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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Alex Libman on March 16, 2009, 08:18:41 AM

Title: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on March 16, 2009, 08:18:41 AM
Yeah, I guess the disappointment with KDE 4 and OpenOffice 3 were the last straw.  Perl is dying.   Ruby never got off the ground.  Java still sucks on the desktop.  All open-source projects are just moving too slow.  Compare that to Windows 7, IE8, Visual Studio 2010, Silverlight 3, and PowerShell - Microsoft is finally starting to get the developer tools right.  IronPython is getting to be the fastest implementation available.  Microsoft Office still holds near-universal market dominance.  Etc.

So I'm back in the Redmond camp.  :D

Flame away...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: anarchir on March 16, 2009, 12:56:40 PM
Yay! Before the flamers get here I just want to welcome you back to the land of plenty.
  :twisted:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on March 16, 2009, 03:05:00 PM
lunix has always sucked

let us celebrate you breaking free from the cult of Torvalds! Have you smashed your graven image of a penguin yet, or may I do that for you?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on March 16, 2009, 03:56:50 PM
Damn. It took Visual Studio over two thousand versions before SOMEONE wanted to use it.  :shock:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: theadultsplayground on March 16, 2009, 04:09:05 PM
Hmmm I'm not a big fan of Java either but you are far from correct when you say Linux sucks (and before you call me some fanboy let me say that I'm typing this from my Windows XP workstation). I use Linux (CentOS) on my web servers everyday as they give me less of a headache.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on March 18, 2009, 02:57:28 AM
Oh, I still use the LAMP stack on the server side (occasionally substituting BSD, PostgreSQL, Ruby, etc), and even most apps I use are based on XUL (Firefox, Miro, Komodo IDE, etc) or GTK (Pidgin, etc).  I'm just impressed with Microsoft's desktop offerings and am breaking the ideological "avoid Microsoft" bubble I once had.  Maybe it started during my nuttier Alex Jones days, don't know, and it was certainly strengthened when I saw that police cruiser dashboards are running Win2K...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Dylboz on March 18, 2009, 03:13:25 AM
Mac.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 05, 2009, 05:31:37 PM
Did you guys hear about Internet Explorer 8.1 (http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/31/breaking-internet-explorer-81-eagle-eyes-leaked/) supporting Firefox add-ons? 

And that awesome new sentient DSL (http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/10-4/10-4-Episode-14-Sentient-DSLs/) (Domain-Specific Language)...  Wow...

:lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Russell Griswold on April 05, 2009, 07:31:05 PM
I've been using my Ubuntu partition strictly for puzzle games.  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on April 06, 2009, 04:21:43 PM
If that IE 8.1 is more than an April Fool's Joke, Windows 7 might be a serious contender for me. :S

IE 8.1 Confirmed False -> http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2408
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: prashantpawar on April 07, 2009, 01:37:32 AM
You need to try OS X and Cocoa/ObjectiveC

I own an $800 PC and I have installed OS X on my system. Its amazing, even when you get bored with the eye candies you can never get bored with the sheer responsiveness of the system.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 07, 2009, 01:45:30 AM
Java has always sucked.  Linux has its uses, but MS is the best all around!

Welcome back.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 07, 2009, 02:36:36 AM
I'm actually gonna spend a little time this easter getting an ubuntu partition up and running. Anyone with any experience sharing media ubuntu -> xbox 360?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 07, 2009, 05:58:52 AM
I'm actually gonna spend a little time this easter getting an ubuntu partition up and running. Anyone with any experience sharing media ubuntu -> xbox 360?

Try Wubi first, you wont have to partition

Quote
Wubi is an officially supported Ubuntu installer for Windows users that can bring you to the Linux world with a single click. Wubi allows you to install and uninstall Ubuntu as any other Windows application, in a simple and safe way. Are you curious about Linux and Ubuntu? Trying them out has never been easier!
Download Now

http://wubi-installer.org/ (http://wubi-installer.org/)

And for those who may want to listen to how and why, heres a podcast with the developer of wubi and the man ian credits with inspiring the AMP program leo laporte, which is how i heard about it

http://twit.tv/floss63 (http://twit.tv/floss63)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 07, 2009, 06:04:22 AM
I'm actually gonna spend a little time this easter getting an ubuntu partition up and running. Anyone with any experience sharing media ubuntu -> xbox 360?

Try Wubi first, you wont have to partition

Quote
Wubi is an officially supported Ubuntu installer for Windows users that can bring you to the Linux world with a single click. Wubi allows you to install and uninstall Ubuntu as any other Windows application, in a simple and safe way. Are you curious about Linux and Ubuntu? Trying them out has never been easier!
Download Now

http://wubi-installer.org/ (http://wubi-installer.org/)

And for those who may want to listen to how and why, heres a podcast with the developer of wubi and the man ian credits with inspiring the AMP program leo laporte, which is how i heard about it

http://twit.tv/floss63 (http://twit.tv/floss63)


Thanks, I'll try that. I recon this installer will not keep my existing Windoze partition?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 07, 2009, 06:15:55 AM


Thanks, I'll try that. I recon this installer will not keep my existing Windoze partition?

Never mind, I wrote that before I bothered to actually check for myself :P
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 07, 2009, 06:20:31 AM
I'm actually gonna spend a little time this easter getting an ubuntu partition up and running. Anyone with any experience sharing media ubuntu -> xbox 360?

Try Wubi first, you wont have to partition

Quote
Wubi is an officially supported Ubuntu installer for Windows users that can bring you to the Linux world with a single click. Wubi allows you to install and uninstall Ubuntu as any other Windows application, in a simple and safe way. Are you curious about Linux and Ubuntu? Trying them out has never been easier!
Download Now

http://wubi-installer.org/ (http://wubi-installer.org/)

And for those who may want to listen to how and why, heres a podcast with the developer of wubi and the man ian credits with inspiring the AMP program leo laporte, which is how i heard about it

http://twit.tv/floss63 (http://twit.tv/floss63)


Thanks, I'll try that. I recon this installer will not keep my existing Windoze partition?

Actually, it puts linux into a single file on the windows partition, and gives an option at boot to load the file
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 07, 2009, 06:21:47 AM
I'm actually gonna spend a little time this easter getting an ubuntu partition up and running. Anyone with any experience sharing media ubuntu -> xbox 360?

Try Wubi first, you wont have to partition

Quote
Wubi is an officially supported Ubuntu installer for Windows users that can bring you to the Linux world with a single click. Wubi allows you to install and uninstall Ubuntu as any other Windows application, in a simple and safe way. Are you curious about Linux and Ubuntu? Trying them out has never been easier!
Download Now

http://wubi-installer.org/ (http://wubi-installer.org/)

And for those who may want to listen to how and why, heres a podcast with the developer of wubi and the man ian credits with inspiring the AMP program leo laporte, which is how i heard about it

http://twit.tv/floss63 (http://twit.tv/floss63)


Thanks, I'll try that. I recon this installer will not keep my existing Windoze partition?

Actually, it puts linux into a single file on the windows partition, and gives an option at boot to load the file

n/m i wrote that before i finnished reading the posts
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 07, 2009, 06:30:40 AM
Wubi is very convenient at first, but performance suffers if your host disk gets fragmented.  I've never resized an NTFS partition during Linux / BSD / Solaris install, I've always used something like the EaseUs Partition Master (http://www.partition-tool.com/) (Windows freeware) beforehand.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 07, 2009, 01:26:38 PM
I've usually been pretty happy with Microsoft products, but after having Vista on my laptop I'm at my wits end.  Vista is the biggest piece of shiat OS I've ever used... Well maybe Me was worse, but it's a close call.  And top off that I can't downgrade to XP Pro I'm (for the first time ever) considering Ubuntu or some other distro.  Any recommendations for someone who's never used Linux for a laptop/media center type computer?  I'm actually pretty good with computers, can do a bit of coding, etc.  But, I've never used Linux.  Worked a bit with Unix for a programming class back in college, but that's about it.

How's compatibility with Windows apps and games?  Is there any?  Or do you need applications and games that are built for Linux?  Sorry if these are stupid questions, I'm new to this whole thing...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 07, 2009, 02:01:17 PM
I've usually been pretty happy with Microsoft products, but after having Vista on my laptop I'm at my wits end.  Vista is the biggest piece of shiat OS I've ever used... Well maybe Me was worse, but it's a close call.  And top off that I can't downgrade to XP Pro I'm (for the first time ever) considering Ubuntu or some other distro.  Any recommendations for someone who's never used Linux for a laptop/media center type computer?  I'm actually pretty good with computers, can do a bit of coding, etc.  But, I've never used Linux.  Worked a bit with Unix for a programming class back in college, but that's about it.

How's compatibility with Windows apps and games?  Is there any?  Or do you need applications and games that are built for Linux?  Sorry if these are stupid questions, I'm new to this whole thing...
Get more ram.  They really should have said 2 gigs as the minimum for Vista.  I run 6 gigs and have zero complaints about Vista at all.  It runs faster with 6 gigs of ram than XP did, has more features, and looks prettier.  My laptop thats running vista has 4 gigs of ram, and while its not a speed demon (I never expected it to be in the first place), I don't think it would perform any better on XP.

The biggest differences between the two OS's is the way they manage your memory.  Vista takes advatange of having a lot of it far better than XP did.

If you still want to go to linux, check out kubuntu, but again if you want to enable all the pretty stuff, you'll need ram to do it.  If you don't care about the pretty stuff, then you might prefer the gnome environment over KDE, so just check out ubuntu.

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on April 07, 2009, 02:36:36 PM
Quote
Any recommendations for someone who's never used Linux for a laptop/media center type computer?  I'm actually pretty good with computers, can do a bit of coding, etc.  But, I've never used Linux.

IMO, sometimes it's the people who "are good with computers" who have the most trouble adjusting. A lot of easy with computers comes from familiarity and not logic. Be prepared to be frustrating doing "simple" things for the first little bit and you'll really begin seeing improvements to how you work.

I'm recommend just using Ubuntu. I'd REALLY recommend you download, burn and try a LiveCD. It lets you use Linux without having to install it. Performance kind of sucks compared to a real install because it reads from a CD and not a much faster hard drive. I've heard people remark that a LiveCD session is almost as slow as running Vista with an underpowered laptop.

If you wanna try the LiveCD, download http://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/9.04/ubuntu-9.04-beta-desktop-i386.iso

Burn it with whatever burning app you use.

Put the CD in your PC, reboot. You might have to press F12 at the bootup, select boot from CD.

Have fun.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 07, 2009, 02:40:36 PM
Quote
Any recommendations for someone who's never used Linux for a laptop/media center type computer?  I'm actually pretty good with computers, can do a bit of coding, etc.  But, I've never used Linux.

IMO, sometimes it's the people who "are good with computers" who have the most trouble adjusting. A lot of easy with computers comes from familiarity and not logic. Be prepared to be frustrating doing "simple" things for the first little bit and you'll really begin seeing improvements to how you work.

I'm recommend just using Ubuntu. I'd REALLY recommend you download, burn and try a LiveCD. It lets you use Linux without having to install it. Performance kind of sucks compared to a real install because it reads from a CD and not a much faster hard drive. I've heard people remark that a LiveCD session is almost as slow as running Vista with an underpowered laptop.

If you wanna try the LiveCD, download http://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/9.04/ubuntu-9.04-beta-desktop-i386.iso

Burn it with whatever burning app you use.

Put the CD in your PC, reboot. You might have to press F12 at the bootup, select boot from CD.

Have fun.
I agree, but I'd like to add one suggestion: install VMware if you want to try it out, it will run much faster than a livecd and you can do it from within windows. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 07, 2009, 05:02:24 PM
Vista can run very well on lower-end computers if you disable the crap you don't need, and Windows 7 (get x86 (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4805937/Windows_7_x86_build_7068_AllSKU_version) / x64 (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4806632/Windows_7_7068_x64_____) beta via BT) actually runs a bit faster / lighter / smarter than its predecessor!

Go Control Panel -> System -> Advanced -> Performance -> Settings, and set it for "best performance".  Make sure you have enough virtual memory.  Go Start -> Programs -> Administrative Tools -> Services and set the ones you don't need to manual (Google ones you don't understand).  Get rid of startup items you don't need.  Don't run many different "check for update" services, use one that checks many programs at the same time (i.e. appupdater (http://www.nabber.org/projects/appupdater/), FileHippo (http://www.filehippo.com/updatechecker/), etc). Uninstall unneeded programs.  Pay attention to the task manager (or use procexp.exe from sysinternals (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/0e18b180-9b7a-4c49-8120-c47c5a693683.aspx)) and look which processes use the most total memory and CPU time.  Use lighter programs whenever possible (i.e. VLC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player) instead of DirectShow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectShow) based players, μTorrent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ΜTorrent) instead of Vuze, etc).  If your virus scanner is wasting too much CPU, consider changing its settings.  Defrag.  Use a registry cleaner / optimizer.  And so on.

If you want to use VMware - their free player is missing a lot of good features, but here's a good link to pirate VMware Workstation (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4525689/VMware_Workstation_6.5.1_Build_126130_Final).  You can download lots of pre-installed Linux images from thoughtpolice.co.uk (http://www.thoughtpolice.co.uk/vmware/).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 07, 2009, 06:19:33 PM
Added note:  If you want to use linux as your media center check out MythTV, also Mythbuntu.  Personally I thought that while Myth had a lot of great features, it was crap compared to Windows Media Center.  I have a TV Tuner card that I use in my Media Center desktop and experimented with both.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 07, 2009, 07:05:48 PM
First, this laptop is fairly decent.  HP dv9700 w/ 4GB of dual channel RAM, core duo 2.5Ghz, dual 120GB HD's (no RAID though), 17" w/ HDMI, Blu-ray player, Nvidia 8800 512MB, blah blah...  Not top of the line, but it should be enough to handle Vista.  Overall Vista isn't bad, when it works.  But certain apps will just hang for apparently no reason and when I try to kill them through Task Manager they won't go away and start messing up everything else.  Also, I have a Windows Home Server box set up and my XP computer gives me no problems.  Vista on the other hand will loose connection to the server after a while and I have to reboot the laptop to fix it.  Vista just doesn't seem to play well with XP and Windows Server...

Anyways, thanks for the info.  I'll follow the links and give it a try.  Also, I've heard about VMWare from my friend, I may go that route until I get a good OS setup I like.  I have multiple backups of the laptop on my server so I'm not really afraid to go screwing around.  I just don't want to waste too much time with it.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 07, 2009, 07:32:53 PM
Vista can run very well on lower-end computers if you disable the crap you don't need, and Windows 7 (get x86 (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4805937/Windows_7_x86_build_7068_AllSKU_version) / x64 (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4806632/Windows_7_7068_x64_____) beta via BT) actually runs a bit faster / lighter / smarter than its predecessor!

Go Control Panel -> System -> Advanced -> Performance -> Settings, and set it for "best performance".  Make sure you have enough virtual memory.  Go Start -> Programs -> Administrative Tools -> Services and set the ones you don't need to manual (Google ones you don't understand).  Get rid of startup items you don't need.  Don't run many different "check for update" services, use one that checks many programs at the same time (i.e. appupdater (http://www.nabber.org/projects/appupdater/), FileHippo (http://www.filehippo.com/updatechecker/), etc). Uninstall unneeded programs.  Pay attention to the task manager (or use procexp.exe from sysinternals (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/0e18b180-9b7a-4c49-8120-c47c5a693683.aspx)) and look which processes use the most total memory and CPU time.  Use lighter programs whenever possible (i.e. VLC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player) instead of DirectShow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectShow) based players, μTorrent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ΜTorrent) instead of Vuze, etc).  If your virus scanner is wasting too much CPU, consider changing its settings.  Defrag.  Use a registry cleaner / optimizer.  And so on.

If you want to use VMware - their free player is missing a lot of good features, but here's a good link to pirate VMware Workstation (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4525689/VMware_Workstation_6.5.1_Build_126130_Final).  You can download lots of pre-installed Linux images from thoughtpolice.co.uk (http://www.thoughtpolice.co.uk/vmware/).

Yeah I know how to manage windows...  But those are some good links there, will look into some of the lighter app recommendations.

Will definitely be looking into VMWare too.  A while ago I was considering throwing a basic Linux kernel on and then having it immediately VMWare my OS...   But then I decided to give Vista a fair shake.  At home I use this primarily for media streaming and web browsing.  However, when I'm away from home I play some games on it, as well as Visual Studio, SQL Server, AutoCAD and some other work related apps.  I figured I could set up a few different OS's - one strictly for media playback/web browsing, one for gaming, and one for work...  But again, I'm clueless when it comes to Linux.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on April 07, 2009, 07:47:18 PM
Wubi is very convenient at first, but performance suffers if your host disk gets fragmented.  I've never resized an NTFS partition during Linux / BSD / Solaris install, I've always used something like the EaseUs Partition Master (http://www.partition-tool.com/) (Windows freeware) beforehand.

I've used Gparted in Puppy Linux(live run CD) to "take away" almost all of an NTFS partition containing XP with repeated success.  Then the reclaimed area can be partitioned and used in any way desired.

I've also used Clonezilla to create exact duplicates of drives/contents before sending in the artillery...

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 07, 2009, 07:48:13 PM
Hey, since all the computer guru's are here.  Do any of you know of a good HTTP/FTP download program that has a web/remote interface that I can install on my Windows Server box?  I currently have uTorrent for torrents, eMule for direct p2p, and FileZilla for FTP serving.  But, I don't have anything good for direct HTTP or FTP downloads.  Currently I just Remote Desktop in and start the download, but it would be nice to have a web interface like uTorrent and eMule have...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 07, 2009, 08:16:42 PM
If command line control would be good enough, I'd use Cygwin's ssh server (http://www.petri.co.il/setup-ssh-server-vista.htm) to connect to the other box and control it via command line.  You could ssh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Shell) in using PuTTY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PuTTY) or TeraTerm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tera_Term) (or Cygwin shell on the client PC as well) and issue commands like wget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wget), aria2c (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(software)), and so on.  There also are multi-protocol P2P programs like MLDonkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLDonkey) that can be controlled via command line (or Web, or client apps).  You could also map a drive (http://btjunkie.org/torrent/SftpDrive-v1-7-9-Incl-Keygen/4486e838766e0a7a2318f417068942e643753561b85a) to an ssh server (or use something like WinSCP (http://www.filehippo.com/download_winscp/)) to save torrent / metalink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalink) files to a folder on the other computer where a download program auto-imports them.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 07, 2009, 11:17:27 PM
First, this laptop is fairly decent.  HP dv9700 w/ 4GB of dual channel RAM, core duo 2.5Ghz, dual 120GB HD's (no RAID though), 17" w/ HDMI, Blu-ray player, Nvidia 8800 512MB, blah blah...  Not top of the line, but it should be enough to handle Vista.  Overall Vista isn't bad, when it works.  But certain apps will just hang for apparently no reason and when I try to kill them through Task Manager they won't go away and start messing up everything else.  Also, I have a Windows Home Server box set up and my XP computer gives me no problems.  Vista on the other hand will loose connection to the server after a while and I have to reboot the laptop to fix it.  Vista just doesn't seem to play well with XP and Windows Server...

Anyways, thanks for the info.  I'll follow the links and give it a try.  Also, I've heard about VMWare from my friend, I may go that route until I get a good OS setup I like.  I have multiple backups of the laptop on my server so I'm not really afraid to go screwing around.  I just don't want to waste too much time with it.
I honestly do not think that Vista's the issue here.  I'm thinking its some of the HP software that came installed on your laptop.  I have an HP laptop that runs vista and its got a slower cpu in it than yours (the DV4 64-bit w/Core 2 Duo 2.0 & 4 gigs RAM), yet I don't have any of the issues on it that you describe.  Of course I uninstalled a large portion of the software that came installed on it when I purchased it.

What apps are we talking about when you say that "certain apps will just hang for apparently no reason"  and refuse to be killed in Taskman?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 08, 2009, 01:35:18 AM
Hey, since all the computer guru's are here.  Do any of you know of a good HTTP/FTP download program that has a web/remote interface that I can install on my Windows Server box?  I currently have uTorrent for torrents, eMule for direct p2p, and FileZilla for FTP serving.  But, I don't have anything good for direct HTTP or FTP downloads.  Currently I just Remote Desktop in and start the download, but it would be nice to have a web interface like uTorrent and eMule have...

for command line
wget or curl
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 08, 2009, 01:40:58 AM
I've usually been pretty happy with Microsoft products, but after having Vista on my laptop I'm at my wits end.  Vista is the biggest piece of shiat OS I've ever used... Well maybe Me was worse, but it's a close call.  And top off that I can't downgrade to XP Pro I'm (for the first time ever) considering Ubuntu or some other distro.  Any recommendations for someone who's never used Linux for a laptop/media center type computer?  I'm actually pretty good with computers, can do a bit of coding, etc.  But, I've never used Linux.  Worked a bit with Unix for a programming class back in college, but that's about it.

