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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Pizzly on July 22, 2011, 12:59:27 AM
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The use of vaccinations results in the emergence of vaccine resistant viruses, so shouldn't only those who are at risk vaccinate themselves? And aren't the single best people capable of determining who is at risk the individuals who themselves are getting the vaccination, not a socialistic entity? Also, herd immunity is important, but generally those who are at risk are in a situation where mandatory vaccinations are given as an employment requirement (thus voluntary).
Thoughts?
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Insteadwe should just infect the whole population with these diseases and let the strong survive :-/
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Implying the dark ages had the same rules as now, as far as disease and individual personal choices go, is a non starter to any thinking person.
If the government feels a need to use force to implement it, it is suspicious and probably not honest, always and forever.
In my 41 years I have had to use aggression against stupid doctors trying to do stupid things, with Friends and family, numerous times. I do not trust them in general.
Doctors are generally arrogant and will not listen a mere fabricator, you know a guy who takes raw materials and invents on the fly to make a functioning machine. (funny story, Once when a Doctor was being silly and getting a reality check, he asked what I did and I pointed to a little mount I had built installed in the room and said "that.")
Luckily I was born with the tools to get my way in most situations. The doctors tried twice to take these tools away from the young Al.
Once in the late 60's. They wanted to feed my 19 year old mother a medicine to help with morning sickness. For some reason she didn't. Many of my peers were later used as study on the different stages of fetal development because they were missing or had underdeveloped body parts because their mothers took said medicine at different stages of pregnancy.
Later I was diagnosed for a early unnamed version of ADHD and had to take happy pills for about a year before my Dad told them to fuck off.
Vaccinations sure as fuck might be harmful. And BTW Admiral, doctors haven't gotten more honest and accountable with time and being in bed with the government.
In fact, some of the most evil fucks of the 20th century were doctors historically. If you ask "Who was truly evil in history?" the answer will be a leader, politician or a doctor. Why would I give voluntary card blanc power to anyone from those groups, let alone a combination of them?
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I've had all the standard vaccinations and I feel fine and wasn't turned autistic, either. You have no idea what kids are going to be more or less at risk. I've also never heard of vaccine-resistant viruses. I have heard of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, but that's different. The more people who are not vaccinated, the more hosts for virus x or y there are, and that can lead to an epidemic...at least among the unvaccinated folks. If/when I have kids, I'm sure as hell going to vaccinate them whether or not the government wants me to do so or not.
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I am not saying that I am all knowing or that I would stop you from making the choices you want to make, or even that I disallowed myself or my children to receive inoculations. What I am saying is it is up to me what someone sticks in my or a member of my families body. I also am stating for the record that both doctors and politicians are capable of evil and shouldn't be trusted with supreme power who gets what stuck in their veins.
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If you want a vaccine, get one. If you dont, dont get one.
Thats the king's rule. My rule.
If you dont get one and you infect someone with a virus, well, that person should have gotten the vaccination to protect them from getting your virus.
Autism? Maybe. The rate of autism has skyrocketed in developed countries. It might be from vaccinations or it might be from the shit they put in the food. Who knows. All I know is something is causing it that wasn't there before.
Amish people never get autism. Amish people dont get vaccines. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.
I myself will not get a vaccination. Too much weird shit we dont know about them as far as long term effects go.
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There was a study that came out recently that found that people who work in tech/science have kids with autism at a much higher rate than those outside those fields. It could definitely be genetic in nature, with "geeky" people being more likely to carry some sort of autism gene(s). When they mate, the chance of having autistic kids increases. Of course, the difference was something like 0.8% compared to 0.2%.
I also wouldn't want to force anyone to vaccinate his or her children. If you don't attend public school, is vaccination required now?
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To be allowed to go to school? Hell it was that way back in the 80's when I was in school.
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I never had to get one.
I remember lots of other kids my age that had these circle scars on their arms from the booster shots. I never had that.
I'm a vac-virgin.
