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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: The Green Bastard on December 21, 2009, 11:44:22 AM

Title: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: The Green Bastard on December 21, 2009, 11:44:22 AM
Hey,

A caller was speaking with Ian and Mark a couple months back regarding wireless mesh networks and what he perceived would become a new version of the internet.

The idea was that individuals would use a standard, off the shelf, wireless router running modified code that would allow it to act as a node on this new wireless mesh.

In theory, if enough people/neighborhoods jumped on board in populated areas, a new, non-internet connected network would be created.

This really intrigues me, I design large indoor and outdoor wireless installs as part of my job and would like to play around taking this to the neighborhood level (and beyond as time goes by).

 I am just wondering what project the caller was referring to. Is there a current standard or group of people I can look up to do a little more research?

Thanks.

Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: BobRobertson on December 21, 2009, 02:48:47 PM
In theory, if enough people/neighborhoods jumped on board in populated areas, a new, non-internet connected network would be created.

Except for one thing: Hop Count.

Such ad-hoc networking gets inefficient very quickly.

I suggest a google, -ahem- I mean a startpage.com search for "ad-hoc mesh network".

You might also be interested in an "obsolete" technology which would see a resurgence if real-time networking gets shut down by Big Brother: Fidonet

As is usual when people bring up "what would we do without...", just look around and see what people DID without x.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on December 21, 2009, 03:18:46 PM
Google "hamgate."

Then mod an off-the-shelf Linksys router to be compatible with your ham radio, set it up.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: The Green Bastard on December 21, 2009, 06:43:49 PM
I do find packet radio intriguing due to the long ranges you can get for little cash but I don't see it being the next big thing :)

I could set a hamgate up and host ASCII art Asian porn I guess :)
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: mikehz on December 21, 2009, 06:47:21 PM
It works okay for amateur radio, but I think it would crash, or at least bog way down, once too many users climbed on board.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: KDus on December 21, 2009, 06:59:24 PM
I once got about 1000 feet with a pair of stock linksys routers. Probably could do better with those off the shelf antenna upgrades.
Ham has pretty pathetic data rates. Because of the narrow bandwidth they're "allowed" to use.
There are some cute, no license, spread spectrum radios out there that will go to at least 256k
With pro gear, we send 2Mbits: The TV guys send 20Mb
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: Bill Brasky on December 21, 2009, 08:07:57 PM
The problem with an intranet is you'd be sharing whats inside the net, right?

I'm pretty sure I don't give a shit about one single person in a thirty mile radius, since I have trouble staying entertained with the entire world at my fingertips. 
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: hellbilly on December 21, 2009, 08:16:43 PM
I think I remember this call- but wasn't the idea to have an instant neighborhood alert system? I'd be keen on that too.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: Bill Brasky on December 21, 2009, 08:42:50 PM
I think I remember this call- but wasn't the idea to have an instant neighborhood alert system? I'd be keen on that too.

A civic-minded person could set this up easily with a local forum and an RSS feed.  You'd just have to keep pushing it so it didn't lapse into disuse.  Advertise local stuff on it, like garbage-day changes at the municipal level, softball sign-ups, the lunch calendar at the High School, that kind of thing.  Send the local Boy Scouts around to hook up the old folks, show 'em how it works.  They'd be wacky over it, especially once it saved a life or caught a vandal. 

Its always kinda surprised me that the 'net never really trickled down into the local stuff yet, in this manner.  I suppose it does exist in some localities, but its probably so frigging boring that it never catches fire, and we just never hear of it. 
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: spicynujac on December 21, 2009, 08:58:31 PM
Wireless mesh networks get faster, not slower, as the number of users increases, as there is more bandwidth available.  And significant work *IS* being done on this area, only it is targeted towards developing nations, not the US.  In the US, they want to sell each of us a $59.99 monthly subscription to send data, when it could be done for free through wireless mesh networking.  The most well known example of this is the One Laptop Per Child program (OLPC).  Also, a wireless mesh network could be connected to the internet, or not.  You only need a small number (even ONE) of nodes connected to the outside net.