How's compatibility with Windows apps and games?  Is there any?  Or do you need applications and games that are built for Linux?  Sorry if these are stupid questions, I'm new to this whole thing...

wine works pretty well for windows apps under linux, i run a number of windows ham radio apps using it.

games are another issue.
http://www.linuxgames.com/ (http://www.linuxgames.com/)
http://www.happypenguin.org/ (http://www.happypenguin.org/)
http://whdb.com/2008/top-25-linux-games-for-2008/ (http://whdb.com/2008/top-25-linux-games-for-2008/)
http://rangit.com/software/top-8-linux-games-of-2007/ (http://rangit.com/software/top-8-linux-games-of-2007/)
http://games.linux.sk/ (http://games.linux.sk/)

Office is replaced by openoffice

IE by firefox
outlook by thunderbird
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Jetfire on April 08, 2009, 02:41:38 AM
I personally had a bit of trouble when I first used linux. I work with programmers though and they helped me a lot.  Before I used vista with 8gigs of ram but overtime even with spy ware and anti virus software issues I had compatibility issues and slow functions despite having 64bit vista. Kubuntu has been awesome to use although slightly troublesome at first. I wished I used it a long time ago.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 08, 2009, 03:07:46 AM
Some open source books for free download

worth looking at if youre new to linux/open source
one of my favs is the cathedral and the bazzar

http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=4491 (http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=4491)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 08, 2009, 08:07:19 AM
If command line control would be good enough, I'd use Cygwin's ssh server (http://www.petri.co.il/setup-ssh-server-vista.htm) to connect to the other box and control it via command line.  You could ssh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Shell) in using PuTTY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PuTTY) or TeraTerm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tera_Term) (or Cygwin shell on the client PC as well) and issue commands like wget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wget), aria2c (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(software)), and so on.  There also are multi-protocol P2P programs like MLDonkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLDonkey) that can be controlled via command line (or Web, or client apps).  You could also map a drive (http://btjunkie.org/torrent/SftpDrive-v1-7-9-Incl-Keygen/4486e838766e0a7a2318f417068942e643753561b85a) to an ssh server (or use something like WinSCP (http://www.filehippo.com/download_winscp/)) to save torrent / metalink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalink) files to a folder on the other computer where a download program auto-imports them.

Thanks Alex.  I currently have uTorrent setup with both web UI and monitored folders.  If every program worked as nicely as uTorrent does I'd be a happy camper.   I did try installing MLDonkey a few weeks ago, but I didn't notice the FTP/HTTP transfer capability.  I'll definitely be checking it out again...  And hell if it handles Torrents well, I may just rid of uTorrent - one less service to load up.

Now when you map a drive to a SSH server and say you initiate a download from the web.  Does this download go from Web -> Client -> Server.  Or from Web -> Server?  Cuz, I really want the server to handle all the downloading.  The client would just tell the server what to get.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 08, 2009, 08:19:27 AM
I honestly do not think that Vista's the issue here.  I'm thinking its some of the HP software that came installed on your laptop.  I have an HP laptop that runs vista and its got a slower cpu in it than yours (the DV4 64-bit w/Core 2 Duo 2.0 & 4 gigs RAM), yet I don't have any of the issues on it that you describe.  Of course I uninstalled a large portion of the software that came installed on it when I purchased it.

What apps are we talking about when you say that "certain apps will just hang for apparently no reason"  and refuse to be killed in Taskman?

I think your right about the HP bloatware that comes installed.  I've been slowly disabling/uninstalling the HP crap and things seem to be working a little better.  One thing that happens regularly is that when I'm streaming music from my server to the laptop using Winamp and for some reason the laptop looses connection to the server.  Winamp will freeze up and refuse to be killed in the Task Manager.  I must reboot to use Winamp again.  Another issue is that the laptop sometimes just looses connection to the internet and the local server (through my router both wireless and wired - although it seems to happen mostly when wireless).  It's not my ISP, because I can go to my XP box and everything works fine.  I have to reboot the laptop to get it working again.  The Cyberlink DVD player that came with it has crashed/refused to be killed a few times.  Now, I just use windows media player for DVD playing - works way better anyways.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 08, 2009, 08:59:40 AM
Now when you map a drive to a SSH server and say you initiate a download from the web.  Does this download go from Web -> Client -> Server.  Or from Web -> Server?  Cuz, I really want the server to handle all the downloading.  The client would just tell the server what to get.  Thanks.

If you're using SftpDrive [SITE] (http://www.expandrive.com/windows) [WP] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SftpDrive) [BT] (http://btjunkie.org/torrent/SftpDrive-v1-7-9-Incl-Keygen/4486e838766e0a7a2318f417068942e643753561b85a) (now called ExpanDrive on PC as well) then it creates a new virtual drive (ex Z:) that is accessible from any Windows program (including Cygwin-based program as /cygdrive/z).  If for example you have your Web browser save a .torrent file to a directory on such a drive, that file is saved there as if it was on your own computer, though your browser might create / delete a local temp file transparently to the user.  It's a very useful program, one of the very few ShareWare apps I've actually legally registered.  (And I still pirate VisualStudio!)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on April 08, 2009, 01:51:47 PM

Puppy Linux 4.2 is out and looking good

wouldn't hurt to burn a copy for the glovebox, briefcase, or backpack...

http://www.puppylinux.org/downloads/official-releases/puppy-linux-42-deep-thought

enjoy!

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 08, 2009, 02:14:12 PM
I just installed Ubuntu on my box. Unfortunately, this box was excavated by archeologists and dated to about 2.000BC, so it's running really sluggish. I'm downloading Kubuntu and will try that, would you über nerds agree that that's a good call, or are there any other distros that a hopeless n00b like should try in such a circumstance?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on April 08, 2009, 02:29:22 PM
I prefer Linux as a development platform as all the core languages (C, C++, C#/Mono, Java (admit it, it's good for some crap!), Python, and etc) pretty much run well on it compared to having to supplicate to the assholes from Redmond. Windows is good for one thing and only one thing: Games.

End of line.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on April 08, 2009, 02:45:59 PM
I just installed Ubuntu on my box. Unfortunately, this box was excavated by archeologists and dated to about 2.000BC, so it's running really sluggish. I'm downloading Kubuntu and will try that, would you über nerds agree that that's a good call, or are there any other distros that a hopeless n00b like should try in such a circumstance?

what did you think of puppy linux?

I've looked at well over a dozen different distros and still like the puppy!

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on April 08, 2009, 02:46:38 PM
I just installed Ubuntu on my box. Unfortunately, this box was excavated by archeologists and dated to about 2.000BC, so it's running really sluggish. I'm downloading Kubuntu and will try that, would you über nerds agree that that's a good call, or are there any other distros that a hopeless n00b like should try in such a circumstance?

what did you think of puppy linux?

I've looked at well over a dozen different distros and still like the puppy!



Crunchbang > Puppy, nuff said.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 08, 2009, 07:34:02 PM
I just installed Ubuntu on my box. Unfortunately, this box was excavated by archeologists and dated to about 2.000BC, so it's running really sluggish. I'm downloading Kubuntu and will try that, would you über nerds agree that that's a good call, or are there any other distros that a hopeless n00b like should try in such a circumstance?
The KDE environment (kubuntu) has more "pretty" features and will run slower than Gnome (ubuntu).  Easiest thing to do is add more ram, if you're running under 1 gig of it all of the "pretty" things are just gonna lag your box.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 08, 2009, 07:43:20 PM
I just installed Ubuntu on my box. Unfortunately, this box was excavated by archeologists and dated to about 2.000BC, so it's running really sluggish. I'm downloading Kubuntu and will try that, would you über nerds agree that that's a good call, or are there any other distros that a hopeless n00b like should try in such a circumstance?
The KDE environment (kubuntu) has more "pretty" features and will run slower than Gnome (ubuntu).  Easiest thing to do is add more ram, if you're running under 1 gig of it all of the "pretty" things are just gonna lag your box.

Yeah, I most definitely found out. And it's an ugly little bastard as well. I tried it out for five minutes and downloaded Xubuntu. So now I've been through three versions of Ubuntu in one day. I think I should get a life.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 08, 2009, 07:58:06 PM
I just installed Ubuntu on my box. Unfortunately, this box was excavated by archeologists and dated to about 2.000BC, so it's running really sluggish. I'm downloading Kubuntu and will try that, would you über nerds agree that that's a good call, or are there any other distros that a hopeless n00b like should try in such a circumstance?
The KDE environment (kubuntu) has more "pretty" features and will run slower than Gnome (ubuntu).  Easiest thing to do is add more ram, if you're running under 1 gig of it all of the "pretty" things are just gonna lag your box.

Yeah, I most definitely found out. And it's an ugly little bastard as well. I tried it out for five minutes and downloaded Xubuntu. So now I've been through three versions of Ubuntu in one day. I think I should get a life.
It looks more barebones so it should run faster, although I have no experience with it.  Keep us updated!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 08, 2009, 08:26:59 PM
Ok, another app just crashed and won't be killed.

FreeDownloadManager - fdm.exe

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 08, 2009, 08:50:46 PM
Ok, another app just crashed and won't be killed.

FreeDownloadManager - fdm.exe


Yeah, don't use that junk.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 09, 2009, 07:58:40 AM
Ok, so I installed MLDonkey on my WHS box last night.  Two problems were encountered.  First, I couldn't figure out how to set up the torrent folders into a different path.  They seemed to be fixed under the program directory.  The OS partition is only 20gb.  I guess I could move the entire directory to my shared drive pool (ugly solution but hey), but that leads to the next problem.  The second problem I encountered was when I set up the Incoming_Files and Incoming_Directories folders onto the Drive Extender partition it was giving me a large negative number like -123143458234  or something like that for the amount of free space.  But the drive pool has around 1.8TB free.  Now when I would start a download it would report that the drive is full and it's placing it in the queue.  Is there anyway of disabling this feature?  Just write to the disk regardless of how much free space it thinks is left?  It kind of bummed me out because it was looking pretty promising at first.  I'll check out some of the other links provided.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Icculi on April 09, 2009, 08:11:15 AM
Ok, another app just crashed and won't be killed.

FreeDownloadManager - fdm.exe


Yeah, don't use that junk.

Actually, that's the first time I've ever had problems with the program.   I use it all the time to pull down large (4GB+) GIS files off the web at work.   Works pretty well.  The crash occurred when I clicked the icon to browse to a folder to save to.  It seems a lot of the Vista problems I have are related to the new Common Dialog box (browse for files, folders, etc...).  Is there any way of getting the old one back?  Nonetheless, an application crash is one thing but being unable to kill the crashed process in the Task Manager is something completely different IMO.  Oh, and I've tried other Task Manager type programs like the sysinternals process explorer mentioned above with the same results.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 09, 2009, 09:34:01 AM
Goddamn, linux is really starting to rule on userfriendliness. I've just gotten my Xubuntu running great straight out of the box, have installed Spotify through Wine easily, have mounted the NTFS partition where I keep my media just by editing fstab a bit, and have just managed to share the media with my 360 without any hassle whatsoever. And on my prehistoric box, the Xubuntu smoothly. Good bye, Windows!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 09, 2009, 10:34:53 AM
Goddamn, linux is really starting to rule on userfriendliness. I've just gotten my Xubuntu running great straight out of the box, have installed Spotify through Wine easily, have mounted the NTFS partition where I keep my media just by editing fstab a bit, and have just managed to share the media with my 360 without any hassle whatsoever. And on my prehistoric box, the Xubuntu smoothly. Good bye, Windows!

Welcome to the world of linux
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on April 09, 2009, 02:18:28 PM
Goddamn, linux is really starting to rule on userfriendliness. I've just gotten my Xubuntu running great straight out of the box, have installed Spotify through Wine easily, have mounted the NTFS partition where I keep my media just by editing fstab a bit, and have just managed to share the media with my 360 without any hassle whatsoever. And on my prehistoric box, the Xubuntu smoothly. Good bye, Windows!

just wait til you've tried puppy linux 4.2

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Jetfire on April 09, 2009, 02:32:30 PM
Goddamn, linux is really starting to rule on userfriendliness. I've just gotten my Xubuntu running great straight out of the box, have installed Spotify through Wine easily, have mounted the NTFS partition where I keep my media just by editing fstab a bit, and have just managed to share the media with my 360 without any hassle whatsoever. And on my prehistoric box, the Xubuntu smoothly. Good bye, Windows!

just wait til you've tried puppy linux 4.2



puppy linux or any others it doesnt really matter. each person has there own distro they like
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 09, 2009, 03:04:27 PM
Goddamn, linux is really starting to rule on userfriendliness. I've just gotten my Xubuntu running great straight out of the box, have installed Spotify through Wine easily, have mounted the NTFS partition where I keep my media just by editing fstab a bit, and have just managed to share the media with my 360 without any hassle whatsoever. And on my prehistoric box, the Xubuntu smoothly. Good bye, Windows!

just wait til you've tried puppy linux 4.2

I'll definitely try it some time, but now I'm sticking with my wonderful Xubuntu. By the way, what's your part in this puppy linux thing, just a satisfied user or are you involved somehow? ;)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 09, 2009, 08:27:41 PM
Goddamn, linux is really starting to rule on userfriendliness. I've just gotten my Xubuntu running great straight out of the box, have installed Spotify through Wine easily, have mounted the NTFS partition where I keep my media just by editing fstab a bit, and have just managed to share the media with my 360 without any hassle whatsoever. And on my prehistoric box, the Xubuntu smoothly. Good bye, Windows!

just wait til you've tried puppy linux 4.2

I'll definitely try it some time, but now I'm sticking with my wonderful Xubuntu. By the way, what's your part in this puppy linux thing, just a satisfied user or are you involved somehow? ;)

I just saw there is a puppy linux retro for older machines
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 02:22:16 PM
Um, this is a Windows thread.  Please don't get too carried away with the Linux chit-chat, there are plenty of other places for that.


Ok, so I installed MLDonkey on my WHS box last night.  [...]

Sorry, I haven't used MLDonkey extensively, and never with Windows.  I just brought it up as a possible solution.  Hope you can get help with it elsewhere.


Ok, another app just crashed and won't be killed.

FreeDownloadManager - fdm.exe

If an app crashes - don't use it.  Try different ones to decide which one works best for you.  I use Orbit Downloader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_Downloader) when I really need a download manager (i.e. accelerate a large .iso), but Firefox with Download Statusbar (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/26) gets the job done the vast majority of the time.  Use physical folders for categorization.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 02:36:24 PM
Um, this is a Windows thread.  Please don't get too carried away with the Linux chit-chat, there are plenty of other places for that.


Ok, so I installed MLDonkey on my WHS box last night.  [...]

Sorry, I haven't used MLDonkey extensively, and never with Windows.  I just brought it up as a possible solution.  Hope you can get help with it elsewhere.


Ok, another app just crashed and won't be killed.

FreeDownloadManager - fdm.exe

If an app crashes - don't use it.  Try different ones to decide which one works best for you.  I use Orbit Downloader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_Downloader) when I really need a download manager (i.e. accelerate a large .iso), but Firefox with Download Statusbar (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/26) gets the job done the vast majority of the time.  Use physical folders for categorization.

Yes a windows thread saying something sucks. As such, said "suckish item" is open to defense
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 02:39:28 PM
And while we are on it, windows since NT 3.51 has been a "closed" version of a unix kernel, so now its just a matter of you're love of a particular window manager.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 03:59:57 PM
Window manager, virtual machine (CLR), application stack, business solutions, and so on.  Microsoft Office and Visual Studio are still tops, and I expect Silverlight to give Flash a serious run for its money a couple of years from now.

Microsoft has been investing tens of billions into R&D all over the world lately, and it's finally starting to pay off.  You should check out some Microsoft propaganda feeds:  ch9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/Media/Videos/feed/wmv/), ch10 (http://on10.net/feeds/rss/), OnMicrosoft (http://www.informit.com/podcasts/index_rss.aspx?c=8), WindowsClient.net (http://windowsclient.net/blogs/MainFeed.aspx?GroupID=11&Type=AllBlogs), etc (especially the first two).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 04:16:10 PM
Window manager, virtual machine (CLR), application stack, business solutions, and so on.  Microsoft Office and Visual Studio are still tops, and I expect Silverlight to give Flash a serious run for its money a couple of years from now.

Microsoft has been investing tens of billions into R&D all over the world lately, and it's finally starting to pay off.  You should check out some Microsoft propaganda feeds:  ch9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/Media/Videos/feed/wmv/), ch10 (http://on10.net/feeds/rss/), OnMicrosoft (http://www.informit.com/podcasts/index_rss.aspx?c=8), WindowsClient.net (http://windowsclient.net/blogs/MainFeed.aspx?GroupID=11&Type=AllBlogs), etc (especially the first two).


No thanks, im quite happy with debian/gnome
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 04:21:34 PM
The vast majority of people doing office work are not.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 04:22:13 PM
Window manager, virtual machine (CLR), application stack, business solutions, and so on.  Microsoft Office and Visual Studio are still tops, and I expect Silverlight to give Flash a serious run for its money a couple of years from now.

Microsoft has been investing tens of billions into R&D all over the world lately, and it's finally starting to pay off.  You should check out some Microsoft propaganda feeds:  ch9 (http://channel9.msdn.com/Media/Videos/feed/wmv/), ch10 (http://on10.net/feeds/rss/), OnMicrosoft (http://www.informit.com/podcasts/index_rss.aspx?c=8), WindowsClient.net (http://windowsclient.net/blogs/MainFeed.aspx?GroupID=11&Type=AllBlogs), etc (especially the first two).


Until there is something i can't do with opensource that i have to have windows for then we can talk about it, as it stands, propaganda is propaganda and its wasted on me
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 04:25:10 PM
The vast majority of people doing office work are not.


Thats funny, the last office i dealt with NRS was extremely happy with debian and the increase of productivity by 150%
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 04:45:03 PM
And the last office I've dealt with was a freaking jungle: like 3 indoor palms per cubicle.  It also had bowls of fruit and cats living there 24/7.  I'm sure it's not representative of all offices out there in the world.  And neither is your experience at NRS.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 05:11:59 PM
And the last office I've dealt with was a freaking jungle: like 3 indoor palms per cubicle.  It also had bowls of fruit and cats living there 24/7.  I'm sure it's not representative of all offices out there in the world.  And neither is your experience at NRS.


actually, as a multi site call center it was, 500 employees, ditched cisco phone switches with asterisks, office with open offce, XP with debian, novell with imap and thunderbird, and added SugarCRM for contact managment and autodial system 

budget for the year was 5 million, spent 145k to get rid off all those crap license fees
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on April 11, 2009, 05:13:06 PM
They all suck.

That said, I will use whatever. I am really starting to like hypervisors. VMware has a good lead on everyone else, but the others will catch up. Microsoft is just getting into the game with Hyper-V.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 05:27:20 PM
NuroSlam, I wasn't talking about the size of your last office, I was saying it is an exception.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 05:47:03 PM
The difference is, im not saying anything sucks, what I am saying is that for me, I have more freedom to do what I want to do with linux then M$, and from a business standpoint, where the dollar is the bottom line, it makes more sense to replace costly M$ license fee's with opensource software whenever possible.

Windows is a nice windows manager, and yes, most people are comfortable with it. Myself, I like to do things in the most efficient manner, be it console or windowed. when I need window managing and heavy console use I switch to Rat Poison as a window manager, but, as I am no longer in the IT arena, i use gnome because my wife likes it and was an easy switch for her when her 98 box died and had to rely on my laptop.

To say linux is no more secure then windows just not a target of the script kiddies is disingenuous, just take the results of the hackers bowl, where the finest system cracks gather to win money.

Quote
It's the most anticipated matchup in the hacker world: Linux versus Mac OS X versus Vista. Who will get hacked first?

That's what organizers of the CanSecWest security conference hope to discover this week as they give show attendees a shot at hacking into the three laptops they've put on display here in Vancouver.

The catch? They have to use a brand-new 'zero day' attack that nobody has seen before. The prize? US$20,000, plus you get to keep the laptop.

Show organizers are calling the contest PWN 2 OWN. Pwn (which rhymes with own) is a hacker term meaning to take control of a computer.

$20,000 may sound like a lot of money, but show attendees say that top-quality computer attack code could easily fetch that much, either from the security vendors like iDefense or Tipping Point who purchase this type of software, or from one of the three-letter U.S. government agencies said to be in the market for this type of code as well.

Charlie Miller, best known as one of the Independent Security Evaluators researchers who first hacked the iPhone last year, said he's participating, not for the cash prize, but for the thrill of seeing whether or not he can be first to hack one of the computers. "For me it's the Super Bowl of security research," he said. "I'm a competitive guy."

