The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: FTL_Ian on March 16, 2006, 10:55:12 PM
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What we talked about tonight:
About two years ago a judge/lawyer friend of mine told me that if I'm pulled over after drinking and driving, all the evidence they have against me is what I have given them. That is the smell test, balance test, eye coordination test, breathalizer test, etc. In Missouri we have what's called implied consent: When you get your license it is assumed by the state that you have consented to a drunk test - if you 'refuse' to take the test then your license can be yanked right there for up to a year.
So I began carrying a small piece of paper that I give the officer that pulls me over - for whatever reason - that states the following:
"As an American Citizen, I have the right to remain silent. Please don't take this personal; it's merely an exercise of my rights. I also reserve the right against self-incrimination and request my lawyer(s) be present for any questioning. My attorneys are (Lawyer Name) and/or (Lawyer Name) at xxx.xxx.xxxx. If I am out of the state of Missouri, I hereby request a directory of local attorneys to choose counsel."
Since I started keeping that little sweetie in my pocket I've used it each time I'm pulled over - which around here and given that I'm a bit of a hell-raiser amounted to 5 or 6 times. Each time, the officer took the paper and license from me, went back to his car, came back angry and told me to go away. One time I was in a motorcycle accident and had a lady on the back. We'd both had a few, but weren't really intoxicated however we still smelled of beer. We were both transported to ER and while I was being administered to the officer went through my wallet - finding the little piece of paper on top of my license. He couldn't question me or obtain evidence so he gave me a ticket for not having my insurance ID in my wallet and told me, "This is your lucky day".
Actually, my lucky day was when I made that little card up and began carrying it. It also must work for speeding and firing a handgun within the city limits, cuz the same thing happened.
I do not advocate anyone breaking the law but I don't believe in the so called "implied consent" laws or that driving is a privilege.'
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Messing with the cops can be hazardous to your health.
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I don't buy it.
I can't see it going down that smooth. The story read like something from Playboy Letters, not True Crime.
--BEB
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I suspect that the right to remain silent bit is only for after you have been arrested.
Just a guess.
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Plus as Manwich stated on Wednesday night's show, cops now-a-days are just way too trigger happy.
Think of that army MP (I think it was army) who just got back and was shot 3 times. He was following the direct instructions and complying with EVERYTHING the officer was saying. I addition, he was stating to the officer exactly what he was doing.
Officer: Get up!
Victim: Okay, I am getting up.
*BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM*
And about this case...why did the cop have his gun out anyway?
Think of the handicapped kid that was shot to death. He was shot because the office THOUGHT he was an escaped prisoner. What a great excuse for these violent bastards to start using.
Although I like the idea of the note, I would be afraid for being shot for any reason they want to make up.
-Windquake
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That's true, but it's better than just saying ok to everything and taking it up the behind. If we don't start standing up to these cunt-buckets who will?
Agreed, but I'd rather stand up to them when someone else is there, and preferably with a video camera.
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When I read the camera bit - it brought to mind something that was in the news a few years back.
Don't know if it was local or national, but....
A cop pulls someone over, they decide that since their conversation is recorded by the cops for "their protection", the driver would notify the cop that he was doing the same. The cop objected and it just wend downhill from there for the driver.
I don't think the note would go over so smoothly. I also believe the right to remain silent bit would be after you were arrested - as it is a Miranda issue. And of course, your Miranda rights are read to you when you're busted, soooo.......
Jonathan
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I know if I were a cop and some prick handed me that shit, I'd haul him right out of that car and give him a swift kick in the balls. I'm not sure it's a good idea to fuck with the cops either. I'd rather just not fuck up at all.
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But in the right to freedom of speech, it seems like you would thus have the right to say nothing. Thus, to remain silent.
I had a similar thing in my wallet (before it got taken with my pants 1.5 years ago :( ) that listed my rights for when I was pulled over by a cop in a car, and when I was pulled over by a cop not in a car. I'm pretty sure it did say that I should do something...
But, can the cop still ask for driver license/registration if you give him the magical silent card? I would think that asking for registration and driver's license would be some form of questioning, and thus you can wait until your lawyer is with you.
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Careful -- I think assuming that cops can read is a stretch in many jurisdictions. . .
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I know if I were a cop and some prick handed me that shit, I'd haul him right out of that car and give him a swift kick in the balls. I'm not sure it's a good idea to fuck with the cops either. I'd rather just not fuck up at all.
You'll make a good women's prison warden some day.
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There is nothing in the world that will keep that note attached to your license if the cop wants it lost. There is no better glue remover than a cop's hands, then it's your word against his.