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My parents were really young and easily fooled by bureaucrats. I remember one letter we got and I was off to the clinic. Could be that they caved really easy.
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To be allowed to go to school? Hell it was that way back in the 80's when I was in school.
My question was whether or not vaccinations are required for children who don't go to public school. I'm pretty sure they aren't. I think the vaccination requirements at various school districts vary by state as well.
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I abhor the title of this thread. "Mandatory vaccinations may be harmful." This is a clear cut example of something the anti-vaccination crowd will do to trick people into supporting them. "Vaccinations may be harmful" does not mean "Mandatory vaccinations may be harmful. " I am against --mandatory-- vaccination, but FOR vaccination.
Also, anyone who is claiming that vaccines cause autism is an idiot or a liar. There is ZERO evidence to support that.
Correlation doesnt imply causation.
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I abhor the title of this thread. "Mandatory vaccinations may be harmful." This is a clear cut example of something the anti-vaccination crowd will do to trick people into supporting them. "Vaccinations may be harmful" does not mean "Mandatory vaccinations may be harmful. " I am against --mandatory-- vaccination, but FOR vaccination.
Also, anyone who is claiming that vaccines cause autism is an idiot or a liar. There is ZERO evidence to support that.
Correlation doesnt imply causation.
Agreed on every point. I made the post after a long, very frustrating argument on reddit where any moral argumentation was rejected (leaving me with this excuse for an argument), so I probably chose a bad title.
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I would in no way imply that it is vaccinations that cause higher rates of autism.
I would say that SOMETHING is causing it, wouldn't you agree? I mean, it didn't just happen out of nowhere, for no reason, right?
Lets say, just for the sake of argument that the higher rates of autism could be directly traced back to preservatives in food that are so prevailent nowadays. Do you think anyone in the industry would come out and admit that fact? Do you think they would just scrap the whole food preservative industry overnight and stand to lose trillions of dollars in high volume, low production cost food? I dont think so. Imagine the chaos that would ensue.
So basically, what im saying, is that whatever the cause, you and I aren't likely to find out why. Not anytime soon. Even if it were the vaccines.
Not much has changed in our lifestyles over the last 50 yrs besides the food, the vaccinations and maybe a few other minor things like amounts of exercise we get on a daily basis. Seems to me that one of those things is the culprit, unless of course im missing something in the equation, and for someone to say "theres no proof of that" is just being a little bit naive in my opinion. Even if there were proof, you would never know about it.
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The autism-vaccine thing is bullshit. I honestly don't know how people can believe that crap.
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Fine, but how do YOU know its bullshit?
Are you a biologist? Whats your background on the subject?
I'm not making claims either way on it, because I have no idea. Its not my area of expertise. Just funny when people claim something is bullshit when they really have no knowledge on the subject at hand, cept maybe a few college courses or something of that nature.
I guess the main reason im so skeptical of medical claims, is because I have two friends, husband and wife, both doctors, one an oncologist and the other a neurosurgeon. I cant even begin to tell you how many times I've heard out of both of their mouths "yeah, this new drug blah blah blah seems promising, nothing dangerous about it" Then, after the recall "Yeah, they found out it causes this blah blah blah..... pretty bad stuff", and im like "you just said two months ago that it was a miracle drug" they just roll their eyes off to the side as if to say "yeah yeah, I know, its all bullshit, we just spew what the pamphlets tell us"
Everyones an expert, till they're proven wrong.
Thats all im saying.
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Fine, but how do YOU know its bullshit?
Are you a biologist? Whats your background on the subject?
I'm not making claims either way on it, because I have no idea. Its not my area of expertise. Just funny when people claim something is bullshit when they really have no knowledge on the subject at hand, cept maybe a few college courses or something of that nature.