By late Wednesday -- the first day of the contest, nobody had even tried to hack the three laptops. This wasn't exactly a surprise to the contest's organizers because on day one attackers were only allowed to use network-based attacks that involved no user interaction. Those type of attacks are extremely rare these days.

Miller said that he will drop his exploit code on the MacBook Air Thursday, once the rules relax a bit and the hackers are allowed to try attacks that require user action such as visiting a malicious Web site or opening an e-mail.

There is a downside to waiting until Thursday, however. The prize money drops in half each day. If no one has claimed the laptops by Friday, the prize bottoms out at $5,000 and organizers will start installing non-standard software on the machines to see if they can be compromised through programs such as Skype.

Last year's contest generated a lot of attention, but it featured only one laptop: a MacBook Pro. It was won by researcher Dino Dai Zovi, who wasn't at the conference, but asked a friend to run his attack on the machine. Dai Zovi showed up in person at CanSecWest this year, however, making him another prime candidate to win the prize.

With three laptops to chose from, this year, the 2008 contest is a bit of a horse race.

"It will be interesting to see which one goes first," said Aaron Portnoy, a researcher with TippingPoint, the company that has put up the prize money. "We've tried really hard to make sure the attack surface is the same on all of them."

and the results?
Quote
After a week full of Red Bulls, Fruit by the Foot and dreams of In-N-Out, the mighty Sony VAIO loaded with Linux stood as the only machine unhacked by the end of the PWN 2 OWN hacking contest at CanSecWest. As you're well aware by now, the MacBook Air on display was seized in two minutes by the presumably well prepared Charlie Miller, and after two full days of work, Shane Macaulay and a few of his 1337 associates managed to crack the Vista rig on Friday. Reportedly, Shane and his pals weren't expecting to do battle with the extra protected SP1 version of Vista, and while the exact loophole won't be divulged, we are told that it was a cross-platform bug that "took advantage of Java to circumvent Vista's security." In the end, it was reported that some folks on hand had discovered bugs in the Linux OS, but many of them "didn't want to put the work into developing the exploit code that would be required to win the contest."

The finest crackers in the world disagree with you
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 05:52:38 PM
NuroSlam, I wasn't talking about the size of your last office, I was saying it is an exception.

In my IT past, it was not the exception, it was the norm, the difference was that before i/we as a crew would take a job, we would make it clear it was our way or the highway, and with routinely saving companies millions in IT costs we had the clout to do it. Not only would we save IT money but we always found a way to make IT profitable. as an example "hey, since your doing medical billing, why not have a HIPPA compliant service to offer them and make billing easier while selling EMR services, oh, by the way, we have an opensource HIPA server up an running to DEMO for ya"
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 06:18:45 PM
There's a lot of selection bias when it comes to security tests like this: if Linux had a distro that was preconfigured for the same things Microsoft deliberately preconfigures Windows for, its security would suffer also.  And hackers tend to help patch up the Linux / BSD security holes they discover while exploiting the Windows ones.  If give a choice between security and market share, Microsoft will choose market share every time.  I'm sure its investors and employees are grateful.

And its true that the open-source world has learned to do some things very well, but Microsoft continued to move ahead.  Look at the products it has in the pipeline...  Does Linux have anything close to Silverlight 3?  Heck, does it even have a good IDE or BitTorrent client that isn't written in Java?  (Best options come from KDE-land Kdevelop and Ktorrent, and they can't compete with what Windows has to offer.)  And is anyone gonna rewrite the Linux kernel for JVM any time soon?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 06:33:14 PM
There's a lot of selection bias when it comes to security tests like this: if Linux had a distro that was preconfigured for the same things Microsoft deliberately preconfigures Windows for, its security would suffer also.  And hackers tend to help patch up the Linux / BSD security holes they discover while exploiting the Windows ones.  If give a choice between security and market share, Microsoft will choose market share every time.  I'm sure its investors and employees are grateful.


I'm sure they are, but as a systems engineer, I'll take adaptability over "market share". I left he windows platform long ago (3.11)  for just that very reason, and have never regretted it leaving it behind nor the money i have made from it has brought me. as an example: 50k site license per year for a cisco/avaya phone system, or 7k for a blade server running asterisks/sugarCRM and 3 times the auto dial volume with no license fee.

Im sure if M$ windows were open source the patches would be just as common from the community
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 06:58:37 PM
Your VoIP example is off-point - I'm praising Microsoft recent desktop-related enhancements in this thread, not Cisco / Avaya.

And I still use LAMP-related technologies on the server-site for all cases where I had a choice.  I've never used it for CRM though: every client I've worked with used Oracle or Microsoft.  Plus I hear Sugar is slow, doesn't scale well, and its GPL v3 scares me.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on April 11, 2009, 07:08:53 PM
There's a lot of selection bias when it comes to security tests like this: if Linux had a distro that was preconfigured for the same things Microsoft deliberately preconfigures Windows for, its security would suffer also.  And hackers tend to help patch up the Linux / BSD security holes they discover while exploiting the Windows ones.  If give a choice between security and market share, Microsoft will choose market share every time.  I'm sure its investors and employees are grateful.


I'm sure they are, but as a systems engineer, I'll take adaptability over "market share". I left he windows platform long ago (3.11)  for just that very reason, and have never regretted it leaving it behind nor the money i have made from it has brought me. as an example: 50k site license per year for a cisco/avaya phone system, or 7k for a blade server running asterisks/sugarCRM and 3 times the auto dial volume with no license fee.

Im sure if M$ windows were open source the patches would be just as common from the community
Eh Windows 3.1 was junk, I always preferred MSDOSSHELL to 3.1 back then. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 11, 2009, 07:26:19 PM
There's a lot of selection bias when it comes to security tests like this: if Linux had a distro that was preconfigured for the same things Microsoft deliberately preconfigures Windows for, its security would suffer also.  And hackers tend to help patch up the Linux / BSD security holes they discover while exploiting the Windows ones.  If give a choice between security and market share, Microsoft will choose market share every time.  I'm sure its investors and employees are grateful.


I'm sure they are, but as a systems engineer, I'll take adaptability over "market share". I left he windows platform long ago (3.11)  for just that very reason, and have never regretted it leaving it behind nor the money i have made from it has brought me. as an example: 50k site license per year for a cisco/avaya phone system, or 7k for a blade server running asterisks/sugarCRM and 3 times the auto dial volume with no license fee.

Im sure if M$ windows were open source the patches would be just as common from the community
Eh Windows 3.1 was junk, I always preferred MSDOSSHELL to 3.1 back then. 

yes 3.1 was junk, 3.11 (WFW windows for workgroups) was just a touch better, but thats when i got turned onto slackware (kernel 0.99 still have the disks) and i never looked back. I do have a friend that to this day still uses 3.11 (on a 2 ghz machine, theres nothing faster and nothing that works with it!)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 11, 2009, 08:10:09 PM
yes 3.1 was junk, 3.11 (WFW windows for workgroups) was just a touch better, but thats when i got turned onto slackware (kernel 0.99 still have the disks) and i never looked back. I do have a friend that to this day still uses 3.11 (on a 2 ghz machine, theres nothing faster and nothing that works with it!)

Windows 3.1 ain't dead!  You can still surf the Web with IE5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_5), download / view Usenet porn with the 16-bit version of SBNews (http://www.sb-software.com/sbnews/), play MP3's and even video streams, etc (http://www.win31.de/software.htm) - what more do you need?

Heck, even DOS has the DJGPP system with ports of emacs, perl, and so on.

Heck, all you need to have a fully functional system is a dumb ANSI terminal.

:lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on April 21, 2009, 06:31:01 PM
(I'd like to move this reply here from another thread (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=28871.0).)


the problem is, you're not using OpenOffice.

Yeah, I forgot that 2004 is gonna be the "Year for Desktop Linux".  And OpenOffice v3 isn't going to suck.  And KDE 4 will totally put the nail in Microsoft's coffin.  I can't wait!  :lol:


[...] the boys at Redmond decided to pull the rug from under many users [...]

"Mainstream support for Office 2003 application ends in April 2009 and extended support ends in January 2014."  [WP] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_2003)  I think Microsoft would extend those dates further if there was market pressure to do so.  That's a reasonable amount of time to work out your issues with Office 2007 (which is very customizable, BTW), or switch to a competing product.  And you can always just continue using it and get your support somewhere else, like you do with open-source software.  Your criticism of Office 2007's features may be valid, but the phrase I've quoted is an overreaction.


[...]  some boys at Google could get the Google Docs stuff up to snuff in a jiffy [...]

Google will not be able to knock Microsoft out because there's nothing particularly special about Google when it comes to desktop applications, and most types of browser-based apps as well.  Their key assets all have to do with getting millions (yes, millions!) of search servers to crunch data better / faster / cheaper than their competition.  Most of their revenue comes from ads, which are very easily to bypass; heck, you can even search through proxy and never even give them your IP!  Even Google's browser is based on open-source technology, which means if their AdWords code gets annoying people can just switch to another fork.  They have a lot of talent and capital, but they still have a lot of work to do before they can even dream of catching Microsoft.  Within the context of the current market offerings, they'd need to merge with Adobe (key asset: Flash) and maybe even Apple to have a shot.

Microsoft has a full product stack, and their products all complement each-other.  Office benefits from Windows, Visual Studio, Exchange, IIS, SQL Server, IE / Silverlight, and so on.  An average fifth-grader uses Microsoft products (X-Box, Windows, IE, Works, Live, etc) several hours a day, while even if they use Google they only stay on their site a few seconds.  This gives Microsoft tremendous advantage in getting their hooks into their users: not just for speculative ad revenue, which can dry up if with a new fad that blocks Google's ads, but also for licenses bought with hard cash.  The open source movement actually benefits Microsoft, by making mediocre products that hurt their would-be competitors while they're still in larval stages of development, but don't hurt Microsoft because is has the R&D capital to stay ahead, whether that means software or services or hardware or whatever else.  (The history of Nokia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia#Pre-telecommunications_era) dates back to a paper mill!)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on April 21, 2009, 07:02:50 PM

two more days til Ubuntu 9.04

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on April 25, 2009, 09:06:32 AM
I tried the "Jaunty Jackalope" beta.  It sucked.  Ubuntu is losing its edge over Fedora (newer stuff) and SUSE (noob tools).  But there's still just no rational reason to switch from Windows.




Oh, and ...

... here's what you append to all your forum posts if you want every person viewing them to hammer maqs.com for ~8MB of bandwidth: 

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:twisted:

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 25, 2009, 11:21:50 AM
I tried the "Jaunty Jackalope" beta.  It sucked.  Ubuntu is losing its edge over Fedora (newer stuff) and SUSE (noob tools).  But there's still just no rational reason to switch from Windows.


I did the 9.04 upgrade on theshared laptop in the house, systems now unbootable

my distro progression is slackware/redhat/debian/ubuntu

going back to debian
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on April 25, 2009, 11:31:38 AM
From Slashdot -- Windows 7 To Include "Windows XP Mode" (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/25/1135211&art_pos=1) --

Quote
[...]  Windows 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7) will include a built-in virtual machine with a fully licensed copy of Windows XP Professional SP3 (http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/04/24/secret-no-more-revealing-virtual-windows-xp-for-windows-7.aspx). The VM runs in a modified version of Virtual PC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Virtual_PC), and applications running in the VM can interact directly with the host operating system as if they were running on the Windows 7 installation itself. While details are scarce for now, it looks as if this feature will only be available as a (free) addon for Professional, Enterprise and Ultimate editions of Windows 7. Also, a processor supporting hardware virtualization will be required, indicating that this is perhaps aimed more at power users and corporate users, rather than consumers. Microsoft confirmed the feature (http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/business/archive/2009/04/24/coming-soon-windows-xp-mode-and-windows-virtual-pc.aspx) last night.

This means easier migration path for some businesses and better security controls for old apps.  How good is Linux at running ~10-year-old binaries?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on April 25, 2009, 12:57:28 PM
a lot of my HAM software is over 10 years old and I have 0 problems
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on April 26, 2009, 06:12:12 AM

two more days til Ubuntu 9.04



I upgraded my Xubuntu to 9.04 yesterday, and so far the only change around here is that the native Firefox is actually usuable., and that Java eats a whole lot more memory when i run Azureus/Vuze than it did under 8.04.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on April 28, 2009, 11:47:18 PM
From Slashdot -- IE8 Released As Critical Update For XP (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/28/2322248) --

Quote
[...]  Microsoft is listing IE8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_8) as a critical update (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patch_(computing)) to Windows XP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP).  CNet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNET_Networks) reported a couple of weeks back that Microsoft would be rolling our IE8 to users in a gradual fashion (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10218185-56.html), and requiring an opt-in before installing it.

Opinion has been split as to whether IE8 is worth installing (http://www.pcworld.com/article/163902/ie_8_its_security_is_worth_the_download.html) or not (http://blogs.computerworld.com/why_you_should_not_install_internet_explorer_8).  [...]  For those not interested in upgrading to IE8 at this time, the MSDN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Developer_Network) released information back in January on how to keep IE8 off your machine (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/01/06/ie8-blocker-toolkit-available-today.aspx).


This will be good for Microsoft's browser market share (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers), since some people who didn't like v6/7 will now switch back.  Firefox 3.1 3.5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Firefox_3#Version_3.5) is running late, and everyone has gotten over Chrome / Safari 4 already.  I'd bet IE will pass above 75% again next month, then decline again, then gradually rise again as Windows 7 is released.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Jetfire on April 28, 2009, 11:49:42 PM
anyone tried opensuse? i've used ubuntu, xubuntu, linux mint, and i wanna try opnesuse. I love all linux distros far above any windows i've used growing up. Granted a bit of a learning curve but far better imo. any opinions on opensuse?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: slayerboy on April 29, 2009, 09:49:42 AM
Say what you will about Ubuntu, but I've convinced 2 people already to move from Windows to Linux Mint.  Yes, the base is Ubuntu, but it is so polished and just works, even wireless.  It saved both these people from having to buy new computers, and it's safer for them.  They still have antivirus software and a firewall of course, but they say their systems are running much faster.

For the average computer user who just surfs the net and plays online flash-based games, answers email, IM's, Linux will work fine for these people, especially Linux Mint.  For us "geeks" who think Linux Mint is too user-friendly and hand-holding, then there are alternatives.  I agree Ubuntu is getting to be utter crap lately, but I'm impressed with Linux Mint and some of the other forks of ubuntu that haven't been eaten by Canonical.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on April 29, 2009, 10:05:33 AM
anyone tried opensuse?

My enthusiasm for it has declined over the past couple of years.  Sure, it's a good disto for n00bs and people who want the best chance of all their laptop hardware being supported right off the bat, but many things about it annoy the hell out of me.  Probably the most important thing about a distro is its package management - that's where Ubuntu and Gentoo come out ahead, for binaries and source installation respectively.  SUSE managed to have an slower package manager than Fedora's yum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_dog_Updater,_Modified), which pissed me off quite a bit - and that's before you add a dozen different repositories to get all the stuff you need.  You can use alternative package manages (ex. smart), but they're just as bad.  YaST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet_another_Setup_Tool) is addictive and leaves you unable to do jack shit on other distros.



From Slashdot -- Microsoft To Disable Autorun (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/29/2110241) --

Quote
Microsoft is planning to disable autorun (http://blogs.technet.com/msrc/archive/2009/04/28/changes-in-windows-to-meet-changes-in-threat-landscape.aspx) in the next Release Candidate of Windows 7 and future updates to Windows XP and Vista. In order to maintain a 'balance between security and usability', non-writable media will maintain its current behavior however. In any case, if it means no more autorun on flash drives, removable hard drives and network shares, that is definitely a step in the right direction. Will be interesting to see what malware creators do to get around this ...

Another good move.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on April 30, 2009, 11:40:37 AM
From Slashdot -- Windows 7 Will Be Free For a Year (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/30/1352249) --

Quote
Microsoft is effectively giving away Windows 7 free for a year (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/252181/windows-7-free-for-a-year.html) with the launch of the Release Candidate. The Release Candidate is now available to MSDN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Developer_Network) and TechNet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_TechNet) subscribers, and will go on unlimited, general release on 5 May. The software will not expire until 1 June 2010, giving testers more than a year's free access to Windows 7.

"It's available to as many people who see fit to use it, although we wouldn't recommend it to just your average user," John Curran, director of the Windows Client Group told PC Pro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Pro). "We'd very strongly encourage anyone on the beta to move to the Release Candidate."
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on May 23, 2009, 10:42:09 PM
From Slashdot -- Windows 7 Sets Direction of Low-Power CPU Market (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/23/188245) --

Quote
News is circulating about Microsoft setting hardware limits (http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2859) for the Windows 7 Starter Edition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions#Comparison_chart) rather than sticking to a 3-application limit (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/21/1356245&tid=201).

With just a few simple specifications, Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft) has set the tech world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_technology) spinning - not only is Microsoft deciding that a netbook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook) is now defined as having a 10.2-in. or smaller screen, but by setting a 15-watt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(power)) limit to CPU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_processing_unit) thermal dissipation they may have inadvertently set the direction of CPU technology (http://pcper.com/comments.php?nid=7203) for years to come.

If Microsoft sticks to that licensing spec, then AMD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices), Intel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Corporation), VIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies), and maybe even NVIDIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia) (who might be building an x86 CPU (http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/08/0918259&tid=142)) will no doubt put a new focus on power efficiency in order to cash in on the lucrative netbook market.

Another smart move.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: travisbickle on May 24, 2009, 04:30:03 AM

Ubuntu is like un-upgradeable. I've upgraded in the past and ran into all kinds of problems. You have to just install clean and transfer information its a pain in the ass and useless.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on May 24, 2009, 06:35:45 AM
I just ended my last Linux experiment, and have gone back to Windoze. Fucking Linux sucks like nothing has ever sucked before. Windows XP works out of the box, and runs smoothly on my crap ass 256MB SDRAM box. Linux, on the other hand, is slow, needs to be tinkered with to get every day shit to work, and is piss poor when it comes to stuff like Java and Flash. I tried Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Puppy and Mint, and neither of them even came close to working like Windows. Fuck that Linux shit, it's not worth the hassle.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on May 24, 2009, 09:53:20 AM
Ubuntu is like un-upgradeable. I've upgraded in the past and ran into all kinds of problems.
You have to just install clean and transfer information its a pain in the ass and useless.

To be fair...

Yeah, package manager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_management_system) problems are a fact of life, but Ubuntu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu) does a better job than most.  I had that problem upgrading Fedora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_(operating_system)), which indeed is un-upgradable.  I didn't have major problems upgrading Ubuntu, but I did apt-get myself into trouble on a couple of occasions - and I'm not a n00b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie), so that just goes to show you that viruses and other n00b mistakes that happen on Windows do have their Linux analogues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Linux#Viability_for_use_as_a_desktop_system).

And it's easier to rebuild the OS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system) with UNIX - just keep /home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_directory) on a separate partition and have script to backup /etc, /var/www (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard), and whatever else you need.  It's also very simple to generate a script to install or remove the packages you like or dislike, etc.  It takes a whole day to break in a Windows system - service packs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_pack) / updates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Update), drivers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Device_driver), all the apps you gotta download from separate places, Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office), Visual Studio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio) and MSDN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Developer_Network) take particularly long to install, etc.  There's no excuse for Windows not having decent package management system, even if it would have to be a third party product for antitrust reasons.  With Windows you should do the same thing - keep the OS on a separate partition (just Windows, Program Files (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_Files), and user settings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_profile)), and put all the documents, downloads, temp files (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_folder), etc on other partitions.  Then simply use something like Norton Ghost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_(software)) for regular differential backups.


I just ended my last Linux experiment, and have gone back to Windoze.
[...]  Fuck that Linux shit, it's not worth the hassle.

I'd bet that at least 80% of people who try Linux as a desktop OS come to the same conclusion.

It's better when you ease into it.  For the first few years of my experience, UNIX was something I connected to from an ANSI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code) terminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_terminal) (via a dial-up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_212A) BBS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system) gateway) to unzip my Web pages and chmod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmod) my CGI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface) scripts.  Then I switched to ssh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Shell)'ing to a remote box, and learned quite a bit about the command line before I ever installed a Linux / BSD partition myself.  (I actually don't remember which one I succeeded in installing first, I didn't keep it long.)  For a long time my Gentoo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux) partition (also accessible via VMware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware)) became more of a game, and a good way to waste CPU cycles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_cycle)...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: mikehz on May 24, 2009, 10:17:14 AM
Linux reminds me of the guy who proudly shows his friend the TV he brought home from the city dump. When his friend points out that the thing doesn't work, he replies, "You're right--it doesn't work. But, you have to balance that out with the fact that it was free."
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on May 24, 2009, 10:57:15 AM

we must not lose sight of the fact that many people only use a computer for email and general web surfing/research/blogging and thus DO NOT REQUIRE bloatware...

windoze AND osx AND ubuntu/other *nixware...ARE fucking bloatware...

to wit:

I just grabbed a 2004 dell laptop off the storage shelf and slapped a Puppy Linux(100mb) Live-Run CD in it...