NORML has had a "Freedom Card" available for free download for years that somewhat mimics the language in the card on this post. http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3407
Caveat: No amount of printed material will save you from the cop who is having a bad day, or is just a Mike Ditka type. If there is one cop, your word about what happened is nullified by the court. If there are two cops, be prepared to produce four witnesses. If there are three, six, ad infinitum.
A tape recorder or video camera, although not irrefutable, is the most important piece of equipment in your car these days. It should come stock.
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I know if I were a cop and some prick handed me that shit, I'd haul him right out of that car and give him a swift kick in the balls. I'm not sure it's a good idea to fuck with the cops either. I'd rather just not fuck up at all.
You'll make a good women's prison warden some day.
...not really. It's funny and clever if you're not a cop, but when you're a cop and you're pulling someone over, your mission is most likely to give them a ticket and/or harass them as much as humanly possible. It's just not going to go over well with cops, and if a bunch of people started doing it, they'd just make a law against that too.
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About two years ago a judge/lawyer friend of mine told me that if I'm pulled over after drinking and driving, all the evidence they have against me is what I have given them. That is the smell test, balance test, eye coordination test, breathalizer test, etc. In Missouri we have what's called implied consent: When you get your license it is assumed by the state that you have consented to a drunk test - if you 'refuse' to take the test then your license can be yanked right there for up to a year.
It is assumed by the state that you have consented to a sobriety test because when you get your drivers license, you choose to consent. Because when someone signs something that says "I consent to a sobriety test by signing for this license", it would seem to me that the person, if he is an honest, principled person, should allow a sobriety test. If they do not want to consent to a sobriety test, they should not sign a piece of paper that says that they do.
So I began carrying a small piece of paper that I give the officer that pulls me over - for whatever reason - that states the following:
"As an American Citizen, I have the right to remain silent. Please don't take this personal; it's merely an exercise of my rights. I also reserve the right against self-incrimination and request my lawyer(s) be present for any questioning. My attorneys are (Lawyer Name) and/or (Lawyer Name) at xxx.xxx.xxxx. If I am out of the state of Missouri, I hereby request a directory of local attorneys to choose counsel."
Since I started keeping that little sweetie in my pocket I've used it each time I'm pulled over - which around here and given that I'm a bit of a hell-raiser amounted to 5 or 6 times. Each time, the officer took the paper and license from me, went back to his car, came back angry and told me to go away. One time I was in a motorcycle accident and had a lady on the back. We'd both had a few, but weren't really intoxicated however we still smelled of beer. We were both transported to ER and while I was being administered to the officer went through my wallet - finding the little piece of paper on top of my license. He couldn't question me or obtain evidence so he gave me a ticket for not having my insurance ID in my wallet and told me, "This is your lucky day".
Actually, my lucky day was when I made that little card up and began carrying it. It also must work for speeding and firing a handgun within the city limits, cuz the same thing happened.
So, within a period of two years, this guy may have been pulled over for drunk driving, has gotten pulled over five or six times for unknown other reasons, got into a wreck while intoxicated, shoots his gun around town, and tries to antogonize cops. This is a guy we should listen to.
I do not advocate anyone breaking the law but I don't believe in the so called "implied consent" laws or that driving is a privilege.'
There was no implied consent. There was explicit consent. He signed a piece of paper consenting to a sobriety test as a condition of taking the drivers license.
As for driving being a privilege, I believe one should be able to drive on a road that he or she pays taxes on without permission. Perhaps this person should compaign for his representatives in his state legislature to not require drivers licenses. Or maybe he can raise money to build his own private road ---- which, by the way, no one is prevented from doing.
Maybe he can't raise money to build he own private road or can't convince his neighbors and local and state representatives to get rid of drivers licenses because he's too busy getting drunk and driving around with a gun, starting shit with cops.
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/1/1-207.html
According to some modern Revolutionaries, unless I sign "ucc 1-207 without prejudice" after my name, I can be legally compelled under the terms of any contract to perform that which was not explained to me at the time of signing.
There are some contracts that are worth bending, breaking, and smashing to smithereens.
It's called a backbone.
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Theres no magic bullet. Your best bet is to comply with the laws, and if you break them, face the consequences. A cop is a cop is a cop, an "honest" cop will most likely pull you over for "honest" reasons, and his charges will probably stick. A redneck cop is a loose cannon, and should be treated very carefully, because they enjoy kicking people in the head. Ive argued this point before, and come to the same conclusion: Anyone who seeks employment as a cop enjoys making people squirm, on one level or another. Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule, but the exceptions arent the ones that are gonna kick your face in given the chance. You make the mistake of handing such a rediculous note to the wrong cop, and you are challenging him, look out.
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I suspect that the right to remain silent bit is only for after you have been arrested.