This is a pretty good article.
http://communication.howstuffworks.com/how-wireless-mesh-networks-work.htm

Incidentally, I was having a conversation the other day about how all this fearmongering about "securing" your wireless network is really all just a scam to make people paranoid so there are no open networks so each person has to buy their own subscription.  Now, if I lived in an apt complex I wouldnt want 50 other people hogging my bandwidth, but if a few neighbors want to use it, no problem.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: BobRobertson on December 22, 2009, 09:54:27 AM
Wireless mesh networks get faster, not slower, as the number of users increases, as there is more bandwidth available.

Available, yes, but to where?

Quote
And significant work *IS* being done on this area, only it is targeted towards developing nations, not the US.  In the US, they want to sell each of us a $59.99 monthly subscription to send data, when it could be done for free through wireless mesh networking.

But not at the speeds people expect for that kind of money.

Dialup still works just fine, but people don't choose to use it if there is an alternative available.

Quote
This is a pretty good article.
http://communication.howstuffworks.com/how-wireless-mesh-networks-work.htm

Ah, I see that search did some good.

Quote
Now, if I lived in an apt complex I wouldnt want 50 other people hogging my bandwidth, but if a few neighbors want to use it, no problem.

So put an old 802.11b access point on a spare ethernet port, turn on DHCP, packet forwarding and NAT, and rate-limit it. That's what I've done, easy on Linux can't help you with Windows, but out here in suburbia the house-to-house distances are too great.

There is an open ad-hoc "freenet" in a few places even in this hopeless burg, but sadly not near me.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on December 22, 2009, 01:26:02 PM

So put an old 802.11b access point on a spare ethernet port, turn on DHCP, packet forwarding and NAT, and rate-limit it. That's what I've done, easy on Linux can't help you with Windows, but out here in suburbia the house-to-house distances are too great.

There is an open ad-hoc "freenet" in a few places even in this hopeless burg, but sadly not near me.
Easy with windows too.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: spicynujac on December 23, 2009, 03:27:03 AM

But not at the speeds people expect for that kind of money.

Dialup still works just fine, but people don't choose to use it if there is an alternative available.

The technology is available for much faster transfer speeds, and this could be done on a free and open mesh network.  The fact that a mesh network that you may have access to in the US is several times slower than the service you pay for is a reflection of the adoption of the technology by the masses, not a weakness in the technology itself.

In fact, hardware exists for gigabit wireless mesh networking, and you can read about it here
http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/SENSORCOMM.2008.117
It is many times faster than any wired or wireless internet service you can pay for as a consumer.  The point is, the technology is there if you want it.  The limitations are social, not technological.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: BobRobertson on December 23, 2009, 07:42:02 AM
The limitations are social, not technological.

Which leads me to conclude that there is some government regulation in the way, or some smart schmucks would have started implementing it already.

Something to keep in mind: Political problems are not solved by technology, any more than a technological problem can be solved by politics.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on December 23, 2009, 12:28:43 PM
The limitations are social, not technological.

Which leads me to conclude that there is some government regulation in the way, or some smart schmucks would have started implementing it already.

Something to keep in mind: Political problems are not solved by technology, any more than a technological problem can be solved by politics.

There is no government regulation in the way, people just want to keep as much Internet as they can for themselves.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: BobRobertson on December 24, 2009, 02:19:26 PM
There is no government regulation in the way, people just want to keep as much Internet as they can for themselves.

Then build it.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: NuroSlam on December 24, 2009, 02:43:00 PM
ham radio shares spectrum with wiress routers allowing high gain antennas with HSMM High Speed Multi-Media. Search for cantenna. Ranges of several miles can be achived.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: spicynujac on December 25, 2009, 01:52:24 AM
Political problems are not solved by technology

Hmm, I don't know if I agree.  I would say that without the internet, we would live in a much less free world today.  I know Ian and the FSP guys have said the Free State Project wouldn't be possible without the internet.  The FSP is definately an answer to a political problem.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: blackie on December 25, 2009, 10:43:22 AM
I would say that without the internet, we would live in a much less free world today. 
Technology cannot increase freedom.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 25, 2009, 01:01:37 PM
Nice thread.  Don't have anything to add at the moment though...