Whatdidiget?

I got a full system WITH fucking wifi support, cabled lan support, and dial-up support...

all without even needing to install...or even without having a hard drive in the box...

If you need/want bloatware...fine, but millions don't need it and there are millions of "not-brand-new" and legacy units out there for free or little money that will work for email and light-interwebbing...

no offense either way...

just sayin'

amirite?

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on May 24, 2009, 11:51:18 AM
Yeah, and IIRC the 100MB version of PuppyLinux includes Mozilla SeaMonkey (similar to Firefox), stripped-down OpenOffice.org, etc.  I'm sure Microsoft could build a comparable compilation from Windows 95 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_95#System_requirements) / Office 95 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_95) if it really wanted to.  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on May 24, 2009, 12:46:45 PM
amirite?

I think you are, since you found something that works for you.

It's the "what works for me is right for everyone" crowd who would object.

I'm also quite pleased with what works for me, and I am very glad to have the ability to choose.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on May 24, 2009, 01:02:15 PM

we must not lose sight of the fact that many people only use a computer for email and general web surfing/research/blogging and thus DO NOT REQUIRE bloatware...

windoze AND osx AND ubuntu/other *nixware...ARE fucking bloatware...

to wit:

I just grabbed a 2004 dell laptop off the storage shelf and slapped a Puppy Linux(100mb) Live-Run CD in it...

Whatdidiget?

I got a full system WITH fucking wifi support, cabled lan support, and dial-up support...

all without even needing to install...or even without having a hard drive in the box...

If you need/want bloatware...fine, but millions don't need it and there are millions of "not-brand-new" and legacy units out there for free or little money that will work for email and light-interwebbing...

no offense either way...

just sayin'

amirite?




I'm so addicted to bloatware that I want an OS and browser that allow me to download torrents, watch funny vids at Break.com and use my online bank without my computer acting like it's been kicked in the balls. Neither Puppy nor Mint or any of the other Ubuntu distributions could do that, Windoze does it right out of the box. Linux sucks.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on May 24, 2009, 01:03:25 PM
Yeah, and IIRC the 100MB version of PuppyLinux includes Mozilla SeaMonkey (similar to Firefox), stripped-down OpenOffice.org, etc.  I'm sure Microsoft could build a comparable compilation from Windows 95 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_95#System_requirements) / Office 95 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_95) if it really wanted to.  :lol:


Why not just get an OLPC? :P
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: anarchir on May 24, 2009, 01:33:08 PM
Perhaps off topic, but I just downloaded openoffice last night. I didnt need anything but I really wanted to get my hands on the replacement for powerpoint. I made a nice slide show, and I'd say it works quite well.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: libertylover on May 24, 2009, 05:35:15 PM

we must not lose sight of the fact that many people only use a computer for email and general web surfing/research/blogging and thus DO NOT REQUIRE bloatware...


That is exactly it.  My husband has an older laptop and honest to god the only thing he does is a little web surfing and checks his email.  He isn't into gaming, watching youtube or anything else.  So I have been playing around with Linux on that computer. 

Now me on the other hand I have use for loads of programs and need to do more.  I use XP and will be very mightily pissed when that is obsolete.  It does something Vista can't it works and helps me accomplish my projects.  But I do plan to learn more about Linux and I use Open Office now it works fine for what I do.  But I am using it on a xp system.  I would like nothing better than to find a Linux system which will do the things that xp can do.  Maybe Red Hat which does cost some money.  It is possible the free Linux stuff isn't worth the time. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on May 24, 2009, 06:15:09 PM
I'm so addicted to bloatware that I want an OS and browser that allow me to download torrents, watch funny vids at Break.com and use my online bank without my computer acting like it's been kicked in the balls. Neither Puppy nor Mint or any of the other Ubuntu distributions could do that, Windoze does it right out of the box.

Couldn't agree more.

Quote
Linux sucks.

What amazes me is that Linux did all that "out of the box" for me, too. So, for me, Windows sucks.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: libertylover on May 25, 2009, 09:54:29 AM
I'm so addicted to bloatware that I want an OS and browser that allow me to download torrents, watch funny vids at Break.com and use my online bank without my computer acting like it's been kicked in the balls. Neither Puppy nor Mint or any of the other Ubuntu distributions could do that, Windoze does it right out of the box.

Couldn't agree more.

Quote
Linux sucks.

What amazes me is that Linux did all that "out of the box" for me, too. So, for me, Windows sucks.

Please I would love to use Linux which version are you using that it worked so well right out of the gate.  My friend that loaded Linux on the laptop partitioned the drive and left windows on there.  I didn't want any windows to occupy one bite of that hard drive.   She used Linux Foresight which is used on some out of the box shuttle computers.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on May 25, 2009, 10:49:15 AM
Please I would love to use Linux which version are you using that it worked so well right out of the gate.  My friend that loaded Linux on the laptop partitioned the drive and left windows on there.  I didn't want any windows to occupy one bite of that hard drive.   She used Linux Foresight which is used on some out of the box shuttle computers.

One thing about banks and YouTube, I find that FireFox usually works better than Safari or whatever else to render their scripting. So although I use Konqueror by default, for those sites utterly over-burdened with scripting I use FireFox. In Debian it's called "IceWeasel" because of licensing issues.

While I've also had people around me crowing about Ubuntu, my personal favorite is Debian.

I've been using Debian since 1995, and since 2000 I've used the "Unstable" set. I found the continuous evolution worked better for me than trying to make large changes all at once with "Stable" releases.

However, I've put Lenny, the Debian "Stable" release this year on three laptops including my primary, and have been very happy with it. So is my mother. So much for "unready for grandma's desktop".

Anyway, here are the sources:

http://www.debian.org/CD/
If you like KDE like I do, make sure to use the "minimal net install" and select "install alternative desktop", or get the KDE CD#1, otherwise it will install GNOME.

http://www.debian-multimedia.org/
for Mplayer, transcode and other such. It does require editing one file as root, /etc/apt/sources.list, in order to have that archive automatically available. So all those configuration horror stories about Debian are true to as great a degree as pasting one line of text into one plain text file make them.

http://wicd.sourceforge.net/
I have found WICD to be the best of the Wifi managers.

As mentioned in http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29270.0 I do use VirtualBox for that one Windows-only application.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on May 26, 2009, 08:56:10 AM


It's better when you ease into it.  For the first few years of my experience, UNIX was something I connected to from an ANSI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code) terminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_terminal) (via a dial-up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_212A) BBS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system) gateway) to unzip my Web pages and chmod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmod) my CGI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface) scripts.  Then I switched to ssh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Shell)'ing to a remote box, and learned quite a bit about the command line before I ever installed a Linux / BSD partition myself.  (I actually don't remember which one I succeeded in installing first, I didn't keep it long.)  For a long time my Gentoo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux) partition (also accessible via VMware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware)) became more of a game, and a good way to waste CPU cycles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_cycle)...


Libman, you're hardcore.

Ever thought of setting up a hamgate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio), or, better yet, a pirate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsJyfN0ICU) hamgate?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on May 27, 2009, 04:42:19 PM
I used to be a hardcore computer geek, but I've never dabbled in radio (even though I may have the face for it, I have the voice for text only).

I ran programming groups / little dot-com start-up attempts (which I took way, way too seriously) when I was in high school, dabbled in some game programming, etc.

Not any more.  I haven't even worked full time with computers since like 5 years ago...  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-think001.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: libertylover on May 28, 2009, 08:30:23 AM
I used to be a hardcore computer geek, but I've never dabbled in radio (even though I may have the face for it, I have the voice for text only).

I ran programming groups / little dot-com start-up attempts (which I took way, way too seriously) when I was in high school, dabbled in some game programming, etc.

Not any more.  I haven't even worked full time with computers since like 5 years ago...  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-think001.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I totally feel you on this one.  Burnout is one of the biggest problems in the IT world.  I knew this computer programmer who just up and quit his job one day and went on to become a house painter.  He said he never wanted to deal with IT ever again.  I too felt some burn out on IT and threw off the shackles of a desk for an outside physical labor job. 

Now I just do minor stuff like surf the net.  This is why Linux is difficult for me but I do so loath Microsoft and Apple.  If there really was a reasonable alternative which worked right out of the box I would be all over it.  This is why I keep pulling for Linux to get it together.  Keeping my fingers crossed that some bright developer out there will put together a functional Linux package at a reasonable price.   Maybe they need some sort of easy to follow guide.  Maybe I should run down to the bookstore and purchase a copy of Linux for Dummies. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on May 28, 2009, 11:44:43 AM
Burnout is one of the biggest problems in the IT world.

Agreed. It's intense, hard intellectual work. And no matter how good a job one does, it's never "done". Someone always comes up with something they want changed, or added, or whatever.

My field is networking. "Router Guru", as it were. On-call SUCKS. Years of having to get up in the middle of the night, or spending weekends doing overnight migrations, really takes it out of a body. If I were any good at house painting, I'd prefer that too. At least when you leave a painting job and go home, you know you can get a good night's sleep.

Quote
Now I just do minor stuff like surf the net.  This is why Linux is difficult for me but I do so loath Microsoft and Apple.  If there really was a reasonable alternative which worked right out of the box I would be all over it.  This is why I keep pulling for Linux to get it together.

When I set up a Windows system for someone, it takes me quite a while to get all drivers loaded, the 3rd party applications together, lock down the network (getting better, at least Microsoft has learned to turn some few things OFF by default), make sure their anti-virus isn't going to be the source of their problems, etc. Then I just make sure that FireFox sets itself as the default browser and there is no Internet Explorer icon on the desktop. That solves quite a number of problems all by itself.

Comparing the work of ensuring that Xwindows has the right screen size, that the network interface is correctly being detected, then doing the same basic work of getting the applications together, a Linux install is (for me) far less intensive to get to the same level of usability.

I understand perfectly well that familiarity, technical skill, simple preference, all make one or the other work better for a person, but the impression that it just doesn't work is a constant surprise to me.

There's a YouTube of people trying out a GNOME/Linux system after being told it's the next version of Windows. The reactions are all very positive. "Gee, that's easy!"

Quote
Keeping my fingers crossed that some bright developer out there will put together a functional Linux package at a reasonable price.   Maybe they need some sort of easy to follow guide.  Maybe I should run down to the bookstore and purchase a copy of Linux for Dummies. 

If you're going to get a Dummies book, see if there is one for the distribution you want to try. RedHat, for instance, has their own installer that has some WONDERFUL options I've never needed to use.

Descriptions, sources and languages: Distrowatch.com: $0
Install disk: $0.10 to burn, $1.75 finished from LinuxCD.org
Linux.org HowTo guides: $0
LXer.com, LinuxQuestions.org, DebianPlanet or hundreds of other forums: $0

Heck, send me a personal message with a mailing address, I'll mail you a liveCD to see if your hardware is all correctly detected. Do you like GNOME or KDE or XFCE as a desktop?

So what's the price you call "reasonable"?  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on May 28, 2009, 11:54:07 AM
I have an old Red Hat distro, (maybe 6.2) and the paper case was signed by Linus Torvalds at Linux World 2000. Wanna buy it? I've been wondering how much a linux fanboy would pay for it.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on May 28, 2009, 03:09:43 PM
I have an old Red Hat distro, (maybe 6.2) and the paper case was signed by Linus Torvalds at Linux World 2000. Wanna buy it? I've been wondering how much a linux fanboy would pay for it.

Many people would pay good money for relics of the prophet of the penguin god.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: LordMarius on May 28, 2009, 03:14:31 PM
I have an old Red Hat distro, (maybe 6.2) and the paper case was signed by Linus Torvalds at Linux World 2000. Wanna buy it? I've been wondering how much a linux fanboy would pay for it.

eBay it, and buy Vista for all the $
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Jetfire on May 28, 2009, 05:00:01 PM
If you know what your doing..... then vista is free. Not that I would know anything about that....
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on May 28, 2009, 05:18:56 PM
If you know what your doing..... then vista is free. Not that I would know anything about that....
I haven't used any warez in years. I have had legal access to the entire MS software library for the last 9 years.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Jetfire on May 28, 2009, 05:38:23 PM
warez? never used that before

http://tinyurl.com/mxchcl
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on May 28, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
Run Windows 7 RC 1. It's free.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: libertylover on May 28, 2009, 07:17:37 PM
I have an old Red Hat distro, (maybe 6.2) and the paper case was signed by Linus Torvalds at Linux World 2000. Wanna buy it? I've been wondering how much a linux fanboy would pay for it.

Many people would pay good money for relics of the prophet of the penguin god.

Don't diss the penguin god lest your ballsack be frozen to your inner thigh. :x

Sadly at this point my collection of stuffed penguin toys seems more useful. :(  Hey but I will continue to work on learning Linux because I am so sick of Windows pushing out yet another bloat ware version making all my very expensive programs useless.  It isn't the cost of Vista but the cost of all the programs which I purchased and use that now have to be repurchased to function that makes me angry.  And I do think I am making an effort to transition because I already use firefox and open office.  I am getting ready to start using nue and gimp.  It might take some time but I have told myself even if I have to buy an Apple I will be done with Microsoft.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Jetfire on May 28, 2009, 07:23:17 PM
Run Windows 7 RC 1. It's free.

for what like a year?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on May 28, 2009, 07:31:47 PM
I re-install my operating system every few months, mainly because I get bored with it, regardless of which one I'm using. By the time the Windows 7 RC expires, the full version will be out and I can install that one as a trial too. :P
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Jetfire on May 28, 2009, 07:45:20 PM
yea too much trouble to go through. when its fully available and cracked then i'm good to go.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BonerJoe on May 28, 2009, 09:22:21 PM
I'm installing Windows 7 on a fresh 320 gig drive on my laptop. We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on May 29, 2009, 02:40:18 PM
I re-install my operating system every few months, mainly because I get bored with it, regardless of which one I'm using.

Heck, I don't even REBOOT every couple of months.  :P

I had one server loop the old Linux uptime counter...twice.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on May 29, 2009, 02:52:48 PM
I re-install my operating system every few months, mainly because I get bored with it, regardless of which one I'm using.

Heck, I don't even REBOOT every couple of months.  :P

I had one server loop the old Linux uptime counter...twice.
Do you turn the lights off when you leave a room?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on May 29, 2009, 04:17:57 PM
I re-install my operating system every few months, mainly because I get bored with it, regardless of which one I'm using.

Heck, I don't even REBOOT every couple of months.  :P

I had one server loop the old Linux uptime counter...twice.
Do you turn the lights off when you leave a room?

who needs lights, the screen saver is bright enough to illuminate the whole room...

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on May 30, 2009, 05:32:58 PM
From Slashdot -- EU Wants Multiple Browser Bundling On New PCs (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/05/30/2011248/EU-Wants-Multiple-Browser-Bundling-On-New-PCs) --

Quote
The EU is considering forcing Windows users to choose a browser to download and install (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/05/eu-may-force-windows-users-to-choose-a-browser.ars) before they can first browse the Internet, according to The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124362706194767281.html)  (subscription required).

While the latest Windows 7 builds let you uninstall IE8 (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/03/04/2321224/Windows-7-Lets-You-Uninstall-IE8), "third-party browser makers like Opera, Mozilla and Google are pushing for tough sanctions against Microsoft.  The EU would rather have a 'ballot screen' for users to choose which browsers to download and install as well as which one to set as default.  The bundling requirement might end up becoming a responsibility for manufacturers."

Fuckin' commies!  :x
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on May 31, 2009, 02:08:34 PM
Fuckin' commies!  :x

Regardless of the disagreement over OS, that is one thing we can completely agree upon.

Any legislation specifying what a private company may or may not do with their own product is reprehensible.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on May 31, 2009, 02:13:48 PM
From Slashdot -- EU Wants Multiple Browser Bundling On New PCs (http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/05/30/2011248/EU-Wants-Multiple-Browser-Bundling-On-New-PCs) --

Quote
The EU is considering forcing Windows users to choose a browser to download and install (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/05/eu-may-force-windows-users-to-choose-a-browser.ars) before they can first browse the Internet, according to The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124362706194767281.html)  (subscription required).

While the latest Windows 7 builds let you uninstall IE8 (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/03/04/2321224/Windows-7-Lets-You-Uninstall-IE8), "third-party browser makers like Opera, Mozilla and Google are pushing for tough sanctions against Microsoft.  The EU would rather have a 'ballot screen' for users to choose which browsers to download and install as well as which one to set as default.  The bundling requirement might end up becoming a responsibility for manufacturers."

Fuckin' commies!  :x


and the insane insanity continues unabated...

ugh...

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on June 02, 2009, 12:03:27 AM
Quote
Heck, I don't even REBOOT every couple of months.  Razz

I had one server loop the old Linux uptime counter...twice.

I have a laptop. If we were talking servers, I wouldn't suggest Windows or Linux. I install my OS because I find it fun. I happen to avoid the activation by doing that, but I do it when I'm running my legit copies of Vista or Linux, so it has very little to do with the fact that I CAN avoid the license thing. I'd just crack it if that was my aim.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 08, 2009, 07:28:02 AM
From Slashdot -- Ballmer Threatens To Pull Out of the US (http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/06/1153217/Ballmer-Threatens-To-Pull-Out-of-the-US) --

Quote
Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft) CEO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_executive_officer) Steve Ballmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ballmer) is threatening to move Microsoft employees offshore (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAKluP7yIwJY) if Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress) enacts President Obama's plans to curb tax avoidance (http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/04/2031252&tid=103) by US corporations.

"It makes US jobs more expensive," complained billionaire Ballmer.  "We're better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the US as opposed to keeping them inside the US."

According to 2006 reports, Microsoft transferred $16 billion in assets to secretive Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin) subsidiaries to shave billions off its US tax bill.

"Corporate tax is part of the overall advantage of doing business in Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland#Economy)," acknowledged Ballmer (http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single5503) in 2005. "It would be disingenuous to say otherwise."
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on June 08, 2009, 08:43:58 AM
From Slashdot -- Ballmer Threatens To Pull Out of the US (http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/06/1153217/Ballmer-Threatens-To-Pull-Out-of-the-US) --

Quote
Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft) CEO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_executive_officer) Steve Ballmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ballmer) is threatening to move Microsoft employees offshore (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAKluP7yIwJY) if Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress) enacts President Obama's plans to curb tax avoidance (http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/04/2031252&tid=103) by US corporations.

"It makes US jobs more expensive," complained billionaire Ballmer.  "We're better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the US as opposed to keeping them inside the US."

According to 2006 reports, Microsoft transferred $16 billion in assets to secretive Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin) subsidiaries to shave billions off its US tax bill.

"Corporate tax is part of the overall advantage of doing business in Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland#Economy)," acknowledged Ballmer (http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/news.nv?storyid=single5503) in 2005. "It would be disingenuous to say otherwise."


I fully support Ballmer closing up shop here and moving away from the people's failed republic of Amerika...

Personal and professional secession starts with the mindset to refuse to be a victim, and then to implement that throughout your life and your businesses...

Of course, if he would attempt to do that then the Obamanator would nationalize Microsoft in the interest of national security...

Same with Google when they try to pack up and leave for better pastures...

I'm sure the Chinese(or the Russians...or the Swiss) would love to have Microsoft and Google!

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 08, 2009, 01:50:34 PM
He's probably bluffing, the U.S. government is Microsoft's #1 supporter.

Intellectual property laws don't just (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_(metaphysics)) come about naturally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights), some corrupt government thugs have to be bribed first...

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-computer006.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)


Um, did I just flip-flop back to Linux?

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-whacky061.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on June 08, 2009, 01:56:45 PM
He's probably bluffing, the U.S. government is Microsoft's #1 supporter.

Intellectual property laws don't just (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_(metaphysics)) come about naturally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights), some corrupt government thugs have to be bribed first...

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-computer006.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)


Um, did I just flip-flop back to Linux?

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-whacky061.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)


your animations crack me up

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on June 09, 2009, 09:41:25 AM
On the topic of the thread this article, and especially the posted responses, are wonderfully insightful:

http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/linux-sucks-as.html

Does that make Mr. Libman a paid shill of Microsoft? No, I would not make such an assertion. He's just repeating the talking points, directly or by osmosis, or even because that has actually been his experience by some astounding coincidence, from the present Microsoft astroturf play-book.

Heck, I don't even disagree with him on most things, as we can see here:

He's probably bluffing, the U.S. government is Microsoft's #1 supporter.

