoly governments don't prevent the violence you're so afraid of.  They just monopolize it and commit crime for more extensively and effectively than the more traditional notion of criminals.
* The fact that you feel a need for an entity that will use violence objectively and honorably only to protect rights doesn't change that fact.  The existence of a need does not mean such an organization can exist while remaining an unaccountable monopoly (unaccountable because minarchists insist it must be a monopoly).  No amount of magic scrolls (constitutions) or internalized checks and balances on itself are going to compete with the checks and balances of the free market.  An "accountable monopoly" is an oxymoron.  Even factions warring for control represent more choice and checks and balances on each other versus and single supreme criminal organization which is the real chaos that any mini-state must devolve into by its' unaccountable nature.

Quote
Why would a true Anarchist participate in a system he/she doesn't believe in to run for office.  Even if it were to destroy it from within he/she would have to be a totally closeted anarchist to have any chance of winning.

Someone who actually has faith in that tactic can try to answer that question.

dalebert

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Re: Minarchists are fucking crazy.
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2011, 10:21:42 AM »

...there are certain "rights" or rights-like concepts that I believe need the protection of a government organization to exist.

The need is irrelevent to whether or not a mini-state can ever be as accountable as an organization operating within the checks and balances of a free market.  The State is the perfect solution for protecting rights just as Heaven is the perfect solution for death, but I will reject the State in favor of the messy process of trying lots of different scientific approaches for fighting crime and protecting rights, despite the inevitable imperfection of reality-based solutions.

Quote
There are definitely people in this world who don't subscribe to the NAP, and I think they would cause anarchy to break down.

That's the source of all crime, whether it's more traditional notions of crime or the much more effective statist kind that uses generations of brain-washing to convince people not to resist.  The lack of belief in the NAP is also the reason all mini-states break down into gigantic states.  A mini-state is built on a consistent violation of the NAP by one supreme monopoly criminal organization.  Just like death, minimizing crime and protecting rights is a massive and complex problem.  Mini-statists are addicted to the false sense of security offered by the delusional silver-bullet solution of a State, just as many superstitious folk are addicted to the false sense of security offered by Heaven.
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