Technology cannot increase freedom.

And so this forum yields yet another candidate for my "dumbest things ever uttered by a human being" list!

("If you don't vote you can't complain" and "taxes buy civilization" are still tied for #1 though.)
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: blackie on December 25, 2009, 10:42:44 PM
Technology cannot increase freedom.

And so this forum yields yet another candidate for my "dumbest things ever uttered by a human being" list!

I guess it depends how you define "freedom".

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html
Quote
112. People anxious to rescue freedom without sacrificing the supposed benefits of technology will suggest naive schemes for some new form of society that would reconcile freedom with technology. Apart from the fact that people who make suggestions seldom propose any practical means by which the new form of society could be set up in the first place, it follows from the fourth principle that even if the new form of society could be once established, it either would collapse or would give results very different from those expected.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 25, 2009, 11:50:50 PM
From the invention of the first hunting and fishing implements (and later fire, farming, literature, etc), technology has allowed man to free himself from the constraints of animal-like existence, and enabled the very concepts of individualism and mutual non-aggression that you are now trying to defend!

In every example where technology is presented as being harmful, the harm comes not from the technology itself but from its application within a society that recognizes the "divine right" of governments to a monopoly on power.  Technology can be a great equalizer, reducing the capacity of the "powers that be" to keep their "subjects" ignorant and easy to deceive.  None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who stick their heads in the sand in the name of freedom!
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: BobRobertson on December 26, 2009, 01:39:14 PM
I know Ian and the FSP guys have said the Free State Project wouldn't be possible without the internet.  The FSP is definately an answer to a political problem.

While the FSP certainly benefits from the speed of communication, it is not dependent upon it.

I cite as evidence the greenie socialist migration to Vermont beginning in the early 1970s. Without the 'Net it happened, just as a migration to New Hampshire could have been started by Soren's article in a paper magazine, such as _Liberty_, then written up in _Freedom Daily_ and the _Journal of Libertarian Studies_, or an article in _The Free Market_.

Talk radio pre-exists the (commercial, non-government) 'Net, as does ham-radio, something I certainly would have been actively doing if not for the 'Net having made long-distance personal communication so very much easier than learning Morse code.

Would it have gotten as big as it is, as quickly as it has? No. And Free Talk Live might exist only as two guys and a microphone somewhere in the 2-meter band. But it could exist.

The 'Net is nothing but a medium of communication, no different than a soap-box and a megaphone.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 27, 2009, 02:08:07 AM
Yeah, and FTL could still exist without the evolution of homoerectus, except Ian and Mark would be monkeys sitting in a tree throwing poo instead of radio waves.  :roll:
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: BobRobertson on December 31, 2009, 07:40:26 AM
Yeah, and FTL could still exist without the evolution of homoerectus, except Ian and Mark would be monkeys sitting in a tree throwing poo instead of radio waves.  :roll:

And with complete liberty to do so. In such a situation, there would be no FSP because there would be no need for it.

Let me be clear, I'm no luddite. Technology is a great enabler, but it enables everyone. The freeman and the tyrant are both able to use technology to their own ends. Technology is amoral.

The same cameras that capture the abuse of the jack booted thugs also invade the privacy of the peaceful individual. Technology, by itself, solves nothing.

What has always been destructive is when the powers of coercion gain substantial technological superiority. That's when tyranny really takes hold.
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 31, 2009, 01:56:44 PM
I refuse to just accept your claim that monkeys don't enjoy listening to Free Talk Live - a scientific study must be carried out at once!



:lol:
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: sillyperson on December 31, 2009, 02:11:07 PM
I refuse to just accept your claim that monkeys don't enjoy listening to Free Talk Live - a scientific study must be carried out at once!
You would be the one to nearly-necro this otherwise mercifully dying thread
Title: Re: local wireless mesh network caller a couple months back
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 31, 2009, 05:10:30 PM
Wow, you sure like to bury `em fresh!  If you're an archaeologist and you dig out a 10,000-year-old Web-server with this forum's database - then it's too late to necro, because you clearly aren't a part of the shared literary experience that is this forum.  But while most of the posters or their next of kin are still alive - you're merely extending the conversation.