And one of their biggest customers. Who knows what backdoors the Fed.Gov has inserted into Windows?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=us+government+backdoor+windows

Which reminds me of one of the strangest "services" the US Government ever provided: Security Enhanced Linux:

http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/

...for Solaris and BSD, too.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 14, 2009, 02:17:56 PM
This thread is about the quality of Microsoft products, particularly from a business-oriented developer point of view.  Obviously Microsoft is in bed with the government, as all corporations are obligated to be as the result of government violence.  They're not the problem, the government is!

Now, the next "talking point", from Slashdot -- First Look At Microsoft Silverlight 3 (http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/06/13/0149249/First-Look-At-Microsoft-Silverlight-3) --

Quote
InfoWorld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoWorld)'s Martin Heller (http://www.mheller.com/) finds Silverlight 3 gaining ground (http://infoworld.com/d/developer-world/first-look-microsoft-silverlight-3-challenges-adobe-air-216) on Adobe Flash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash), Flex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flex), and AIR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Integrated_Runtime) in all the areas where Silverlight 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight#Silverlight_2) had lagged.

No longer do developers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ballmer#Viral_videos) need to build desktop WPF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation) apps based loosely on corresponding Silverlight RIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Internet_application)s, as Silverlight 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Silverlight#Silverlight_3) adds the ability to install Silverlight apps on the desktop, update them in place, detect Net connectivity state changes, and store data locally and securely. Moreover, solid Expression Blend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Blend) 3 and Visual Studio 2010 betas (http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/06/05/1956211/First-Look-At-Visual-Studio-2010-Beta-1?art_pos=1) [WP] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Visual_Studio_2010) provide developers with much improved tools to create Silverlight RIAs.

"'I do not expect many Adobe shops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Certified_Expert) to give up their Flash, Flex, and AIR for Silverlight 3.  I do expect many Microsoft shops to do more RIAs with Silverlight now that it's more capable and to create lightweight browser / desktop Silverlight 3 applications where they might have fashioned heavier-weight Windows Forms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Forms) or WPF client applications', Heller says."
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on June 14, 2009, 02:22:45 PM
Alex, no one has yet shown any valid use of those fucking 'widgets' on Linux, Mac, or Windows desktops. They're the new Bonzi Buddy of this (and probably the next) decade! Or in simpler terms: they're SHIT! GIMME MAH NATIVE ENVIRONMENT BACK!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 14, 2009, 05:07:41 PM
Oh heck, no one has yet shown any valid use for resizable windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_(computing)) - I always keep one window maximized and hardly ever see my desktop, which is blank.  The operating system could have been called Tabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabbed_document_interface) for all I care!

But it seems to entertain some people, so, well, who cares.  n00btards are people too - especially if they have money to pay for for the next release of Windows.  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-devil07.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org)

So anyways, I don't see what this has to do with Silverlight, which brings about many improvements over Java(FX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaFX)) or Flash...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on June 14, 2009, 05:17:47 PM
The operating system could have been called Tabs for all I care!

Cute. One of the lightweight "desktops" I keep on hand is twm, the "Tab Window Manager" http://xwinman.org/vtwm.php

I notice that OLWM is on their list too, I also keep that on hand just in case I want to party like it's 1992!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 27, 2009, 04:20:25 PM
From Slashdot -- Microsoft To Offer Windows 7 On USB Thumb Drives? (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/27/1919221/Microsoft-To-Offer-Windows-7-On-USB-Thumb-Drives?art_pos=1) --

Quote
Microsoft is reportedly considering offering Windows 7 on USB thumb drives (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/258811/microsoft-to-offer-windows-7-on-usb-thumb-drives.html) to allow netbook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook) owners to upgrade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade) their machines.  Windows has, until now, only been distributed on DVDs or via download (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/download.aspx).  However, netbooks don't have optical drives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_disc_drive) and the Windows 7 ISO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_image) weighs in at 2.3GB, which would take several hours (http://www.google.com/search?q=2.3GB+%2F+100+KB+per+second) to download on an average broadband connection and potentially do serious damage to a customer's broadband data cap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_cap).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on June 27, 2009, 04:39:05 PM
Windows 7 still sucks on the UI. I prefer Gnome or XFCE; clean, simple and easy to configure.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 28, 2009, 04:31:19 PM
The Windows Start menu still sucks, I agree, but you can make it suck a lot less with a program that re-organizes your Programs into a Gnome/KDE-like hierarchy by category (ex Internet, MultiMedia, Developer, Utilities, etc), and there are many other third party tweaks as well.  That's the only Windows UI downside I can think of, it wins in every other category.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on June 28, 2009, 04:50:45 PM
The Windows Start menu still sucks, I agree, but...

Nothing is perfect for everyone. I find the "Kicker" of KDE4 to be utterly ugly and insane. However, it's easy enough to toggle back to a regular menu style with a right-click.

Quote
That's the only Windows UI downside I can think of, it wins in every other category.

Bleh! Utter disagreement. And, in a free market, it's not a place for battle but an opportunity to have both our desires met.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Russell Griswold on June 28, 2009, 07:43:51 PM
I've been very happy with Windows 7's stability and interface.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on June 29, 2009, 04:18:33 PM
The Windows Start menu still sucks, I agree, but you can make it suck a lot less with a program that re-organizes your Programs into a Gnome/KDE-like hierarchy by category (ex Internet, MultiMedia, Developer, Utilities, etc), and there are many other third party tweaks as well.  That's the only Windows UI downside I can think of, it wins in every other category.


That's the one thing that I'm glad the M$ folks took on and actually improved through their search integration and favorites main menu on the start menu now. I think it's suppose to cover even documents as well.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 19, 2009, 11:25:09 PM
From Slashydotty --  New Firefox Vulnerability Revealed (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/19/169206/New-Firefox-Vulnerability-Revealed) --

Quote
Not long after Firefox 3.5.1 was released (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/17/0510258&tid=366) to address a security issue, a new exploit has been found (http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200929/4087/New-vulnerability-discovered-for-Firefox-3-5-1) and a proof of concept (http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/35707.html) has been posted.

"The vulnerability is a remote stack-based buffer-overflow, triggered by sending an overly long string of Unicode data to the document.write method. If exploited, the resulting overflow could lead to code execution, or if the exploit attempts fail, a denial-of-service scenario."

It's recommended that Firefox users disable Javascript until the issue is patched, though addons like NoScript should do the trick as well (unless a site on your whitelist becomes compromised (http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=6829)).

As Microsoft alternatives gain market share (from a pathetic 1% to a respectable 15%), it becomes ever-more apparent that Microsoft's security wasn't so bad after all when you consider that's what everyone has been targeting - for reasons pragmatic (more users to exploit) as well as ideological.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Terror Australis on July 20, 2009, 03:25:56 AM
Say what you will about Ubuntu, but I've convinced 2 people already to move from Windows to Linux Mint.  Yes, the base is Ubuntu, but it is so polished and just works, even wireless.  It saved both these people from having to buy new computers, and it's safer for them.  They still have antivirus software and a firewall of course, but they say their systems are running much faster.

For the average computer user who just surfs the net and plays online flash-based games, answers email, IM's, Linux will work fine for these people, especially Linux Mint.  For us "geeks" who think Linux Mint is too user-friendly and hand-holding, then there are alternatives.  I agree Ubuntu is getting to be utter crap lately, but I'm impressed with Linux Mint and some of the other forks of ubuntu that haven't been eaten by Canonical.


My wife had an eeepc that windows died on and I couldnt reload windows on.....I used linux mint to bring it back from the dead.....you can even get a version of it called...wait for it....Minteee  lol
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 20, 2009, 06:11:16 AM
Once again, a reminder: this is a general Microsoft business desktop thread.

I have another active thread here about Linux distros (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29820).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 20, 2009, 08:37:57 AM
Once again, a reminder: this is a general Microsoft business desktop thread.

Awwwww. You should have put it in Hyjack Free.

Funny how I don't see "general" or "business" anywhere in the subject.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 20, 2009, 03:31:31 PM
Meh...

Anywhoo, from Slashdot -- Microsoft Releases Linux Device Drivers As GPL (http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/20/1643251/Microsoft-Releases-Linux-Device-Drivers-As-GPL) --

Quote
Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft) used to call the GPL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License) "anti-American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism)".  Now, as Microsoft releases Hyper-V Linux Integration Components (LinuxIC) under the GPL (version 2) (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10290686-16.html), apparently Microsoft calls the GPL "ally".

Of course, there was little chance the device drivers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Device_driver) would be accepted into the Linux kernel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel) base unless open source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_community), but the news suggests a shift for Microsoft.  It also reflects Microsoft's continued interest in undermining its virtualization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_virtualization) competition through low prices, and may suggests concern that it must open up if it wants to fend off insurgent virtualization strategies from Red Hat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat) (KVM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel-based_Virtual_Machine)), Novell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novell#Your_Linux_is_Ready) (XEN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen)), and others in the open-source camp.

Microsoft said the move demonstrates its interest in using open source in three key areas (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/Jul09/07-20LinuxQA.mspx): 1) Make its software development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_development) processes more efficient, 2) product evangelism, and 3) using open source to reduce marketing and sales costs or to try out new features that highlight parts of the platform customers haven't seen before.

Sellouts!  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 20, 2009, 03:46:23 PM
poasting love for Win98SE here

it might not be supported anymore, but it will always be the OS of my heart :3
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 20, 2009, 03:48:18 PM
poasting love for Win98SE here

it might not be supported anymore, but it will always be the OS of my heart :3
:|
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BonerJoe on July 20, 2009, 04:29:39 PM
poasting love for Win98SE here

it might not be supported anymore, but it will always be the OS of my heart :3

It ran sexy on my Pentium Pro 200.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 21, 2009, 10:23:53 AM
poasting love for Win98SE here

it might not be supported anymore, but it will always be the OS of my heart :3

For me it was Win95.

However, one never forgets their first, so it's no surprise that I get a tang of familiarity when using a tty console or bring up a command line BASIC interpreter.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 21, 2009, 10:25:44 AM
poasting love for Win98SE here

it might not be supported anymore, but it will always be the OS of my heart :3

For me it was Win95.

However, one never forgets their first, so it's no surprise that I get a tang of familiarity when using a tty console or bring up a command line BASIC interpreter.
My first was MS-DOSSHELL.  I still miss it <3.  Not really though, I'm just kidding.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 21, 2009, 11:48:01 AM
My first was either whatever came with Apple IIes or Win 3.11 on school computers.

It sucked ass.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 21, 2009, 01:19:22 PM
My first PC was an old, used (my family was dirt-ass poor) Packard Bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Bell) 386SX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80386#The_i386SX_variant) 20 MHz, with 2 MB RAM (which I upgraded to 4 MB), ~80 MB hard drive (later upgraded too), and a VGA monitor, running MS-DOS v5.00.  And my parents refused to pay for Internet access, or even Prodigy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigy_%28online_service%29) for like the first couple of years...

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs079.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on July 21, 2009, 01:27:34 PM
TRS-80, bitches.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 21, 2009, 01:54:42 PM
My first PC was an old, used (my family was dirt-ass poor) Packard Bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Bell) 386SX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80386#The_i386SX_variant) 20 MHz, with 2 MB RAM (which I upgraded to 4 MB), ~80 MB hard drive (later upgraded too), and a VGA monitor, running MS-DOS v5.00.  And my parents refused to pay for Internet access, or even Prodigy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigy_%28online_service%29) for like the first couple of years...

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs079.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

now we have advanced to the point where you can have free internets off your neighbor

you pretty much NEED linux to crack the secured internets when you find them, though
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 21, 2009, 02:13:22 PM
My first PC was an old, used (my family was dirt-ass poor) Packard Bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Bell) 386SX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80386#The_i386SX_variant) 20 MHz, with 2 MB RAM (which I upgraded to 4 MB), ~80 MB hard drive (later upgraded too), and a VGA monitor, running MS-DOS v5.00.  And my parents refused to pay for Internet access, or even Prodigy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigy_%28online_service%29) for like the first couple of years...

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs079.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

now we have advanced to the point where you can have free internets off your neighbor

you pretty much NEED linux to crack the secured internets when you find them, though
Not quite though.  wardrive.net I believe
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 21, 2009, 02:45:53 PM
now we have advanced to the point where you can have free internets off your neighbor

Depends on where you are.  This applies to most urban areas already, and will probably apply to most of suburbia in a few years too, but I prefer to live in the boondocks, with no neighbors in close proximity.  What's more significant in my opinion is that cellular / 4G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4G)-like service will continue to get faster, cheaper, and available in more areas, with limited free (ad-injecting) services appearing as well.


you pretty much NEED linux to crack the secured internets when you find them, though

No, if you can get your wireless card working you can do it on any OS.  Except of course some wireless cards aren't fully supported by Linux, or require a lot of kernel / module tinkering... 

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-computer003.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 21, 2009, 04:18:55 PM
I've never seen an easy to use program to crack WEP in Windows, every tutorial I've read says that you have to d/l a certain distro of Linux and use it to do that.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 21, 2009, 05:08:30 PM
TRS-80, bitches.

Mod-1, 16K.

I would run a nickel across the card-bus to send the machine into caniptions, to watch the screen go crazy. I have no idea how it survived me owning it.

Lots of friends thought it was named CLOAD.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 21, 2009, 05:47:27 PM
I've never seen an easy to use program to crack WEP in Windows, every tutorial I've read says that you have to d/l a certain distro of Linux and use it to do that.

Between Inssider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inssider) [DL] (http://www.metageek.net/products/inssider), WebLab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weplab) [DL] (http://weplab.sourceforge.net/index.html#Windows) + OmniPeek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OmniPeek) [BT] (http://btjunkie.org/search?q=wildpackets) + Cygwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygwin) [DL] (http://www.cygwin.com/) + winpcap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pcap#WinPcap) [DL] (http://www.winpcap.org/install/default.htm), Aircrack-NG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircrack-ng) [DL] (http://www.aircrack-ng.org/doku.php?id=extendedwarning), Cain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_(software)) [DL] (http://www.oxid.it/cain.html), Wireshark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireshark) [DL] (http://www.wireshark.org/), Kismet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kismet_%28software%29) [DL] (http://www.cacetech.com/downloads.html), etc - it ought to be doable.

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 21, 2009, 06:13:22 PM
I've never seen an easy to use program to crack WEP in Windows, every tutorial I've read says that you have to d/l a certain distro of Linux and use it to do that.

Between Inssider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inssider) [DL] (http://www.metageek.net/products/inssider), WebLab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weplab) [DL] (http://weplab.sourceforge.net/index.html#Windows) + OmniPeek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OmniPeek) [BT] (http://btjunkie.org/search?q=wildpackets) + Cygwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygwin) [DL] (http://www.cygwin.com/) + winpcap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pcap#WinPcap) [DL] (http://www.winpcap.org/install/default.htm), Aircrack-NG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircrack-ng) [DL] (http://www.aircrack-ng.org/doku.php?id=extendedwarning), Cain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_(software)) [DL] (http://www.oxid.it/cain.html), Wireshark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireshark) [DL] (http://www.wireshark.org/), Kismet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kismet_%28software%29) [DL] (http://www.cacetech.com/downloads.html), etc - it ought to be doable.



Holy crap, you know your stuff Libman.

Have my babies. Or let's abduct a bunch of White American children and use them as slave labor to power a Beowulf cluster that can crack the Pentagon and shut it down for good.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BonerJoe on July 21, 2009, 06:14:40 PM
Have my babies. Or let's abduct a bunch of White American children and use them as slave labor to power a Beowulf cluster that can crack the Pentagon and shut it down for good.

You just gave Uwe Boll an idea for a movie.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 21, 2009, 06:16:40 PM
Have my babies. Or let's abduct a bunch of White American children and use them as slave labor to power a Beowulf cluster that can crack the Pentagon and shut it down for good.

You just gave Uwe Boll an idea for a movie.

It had better be as good as Bloodrayne II.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: rabidfurby on July 21, 2009, 06:59:33 PM
I've never seen an easy to use program to crack WEP in Windows, every tutorial I've read says that you have to d/l a certain distro of Linux and use it to do that.

The reason is that most Windows drivers don't support packet injection. Most Linux ones don't either out of the box (because it's only useful if you want to do evil shit), but the Linux drivers that are open-source can be patched much more easily.

Cracking WEP doesn't strictly require injection, but all the recent advances that reduce it to ~1 minute do. They rely on being able to broadcast malformed packets and observing the response, and using information leaked through that to narrow the keyspace that needs to be brute-forced.

Security Now episodes 11, 89, and 170 cover the technical aspects in more detail than you probably want, but they're interesting nonetheless: http://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 21, 2009, 07:47:30 PM
Holy crap, you know your stuff Libman.  [...]

Actually, I don't - WEP's too old for me.

I only crack preteens.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 26, 2009, 12:29:23 PM
From Slashdot -- Linus Calls Microsoft Hatred "a Disease" (http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/07/25/1757253/Linus-Calls-Microsoft-Hatred-a-Disease) --

Quote
In the aftermath of Microsoft's recent decision to contribute 20,000 lines of device driver code to the Linux community (http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/20/1643251), Christopher Smart of Linux Magazine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Magazine) talked to Linus Torvalds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds) and asked if the code was something he would be happy to include, even though it's from Microsoft.

"Oh, I'm a big believer in 'technology over politics'.  I don't care who it comes from, as long as there are solid reasons for the code, and as long as we don't have to worry about licensing etc. issues", says Torvalds.  "I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease (http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7439/1.html).  I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out." 

Smart asked Torvalds if Microsoft was contributing the code to benefit the Linux community or Microsoft.  "I agree that it's driven by selfish reasons, but that's how all open source code gets written!  We all 'scratch our own itches'.  It's why I started Linux, it's why I started git (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software)), and it's why I am still involved.  It's the reason for everybody to end up in open source, to some degree", says Torvalds.  "So complaining about the fact that Microsoft picked a selfish area to work on is just silly.  Of course they picked an area that helps them.  That's the point of open source - the ability to make the code better for your particular needs, whoever the 'your' in question happens to be."

It always seemed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_OS) like Torvalds is one of the more sane people in the Open Source movement, while RMS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman) is a self-righteous commie jerk.  Then again, Torvalds made the huge mistake of picking GPL over BSD, thus prolonging Microsoft's OS domination for at least another decade...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 26, 2009, 01:53:14 PM
It always seemed like Torvalds is one of the more sane people in the Open Source movement, while RMS is a self-righteous commie jerk.

Nothing to disagree with there.

Quote
Then again, Torvalds made the huge mistake of picking GPL over BSD, thus prolonging Microsoft's OS domination for at least another decade...

In complete opposition to this statement, by choosing the GPL Torvalds nullified the tactic Microsoft uses of cherry-picking code out of the BSD and MIT licensed systems for their own benefit. The more time passes, the more in favor of the GPL I become. It is one more very useful tool in preventing Microsoft's tactic of "embrace, extend, extinguish".

So by ensuring that Microsoft cannot embed Linux code legally, Microsoft has been forced to spend vastly more time and treasure trying, and failing, to keep up with F/OSS innovation and progress.

It's been great fun watching as Microsoft announces "new" features for Windows, only to be years late after F/OSS has already implemented those features.

A major point in favor of the GPL is that Microsoft executives have publicly stated that they LOVE the BSD license.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/04/22/gates_gpl_will_eat_your/
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 26, 2009, 03:19:03 PM
Ya gotta love the copyleft fanatics trying to pretend that their desktop / productivity software isn't 5-10 years behind Microsoft's, or that they can compete with BSD on the server...  :lol:

Microsoft isn't the only one who'd be "cherry-picking code out of the BSD and MIT licensed systems" - their competitors can too, including tiny start-ups.  In fact, being the biggest software-oriented company in the world, Microsoft needs BSD code the least.  BSD is the great equalizer.

Google and especially Apple have done great with the few good BSD resources that are out there, but if the Linux kernel was BSD the OS market would be super-saturated by now.  More competition leads to better quality software and lower prices.

GPL / copyleft has been the great cancer on the software industry, delivering crummy quality that's useless to 80-99% of desktop users, while making it impossible for serious competitors to rise up and challenge Microsoft.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 26, 2009, 07:55:57 PM
Fascinating. First you say...

Microsoft isn't the only one who'd be "cherry-picking code out of the BSD and MIT licensed systems" - their competitors can too, including tiny start-ups.  In fact, being the biggest software-oriented company in the world, Microsoft needs BSD code the least.  BSD is the great equalizer.

Then you reverse yourself and say...

Quote
GPL / copyleft has been the great cancer on the software industry, delivering crummy quality that's useless to 80-99% of desktop users, while making it impossible for serious competitors to rise up and challenge Microsoft.

So which is it? Which does your Microsoft Astroturf Play-Book tell you to use when your contradictions are brought to light?