I guess the main reason im so skeptical of medical claims, is because I have two friends, husband and wife, both doctors, one an oncologist and the other a neurosurgeon. I cant even begin to tell you how many times I've heard out of both of their mouths "yeah, this new drug blah blah blah seems promising, nothing dangerous about it" Then, after the recall "Yeah, they found out it causes this blah blah blah..... pretty bad stuff", and im like "you just said two months ago that it was a miracle drug" they just roll their eyes off to the side as if to say "yeah yeah, I know, its all bullshit, we just spew what the pamphlets tell us"
Everyones an expert, till they're proven wrong.
Thats all im saying.
I am. and I used to make vaccines. The claims are bullshit. Vaccines are generally a very good thing. I don't think they should be mandatory, and I'm not a fan of the flu shot. But I have a load of other vaccines, more than I can count and do not regret any of them.
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The autism-vaccine thing is bullshit. I honestly don't know how people can believe that crap.
Because many of us have seen toddlers, that were happy and outgoing, get some shot and suddenly be autistic.
OK?
I follow the rule that personnel experience and observation trump what someone in a labcoat says when I make decisions.
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The autism-vaccine thing is bullshit. I honestly don't know how people can believe that crap.
Because many of us have seen toddlers, that were happy and outgoing, get some shot and suddenly be autistic.
OK?
I follow the rule that personnel experience and observation trump what someone in a labcoat says when I make decisions.
I dont even think we actually have higher autism rates. The reason why more are diagnosed as such is because they changed the criteria for being in the "Autism" category. Did you know they consider "asbergers" as a part of autism?
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Not much has changed in our lifestyles over the last 50 yrs
wut
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Would it be a good thing if everyone lived forever?
No!
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Not much has changed in our lifestyles over the last 50 yrs
wut
Seriously, besides the way we communicate, high tech gadgets and all that stuff, whats really changed?
Cars still run on gasoline, we dont have flying cars yet, surgery still involves cutting you open, govt still screws ya.
Basically the same shit in a different package.
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The autism-vaccine thing is bullshit. I honestly don't know how people can believe that crap.
Because many of us have seen toddlers, that were happy and outgoing, get some shot and suddenly be autistic.
OK?
I follow the rule that personnel experience and observation trump what someone in a labcoat says when I make decisions.
Lots of mental diseases only show up in people at certain ages. Autism will hit at around 7, depression at 12, schizophrenia at 20.
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Wrong, autism is noticeable in toddlers.
Are all the pro- vaccination people denying that chemicals have no adverse effects on the human brain?
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Wrong, autism is noticeable in toddlers.
Are all the pro- vaccination people denying that chemicals have no adverse effects on the human brain?
Wouldn't matter if it were true imho.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/08/30/penn-and-teller-take-on-vaccines/ (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/08/30/penn-and-teller-take-on-vaccines/)
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Thanks to a vaccination I got before desert storm my seminal fluid could cut steel. It finally stopped after ten years or so.
You can link all you want I don't blindly believe anything, I go by shit I see and notice and hold my own opinion.
I don't like to be fucked with anyway here are a few of my own links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide)
It will be a cold day in hell before I follow any other opinion then my own about doctors.
You want to blindly trust authority of any kind go right ahead.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)
:( Killed by blind allegiance to ancient jewish superstitions. I expect he's gonna feel a lot better now that they've found that gold bell.
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Thanks to a vaccination I got before desert storm my seminal fluid could cut steel. It finally stopped after ten years or so.
You can link all you want I don't blindly believe anything, I go by shit I see and notice and hold my own opinion.
I don't like to be fucked with anyway here are a few of my own links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide)
It will be a cold day in hell before I follow any other opinion then my own about doctors.
You want to blindly trust authority of any kind go right ahead.
Thalidomide. The biggest cause of flipper babies. There was only so much doctors knew back then.
And, sorry about what happened to your daughters friends. I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to console a child on the death of their friends.
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Lot of cross thread posting today, but you didn't start it. 8)
When I first heard David Reimers story I saw it on Discovery in the mid 90s. David was still alive and absolutely hated the doctor who told his parents to raise him as a girl, John Money. The documentary was actually a positive view of Dr. Money, you see at the time the experts thought boys and girls were the same. David's story was mentioned in passing as a rebuttal. I remember a short time later hearing about his suicide.
