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Author Topic: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!  (Read 147412 times)

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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #180 on: July 28, 2009, 11:27:24 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFAJDbV9Vfs

These guys are great. Not Linux-centric enough for my tastes, but then I'm not writing their gags.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Alex Libman 14

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #181 on: July 29, 2009, 02:40:21 PM »

[...]  Not that I have anything to prove.

Of course not.  I was just curious.


Then you don't understand the GPL.  [...]

I'm aware of all those socialist apologetics, and I still prefer freedom, thank you very much.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #182 on: July 29, 2009, 08:41:00 PM »

I'm aware of all those socialist apologetics, and I still prefer freedom, thank you very much.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how your beloved Microsoft's use of copyright and patent isn't "socialist".
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Alex Libman 14

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #183 on: July 29, 2009, 09:02:50 PM »

This thread is all about complementing Microsoft's product quality, particularly from the point of view of desktop operating systems (i.e. Windows 7), business apps (ex. Office 2010), and GUI software development (ex. Visual Studio 2010).

I speak out against "intellectual property" both on this thread and elsewhere.

I've also mentioned that I believe companies like Microsoft can still make a decent profit without government force: membership fees for developer clubs and certification, business contracts, and so on.

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NuroSlam

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #184 on: July 30, 2009, 05:57:10 AM »

This thread is all about complementing Microsoft's product quality, particularly from the point of view of desktop operating systems (i.e. Windows 7), business apps (ex. Office 2010), and GUI software development (ex. Visual Studio 2010).

I speak out against "intellectual property" both on this thread and elsewhere.

I've also mentioned that I believe companies like Microsoft can still make a decent profit without government force: membership fees for developer clubs and certification, business contracts, and so on.


Sorry, but the quality I have seen from Microsoft is no better or worse then that of the open-source community. Granted, it is better directed for their business model, but quality? As a desktop environment, to be honest, it doesn't matter a rats ass what I use, but I have yet to meet a person who couldn't sit down and use a modern desktop like gnome or KDE with the most minimal of help.

As a business app, MS Office, especially the last couple of versions adds very little, if anything, to MS office 97.

For development, I cant speak about VS or any other environment as I have never had a need for a "studio", vi works just fine for me, as i know what I'm doing.


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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #185 on: July 30, 2009, 09:14:56 AM »

It's interesting that you mention Office 97, because that's all that current open-source packages like OpenOffice.org 3 can compare to.  Office applications are very advanced "under the hood", with the casual user only being aware of like 10% of the features and possibilities - to make them more accessible and easier to use.  A scripting power-user is very much aware of all the innovations that took place with Microsoft technologies over the recent years, and the upcoming .NET version 4 knocks it out of the ballpark.

Linux feels like a Frankenstein with different pieces of the body glued, stitched, and duct-taped together, fitting poorly, behaving differently, with a million spare parts left over, but some essential parts downright rotten or missing altogether.  A fraction of the apps you end up using use GTK, some XUL, some Qt, some Java, some Mono, some are Windows apps that you (hopefully are able to) run via emulation because there are no suitable Linux versions, etc - and many apps are written in slow scripting languages.  Some apps feel like fake buildings they use on movie sets - a hollow shell just pretending to be an app with no substance behind it.

Microsoft's productivity / developer environment feels like one healthy body - harmonious, flexible, and strong.  A single programming framework can be used to control anything and everything once you learn it, and PowerShell gives you even greater control over your system than the UNIX command-line.  And so on.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #186 on: July 30, 2009, 11:39:14 AM »

I find this very interesting.

First you say,

This thread is all about complementing Microsoft's product quality, particularly from the point of view of desktop operating systems (i.e. Windows 7), business apps (ex. Office 2010), and GUI software development (ex. Visual Studio 2010).

Then you spend the vast majority of your time simply putting down anything that isn't Microsoft.

Linux feels like a Frankenstein with different pieces of the body glued, stitched, and duct-taped together, fitting poorly, behaving differently, with a million spare parts left over, but some essential parts downright rotten or missing altogether.  A fraction of the apps you end up using use GTK, some XUL, some Qt, some Java, some Mono, some are Windows apps that you (hopefully are able to) run via emulation because there are no suitable Linux versions, etc - and many apps are written in slow scripting languages.  Some apps feel like fake buildings they use on movie sets - a hollow shell just pretending to be an app with no substance behind it.

And everything you say is exactly how Microsoft products work for me. Or rather, they don't. They're patched together by different development teams that don't even talk to each other, using undocumented APIs so that the Justice Department can't punish them for failing to make their APIs available to external developers; bug patching done only when the bug is so bad it's embarrassing the entire company; buying the ISO to certify a standard that is not only unimplementable by anyone outside of Microsoft, but one that even Microsoft doesn't use and apparently never intended to use.

Individual applications written by lots of different people are as variable when compiled for Windows as they are for any other OS. To bemoan that variability when using Linux, and then claim that variability doesn't exist when using Windows is disingenuous at best.