If it's crummy, then there's no reason to use it and the license is irrelevant. If it's crummy, then ignoring the code under GPL and concentrating on BSD would allow those start-ups to challenge Microsoft, yet you then state that they cannot.

As far as your assertion that I'm just pretending F/OSS is in any way comparable in quality to MS code, then again you're just asserting that it's crud and useless, and again the license is irrelevant because there's nothing to use anyway.

Which is it, Libman? Why do you spend so much time bemoaning something that you say is, with one side of your face a crummy cancer, and the other side of your face "mislicensed" so that it cannot be picked up and used by commercial companies without attribution and thus a danger to Microsoft?

Really, I do wish you'd pick one. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my "crummy quality" system, the same one that FreeTalkLive.com runs on, the same one that runs circles around Vista and Win7 in desktop effects on hardware that Win7 and Vista won't even enable desktop effects upon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_FaRSJ13yU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HEvLErWh-I

Or the videos from 3 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawkc3jH3ws
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 26, 2009, 10:33:04 PM
Contradictions?  Humbug!

You need to come back to this thread first thing tomorrow morning.  If what you just wrote sounds retarded then, then that probably means you need to cut down on your drinking.  If it doesn't, then you're just plain stupid, at least when it comes to understanding the fundamentals of how the software industry operates.  Copyleft is all about socialist politics, and it has powerful backers!  The only thing it adds to the broader open source movement is the greater imposition of government force!

Perhaps you've somehow missed the fact that Apple and tens of millions of their paying customers are benefiting from the BSD-based Mac OS X, for example, or that a number of companies have been sued for trying to do anything similar with GPL'ed code?  Or, perhaps, you fail to understand that not all talented programmers in the world are willing to do all of their work for free?  When a copyleft license is attached to a piece of code, that code becomes unusable for anyone who actually hopes to make a living with his programming work.

And your claims that Linux is better on the desktop are laughable!  Only around 1% of desktop users choose Linux, and that's also in spite of it being free, and backed by tons of anti-capitalist propaganda, as well as the billions of dollars poured into it by government agencies from all over the world, not to mention James Taggards like IBM and Oracle, all with the aim of hurting Microsoft.

On the server, components with BSD-like licenses are demonstrably better than their copyleft equivalents.  Apache isn't copyleft, and neither is PHP or Python, for example.  PostgreSQL kicks MySQL's butt.  FreeBSD beats Linux in server speed and scalability, while OpenBSD's security and NetBSD's platform support are unmatched.  Copyleft projects may have greater visibility and numbers, but quality programmers tend to avoid them like a plague!

Oh, and to allege that I use a "Microsoft Astroturf Play-Book" is pretty shallow-minded given my affinity for software "piracy", which I've mentioned on this very thread.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on July 27, 2009, 11:53:54 AM
The operating system could have been called Tabs for all I care!

Cute. One of the lightweight "desktops" I keep on hand is twm, the "Tab Window Manager" http://xwinman.org/vtwm.php

I notice that OLWM is on their list too, I also keep that on hand just in case I want to party like it's 1992!

Im a ratpoison guy myself

http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/ (http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/)
http://penguinpetes.com/XWM_Guide/index.php?mode=Ratpoison (http://penguinpetes.com/XWM_Guide/index.php?mode=Ratpoison)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on July 27, 2009, 12:45:23 PM
Alex, stop being a FUDmonster!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 27, 2009, 02:02:42 PM
Oh, and to allege that I use a "Microsoft Astroturf Play-Book" is pretty shallow-minded given my affinity for software "piracy", which I've mentioned on this very thread.

Microsoft _loves_ piracy.

Piracy ensures that Microsoft gets to keep Windows in front of people who otherwise could not afford it. Microsoft then uses their enforcement arm, the BSA, to reap profits from prosecuting companies that, wittingly or not, can be charged with copying.

That's why Windows is so easy to crack: It's deliberate. Always has been. Microsoft cries crocodile tears about it all the way to the bank.

As to the rest, I'm curious how "socialist", "cancer", etc, all wordings right out of the Astroturfer's handbook, seem to permeate your writings on the subject of people voluntarily cooperating to write software. Oh, but of course not for the BSD license stuff, after all Microsoft loves the BSD license. Yet Microsoft's use of the government monopoly grant of copyright and patent somehow isn't "socialist"?

Oh well, just another contradiction.

Alex, stop being a FUDmonster!

Wouldn't that be nice.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 27, 2009, 02:19:43 PM
I must admit that with "Microsoft loves piracy" you've actually made a rational point and defended it sufficiently.  Good job.

What's socialist about copyleft is using government force in enforcing it, that is keeping any software companies from using it for their benefit.

Microsoft can make a buck without government force - through business contracts as well as ad revenue.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on July 27, 2009, 06:34:31 PM
I must admit that with "Microsoft loves piracy" you've actually made a rational point and defended it sufficiently.  Good job.

What's socialist about copyleft is using government force in enforcing it, that is keeping any software companies from using it for their benefit.

Microsoft can make a buck without government force - through business contracts as well as ad revenue.


Sorry, but there is nothing in GPL that prevents any company from using it to make a profit
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 28, 2009, 05:06:19 AM
Have you ever written and sold any software before?

It would have been kinda hard to get people to register my ShareWare if I had to release the source for the full version for free...  Plus they'd see all my spelling and grammatical mistakes in the source code (my English wasn't very good back then)...  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on July 28, 2009, 05:09:01 AM
Have you ever written and sold any software before?

I have, written, sold and supported my own software. Thanks for playing, next
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 28, 2009, 06:00:43 AM
I have, written, sold and supported my own software.  Thanks for playing, next

Proof?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on July 28, 2009, 06:15:22 AM
I have, written, sold and supported my own software.  Thanks for playing, next

Proof?

Rapid Reporting Open Document Center
hardware and software

Not that I have anything to prove.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 28, 2009, 11:03:24 AM
It would have been kinda hard to get people to register my ShareWare if I had to release the source for the full version for free...

Then you don't understand the GPL.

The GPL says, in short form, that if you redistribute code that YOU received under the GPL, you have to provide that code under the same terms that YOU received it.

If you make changes to other people's code, and redistribute it, then you have to provide the resulting code under the same terms that YOU received it.

That's why Google has made several fortunes using GPL'd code, without providing any (ok, very few) of the changes they have made to anyone else: They don't redistribute it. And yes, they have been taken to task for this tendency:

Greg Kroah Hartman on the Linux Kernel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2SED6sewRw

RedHat, IBM, Novell and others make money by selling support for the otherwise free software, including their own works under the GPL. IBM has always charged nominal fees for their software, provided the source code and then charged for support, so it was no big change for them.

So Alex, since GPL code is cancerous crap anyway, you haven't given any reason why you'd want to use it as the basis for anything you would want to redistribute. So you have no reason to use the GPL if you dislike it so much, nor any reason to so vehemently bemoan anyone else's use of it.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 28, 2009, 11:27:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFAJDbV9Vfs

These guys are great. Not Linux-centric enough for my tastes, but then I'm not writing their gags.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 29, 2009, 02:40:21 PM
[...]  Not that I have anything to prove.

Of course not.  I was just curious.


Then you don't understand the GPL.  [...]

I'm aware of all those socialist apologetics, and I still prefer freedom, thank you very much.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 29, 2009, 08:41:00 PM
I'm aware of all those socialist apologetics, and I still prefer freedom, thank you very much.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how your beloved Microsoft's use of copyright and patent isn't "socialist".
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 29, 2009, 09:02:50 PM
This thread is all about complementing Microsoft's product quality, particularly from the point of view of desktop operating systems (i.e. Windows 7), business apps (ex. Office 2010), and GUI software development (ex. Visual Studio 2010).

I speak out against "intellectual property" both on this thread and elsewhere.

I've also mentioned that I believe companies like Microsoft can still make a decent profit without government force: membership fees for developer clubs and certification, business contracts, and so on.

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on July 30, 2009, 05:57:10 AM
This thread is all about complementing Microsoft's product quality, particularly from the point of view of desktop operating systems (i.e. Windows 7), business apps (ex. Office 2010), and GUI software development (ex. Visual Studio 2010).

I speak out against "intellectual property" both on this thread and elsewhere.

I've also mentioned that I believe companies like Microsoft can still make a decent profit without government force: membership fees for developer clubs and certification, business contracts, and so on.


Sorry, but the quality I have seen from Microsoft is no better or worse then that of the open-source community. Granted, it is better directed for their business model, but quality? As a desktop environment, to be honest, it doesn't matter a rats ass what I use, but I have yet to meet a person who couldn't sit down and use a modern desktop like gnome or KDE with the most minimal of help.

As a business app, MS Office, especially the last couple of versions adds very little, if anything, to MS office 97.

For development, I cant speak about VS or any other environment as I have never had a need for a "studio", vi works just fine for me, as i know what I'm doing.


Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 30, 2009, 09:14:56 AM
It's interesting that you mention Office 97, because that's all that current open-source packages like OpenOffice.org 3 can compare to.  Office applications are very advanced "under the hood", with the casual user only being aware of like 10% of the features and possibilities - to make them more accessible and easier to use.  A scripting power-user is very much aware of all the innovations that took place with Microsoft technologies over the recent years, and the upcoming .NET version 4 knocks it out of the ballpark.

Linux feels like a Frankenstein with different pieces of the body glued, stitched, and duct-taped together, fitting poorly, behaving differently, with a million spare parts left over, but some essential parts downright rotten or missing altogether.  A fraction of the apps you end up using use GTK, some XUL, some Qt, some Java, some Mono, some are Windows apps that you (hopefully are able to) run via emulation because there are no suitable Linux versions, etc - and many apps are written in slow scripting languages.  Some apps feel like fake buildings they use on movie sets - a hollow shell just pretending to be an app with no substance behind it.

Microsoft's productivity / developer environment feels like one healthy body - harmonious, flexible, and strong.  A single programming framework can be used to control anything and everything once you learn it, and PowerShell gives you even greater control over your system than the UNIX command-line.  And so on.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 30, 2009, 11:39:14 AM
I find this very interesting.

First you say,

This thread is all about complementing Microsoft's product quality, particularly from the point of view of desktop operating systems (i.e. Windows 7), business apps (ex. Office 2010), and GUI software development (ex. Visual Studio 2010).

Then you spend the vast majority of your time simply putting down anything that isn't Microsoft.

Linux feels like a Frankenstein with different pieces of the body glued, stitched, and duct-taped together, fitting poorly, behaving differently, with a million spare parts left over, but some essential parts downright rotten or missing altogether.  A fraction of the apps you end up using use GTK, some XUL, some Qt, some Java, some Mono, some are Windows apps that you (hopefully are able to) run via emulation because there are no suitable Linux versions, etc - and many apps are written in slow scripting languages.  Some apps feel like fake buildings they use on movie sets - a hollow shell just pretending to be an app with no substance behind it.

And everything you say is exactly how Microsoft products work for me. Or rather, they don't. They're patched together by different development teams that don't even talk to each other, using undocumented APIs so that the Justice Department can't punish them for failing to make their APIs available to external developers; bug patching done only when the bug is so bad it's embarrassing the entire company; buying the ISO to certify a standard that is not only unimplementable by anyone outside of Microsoft, but one that even Microsoft doesn't use and apparently never intended to use.

Individual applications written by lots of different people are as variable when compiled for Windows as they are for any other OS. To bemoan that variability when using Linux, and then claim that variability doesn't exist when using Windows is disingenuous at best.

The context of NeuroSlam's use of Office97 wasn't to state that OpenOffice, KOffice and the other F/OSS "office" applications are sadly comparable, "oh woe!", to something 10 years old. It was to point out that Office97 was pretty much the peak of Microsoft development. Office97 is the only thing left of Microsoft that still compares.

Sure, Microsoft might be able to compete in a completely free market. Maybe. It would be good for them if they got off their proprietary business model and started now, before there is nothing left of their company.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 30, 2009, 01:26:32 PM
Yes, I can think of a couple dozen things in some obscure API's that aren't documented for Joe Sixpack, but that never gave me any trouble.  Rumors of those few exceptions have been greatly exaggerated over the years, to the point that those function calls are now legendary and documented on hundreds of third party sites.  It's all a breathe compared to jumping through a dozen forum threads trying to find out how to get a Perl module to do what it's supposed to.  You repeating those commie-lore urban legends about Microsoft API's only demonstrates your lack of practical hands-on Windows developer experience.

The defense rests.  8)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 30, 2009, 05:35:30 PM
You repeating those commie-lore urban legends about Microsoft API's only demonstrates your lack of practical hands-on Windows developer experience.

Not me. Microsoft employees, during MS prosecution for "anti-trust" and during the EU investigations as to how the Samba project was being systematically thwarted in their efforts to be compatible with Windows.

Really, your Astroturf handbook should be more up-to-date than that.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 31, 2009, 03:42:08 PM
Oh noes, evil Microsoft isn't going out of its way to help their competition!  the horror!  the horror!  How dare they even defend themselves at Massa Government's anti-trust trial!  Throw them all in prison stat, right next to Hank Rearden and Lysander Spooner!  :lol:

Seriously, how funny is that - an "open source or bust" activist is accusing me of following a "handbook", just for defending the virtues of capitalist (i.e. non-copyleft) software that the vast majority of businesses choose to use in the free market.  Wow...  In reality only about 1% of users run Linux on the client-side, and the majority of them still keep a Windows / Mac OS / BSD / etc partition.  You socialist "ubuntu" software nuts don't just plant Astroturf, it seems that you've started to smoke it too!

With the advent of Microsoft Stores, I guess now you'll have something other than SUV dealerships and medical research laboratories you can bomb...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on July 31, 2009, 04:26:27 PM
Oh noes, evil Microsoft isn't going out of its way to help their competition!  the horror!  the horror!  How dare they even defend themselves at Massa Government's anti-trust trial!  Throw them all in prison stat, right next to Hank Rearden and Lysander Spooner!  :lol:

Seriously, how funny is that - an "open source or bust" activist is accusing me of following a "handbook", just for defending the virtues of capitalist (i.e. non-copyleft) software that the vast majority of businesses choose to use in the free market.  Wow...  In reality only about 1% of users run Linux on the client-side, and the majority of them still keep a Windows / Mac OS / BSD / etc partition.  You socialist "ubuntu" software nuts don't just plant Astroturf, it seems that you've started to smoke it too!

With the advent of Microsoft Stores, I guess now you'll have something other than SUV dealerships and medical research laboratories you can bomb...

Defend themselves, like copyrighting keystrokes?

Socialism is forced, nothing is forced about Open-source software. Its completely voluntary if you want to use it or if you want to contribute, or if you want to try and make money from it. Thats a true free market. If you are going to label people, make sure you know what you are talking about. Again, there is nothing stopping anyone from making money in the free market using FOSS products. I highly suggest reading "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond. The more I read from you, the more I see that you really don't have a clue about FOSS software.

http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ (http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 31, 2009, 05:03:18 PM
Oh noes, evil Microsoft isn't going out of its way to help their competition!  the horror!  the horror!  How dare they even defend themselves at Massa Government's anti-trust trial!  Throw them all in prison stat, right next to Hank Rearden and Lysander Spooner!

"Defend themselves" by describing a disfunctional, even deliberately crippled, development model, so bad that the obvious failings of that development cannot be demonstrated to be deliberate even in a kangaroo court?

Not a defense that gives me confidence about their products.

Quote
Seriously, how funny is that - an "open source or bust" activist is accusing me of following a "handbook", just for defending the virtues of capitalist (i.e. non-copyleft) software that the vast majority of businesses choose to use in the free market.

Wrong on multiple counts.

1) I'm not "open source or bust", I've said several times that people choosing what works best for them is just fine by me. To deny the choices of others would merely open me to having my choice denied: Hypocrisy.

2) If you don't have a handbook, then you are making the same mistakes, using the same wordings, supporting exactly the same non-proprietary license for the same reasons, as a huge number of apparently coordinated individuals who also post those same errors. http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/linux-sucks-as.html
   You're right, you may very well not be an astroturfer. However, as the saying goes, once is happenstance, twice is circumstance, thrice is enemy action. Me thinkst you do protest far too much.

3) Capitalism is private ownership of property. I don't own my copy of Windows, neither do you own yours. You're just paying for a license to use Microsoft's software, with various restrictions put upon your use of it. (if you didn't just steal it, which you have crowed about in the past)
   To compare, I actually do own the copy of Linux I'm using. I can copy it, sell it, give it away, whatever I want to do with it. It's mine.
   The programmers who wrote the code own that code, and have released that code under the single restriction that if I redistribute their code I do so under the same rules by which I received it.
   So which is "ownership"? Not the Microsoft model.

4) The vast majority of businesses also run various F/OSS, be it Linux or Apache or Tivo or FireFox or OpenOffice or sendmail or any of many, many thousands of other F/OSS projects. Bully for them.

Quote
In reality only about 1% of users run Linux on the client-side, and the majority of them still keep a Windows / Mac OS / BSD / etc partition.

How can you type that and not realize that you're just spewing mindless repetitions of well known Microsoft astroturf FUD?

Please, show me where the Windows partitions are on the top 500 supercomputers in the world. Please.

Oh but of course the astroturf handbook makes sure to always couch those possibly verifiable assertions, such as the "1%", with qualifiers like "client-side", so that when it's pointed out that the overwhelming majority of public-facing web servers run F/OSS, it's possible to say, "But that's not what I was talking about."

Quote
You socialist "ubuntu" software nuts don't just plant Astroturf, it seems that you've started to smoke it too!

Now you're just lying. I neither use Ubuntu nor am I in any way a socialist.

Is this really the quality of your research? I hope not, but it would explain the poor quality of your diatribes against F/OSS.

Your experience and advice in terms of software is usually quite good. It's this one subject in which you are either following someone else's playbook (or handbook, as it were), or you're just utterly blind to your own gross bias.

Quote
With the advent of Microsoft Stores, I guess now you'll have something other than SUV dealerships and medical research laboratories you can bomb...

Gee. I think I'll just leave your emotional tantrum for everyone to see.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on July 31, 2009, 05:18:08 PM
3) Capitalism is private ownership of property. I don't own my copy of Windows, neither do you own yours. You're just paying for a license to use Microsoft's software, with various restrictions put upon your use of it.
Capitalism doesn't allow an owner to license/lease their property?

 
Quote
To compare, I actually do own the copy of Linux I'm using. I can copy it, sell it, give it away, whatever I want to do with it. It's mine. The programmers who wrote the code own that code, and have released that code under the single restriction that if I redistribute their code I do so under the same rules by which I received it.
   So which is "ownership"? Not the Microsoft model.
If you have to follow a restriction, do you really own it?
GPL is a license agreement. The software is licensed to you. You don't own it.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 31, 2009, 06:33:51 PM
Bob Robertson is getting more repetitive, less coherent, and less funny, but he did manage to deliver a laugh by forgetting that apache and sendmail are not copyleft...   He doesn't even remember what he was arguing about!  :lol:


Defend themselves, like copyrighting keystrokes?

Socialism is forced, nothing is forced about Open-source software. Its completely voluntary if you want to use it or if you want to contribute, or if you want to try and make money from it. Thats a true free market. If you are going to label people, make sure you know what you are talking about. Again, there is nothing stopping anyone from making money in the free market using FOSS products. I highly suggest reading "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond. The more I read from you, the more I see that you really don't have a clue about FOSS software.

http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ (http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/)

Once again, I am not against open-source software, only refusal by some of its fanatical proponents to admit that their emperor is butt-naked, so to speak, and their irrational attacks on Microsoft.  I have many years of experience as an open-source advocate (but mostly just on the server-side), and I can almost recite CatB word for word from memory by now.  I do have a strong preference for public domain / BSD type licenses over GPL / copyleft, but that's a separate issue.

Once again, this is a thread about software quality.  Government evils like "intellectual property" (including its use against "GPL violators") are addressed elsewhere.  And I entirely expect my infatuation with Microsoft to only be a phase, until the Linux / Java world stops pissing me off so much.  I guess the frustration with them has been built up over several years, while Microsoft's quality continued to improve.

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 31, 2009, 07:15:09 PM
Capitalism doesn't allow an owner to license/lease their property?

Of course. The objection A.L. makes is that because of the "share and share alike" license, it's somehow socialism since there is a restriction, but Microsoft is capitalist because they sell the licenses, with the accompanying restrictions, for money.

Quote
Quote
So which is "ownership"? Not the Microsoft model.

If you have to follow a restriction, do you really own it?

I really do own the compiled program, yes. What I do not own is the underlying code, which doesn't bother me since I didn't write it.

Quote
GPL is a license agreement. The software is licensed to you. You don't own it.

The code is licensed, yes.