There is only so much doctors know now. As private medicine gets more and more rare, and all accountability vanishes doctors will know less and become more arrogant and dangerous. All I am saying is if you or yours are on the block don't blindly follow. Good advice when dealing with anybody I would think.
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Lot of cross thread posting today, but you didn't start it. 8)
When I first heard David Reimers story I saw it on Discovery in the mid 90s. David was still alive and absolutely hated the doctor who told his parents to raise him as a girl, John Money. The documentary was actually a positive view of Dr. Money, you see at the time the experts thought boys and girls were the same. David's story was mentioned in passing as a rebuttal. I remember a short time later hearing about his suicide.
There is only so much doctors know now. As private medicine gets more and more rare, and all accountability vanishes doctors will know less and become more arrogant and dangerous. All I am saying is if you or yours are on the block don't blindly follow. Good advice when dealing with anybody I would think.
And what if you ARE the doctor?
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About choosing shots? A doctor would have the evidence right in front of him. He would have better knowledge on which to make his decisions for his own body and others under his responsibility and could act accordingly. I don't have that, but ultimately we would base our decisions on the same thing- knowledge and trust.
I think we would agree that many doctors put patients through things they wouldn't do to themselves.
If you mean what would I do as a doctor? Move to NH get a hospital job and rock agorism through fr33aid on the side.
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About choosing shots? A doctor would have the evidence right in front of him. He would have better knowledge on which to make his decisions for his own body and others under his responsibility and could act accordingly. I don't have that, but ultimately we would base our decisions on the same thing- knowledge and trust.
I think we would agree that many doctors put patients through things they wouldn't do to themselves.
If you mean what would I do as a doctor? Move to NH get a hospital job and rock agorism through fr33aid on the side.
so doctors who have the evidence right In frontof them and the knowledge gained from years of study and choose to vaccinate are wrong yet the common man who chooses not to vaccinate with none of that is right?
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About choosing shots? A doctor would have the evidence right in front of him. He would have better knowledge on which to make his decisions for his own body and others under his responsibility and could act accordingly. I don't have that, but ultimately we would base our decisions on the same thing- knowledge and trust.
I think we would agree that many doctors put patients through things they wouldn't do to themselves.
If you mean what would I do as a doctor? Move to NH get a hospital job and rock agorism through fr33aid on the side.
You're just being stubborn...
Claiming that one shot made your sperm hard (?!)(hot?) is not rational in the context given. Relying on anecdotal evidence to make a scientific claim is not rational. You don't seem to be very rational on this subject. You want to prove a positive claim, you post positive correlation as well a good reason to believe causation. For example. If there were a 1-to-1 rise in #vaccines given vs. cases of autism, I'd consider that strong evidence. As it is, you have no scientific studies (maybe there's an attempt in one of those links?), no positive correlation, and other variables (changing of diagnosis procedures, broadening category, steady decline in personal interaction, changing diet) that deserve an equal look.
The fact is that a vast majority of vaccines have demonstrated a tremendous benefit and I currently have no reason to go cold turkey on them.
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so doctors who have the evidence right In frontof them and the knowledge gained from years of study and choose to vaccinate are wrong yet the common man who chooses not to vaccinate with none of that is right?
I think you're confusing doctors with the lab scientists who create the drugs themselves. Your average family doctor knows very little about the intricacies of the ingredients that go into the drugs they are pushed to prescribe. Sure, they know the basics of how a particular ingredient in the drug is used to get a desired effect, but thats about as far as it goes. I know quite a few doctors on a personal level, ranging from family practice, to specialized care............... they all pretty much confirm this, every one of them.
Heres a list of drugs that were pulled from the market that "doctors" though were ok, until they were later found to have ill effects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
Im not saying vaccines do, or do not belong on this list, but to say "doctors are experts" is laughable. They are told the basics about the drug, they go to AMA conferences and listen to lectures, but thats about as far as it goes. If they are told something is good, they prescribe it. They dont ask questions.......... until they are told it is no good anymore.