The context of NeuroSlam's use of Office97 wasn't to state that OpenOffice, KOffice and the other F/OSS "office" applications are sadly comparable, "oh woe!", to something 10 years old. It was to point out that Office97 was pretty much the peak of Microsoft development. Office97 is the only thing left of Microsoft that still compares.

Sure, Microsoft might be able to compete in a completely free market. Maybe. It would be good for them if they got off their proprietary business model and started now, before there is nothing left of their company.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Alex Libman 14

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #187 on: July 30, 2009, 01:26:32 PM »

Yes, I can think of a couple dozen things in some obscure API's that aren't documented for Joe Sixpack, but that never gave me any trouble.  Rumors of those few exceptions have been greatly exaggerated over the years, to the point that those function calls are now legendary and documented on hundreds of third party sites.  It's all a breathe compared to jumping through a dozen forum threads trying to find out how to get a Perl module to do what it's supposed to.  You repeating those commie-lore urban legends about Microsoft API's only demonstrates your lack of practical hands-on Windows developer experience.

The defense rests.  8)
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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #188 on: July 30, 2009, 05:35:30 PM »

You repeating those commie-lore urban legends about Microsoft API's only demonstrates your lack of practical hands-on Windows developer experience.

Not me. Microsoft employees, during MS prosecution for "anti-trust" and during the EU investigations as to how the Samba project was being systematically thwarted in their efforts to be compatible with Windows.

Really, your Astroturf handbook should be more up-to-date than that.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Alex Libman 14

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #189 on: July 31, 2009, 03:42:08 PM »

Oh noes, evil Microsoft isn't going out of its way to help their competition!  the horror!  the horror!  How dare they even defend themselves at Massa Government's anti-trust trial!  Throw them all in prison stat, right next to Hank Rearden and Lysander Spooner!  :lol:

Seriously, how funny is that - an "open source or bust" activist is accusing me of following a "handbook", just for defending the virtues of capitalist (i.e. non-copyleft) software that the vast majority of businesses choose to use in the free market.  Wow...  In reality only about 1% of users run Linux on the client-side, and the majority of them still keep a Windows / Mac OS / BSD / etc partition.  You socialist "ubuntu" software nuts don't just plant Astroturf, it seems that you've started to smoke it too!

With the advent of Microsoft Stores, I guess now you'll have something other than SUV dealerships and medical research laboratories you can bomb...
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NuroSlam

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #190 on: July 31, 2009, 04:26:27 PM »

Oh noes, evil Microsoft isn't going out of its way to help their competition!  the horror!  the horror!  How dare they even defend themselves at Massa Government's anti-trust trial!  Throw them all in prison stat, right next to Hank Rearden and Lysander Spooner!  :lol:

Seriously, how funny is that - an "open source or bust" activist is accusing me of following a "handbook", just for defending the virtues of capitalist (i.e. non-copyleft) software that the vast majority of businesses choose to use in the free market.  Wow...  In reality only about 1% of users run Linux on the client-side, and the majority of them still keep a Windows / Mac OS / BSD / etc partition.  You socialist "ubuntu" software nuts don't just plant Astroturf, it seems that you've started to smoke it too!

With the advent of Microsoft Stores, I guess now you'll have something other than SUV dealerships and medical research laboratories you can bomb...

Defend themselves, like copyrighting keystrokes?

Socialism is forced, nothing is forced about Open-source software. Its completely voluntary if you want to use it or if you want to contribute, or if you want to try and make money from it. Thats a true free market. If you are going to label people, make sure you know what you are talking about. Again, there is nothing stopping anyone from making money in the free market using FOSS products. I highly suggest reading "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond. The more I read from you, the more I see that you really don't have a clue about FOSS software.

http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 04:29:38 PM by NuroSlam »
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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #191 on: July 31, 2009, 05:03:18 PM »

Oh noes, evil Microsoft isn't going out of its way to help their competition!  the horror!  the horror!  How dare they even defend themselves at Massa Government's anti-trust trial!  Throw them all in prison stat, right next to Hank Rearden and Lysander Spooner!

"Defend themselves" by describing a disfunctional, even deliberately crippled, development model, so bad that the obvious failings of that development cannot be demonstrated to be deliberate even in a kangaroo court?

Not a defense that gives me confidence about their products.

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Seriously, how funny is that - an "open source or bust" activist is accusing me of following a "handbook", just for defending the virtues of capitalist (i.e. non-copyleft) software that the vast majority of businesses choose to use in the free market.

Wrong on multiple counts.

1) I'm not "open source or bust", I've said several times that people choosing what works best for them is just fine by me. To deny the choices of others would merely open me to having my choice denied: Hypocrisy.

2) If you don't have a handbook, then you are making the same mistakes, using the same wordings, supporting exactly the same non-proprietary license for the same reasons, as a huge number of apparently coordinated individuals who also post those same errors. http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/linux-sucks-as.html
   You're right, you may very well not be an astroturfer. However, as the saying goes, once is happenstance, twice is circumstance, thrice is enemy action. Me thinkst you do protest far too much.