However, this is all in context of A.L.'s objection: that because there is a license it's socialist. Well, by his own definition then Microsoft is socialist, and the only distribution method that isn't "socialist" is public domain.

The problem is not whether or not I think software licenses are or are not "socialist", but that A.L. makes a hypocritical distinction in order to put other people down, and then cries foul when it is pointed out.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 31, 2009, 07:26:36 PM
Bob Robertson is getting more repetitive, less coherent, and less funny, but he did manage to deliver a laugh by forgetting that apache and sendmail are not copyleft...   He doesn't even remember what he was arguing about!

I remember perfectly. Your adherence to the Microsoft astroturf playbook, how Microsoft loves the BSD license but hates the GPL because they can't legally cherry-pick GPL code like they can the BSD.

Oh, and you didn't mention that FireFox isn't GPL either. Really, you should read more closely.

Quote
Once again, I am not against open-source software[/b

As usual, you get to hide behind your qualifiers that it's not "open-source" you're against, just code released under the GPL.

The problem, A.L., you're not reading your posts. Other people are. Maybe, just maybe, the fact that you are constantly being misuderstood (according to you) by everyone else is because they are reading your posts.

Quote
only refusal by some of its fanatical proponents to admit that their emperor is butt-naked, so to speak, and their irrational attacks on Microsoft.

There's a perfect example: You accuse others of "their emperor is butt-naked", but then call the responses to your fawning adoration "irrational attacks on Microsoft".

You, sir, are the one with no clothes.

Quote
Once again, this is a thread about software quality.

Not by the postings you make.

Quote
Government evils like "intellectual property" (including its use against "EULA violators") are addressed elsewhere.  And I entirely expect my infatuation with Microsoft to only be a phase, until the Linux / Java world stops pissing me off so much.

Woops, did I misquote you there? EULA, that's what Microsoft calls their limited use license on their products.

Quote
I guess the frustration with them has been built up over several years, while Microsoft's quality continued to improve.

I've got a non-booting blue-screen-of-death XP laptop on the bench downstairs that says your out of your mind. Such quality, such wonder. Such blind infatuation with marketing.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: digitalfour on August 01, 2009, 09:58:10 PM
Bob, have you tried Windows 7 yet?
Title: Re: Sucks Microsoft
Post by: BobRobertson on August 02, 2009, 10:38:58 AM
Bob, have you tried Windows 7 yet?

No, I haven't. Neither have I "tried" Vista any more than being called in by various neighbors and clients who have it when they need some help finding/fixing/configuring/uninstalling and generally getting this new one to do what they want it to do.

Other than simple curiosity, I have no reason to do so. Simple curiosity is not enough of a motivation, since none of the systems I have are sufficient to run Win7's new "features", and I have no function for it to serve.

Beyond that, I clearly remember when MS marketing declared that Win2 solved all the problems of Win1, then 3, then 3.11, then Win95, then ME, NT, NT4, 2K, XP, Vista, now the marketing department is doing exactly the same song and dance with 7.

I compare Microsoft's marketing hype that to my experience, which is that each version of Windows is just another new version of Windows. It will do some things differently, other things the same, solve some problems and have new ones revealed. Mostly it will just move things around so that it's hard for people to find things to make the new one do what they want it to do.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on August 02, 2009, 11:46:13 AM
Please Bob, you just hate Bill because his Windows is too sexy for your 286.

(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/b/be/Gatesfloppy.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on August 02, 2009, 03:43:45 PM
Please Bob, you just hate Bill because his Windows is too sexy for your 286.

That's a great picture.

Here's one for the Excellent Breasts thread:

(http://www.product-reviews.net/wp-content/userimages/2007/07/linustorvaldsspeedo.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: salimfadhley on August 02, 2009, 06:29:17 PM
I'm using Ubuntu 9.04 - it's great. From time to time I still need Windows XP but on a fast PC I can emulate it in VirtualBox. It runs like a dream... and then when I do not need it I shut down VirtualBox and I am safe again.

Java is great if you want to write robust code which will run absolutely anywhere. If you have to program GUIs and you need a strongly typed language then nothing can touch it. I agree that Perl is dying but Python and Ruby are going strong.

But seriously, if you truly care about liberty you'd be using an OS written by people who actually care about liberty. Clue, that's not Microsoft or Sun. I'm not advocating communism - just pick software made by a company which avoids anti-liberty tech like DRM.

I'm not an anti-MS biggot. I use their stuff at work. It's mostly very good. But it is expensive. I'd never use it at home. Not even if Microsoft gave it to me free.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on August 03, 2009, 03:51:47 PM
Quote
I'm using Ubuntu 9.04 - it's great.

Unless you've got a laptop with an ath9k based wifi chipset, in which case it suck ass bigtime.

Quote
From time to time I still need Windows XP but on a fast PC I can emulate it in VirtualBox. It runs like a dream... and then when I do not need it I shut down VirtualBox and I am safe again.

The super vast majority of people do not NEED Windows. Most people who don't migrate WANT Windows, and often the reason cited is gaming. Virtualization fails for gaming, at least for now, since the virtualized card sucks ass.

And safe from WHAT? Viruses are installed as a result of stupid user behavior such as installing applications from unknown sources or running unneeded apps (i.e. Flash on all the time). Windows CAN run in a way that requires user stupidity to fuck up and the same stupid ass user can fuck up Linux (Seriously, how many people have run 'rm -rf /' after hearing someone tell them to in an IRC channel).

Quote
Java is great if you want to write robust code which will run absolutely anywhere. If you have to program GUIs and you need a strongly typed language then nothing can touch it. I agree that Perl is dying but Python and Ruby are going strong.

*cough* C# */cough*

Quote
But seriously, if you truly care about liberty you'd be using an OS written by people who actually care about liberty.

And what the FUCK OS would that be? Linux, written by "I guess I'm a socialist" Torvalds + the aid of Richard Stallman?

OpenBSD is about as close to an OS written by people who actually care about liberty and that's really only because I've had extensive chats with Theo DeRaadt, and I'd contain that freedom ONLY to the ability to choose and a refusal to use copyright as a means to spread the use of code he writes.

And that ignores that OpenBSD sucks as a desktop OS.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on August 08, 2009, 11:06:37 AM
This

(http://twitxr.com/image/14963/)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Evil Muppet on August 08, 2009, 11:15:44 AM
woo hoo

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Body_painting.JPG)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on August 08, 2009, 12:40:39 PM
In a Toronto subway

(http://www.loconet.ca/gfix/vistalinux.finch.01.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 08, 2009, 01:43:19 PM
Quote
I'm using Ubuntu 9.04 - it's great.

Unless you've got a laptop with an ath9k based wifi chipset, in which case it suck ass bigtime.

Quote
From time to time I still need Windows XP but on a fast PC I can emulate it in VirtualBox. It runs like a dream... and then when I do not need it I shut down VirtualBox and I am safe again.

The super vast majority of people do not NEED Windows. Most people who don't migrate WANT Windows, and often the reason cited is gaming. Virtualization fails for gaming, at least for now, since the virtualized card sucks ass.

And safe from WHAT? Viruses are installed as a result of stupid user behavior such as installing applications from unknown sources or running unneeded apps (i.e. Flash on all the time). Windows CAN run in a way that requires user stupidity to fuck up and the same stupid ass user can fuck up Linux (Seriously, how many people have run 'rm -rf /' after hearing someone tell them to in an IRC channel).

Quote
Java is great if you want to write robust code which will run absolutely anywhere. If you have to program GUIs and you need a strongly typed language then nothing can touch it. I agree that Perl is dying but Python and Ruby are going strong.

*cough* C# */cough*

Quote
But seriously, if you truly care about liberty you'd be using an OS written by people who actually care about liberty.

And what the FUCK OS would that be? Linux, written by "I guess I'm a socialist" Torvalds + the aid of Richard Stallman?

OpenBSD is about as close to an OS written by people who actually care about liberty and that's really only because I've had extensive chats with Theo DeRaadt, and I'd contain that freedom ONLY to the ability to choose and a refusal to use copyright as a means to spread the use of code he writes.

And that ignores that OpenBSD sucks as a desktop OS.

This.


And more news of Microsoft gradually turning in the right direction - from Slashdot -- Microsoft Finally Joins HTML 5 Standard Efforts (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/08/1231231/Microsoft-Finally-Joins-HTML-5-Standard-Efforts) --

Quote
On Friday, Microsoft posted to a mailing list (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0389.html) that IE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer) developers are reviewing the HTML 5 standard (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10305822-92.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5) for future versions of Internet Explorer.

They've given some feedback on the current editor's draft, saying that they "have more questions than answers" and criticizing many of HTML 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_5)'s new tags, like <header>, <footer> and <aside>, calling them "arbitrary" or unnecessary.  It remains to be seen whether Microsoft waited too long to try to influence basic parts of the spec that most of their competitors have already adopted.

I'm a big fan of HTML 5's <video> tag, in hope it will be a YouTube killer.  I've been running a version of Firefox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Firefox_3.5) that has supported it for months, which went stable a month ago.  This forum doesn't support it yet though.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on August 08, 2009, 06:02:16 PM
classic

(http://www.instantattitudes.com/shirts/t021art.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on August 08, 2009, 07:24:50 PM
classic

(http://www.instantattitudes.com/shirts/t021art.jpg)

One hour of broadband to get a copy of XP, 7.5 cents

CD to burn the .iso, 50 cents

The knowledge that nothing on your computer was bought from M$: PRICELESS
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on August 08, 2009, 07:36:12 PM
Stolen
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 10, 2009, 10:42:05 AM
Random thoughts on above:




Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on August 16, 2009, 03:04:08 PM
Not gonna reply to Bob Robertson point-by-point: not worth my time.

You've already tried to do it, and failed. Glad you've finally admitted defeat.

Quote
  • Linus manboobs - hahaha, no.  It's like calling miniature golf "golf".

It was a joke. Just like the Gates picture. Sorry to have to point that sort of thing out.

Quote
Sure, Linux is cheaper to install than Windows - you can only download the parts you need, and install it without burning a CD.

Another lie, AL. Download the entire Debian distribution on 31 CDs or 5 DVDs if you want, with 26,000 software packages from kernels to compilers to web development, multiple browsers, multiple GUIs, multiple video players, multiple audio players, video authoring and editing, hundreds of games, etc. Oh, and that's for each of 12 hardware architectures, mainframes to cell phones, or the entire thing in source code.

OR, not "can only", grab a 35MB bootable business-card CD image.

OR, not "can only", visit http://goodbye-microsoft.com/ and do a live network install without downloading anything ahead of time.

OR, not "can only", drop by http://www.VirtualBox.org/ and run VirtualBox on your present machine, boot one of the install CD images, and give it a try.

Quote
Then... you spend the week with a "WTF, this is it?!  Where's the rest of it!?" feeling before going back to Windows.

Just because it didn't work out for you doesn't mean it won't work for everyone else. From the way you've written, it's clear you were looking for a free-as-in-beer Windows clone.

On that note, have you tried ReactOS.org? If what you want is a clone of Windows, then get a clone of Windows.

But really, considering just what one gets with an install of Windows, it is the sad Windows user who is left to wander the wastelands of third-party software sites hunting for something more useful than FreeCell and Notepad.

Quote
It's kinda of like going vegan - your choices are limited, everything tastes like cardboard, but you actually believe Mother Earth is very proud of you.  Of course you can't enjoy that supposed virtue for virtue's sake, you gotta find some meat-eaters / Microsoft users and tell them how superior you are.  :roll:

Since you started this thread, AL, this last comment is autobiographical by definition.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 17, 2009, 02:36:38 PM
Nice try trying to engage me in further conversation, but the rentacoder.com "Troll For Microsoft" project instructions say I'm to ignore hippie troublemakers like you.  :lol:


(http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/science/linux-socialism.jpg) (http://www.marxist.com/computer-industry-capitalism-free-software240907.htm)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on August 18, 2009, 07:48:40 PM
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/supported_features.png)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 18, 2009, 07:58:25 PM
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/supported_features.png)
That was a good one.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 18, 2009, 09:30:35 PM
In that comic, I agree with the guy on the right.  Being able to run on faster mainframe servers is far more important than "smooth full-screen flash video" (or even a decent lean GUI BitTorrent client), because that's what sane people use Linux for, server-side stuff.

I just checked out KDE 4.3, and it still didn't catch up to Windows 7 in terms of UI experience and stability, but ran far slower.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on August 19, 2009, 09:45:53 AM
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/supported_features.png)

A perfect example, since I just got finished watching http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=91&task=videodirectlink&id=3407 in full screen without trouble.

Now if you want to talk about how Adobe is dragging their feet about releasing their applications for Linux, I'm all for it.

Surely the Linux nay-sayers can come with an actual F/OSS failure, rather than just another example of disfunctional proprietary software like Flash?

because that's what sane people use Linux for, server-side stuff.

Right out of the Microsoft handbook. That's been their line for a decade, since they abandoned the server side to focus their marketing on hanging onto the desktop.

Quote
I just checked out KDE 4.3, and it still didn't catch up to Windows 7 in terms of UI experience and stability, but ran far slower.

Unlike you, A.L., I have no problem with you using whatever works best for you. Your use of Windows is no danger to me, unlike my use of Linux which seems to send you into apoplexy.

"Catch up" is not accurate. KDE4 was out before Win7, so it is a non-sequiter to claim that KDE4 is "catching up". You may prefer one over the other, which is just human nature and the reason there are numerous GUI styles in every computer environment not monopolized by a single vendor.

I prefer KDE3. It's nice to have that choice and be able to run the latest kernels, too. See, A.L.? My personal preference, without pretending that you're stupid for not thinking the same thing.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on August 19, 2009, 07:31:07 PM
Geeze, I'm interjecting humor (as a former Linux zealot, no less!) and I see hostility. So...

Quote
Surely the Linux nay-sayers can come with an actual F/OSS failure, rather than just another example of disfunctional proprietary software like Flash?

Here's one... The GPL-licensed Intel driver's use of the GPL-licensed Linux kernel's Kernel Mode Setting being integrated into the MIT-license Xorg in the variously-licensed Ubuntu distro that is currently the world's most popular.

Or Richard Stallman's very existence.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on August 20, 2009, 08:20:14 AM
Geeze, I'm interjecting humor (as a former Linux zealot, no less!) and I see hostility.

Sadly, in a situation like this, self-depreciating humor only gives fuel to the trolls.

Yes, flash video is a problem. It's just not a F/OSS problem. It's like saying that Voluntarianism doesn't work, because the activists keep getting dragged away in chains.

BTW, thanks for the comic, I just posted it on LXer.com

Quote
The GPL-licensed Intel driver's use of the GPL-licensed Linux kernel's Kernel Mode Setting being integrated into the MIT-license Xorg in the variously-licensed Ubuntu distro that is currently the world's most popular.

The fact that the Intel driver is GPL and Xorg is MIT doesn't seem a problem, since the source is available and the difference is how the source is utilized not the binaries. The person who uses the source files will see the license mentioned in them, so avoiding problems isn't difficult.

One nice thing about Xorg is that the various drivers are modular, not compiled in, so there's no conflict.

The only conflicts are in distributions like Debian, which requires that the base distribution be entirely GPL/BSD/MIT or other fully "free" license. Ubuntu makes no such distinction. As you state, "variously licensed".

Quote
Or Richard Stallman's very existence.

If RMS stopped at "choice". I'd have no problem with him. What he says about the problems of proprietary software is dead on, and his relentless position has been a bright light in the gloom of FUD. But he goes on to the common leftist error of advocating the forcing of choice, the delusion that it's possible to use legal coercion to enforce his idea of right and wrong on others.

I'm glad that Stallman has done what he's done, which has been more effective because of the moderating influences of the various more pragmatic (Torvalds, et al) and libertarian (ESR, et al) individuals. No one person has overwhelming influence, no one has "authority" over anything but their own work. They must persuade, which is wonderful.

A truly voluntary society, Free and Open Source Software.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 11, 2009, 09:27:29 PM
From Slashdot -- Microsoft Launches Its Own Open Source Foundation (http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/09/10/1712247/Microsoft-Launches-Its-Own-Open-Source-Foundation?art_pos=30) --

Quote
Microsoft already had its own open source (OSI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Initiative)-approved) licenses, its own open source project hosting site and now it's adding its own non-profit open source foundation (http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2009/09/microsoft-launches-open-source.html).  That's right, the company that is still banging the patent drum against open source now has its own 501(c) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c))(6) open source foundation. Officially called the CodePlex Foundation (http://www.codeplex.org/), it's a separate effort from the CodePlex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CodePlex) site and is aimed at helping to get more commercial developers involved in open source.  Considering how they continue to attack Linux and open source, will anyone take them seriously?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 12, 2009, 08:34:20 AM
From Slashdot -- Why Users Drop Open Source Apps For Proprietary Alternatives (http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/09/12/0634251/Why-Users-Drop-Open-Source-Apps-For-Proprietary-Alternatives) --

Quote
Hard as it may be to imagine, "free" is not always the primary selling point to open source software. This article makes some interesting points about subtle ways Open Source projects might lose to the competition (http://www.itworld.com/open-source/77409/why-users-dumped-your-open-source-app-proprietary-software).

Lack of features is a common answer you'd expect, but the author points out that complicated setup and configuration can be a real turn-off. Moreover, open source companies may not do enough to market major upgrades. If they did, they might lure back folks who tried and dumped the earlier, less polished version. This raises the question: what made you dump an open source app you were using? What could that project have done differently?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on September 12, 2009, 10:06:59 AM
Now if you want to talk about how Adobe is dragging their feet about releasing their applications for Linux, I'm all for it.
They probably realize the ROI wouldn't be enough to make it worth while to do.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: PlainShane on September 12, 2009, 12:28:51 PM
There exists a large internet community that would flame me for what I am about to say. I love Linux, yet believe that is a hobby OS. In other words, it's really just around as a second partition on the computer of most males between the ages of 16 - 35 for the purpose of a puzzle. It's fun to dick around with Ubuntu, search google for solutions, and then get the satisfaction that you got it to work. The reality that most subscribe to of it some day overtaking Windows and Mac is a pie in the sky.

I still use Ubuntu on a regular basis due to its speed, efficiency, and fun factor.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on September 12, 2009, 07:52:30 PM
I love Linux, yet believe that is a hobby OS.

Hardly flame-bait, if you mean that it's your "hobby" OS.

I keep a VirtualBox install of WinXP for exactly that reason, dicking around with it.

But I wouldn't try to tell others that WinXP is a "hobby" OS for them.

Quote
In other words, it's really just around as a second partition on the computer of most males between the ages of 16 - 35 for the purpose of a puzzle.

Ah, and there's the kicker.

You would get flamed not for using Linux as a hobby OS, but for making that judgement for other people.

Why not ask people what they use it for, rather than making judgements about people you haven't met? Post a query to LXer.com asking, "For me it's a hobby, what do you use it for?" and see what kind of responses you get.

Posing the question like that I don't think anyone will flame you at all.

Quote
The reality that most subscribe to of it some day overtaking Windows and Mac is a pie in the sky.

The reality is that Windows and Mac will both pass, given time, as will Linux. Not sure if Vegas is taking bets on which one will go first.

Another reality: If Microsoft fails, Windows is GONE. If Apple fails, OSX is GONE. No such single point of failure exists for Linux, including Linus Torvalds himself, although I am sure that his vacating his position would be unsettling.

Quote
I still use Ubuntu on a regular basis due to its speed, efficiency, and fun factor.

I don't use Ubuntu, but yeah, I agree it's all that.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: PlainShane on September 13, 2009, 03:00:26 AM
My judgment was a generalization I formed after spending an endless amount of time on ubuntuforums.org. The statement was not just conjured up by my imagination; it is the conclusion easily drawn from reading many testimonials. The "hobby OS" saying was borrowed from the fellows of the Linux Action Show. It is a common opinion and debate. I apologize if it appeared that I was making demands for all to believe it is a hobby OS, rather it is my own opinion and that of many others.

Linux sure is a great place to run to when one thinks their windows install has a virus!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on September 13, 2009, 08:14:01 PM
My judgment was a generalization I formed after spending an endless amount of time on ubuntuforums.org.

Well, then I guess I will trust your judgement that Ubuntu is all that.

However, as you will find if you peruse more than that forum, Linux is far, far more than just Ubuntu.

Quote
I apologize if it appeared that I was making demands for all to believe it is a hobby OS, rather it is my own opinion and that of many others.

Considering the self-selecting "many", that's easy to understand.

Quote
Linux sure is a great place to run to when one thinks their windows install has a virus!