Actually, a pharmacist knows more about drugs than the average doctor does.
Im not making this shit up. Doctors tell me this.
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To Admiral Gunn:
Yes a doctor is wrong if he tries to force me to inject stuff in my body.
He can vaccinate himself all he wants, furthermore he can advise me to do the same. It is the force that is the issue.
Notice I didn't bother to link to some REAL sumbitch doctors, who really dug that force thing, I assume you know about them boys.
To LT:
Actually, I found some compelling evidence to vaccinate myself, just didn't post a link. My argument are not against vaccines. It is that I think one should decide themselves if they are going to get one or not. As for my own son I simply held off til we were sure he wasn't autistic and I decided he was mentally strong enough that some weird chemical wouldn't hurt him permanantly. He was around 4 I think.
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To Admiral Gunn:
Yes a doctor is wrong if he tries to force me to inject stuff in my body.
He can vaccinate himself all he wants, furthermore he can advise me to do the same. It is the force that is the issue.
Notice I didn't bother to link to some REAL sumbitch doctors, who really dug that force thing, I assume you know about them boys.
To LT:
Actually, I found some compelling evidence to vaccinate myself, just didn't post a link. My argument are not against vaccines. It is that I think one should decide themselves if they are going to get one or not. As for my own son I simply held off til we were sure he wasn't autistic and I decided he was mentally strong enough that some weird chemical wouldn't hurt him permanantly. He was around 4 I think.
OK, well, I got no gripe with you then...
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so doctors who have the evidence right In frontof them and the knowledge gained from years of study and choose to vaccinate are wrong yet the common man who chooses not to vaccinate with none of that is right?
I think you're confusing doctors with the lab scientists who create the drugs themselves. Your average family doctor knows very little about the intricacies of the ingredients that go into the drugs they are pushed to prescribe. Sure, they know the basics of how a particular ingredient in the drug is used to get a desired effect, but thats about as far as it goes. I know quite a few doctors on a personal level, ranging from family practice, to specialized care............... they all pretty much confirm this, every one of them.
Heres a list of drugs that were pulled from the market that "doctors" though were ok, until they were later found to have ill effects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
Im not saying vaccines do, or do not belong on this list, but to say "doctors are experts" is laughable. They are told the basics about the drug, they go to AMA conferences and listen to lectures, but thats about as far as it goes. If they are told something is good, they prescribe it. They dont ask questions.......... until they are told it is no good anymore.
Actually, a pharmacist knows more about drugs than the average doctor does.
Im not making this shit up. Doctors tell me this.
Guess who has several years of laboratory experience on both ends, making, and distributing vaccines and other medical stuff.
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And anyone on this forum should know that most people here don't support government mandatory anything, including me. But I would prefer to send my children to a private school that had mandatory vaccinations for entrance.
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Guess who has several years of laboratory experience on both ends, making, and distributing vaccines and other medical stuff.
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That may be so, but it doesn't change anything im saying here. Im talking about the average family practitioner. They diagnose a problem, prescribe the drug that they are advised to do, and thats that.
I've never heard one say "Ya know, that drug they took off the market because of its deadly side effects?, I warned them, but nobody listened!!"
No, they just do what they're told........ until further notice.
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Sure was a whole lot of arguing over agreement on this thread.
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Sure was a whole lot of arguing over agreement on this thread.
I disagree
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Sure was a whole lot of arguing over agreement on this thread.
I disagree
Yer mama.
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Sure was a whole lot of arguing over agreement on this thread.
I disagree
Yer mama.
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/quickmike1969_photo/2689762759_6495973e61.jpg?t=1311814757)
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So that's why she didn't move much.
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Sure was a whole lot of arguing over agreement on this thread.
I disagree
Yer mama.
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/quickmike1969_photo/2689762759_6495973e61.jpg?t=1311814757)
That doesn't mean you didn't do her, you dirty dirty little man.