3) Capitalism is private ownership of property. I don't own my copy of Windows, neither do you own yours. You're just paying for a license to use Microsoft's software, with various restrictions put upon your use of it. (if you didn't just steal it, which you have crowed about in the past)
   To compare, I actually do own the copy of Linux I'm using. I can copy it, sell it, give it away, whatever I want to do with it. It's mine.
   The programmers who wrote the code own that code, and have released that code under the single restriction that if I redistribute their code I do so under the same rules by which I received it.
   So which is "ownership"? Not the Microsoft model.

4) The vast majority of businesses also run various F/OSS, be it Linux or Apache or Tivo or FireFox or OpenOffice or sendmail or any of many, many thousands of other F/OSS projects. Bully for them.

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In reality only about 1% of users run Linux on the client-side, and the majority of them still keep a Windows / Mac OS / BSD / etc partition.

How can you type that and not realize that you're just spewing mindless repetitions of well known Microsoft astroturf FUD?

Please, show me where the Windows partitions are on the top 500 supercomputers in the world. Please.

Oh but of course the astroturf handbook makes sure to always couch those possibly verifiable assertions, such as the "1%", with qualifiers like "client-side", so that when it's pointed out that the overwhelming majority of public-facing web servers run F/OSS, it's possible to say, "But that's not what I was talking about."

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You socialist "ubuntu" software nuts don't just plant Astroturf, it seems that you've started to smoke it too!

Now you're just lying. I neither use Ubuntu nor am I in any way a socialist.

Is this really the quality of your research? I hope not, but it would explain the poor quality of your diatribes against F/OSS.

Your experience and advice in terms of software is usually quite good. It's this one subject in which you are either following someone else's playbook (or handbook, as it were), or you're just utterly blind to your own gross bias.

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With the advent of Microsoft Stores, I guess now you'll have something other than SUV dealerships and medical research laboratories you can bomb...

Gee. I think I'll just leave your emotional tantrum for everyone to see.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 05:05:45 PM by BobRobertson »
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

blackie

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #192 on: July 31, 2009, 05:18:08 PM »

3) Capitalism is private ownership of property. I don't own my copy of Windows, neither do you own yours. You're just paying for a license to use Microsoft's software, with various restrictions put upon your use of it.
Capitalism doesn't allow an owner to license/lease their property?

 
Quote
To compare, I actually do own the copy of Linux I'm using. I can copy it, sell it, give it away, whatever I want to do with it. It's mine. The programmers who wrote the code own that code, and have released that code under the single restriction that if I redistribute their code I do so under the same rules by which I received it.
   So which is "ownership"? Not the Microsoft model.
If you have to follow a restriction, do you really own it?
GPL is a license agreement. The software is licensed to you. You don't own it.
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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #193 on: July 31, 2009, 06:33:51 PM »

Bob Robertson is getting more repetitive, less coherent, and less funny, but he did manage to deliver a laugh by forgetting that apache and sendmail are not copyleft...   He doesn't even remember what he was arguing about!  :lol:


Defend themselves, like copyrighting keystrokes?

Socialism is forced, nothing is forced about Open-source software. Its completely voluntary if you want to use it or if you want to contribute, or if you want to try and make money from it. Thats a true free market. If you are going to label people, make sure you know what you are talking about. Again, there is nothing stopping anyone from making money in the free market using FOSS products. I highly suggest reading "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond. The more I read from you, the more I see that you really don't have a clue about FOSS software.

http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/

Once again, I am not against open-source software, only refusal by some of its fanatical proponents to admit that their emperor is butt-naked, so to speak, and their irrational attacks on Microsoft.  I have many years of experience as an open-source advocate (but mostly just on the server-side), and I can almost recite CatB word for word from memory by now.  I do have a strong preference for public domain / BSD type licenses over GPL / copyleft, but that's a separate issue.

Once again, this is a thread about software quality.  Government evils like "intellectual property" (including its use against "GPL violators") are addressed elsewhere.  And I entirely expect my infatuation with Microsoft to only be a phase, until the Linux / Java world stops pissing me off so much.  I guess the frustration with them has been built up over several years, while Microsoft's quality continued to improve.

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BobRobertson

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Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
« Reply #194 on: July 31, 2009, 07:15:09 PM »

Capitalism doesn't allow an owner to license/lease their property?

Of course. The objection A.L. makes is that because of the "share and share alike" license, it's somehow socialism since there is a restriction, but Microsoft is capitalist because they sell the licenses, with the accompanying restrictions, for money.

Quote
Quote
So which is "ownership"? Not the Microsoft model.

If you have to follow a restriction, do you really own it?

I really do own the compiled program, yes. What I do not own is the underlying code, which doesn't bother me since I didn't write it.

Quote
GPL is a license agreement. The software is licensed to you. You don't own it.

The code is licensed, yes.

However, this is all in context of A.L.'s objection: that because there is a license it's socialist. Well, by his own definition then Microsoft is socialist, and the only distribution method that isn't "socialist" is public domain.

The problem is not whether or not I think software licenses are or are not "socialist", but that A.L. makes a hypocritical distinction in order to put other people down, and then cries foul when it is pointed out.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820
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