Martial Law, diffusing the State, violence, ScottBigot/Vs. Gene the Xtian

[soahc]

First off I woujld like to thank our hosts for subjecting us to a nice long phone conversation with Scott the bigot, much longer than I have ever heard Gene kept on the line, (despite Gene having a really well thought out philosophical stance on anarchy, aggression, etc.) You guys really perplex me about this, and I am going to tell you how it seems at face value: you are intimidated by Gene's bulletproof anarchistic theories about the use of force, property rights, etc.

I have a question. If martial law became a reality, would you consider picking up a Molotov cocktail? Or would your non aggression axiom still apply? Moreover, how are you defining aggression? Because every time a cop pulls me over, seems like an act of aggression to me. They do have a gun after all, and if you do not comply, they will shoot you. Is threatening to shoot you not an act of aggression?

You guys talk about non-violent means of ridding the State of its power, yet you pay taxes, enjoy the fruits of a FCC granted air-wave monopoly, and vote (at any level, city, state, federal).

Is that really revolutionary? How is that really going to change things?

Here is the three point (initially non-violent) plan that I advocate:

1. Stop paying taxes. If you are wealthy, hire lawyers and accountants to help you with this. Become a perpetual traveler. Offshore accounts. Whatever. just don't give it to the State. If you are not wealthy, get your income low enough to claim exempt. Or find any other number of ways to avoid paying any or most of your taxes.

If you guys are paying property tax, you support the State. No matter how much you balk at the State on your radio show, you are a Statist, as I define it, if you pay the State. Even being a welfare recipient (as much as I don't like them), neutralizes and drains the State more than what you are doing.

We need to take drastic measures. If you think easing our way out of this pickle is going do be done by voting the right politicians in you are probably wrong, considering voting has gotten us nowhere good so far. From the dawn of 'democracy' voting has been a disaster, yet you are so sure that now all of a sudden it is going to bring about wonderous positive change and liberty? The deck is not stacked in your favor on this.

2. STOP VOTING. Voter turnout hovers between 50 and 60% (for federal elections). Let's get this below 50 consistently and then down from there when people start to catch on.

If you vote, you are just playing the same game that has been going since day one. Are you denying power corrupts? Because to me that seems like what you are saying. You seem to say "Power won't corrupt the 'liberty minded' politicians WE get in office."

3. Arm yourselves, train to use your weapons, and prepare to defend your homes and families. Because when they don't have votes, and they don't have tax dollars, perhaps they are going to pay martial law mercenaries with the world's largest surplus of gold they have monopolized in the the Federal Reserve and Fort Knox. An armed population is a deterrent to this.

There a host of things one can do to deflate the State, but what we need are drastic measures, and I have detailed some of them that probably fit under FTL's definition of 'non-aggression'. But voting and paying taxes will change nothing. And frankly it doesn't take a lot of guts. I think people who want the world to change but expect some 'liberty minded politician' (funded with tax dollars extracted under threat of force) to do all the changing are cowards. You don't have the gall to step up to plate and start swinging.

Typically the people that are so against the use of force are ones that come from the bourgeoisie. For people who violence is a daily reality, like the Panthers knew, the phrase 'might makes right' is very much the rule of the day. And if you are voting and paying taxes, you are supporting and funding the biggest gang around, which does nothing to enact real change.

I will donate money to Ron Paul's campaign, but I will never vote, for him or anyone else, at any level of government. Government is force, and all votes are acts of aggression.

[Corey "Cizzle" Moore]

Do you not think what they do with the show isn't helping the movement?  Sometimes we must do things we don't like for the sake of being able to continue to spread the message, like paying taxes and in the case of FTL, being on FCC stations.  I'll agree with you on the voting, but sometimes I do break that myself to vote against tax increases and anything else that would create a more, intrusive government.

[soahc]

Corey, i would like to think FTL helps the movement, but I am burdened with the awareness that there is nothing in history that government has done that has helped human kind. We need to stop supporting them. I think the hosts of FTL are comfortable white bourgeoisie who essentially are devoid of the courage to make the logical conclusion that any support for the State in taxes and votes is support for an entity that uses threat of force as it's method of maintaining power. A vote is an aggression, and filing taxes is an aggression, because the State IS aggression. Whether it is big or small, it will use guns to monopolize its power.

[soahc]

FTL advocates voting the 'right' politicians into office.

I advocate not voting.

FTL essentially advocates paying taxes, as I assume they do and I have never heard them do a thorough show in support of tax evaders/resisters.

I advocate the cessation of all tax payments.

Which do you think will get us liberty quicker?

People who own houses and have families and are pretty comfortable in life easily fall prey to the idea that we can gradually change our world in relation to government. But that is the foundation of all government, that we can gradually change things. And look at where the voters and tax payers have gotten us now? Has it worked so far? Or maybe we need something more drastic than trying to 'get the right people into office'?

[Andy]

FTL essentially advocates paying taxes, as I assume they do and I have never heard them do a thorough show in support of tax evaders/resisters.

Um. Something might have changed but last time I heard Ian didn't pay federal taxes and was trying to gather a group to resist property taxes with him.

[davann]

If you guys are paying property tax, you support the State. No matter how much you balk at the State on your radio show, you are a Statist, as I define it, if you pay the State.

I believe you might want to listen a little more closely for a while longer. Also, I bet your parents are paying property taxes on the home that has the basement you live in. So, by your thinking, are you a statist by proxy?
 

[anarchir]

If you guys are paying property tax, you support the State. No matter how much you balk at the State on your radio show, you are a Statist, as I define it, if you pay the State.

I believe you might want to listen a little more closely for a while longer. Also, I bet your parents are paying property taxes on the home that has the basement you live in. So, by your thinking, are you a statist by proxy?
 

It is next to impossible for most people to quickly stop paying any taxes at all, just ask Libman and he'll tell you how difficult of a task it is.