Just a guess.
The "right to remain silent" or "Miranda Rights," is actually only told to you by the police officer after you have been arrested.
To date there is no law that requires a person to talk to a police officer. If you do decide to talk to a police officer for whatever reason, you are doing so "voluntarily." Even on a traffic stop there's no reason for you to communicate anything to a police officer. The Supreme Court has ruled that as long as the police do not force an individual to do something, the individual is acting voluntarily, even if a normal person would feel very intimidated and would not reasonably feel they could say no.
I think the card is great! Most traffic stops are recorded and if a cop wants to talk to you, you just become a deaf mute and hand him the card.
http://www.policecrime.com/police.html
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I keep a card in my wallet stating my Weingarten Rights. Not nearly the same thing, but a card nonetheless.
It states: I am now concerned that this interview could lead to discipline, or affect my personal working conditions. So, I respectfully request that a coworker of my choice be present at this meeting. Until my coworker arrives, I choose not to participate in this discussion.
Weingarten Rights (http://homepages.uhwo.hawaii.edu/~clear/wein.html)
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Bring on the challenge! I'm not going to fuck around and pussy-weather with these fascists. If the fascist lays a finger on me, I'm going to shoot the motherfucker. I don't fuck around with this type of scum.
I am a human being, I am not a fucking slave. I rather be cold and dead then be a fucking slave.
No one has authority over me. NO ONE!
We'll miss you.
There are better ways to get even.
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Ya man, good luck with that.
Humans lost most of their defensive weapons, like sharp teeth and the big horn primitive man had on his head, over a century ago. We then doubled our brain size, and our index finger elongated, with which we can dial our lawyers number.
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Hey,
I just found the card that states my rights- though I had lost it, but I'll type it out for you guys.
Yours Rights
If you are approached by the police
(in a non-driving situation)
You should:- Be polite to the officer at all times.
- DO NOT physically resist the officer, under ANY circumstances.
- Tell the officer your name (it's a crime to give a false name).
- NEVER offer money to a police officer.
You do not have to:- Stop or talk to an officer unless you are ordered to stop.
- Show any ID like a driver's license unless you are being arrested or given a ticket.
- Consent to any search or seizure. If the officer threatens to get a warrant, let the officer get one. If the officer seaarches you without a warrant, do not resist, but say that you do not consent to the search.
You do not have to:- Talk to the police without a lawyer present, even if you have been arrested or ticketed.
- Stay unless you are being ticketed or arrested. If you are not sure whether you are being ticketed or arrested, ask the officer if you are free to leave.
- Go anywhere with the office unless you have been arrested.
Be peaceful at all times!
This information prepared by the ACLU foundation of Oregon in cooperation with the Eugene-Springfield Homless Action Coalition.
Remember:- Everything you say could be used against you.
- If you want the officer to stop questioning you, ask for a lawyer. The officer must stop questioning you at that point. Don't keep talking and don't let the officer talk you out of wanting a lawyer.
- You may ask the officer for his/her badge number.
So not in driving situations, but this is still good to know.
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Having done quite a bit of legal transcription, I am sadly dissapointed at how many cases turn into he says (the cop), she says (the citizen) especially as relates to permission to search. Based on this informaiton, I have sent myself (via USPS) a signed, dated letter (which I have not opened and will not open unless needed) that states:
"This letter is to certify (for whatever purpose it may become necessary) that absent a signed, written statement to the contrary, I, (my name), do not give my consent to any search of my person, my home, my vehicle, or any other area that may be under my control to any individual for any reason.
"Absent a signed, written statement to the contrary, I do not waive any of my Constitutional or common law rights. Any statement by any individual that I have agreed to orally waive my rights should be considered suspect."
I also have "I do not consent to a search" stickers at each entrance to my vehicle (below openable windows, etc.) which will be supplemented with something warning of audio/video recording as soon as I've installed that equipment. I'm not sure if all this would work to overturn the natural Court bias to believe police officers over citizens, but it should at least give them some pause.
The mailing is needed to prove that the statement was written prior to the date on the postmark (so no one could claim I wrote it after the fact to cover my ass). This purpose could also be served by having it notarized, I suppose, but I think the stamp cost is still slightly cheaper than a notary.
I don't plan to go out of my way to attract police attention (though there is a little voice in me DYING to fill a small pink zip-loc with talcum powder and carry it in my sock) but I want my ass covered if their malevolent gaze shifts my way.
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I don't plan to go out of my way to attract police attention (though there is a little voice in me DYING to fill a small pink zip-loc with talcum powder and carry it in my sock) but I want my ass covered if their malevolent gaze shifts my way.
:lol: