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Lukey

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #330 on: November 07, 2009, 02:28:09 PM »

OK please state WHY exactly the Linux desktop sucks, which Linux desktop, as Linux users have choice of many different types as you should know. I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.
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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #331 on: November 07, 2009, 02:41:49 PM »

1. Shitty hardware support (mostly due to vendors being cunts, but wth...).
2. Constant grandstanding of one project over another (ex. KDE v Gnome or the numerous 'frameworks' for sound and video).
3. RMS and other antisocial dumbasses being allowed to speak (Not much of a problem as just like with Balmer you just don't bother listening to their speeches).
4. Alex Libman.
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #332 on: November 07, 2009, 08:43:03 PM »

You post misleading statistics, I point out how they are not "objective" by any non Microsoft Marketing Department meaning of the word, and you return with insults and vitriol.

Why, does your cult leader tell you that the whole world looks to North Korea err, I mean to Linux desktop as their last best hope?  Does Linux Pravda report 101% desktop market share?  :lol:


I merely disagree with your "sucks", and your absolute statements about the unsuitability of Linux for other people.

How about this - we get into a GUI app programming contest.  Round 1 would use the GNU toolchain (i.e. gcc) with GTK+, round 2 would Visual C++ 2010 with MFC, round 3 would use Java with Swing, and round 4 would use Visual C# 2010 / .NET 4.  If you prove yourself to be a better all-around desktop programmer, your opinion on this thread's subject will matter more than mine.  ;)


No, A.L. I am not. They are not. I have had exactly the same experience with both desktop and server installs of Linux. In fact, since they are exactly the same code merely differing in whether the keyboard and screen are directly attached, I'm not surprised at all that the stability and frugality of one is found on the other.

The server-related Linux components received billions of dollars in funding from governments and companies trying to hurt Microsoft (including "military-industrial complex" cocksuckers like IBM and Oracle), as well as reasonable people who use LAMP technology stack, as do I.  The desktop components received considerably less, though the government of Finnokialand is rushing in to help.

The #1 priority of a good desktop experience is perfect hardware support, and, though Linux has made a lot of progress it's still nowhere close to being ready.  Furthermore, Linux font rendering and video codec quality suck for purely software / userland reasons as well.

The #2 priority of a good desktop experience is consistency: all your core apps should share libraries, automation API's, GUI widgets, dialogs, etc.  In Windows, if you know how to automate Microsoft Word then you've passed 75% of the learning curve for doing pretty much anything else.  In Ubuntu you have half your apps using C / GTK+, but your IDE probably uses Java (Swing or SWT), your browser or podcatcher probably also uses XUL, your torrent client and probably some other apps use Qt, your music manager or desktop search tool might use Mono, some apps are written in perl or python, and don't even get me started on OO.o...  All those different API's introduce unnecessary complexity, and all those different VM's fail to share resources and are all MUCH slower than Microsoft's CLR.

And then you have the quality of the available apps.  As I already admitted, the FOSS desktop has one major success story - Firefox, which I use myself; but, as noted above - it runs better & faster on Windows!  I will also admit that there are a handful of good Linux desktop components, most notably Pidgin, and the only other things that don't suck are little applets like gnome-terminal / konsole.  All those run great on Windows as well.  That aside, all major Linux desktop components are functionally inferior to their proprietary alternatives!
OpenOffice.org offers most of the features of Office 97, but is 5x slower and has far fewer third party solutions, while newer versions of MS Office apps blow it away!  The Adobe flash plug-in has a tendency to crash (I don't care whole fault it is), while it never does on Windows.  You find yourself jumping back in forth between a dozen IDE's in hope of finding one that doesn't suck, but you never do.  Gimp - ya gotta be kidding me!  Etc, etc, etc.


What you cannot seem to understand is that there is no "force".
If you don't like the GPL, then don't use code licensed under the GPL.  Simple.

Am I also free not to pay taxes?  An invaluable amount of work that has gone into making GPL software usable was funded by governments and public universities, especially in Europe but in US / Canada as well.  Of course if Stallman has his way the amount of government spending on "free software" would be multiplied by 100, but he may have to wait until Obama's second term to get that.

What would happen if Microsoft behaved like Linux, like making it as easy to "ms-get" software from public university FTP servers?  EU won't even let them bundle a Web browser with their OS!


And since you ignore the Microsoft EULA when you find it convenient to do so, why such an over-reaction to one particular type of software license?

No client has ever asked me if my copy of Windows, Visual Studio, or any other MS / Adobe / Borland / etc software was legitimately licensed (and for much of the time most of them were).  But if some libraries I'm linking are GPL'ed (i.e. strong viral copyleft), then we can have a serious legal problem...


How about IBM, Google, Novell and RedHat making plenty of money using GPL code?

Novell is making money!  Wow!  Really!  Man, I knew I should have renewed my certs...  :lol:

And, OK, RedHat's revenues surpassed $500 million earlier this year.  That's less than Bill Gates spends on pocket protectors, but nonetheless impressive.  Now...  What fraction of their income comes from desktop-related products and services? 

Companies like IBM license their own products as GPL instead of BSD for their own selfish self-interest.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)  They want to deploy their solutions on something that doesn't empower their competitor -- Microsoft -- while preventing other businesses from profiting from their code, like Apple has profited from BSD.  Their actual revenue comes from other products, which are not only closed-source but often involve NDA's as well!


And they still can't make an OS that doesn't require rebooting to make a change to 3rd party applications.

Um, when was the last time you've used Windows?  The need for reboots has decreased drastically.  Some apps recommend reboot as a precaution, but I never had any problems ignoring them.  And Windows 7 reboots the whole system faster than Ubuntu reloads X + Gnome / KDE, which get updated quite often.  And when you need to update / recompile the kernel - now that's a reboot you can't possibly avoid!


The subject is about how awful Linux is. See, it says it right there. "Linux Sucks."

Um, do you think Java is an operating system kernel?!  The first page of this thread make it very clear that this thread is about the GUI desktop experience, particularly from a developer's point of view.


LOL, arguing on the internet.

I'm pretty devoted to server-side Linux development, and I'll switch to Linux on the desktop once it catches up.  (Of course I've been saying "once KDE 4 comes out" years ago...)  If anyone ever calls me a Linux fanatic, I'll be able to point to this thread as proof to the contrary.  I calls `em as I sees `em - even if I have to bounce my arguments against someone as obtuse as anti-Microsoft Bob here.   :twisted:


1. Shitty hardware support  [...]

That in of itself is reason enough.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 08:53:20 PM by Alex Libman »
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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #333 on: November 07, 2009, 10:03:42 PM »

Java fucking blows, and Mozilla is unstable.  And fuck rebooting.

</important speak>
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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #334 on: November 07, 2009, 10:11:02 PM »

Yet Linux makes the servers go round, Alex, you can't deny that. The reason is quite simple: Unix has too many limitations that the Linux kernal shares none. Linux has little to none of the cruft to deal with too. So I can't say I support your bitching and whining anymore than I can support the idiocy of the "Year of the Desktop for Linux" crap.

None the less, the more you keep trying to defend Microsoft, whose over all market share has shrank under Balmer's stewardship (goes to show you need a nerd to run a nerd company) compare that to the market share of Redhat who keeps growing year after year. Sure Redhat is a small company in terms of interval scale, but it's real zero scale (of where they started and where they are now) that counts in terms of their market value. I can tell you the only thing keeping Microsoft alive at this point is name recognition and cultural entrenchment (particularly in the office desktop world). Everywhere else, even in gaming, they're the butt of everyone's joke. Zune is laughed at. Xbox is always called POS for its chronic RROD. And Windows, well you get that one in terms of the lack of hardware support (even in Windows 7).

So I'm sorry, Alex, Microsoft is not the pinnacle of software success. And the more you try to blame its shortcomings on others like Linux or some neckbeard reject (RMS) the more you look like an asshole trying to be a contrarian troll (which is what I think you're after, but I can't be sure).
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Lukey

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #335 on: November 08, 2009, 12:05:32 AM »

OK please state WHY exactly the Linux desktop sucks, which Linux desktop, as Linux users have choice of many different types as you should know. I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.

Still no answer? what is it, ok a few graphics cards and some wifi cards thats all. that has nothing to do with the desktop and anyway what drivers are built into windows? how many disks do you need to install it, how long does that take, oh and make sure you give them all your details to while your at it so you can be tracked no mater what network you connect to. : )
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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #336 on: November 08, 2009, 09:19:40 AM »


I

AM

NOT

A

CON

TRA

RI

AN

!!!


YES

YOU

ARE

YOU

FATTY

MCFAT

FAT

...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 09:22:20 AM by The Sniper »
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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #337 on: November 08, 2009, 10:11:15 AM »

If you prove yourself to be a better all-around desktop programmer, your opinion on this thread's subject will matter more than mine.

This thread, as you are so fond of telling other people, isn't about programming. It's about the desktop.

For you, it doesn't work. For me it does.

Why is that so threatening to you?

Quote
The #1 priority of a good desktop experience is perfect hardware support, and, though Linux has made a lot of progress it's still nowhere close to being ready.

Again the double standard. Manufacturers who write drivers for Windows, but not Linux, is somehow in your bizzaro world a failure of "Linux" and not the manufacturers.

Yet what do you say when hardware isn't supported in Windows?

Silence. No comment.

Quote
The #2 priority of a good desktop experience is consistency

So let me guess here, just speculating, that since my daughter's computer games don't work on Win7, or Vista, or XP, but did on Win2K, you're going to tell me that's a Linux failure.

Quote
What you cannot seem to understand is that there is no "force".
If you don't like the GPL, then don't use code licensed under the GPL.  Simple.

Am I also free not to pay taxes?

Your grasp of what the phrase "free market" means seems just about as clear as your grasp of what "preference" means.

Both completely elude you.

Quote
What would happen if Microsoft behaved like Linux, like making it as easy to "ms-get" software from public university FTP servers?

I don't know.

What would happen if Microsoft published their APIs, used commodity protocols and completely portable, published and standardized file formats?

Maybe, of all the things Microsoft might be, "loathed" would finally not be on the list.

Quote
EU won't even let them bundle a Web browser with their OS!

You need to include why this is a "Linux" failure.

Personally, I think it's because Microsoft has been so arrogant, ignorant and self-righteous for long that they have finally pissed off enough people to cause "blow-back".

Well deserved blow-back.

Quote
No client has ever asked me if my copy of Windows, Visual Studio, or any other MS / Adobe / Borland / etc software was legitimately licensed (and for much of the time most of them were).

So you deliberately open your CLIENTS to legal action, by knowingly violating software licenses?

This is the kind of asshole act that makes independent consulting so very hard.

Quote
But if some libraries I'm linking are GPL'ed (i.e. strong viral copyleft), then we can have a serious legal problem...

Your serious legal problem is that you pick and choose what license applies. Your pathetic attachment to one license, the GPL, while ignoring all the rest, only ruins what little credibility your self-proclaimed expertise might have engendered.

Quote
And they still can't make an OS that doesn't require rebooting to make a change to 3rd party applications.

Um, when was the last time you've used Windows?  The need for reboots has decreased drastically.

So these "expert" programmers, and billions of dollars in R&D by your own assertion, over the course of 15 years, has yielded only "The need for reboots has decreased drastically."

Talk about damning with faint praise.

Are you telling me this is some kind of PROMOTION of Microsoft products?

Quote
And when you need to update / recompile the kernel - now that's a reboot you can't possibly avoid!

That's why I specifically said "3rd party software", not the kernel itself.

Quote
1. Shitty hardware support  [...]

That in of itself is reason enough.

That's certainly one of the reasons I don't use Windows. One of the interesting aspects of not buying hardware with Windows pre-installed is to see the very real problems with hardware support that Windows has.

And remember, A.L., you can't go running to tell me that any Windows hardware problems is because of a lack of manufacturer's drivers, since you've already ruled that out by blaming that problem on "Linux".
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #338 on: November 08, 2009, 10:59:34 AM »

[...]  So I can't say I support your bitching and whining

I'm not "bitching an whining", I am saying that the "bitching and whining" of the GNU'tards sucks ass.


[...]  anymore than I can support the idiocy of the "Year of the Desktop for Linux" crap.

Good for you.


None the less, the more you keep trying to defend Microsoft, whose over all market share has shrank under Balmer's stewardship (goes to show you need a nerd to run a nerd company) compare that to the market share of Redhat who keeps growing year after year.

When you're starting your growth from zero, appeal to the great unwashed masses of the third world, proclaim yourself ideologically superior, and give something away for free - of course you'll experience market share growth, to a point.  This is like the sort of propaganda you hear in Angola or Venezuela - "Uncle Sam's share of world GDP is shrinking!  Ours is growing!  Yaay socialism!"  :lol:

Just like the faster-growing Soviet economy never surpassed the United States, and just like China will never surpass the U.S. on per-capita basis, it is fully conceivable that Linux will never surpass Microsoft on the desktop in terms of quality.  Microsoft would probably want to start charging people in subscriptions (i.e. $5 - $20 per user per month) - they might have already been doing that if it wasn't for all the antitrust bullshit.  People who care about quality would always be willing to pay that - heck, people are willing to pay $300 more per month to drive a decent car rather than a junker, and most people spend a lot more time in front of their computer than they do in their car!  And Microsoft will always be able to reinvest that into hiring the best programmers (as opposed to Scandinavian 20-something welfare suckers who never had a real job), and keep those programmers organized with a central design philosophy (ex. one great VM instead of 20 crap ones).  Microsoft would also be able to use that R&D capital to further branch out into hardware, services, and so on.  Capitalism FTW!


[...]  Zune is laughed at.

Only by Appletards who think Apple hangs with Al Gore and Barack Obama and fights global warming 'n stuff - and it's those people who buy high-end MP3 players.  I bought a dumb little MP3 player ages ago - why would I need anything more?  I use Zune software to download podcasts on my Windows boxes (replacing my infamous pod-get script from before), and when I finally buy a new MP3 player (frugal as I am, it'll probably be after the old one disintegrates into sub-atomic dust) it will probably be a Zune.

And in spite of being an untrendy late-comer, Zune's market share percentage is close to beating that of Mac's share on the desktop, and is about 4-5 times higher than that of Linux.   8)


[...]  Xbox is always called POS for its chronic RROD  [...]

Ah Xbox, the great American success story.  They've said that cars and video game consoles cannot be manufactured without government support anymore, because Japan's "ministry of industry" has been able to focus their whole $5 trillion dollar economy on exporting those things to the rest of the world.  In comes Microsoft, and positions itself directly in the path of the Japanese video game dynasties!  Will Xbox sink, like USS Arizona in Pearl Harbor, and like all other attempts to revive the American console industry?  No, it swims!  Though the much cheaper Nintendo Wii won the latest round in a down economy, Xbox 360 still managed to beat PS3!


Still no answer?

This thread lists many reasons, and I've just summarized them yet again in post on Nov 7th, 8:43 PM EST.


how many disks do you need to install it

Disks?  Wow, talk about being stuck in the 20th century...  Pro's copy OS'es from partition images downloaded from the network, which can be your own backups or, in case of Windows / MacOS X, pirated images installed / cracked / configured by trusted hacker groups in many different flavors.  Even without that, as noted above, you can install boxed ("vanilla") Windows 7 from another Windows OS without a physical disk or USB.  On XP I still had to use something called a "driver pack", but for Windows 7 it installed virtually all of the drivers I needed automatically.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux is just fine.
« Reply #339 on: November 08, 2009, 11:08:49 AM »

OK please state WHY exactly the Linux desktop sucks, which Linux desktop, as Linux users have choice of many different types as you should know.

While the personal reasons to prefer one over the other are legion, and irrefutable since they're personal, the reasons that A.L. gives are bullshit.

1) Some hardware makers don't write good drivers for Linux.
2) Some software publishers don't write software for Linux.
3) Microsoft doesn't write software for Linux.

That pretty much sums it up.

Oh, wait, a new one that came up in the last couple of days: GNOME and KDE are in competition with each other, and he just hates that.

He tries to make "technical" arguments about why "desktop" Linux use is absurd, stupid and self-destructive, but "server" Linux is just fine, but his arguments read like they were written by the Microsoft Marketing Department. Oh, and "server" Linux isn't the subject so he won't do anything but bring it up over an over.

Quote
I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.

I think you encapsulate his argument perfectly.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #340 on: November 08, 2009, 11:57:41 AM »

This thread, as you are so fond of telling other people, isn't about programming.  It's about the desktop.

Anyone who isn't functionally illiterate in the English language and has minimal computer literacy would be able to read the beginnings of this thread and understand what it is about.  What is your major malfunction exactly, do you think "Java" is a full-stack desktop environment?  Do you think desktop applications grow just by themselves without someone having to program / customize them?  Clearly you can't talk about a desktop experience without looking at how it's designed!


For you, it doesn't work.  For me it does.

Because you're a delusional commie puritan who likes having a ginger butt-plug in his rectum.   :lol:


Why is that so threatening to you?

Because the Astroturf Handbook, errrr, I mean because the ghost of Ayn Rand wants me to be pissed off at crappy commie desktop design.   :lol:


Again the double standard. Manufacturers who write drivers for Windows, but not Linux, is somehow in your bizzaro world a failure of "Linux" and not the manufacturers.

Manufacturers are not your slaves, they have no obligation to write drivers for your viral commie OS that has 1% of the desktop market share.


Yet what do you say when hardware isn't supported in Windows?

Consumer desktop hardware that isn't supported by Windows?   :shock:

Is it from the same people who engineer cars that don't drive on asphalt?   :?


So let me guess here, just speculating, that since my daughter's computer games don't work on Win7, or Vista, or XP, but did on Win2K, you're going to tell me that's a Linux failure.

Which games are those?  That's a DosBox / VMware failure most likely...

And I'm sure this problem is far, far easier to solve than the problems you have to solve with Linux to get it working right: good graphics card performance, ALSA, cellular card, USB peripherals, dependency hell, figuring out how to make crappy-by-default font rendering to stop hurting your eyes, figuring out how to open an IE-only Web app (very common on corporate networks) or a PowerPoint presentation your boss just e-mailed you, etc, etc, etc.


Your grasp of what the phrase "free market" means seems just about as clear as your grasp of what "preference" means.

You're free to run Linux on your desktop, or, heck, OS/2 Warp.  And I'm free to make fun of you.

And yet my point about "free software" being supported by tax-victim dollars remains unanswered.  In absence of all those European welfare universities and other government force, the "open source desktop" would mean running Emacs on GNU/Hurd.  :lol:


What would happen if Microsoft published their APIs, used commodity protocols and completely portable, published and standardized file formats?  Maybe, of all the things Microsoft might be, "loathed" would finally not be on the list.

Yeah yeah, everyone must give away all their assets and do everything for free.  Yaay altruism.  :roll:


Well deserved blow-back.

You sound just like a Stalin apologist...


So you deliberately open your CLIENTS to legal action, by knowingly violating software licenses?

They can't be sued for me developing their code on pirated products.

They can be sued, however, if I used some GPL'ed components.


Your serious legal problem is that you pick and choose what license applies. Your pathetic attachment to one license, the GPL, while ignoring all the rest, only ruins what little credibility your self-proclaimed expertise might have engendered.

The LGPL license isn't much better, and together the two GNU licenses account for a large fraction of the so-called "free software" out there.  And efforts like gpl-violations.org are just the tip of the iceberg - GNU'tards are becoming a powerful political lobbying force with the goal of getting the government involved in the software industry as much as possible: "net neutrality", government grants for software development, government "regulation" of all standards and API's, etc, etc, etc.


So these "expert" programmers, and billions of dollars in R&D by your own assertion, over the course of 15 years, has yielded only "The need for reboots has decreased drastically."  Talk about damning with faint praise.

If you can run a fully-loaded 2010 Microsoft desktop side-by-site with Ubuntu and claim that Ubuntu is better - you need medical attention fast.


That's certainly one of the reasons I don't use Windows. One of the interesting aspects of not buying hardware with Windows pre-installed is to see the very real problems with hardware support that Windows has.

You're delusional.  Windows is the undisputed champion of the x86(x64) desktop - at it runs very well on Apple hardware as well.  If a piece of consumer PC hardware doesn't run on Windows, then it was probably produced in East Germany before the wall fell!


GNOME and KDE are in competition with each other, and he just hates that.

Competition is good, but both fail to stand on their own and you must patch together a Frankenstein desktop from parts of both, as well as borrowing completely different design philosophies from apps that use XUL, Java, Mono, UNO, wxWidgets, Tk, curses, etc, etc, etc.  It's like buying a car that's half Yugo and half Hummer glued together, with bicycle wheels, a coal-burning engine, and a saddle...


I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.
I think you encapsulate his argument perfectly.

Seems like all my other arguments flew went light-years above your heads...

I guess it's like Howard Roark trying to explain his design principles to the architect in charge of Eastern-European commieblocks (which were anything but cost-effective in the long run)...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 12:12:39 PM by Alex Libman »
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Lukey

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #341 on: November 08, 2009, 02:34:13 PM »

What's all this stuff about commie ? and how in the world can you customize microsoft stuff. and are you still going to be singing there praise when come to get you! you still have not specified what magic super powers windows users poses over Linux users, teleportation, anti grav, telepathic interactions, I know its the grass hill in the background it makes you feel all fuzzy and safe inside.
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #342 on: November 08, 2009, 03:18:50 PM »

Your "how in the world can you customize Microsoft stuff" comment reveals much ignorance of Windows programming.

And there's no "magic" involved.  Just comparing a precision-engineered BMW 7-series (Windows 7 Ultimate) to what I described above - "a car that's half Yugo and half Hummer glued together, with bicycle wheels, a coal-burning engine, and a saddle".  :lol:
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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #343 on: November 08, 2009, 03:38:03 PM »

I'm not "bitching an whining", I am saying that the "bitching and whining" of the GNU'tards sucks ass.

Yes, you are. Constantly.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

BobRobertson

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Re: Linux is just fine.
« Reply #344 on: November 08, 2009, 03:42:35 PM »

What's all this stuff about commie ?

Seriously, what other argument does A.L. have?
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820
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