I've found that a Linux liveCD is the best Windows rescue disk.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 13, 2009, 10:19:06 PM
A Linux LiveCD is indeed a very useful tool, but there are some things that it can't do to save a corrupt Windows partition that a proprietary tool can.  Sure, the latter costs money, but...  arrr....  ;)

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on September 14, 2009, 05:43:07 AM
Just for you AL
(http://hardtruth.navhost.com/images/microgates2.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 14, 2009, 10:42:31 AM
Not that is an irrefutable argument...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on September 14, 2009, 11:04:01 AM
Not that is an irrefutable argument...


I know right
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on September 14, 2009, 01:49:36 PM
That abused swastika. It was funny to still see them used in Japan for maps, to show the locations of temples and shrines.

(http://www.wallpaperlinux.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=633&g2_serialNumber=2)

Argumentation by graphic is an old and venerable tradition amongst those who would appeal to emotions rather than intellect, right brain rather than left brain.

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 23, 2009, 12:08:34 PM
From Slashdot -- Microsoft Tax Dodge At Issue In Washington State (http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/22/225233/Microsoft-Tax-Dodge-At-Issue-In-Washington-State) --

Quote
With Washington State facing a billion-dollar biennial budget deficit, the spotlight again shifts to Microsoft's software licensing office in Reno, Nevada (http://blog.reifman.org/2009/09/road-balanced-budget-leads-to-microsoft.html).

"Although the majority of its software development is performed in Washington State, Microsoft records its estimated $18 billion in licensing revenue per year through a corporate office in Reno, Nevada where there is no licensing tax. Just by enforcing the state's existing tax law from 2008 onwards, we could reduce Washington's revenue shortfall by more than 70 percent. Alternately, we could pursue the entire $707 million from Microsoft's thirteen years of tax dodging and cover most of the expected deficit going forward."

We have discussed Microsoft's creative (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/01/2137228&tid=11) capitalism (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/04/1520219&tid=11) in the past.


The linux commies are out for blood...

(http://geekz.co.uk/shop/images/che-stallman-sticker-show.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BonerJoe on September 23, 2009, 12:23:22 PM
It's for the children.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 23, 2009, 11:54:24 PM
From Slashdot -- Firefox To Replace Menus With Office Ribbon (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/09/23/1846248/Firefox-To-Replace-Menus-With-Office-Ribbon?art_pos=5) --

Quote
Mozilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla) has announced that its plans to bring Office 2007's Ribbon interface to Firefox (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/351808/firefox-tidies-up-with-office-2007s-ribbon), as it looks to tidy up its "dated" browser.  "Starting with Vista, and continuing with Windows 7, the menu bar is going away", notes Mozilla in its plans for revamping the Firefox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Firefox) user interface.  "[It will] be replaced with things like the Windows Explorer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Explorer) contextual strip, or the Office Ribbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_%28computing%29), [which is] now in Paint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_(software)) and WordPad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordPad), too."  The change will also bring Windows' Aero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Aero) Glass effects to the browser.


(http://www.pcpro.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_PC_Pro/dir_273/it_photo_136831_52.jpg) (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/351808/firefox-tidies-up-with-office-2007s-ribbon)


Firefox, indisputably the most successful open source user app (http://royal.pingdom.com/2009/05/29/the-8-most-successful-open-source-products-ever/) in history, runs faster (http://www.favbrowser.com/windows-vs-linux-firefox-firefox-wine-and-opera/) and looks better on Microsoft Windows.  :D

The aforementioned interface changes are slated for version 3.7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Firefox#Version_3.7) scheduled for around May-June 2010.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on September 23, 2009, 11:57:11 PM
Opera > Mozilla
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: PlainShane on September 24, 2009, 01:48:56 AM
Opera was good back in dial-up days. Wait a hot second... That quote says that they are bringing the glass aero effect to firefox, yet it has always been there. I can wave my firefox browser around and see through the transluscent borders.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on September 24, 2009, 04:11:15 AM
Opera was good back in dial-up days. Wait a hot second... That quote says that they are bringing the glass aero effect to firefox, yet it has always been there. I can wave my firefox browser around and see through the transluscent borders.
Opera is far better now.  In every way.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 24, 2009, 07:38:44 AM
Here's my problem.  I have an Acer Power 1000 (piece of crap) that keeps shutting down for no known reason (blogs claim it's overheating, but I installed speedfan and watched the temps and that's not it) but I discovered it will run for days in safe mode without crashing.  I figured this was a good candidate for my return to Linux so I installed Ubuntu 9.x and it was working great.  Then I wanted to play a .flv file that I downloaded so I used the movie player and requested the correct plugin to run .flv files.  It went through the search and download and now my movie player is "dedicated" to playing this same video clip of a girl with a laptop (never downloaded it) and I cannot use it to stream GCN anymore.  Malware for Linux??  I thought this kind of hijacking is a windows exclusive...

Any ideas or do I just need to re-install Ubuntu?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 24, 2009, 09:35:30 AM
Are you sure you were watching the right temps?  (CPU and not the HD.)  I'm not saying you're stupid, but there things happen.

Also, which Linux player were you using?  Ubuntu typically makes non-kosher codecs fairly easy (http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Jaunty) (sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras w32codecs mozilla-plugin-vlc etc).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BonerJoe on September 24, 2009, 09:48:59 AM
Here's my problem.  I have an Acer Power 1000 (piece of crap) that keeps shutting down for no known reason (blogs claim it's overheating, but I installed speedfan and watched the temps and that's not it) but I discovered it will run for days in safe mode without crashing. 

Probably bad video memory.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on September 24, 2009, 03:48:08 PM
It went through the search and download and now my movie player is "dedicated" to playing this same video clip of a girl with a laptop (never downloaded it) and I cannot use it to stream GCN anymore.  Malware for Linux??  I thought this kind of hijacking is a windows exclusive...

I have to agree and wonder just what player has been "hijacked", xine?  vlc? mplayer? Aviplayer? Noatune? Dragonplayer?

If one is having trouble, does another work?

Quote
Any ideas or do I just need to re-install Ubuntu?

The Linux distribution environment is far more modular than Windows. It's very, very rarely required to "reinstall" when what you're having trouble with is an application. First I'd say see if another player is also effected, before we go getting extreme.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: ChristianAnarchist on September 24, 2009, 09:08:08 PM
It's the movie player that came with Ubuntu.  Totem Movie Player 2.26.1.  I'm new to this o.s. so I have zero experience (other than some command line stuff from 20 years ago that is very fuzzy now)...

Right now I'm installing the dragon and I will see how that works...

The Speedfan application shows all temps available to the system.  None of them show out of spec or even on the high side (but then I took off the side cover and removed the HD which is laying next to the case several months back).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: PlainShane on September 25, 2009, 12:33:20 AM
VLC plays flv files flawlessly. Be sure to get the ubuntu restricted extras as noted.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Zhwazi on September 25, 2009, 03:26:18 AM
Windows = Good implementation of bad design
Linux = Bad implementation of good design
OpenSolaris = Good implementation of good design
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 25, 2009, 03:59:51 AM
... on a server.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on September 25, 2009, 08:46:15 AM
Windows = Good implementation of bad design
Linux = Bad implementation of good design

I understand what you mean, even if I disagree.

The Linux kernel isn't designed, it has evolved.

Distributions demonstrate the insights and limitations of the people who create them, from one-man-shows that do what that one person wants very well, much like the Austin Mini, to the huge team efforts like Debian that put their greatest effort into the simple goal of making applications from disparate developers work on the same system without conflicts.

Quote
OpenSolaris = Good implementation of good design

As plausible as I find that statement, I have no experience with which to place it in context, because Solaris has never, ever, successfully installed.

People talk about it, so I conclude it does in fact work for someone, but I've tried numerous times since 1996 and it's just never worked. I'm sure it's because I've only tried the x86 versions, or some other factor over which I have control but just didn't know was critical.

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Zhwazi on September 25, 2009, 10:17:14 AM
... on a server.

On a server, on my desktop, on my Latitude, and on my netbook. Runs all of 'em quite nicely! The only issues I've had are side effects of it's lack of popularity (e.g. never been tested with my model of camera, some specific applications not available, etc) and not due to any fault of the system itself.

Windows = Good implementation of bad design
Linux = Bad implementation of good design

I understand what you mean, even if I disagree.

The Linux kernel isn't designed, it has evolved.

Distributions demonstrate the insights and limitations of the people who create them, from one-man-shows that do what that one person wants very well, much like the Austin Mini, to the huge team efforts like Debian that put their greatest effort into the simple goal of making applications from disparate developers work on the same system without conflicts.
I know Linux isn't designed, and it shows. Evolution is good for systems that have their own intent. For tools and operating systems, design is the obvious winner.

Quote
Quote
OpenSolaris = Good implementation of good design.

As plausible as I find that statement, I have no experience with which to place it in context, because Solaris has never, ever, successfully installed.
For me neither. That's why I said Opensolaris. Solaris 10u5 dies at GRUB. Opensolaris since 2008.05 through 2009.06 has installed flawlessly for me every time.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on September 25, 2009, 11:25:17 AM
For me neither. That's why I said Opensolaris. Solaris 10u5 dies at GRUB. Opensolaris since 2008.05 through 2009.06 has installed flawlessly for me every time.

I mean OpenSolaris, also.

I am very glad it works for you. It's also nice to have another perspective on things that isn't just ms/mac/lin sniping at each other.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Zhwazi on September 25, 2009, 01:34:47 PM
I actually went back and read the whole stupid thread. (okay, I skimmed a few posts, but I read mosts posts on every page.)

Then again, Torvalds made the huge mistake of picking GPL over BSD, thus prolonging Microsoft's OS domination for at least another decade...

...So by ensuring that Microsoft cannot embed Linux code legally, Microsoft has been forced to spend vastly more time and treasure trying, and failing, to keep up with F/OSS innovation and progress.

Ya gotta love the copyleft fanatics trying to pretend that their desktop / productivity software isn't 5-10 years behind Microsoft's, or that they can compete with BSD on the server...

This.

GPL is an attempt to create a gigantic pool of communist code (communism works for software) that can only be combined with other GPL code. (Stuff that is BSD, MIT, ISC, etc licensed might as well just be forked and GPL'd when included into a GPL program.) This is retarded, and forces both open source and proprietary software writers to reinvent wheels for licensing reasons. GPL'ing software is a dick move. BSD and public domain are freest, if you must have copyleft there's CDDL which still allows for code reuse under proprietary licenses but requires that modifications get put back, minimizing software parasitism and maximizing code reuse.

Freedom means lack of restriction, which includes restrictions ostensibly to preserve freedom.


Fascinating. First you say...

Microsoft isn't the only one who'd be "cherry-picking code out of the BSD and MIT licensed systems" - their competitors can too, including tiny start-ups.  In fact, being the biggest software-oriented company in the world, Microsoft needs BSD code the least.  BSD is the great equalizer.

Then you reverse yourself and say...

Quote
GPL / copyleft has been the great cancer on the software industry, delivering crummy quality that's useless to 80-99% of desktop users, while making it impossible for serious competitors to rise up and challenge Microsoft.

So which is it? Which does your Microsoft Astroturf Play-Book tell you to use when your contradictions are brought to light?

There's no contradiction there. BSD is an equalizer, GPL makes it hard for serious competitors to challenge Microsoft. I don't agree that BSD is necessarily an equalizer but there's no contradiction there.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on October 04, 2009, 06:18:43 PM
Now that Karmic is in Beta, I'm using it.

Totem is still fraked, but VLC works. I'm quite impressed, and it's replaced Windows on my laptop.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 04, 2009, 06:55:59 PM
I've started a separate thread about...  Karmic Koala Kubuntu (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=27550.0)  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on October 04, 2009, 07:52:58 PM
Ok, today I tried to get the eval of Win7 to see what y'all were talking about.

The Microsoft site wouldn't let me get it. Period.

Windows won't work for me even if I _want_ it to! It's not my fault!  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 05, 2009, 12:09:59 AM
You snooze, you... pirate (http://thepiratebay.org/search/windows%207/0/7/300).

(http://windows7forums.com/attachments/windows-7-desktop-customization/604d1241936088-windows-7-desktop-screenshot-windows-pirated.jpg) (http://windows7forums.com/windows-7-desktop-customization/878-windows-7-desktop-screenshot-8.html)


EDIT: oh, speaking of KMPlayer (notice the icon) - it's on FFMPEG's Hall of Shame (http://ffmpeg.org/shame.html)...  The commie lawyers should be coming along shortly...  :roll:
Title: Solaris finally works, Windows sucks.
Post by: BobRobertson on October 05, 2009, 09:53:42 AM
You snooze, you... pirate (http://thepiratebay.org/search/windows%207/0/7/300).

I've said it before, and since you've said this before I get to say it again: I don't want to use the product of someone who doesn't want me as a customer. Why "pirate" when I can get better for free?

And if I really get desperate, I can always look at YouTube to see what Win7 looks like.



Zhwazi, I did finally get OpenSolaris to boot and install. At last! I, for one, am relieved.

It's also clear why I was unable to get it installed previously: The default VirtualBox settings for the minimal OpenSolaris install are HUGE! I've never had a system before this last summer that had what those settings require, much less the ability to set aside that much RAM just to run the VM.

So my previous "big" system with 512MB and a 2.8GHz P4 just didn't have what it takes to run Solaris.

Now that it's installed, and I have had a chance to run through it, I honestly think that Sun has successfully copied what Linux distributions have been doing for years.

It's a good copy, the package management is quite clean and easy. I prefer KDE to their use of GNOME, but that's just personal preference.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Zhwazi on October 05, 2009, 05:03:34 PM
KDE is available in a third-party repository, and is quite heavily still in the process of porting, so it's not 100% stable and functional yet, but it is usable for me. Only major components I'm missing is an IRC client and an MSN/WLM client, pretty much everything else is there.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 07, 2009, 12:11:01 PM
From Slashdot -- Microsoft Research Shows Off Multi-Touch Mouse Prototypes (http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/10/05/185226/Microsoft-Research-Shows-Off-Multi-Touch-Mouse-Prototypes?art_pos=6) --

Quote
Engadget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engadget) has snagged some of the details behind a bunch of multi-touch mouse prototypes (http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/05/microsoft-research-shows-off-multitouch-mouse-prototypes/) from Microsoft Research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Research). The prototypes range from the wacky to the extreme, but at least they are thinking outside the mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_%28computing%29) trap.

"Each one uses a different touch detection method, and at first glance all five seem to fly in the face of regular ergonomics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomics). The craziest two are probably "Arty", which has two articulated arms to cradle your thumb and index finger, with each pad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch#Multi-touch_pads) housing its own optical sensor for mission-critical pinching gestures, and "Side Mouse" which is button free and actually detects finger touches in the table immediately in front of the palm rest. Of course, there's plenty of crazy in the FTIR, Orb Mouse, and Cap Mouse, which rely on an internal camera, orb-housed IR camera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_photography) and capacitive detection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitive_sensing), respectively. Of course, there's no word on when these might actually see the light of day."

Check out that video (http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/05/microsoft-research-shows-off-multitouch-mouse-prototypes/) (original link in bold) - coolness!


And, on a related note, also from Slashdot -- Contest Winners Show Potential For Pressure-Sensitive Keyboard (http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/10/08/2152239/Contest-Winners-Show-Potential-For-Pressure-Sensitive-Keyboard?art_pos=1) --

Quote
About a month ago, Microsoft sent out prototype pressure sensitive keyboards to 40 international teams. They had four weeks to hack and cobble together some cool ideas. The innovation contest that centered around the keyboards released the winners last night (http://www.acm.org/uist/uist2009/program/sicwinners.html) (after a voting period Monday night at the ACM UIST conference (http://www.acm.org/uist/uist2009/)). Some pretty neat ideas, ranging from pressure-sensitive password entry (Safelock), magnetic pens for cursor control (Hidden Forces), and even cool climbing (Rock Climbing) and land-deformation games (BallMeR).

It is inevitable that Microsoft will lose some basic markets to open source, but what's important is that it continues to move forward into new markets.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NuroSlam on October 08, 2009, 04:55:19 AM
KDE is available in a third-party repository, and is quite heavily still in the process of porting, so it's not 100% stable and functional yet, but it is usable for me. Only major components I'm missing is an IRC client and an MSN/WLM client, pretty much everything else is there.

What was yer preferred IRC client?
I myself perfer console clients - bitchx and irssi (current client)
but I know that mirc will run under wine as im sure most M$ Platform clients will

I have never liked windows irc clients and I hate to say it, the worst are on GNU/OS at least since I last looked at them

With a small amount of effort irssi will also allow most if not all IM protocols to be used

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 08, 2009, 07:01:17 PM
Pidgin, irssi, Chatzilla, Trillian, etc.


From Slashdot -- Microsoft Leaks Details of 128-bit Windows 8 (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/10/08/1432228/Microsoft-Leaks-Details-of-128-bit-Windows-8) --

Quote
Microsoft is planning to make Windows 8 a 128-bit operating system (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/enterprise/352270/microsoft-leaks-details-of-windows-8-and-windows-9), according to details leaked from the software giant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_largest_software_companies)'s Research department. The discovery came to light after Microsoft Research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Research) employee Robert Morgan carelessly left details of his work (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:X-SeLBi04IgJ:www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-morgan/16/303/aa4+Robert+Morgan,+Senior+Research+and+Development+at+Microsoft&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk) on the social-networking site LinkedIn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinkedIn).

His page read: "Working in high-security department for research and development involving strategic planning for medium and long-term projects. Research & Development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_and_development) projects including 128-bit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128-bit) architecture compatibility with the Windows 8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Windows#Windows_8) kernel and Windows 9 project plan. Forming relationships with major partners: Intel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Corporation), AMD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices), HP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard) and IBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM)." It has since been removed.


It's about time someone started thinking about 128-bit mainstream computing!  Why wait for those slow-poke hardware manufacturers to release 64-bit drivers - in fact, why not just jump straight into 256 bits?!  I mean, given the hyperinflation we're about to have, I'm not even sure UINT_MAX of 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 will be enough a decade from now!  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Zhwazi on October 09, 2009, 01:54:15 AM
KDE is available in a third-party repository, and is quite heavily still in the process of porting, so it's not 100% stable and functional yet, but it is usable for me. Only major components I'm missing is an IRC client and an MSN/WLM client, pretty much everything else is there.

What was yer preferred IRC client?
I myself perfer console clients - bitchx and irssi (current client)
but I know that mirc will run under wine as im sure most M$ Platform clients will

I have never liked windows irc clients and I hate to say it, the worst are on GNU/OS at least since I last looked at them

With a small amount of effort irssi will also allow most if not all IM protocols to be used
I've tried Irssi and generally liked it, but I mostly use Xchat. Lately it's been freezing on me (it only happens in the one configuration of user list and room list that I like, major PITA) so I've been using Pidgin's IRC functionality. My favorite overall is Quassel.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on October 10, 2009, 07:28:49 AM
Pidgin, irssi, Chatzilla, Trillian, etc.


From Slashdot -- Microsoft Leaks Details of 128-bit Windows 8 (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/10/08/1432228/Microsoft-Leaks-Details-of-128-bit-Windows-8) --

Quote
Microsoft is planning to make Windows 8 a 128-bit operating system (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/enterprise/352270/microsoft-leaks-details-of-windows-8-and-windows-9), according to details leaked from the software giant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_largest_software_companies)'s Research department. The discovery came to light after Microsoft Research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Research) employee Robert Morgan carelessly left details of his work (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:X-SeLBi04IgJ:www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-morgan/16/303/aa4+Robert+Morgan,+Senior+Research+and+Development+at+Microsoft&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk) on the social-networking site LinkedIn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinkedIn).

His page read: "Working in high-security department for research and development involving strategic planning for medium and long-term projects. Research & Development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_and_development) projects including 128-bit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128-bit) architecture compatibility with the Windows 8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Windows#Windows_8) kernel and Windows 9 project plan. Forming relationships with major partners: Intel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Corporation), AMD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices), HP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard) and IBM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM)." It has since been removed.


It's about time someone started thinking about 128-bit mainstream computing!  Why wait for those slow-poke hardware manufacturers to release 64-bit drivers - in fact, why not just jump straight into 256 bits?!  I mean, given the hyperinflation we're about to have, I'm not even sure UINT_MAX of 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 will be enough a decade from now!  :lol:


I hate myself for understanding every single bit of that post

pun, as always, intended
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 10, 2009, 03:31:38 PM
I hate myself for understanding every single bit of that post

pun, as always, intended

Ha!  I deliberately made the mistake of putting 2**128 as UINT_MAX instead of 2**128-1 (to adjust for 0), thus entrapping you into claiming to understand "every single bit", thereby proving that you don't.

And if all your puns are always intended, does that mean you were standing under a post?

:lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on October 11, 2009, 01:24:50 PM
Microsoft's marketing department strikes again.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 15, 2009, 09:36:32 AM
From Slashdot -- Michael Dell Says Windows 7 Will Make You Love PCs (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/10/15/0442259/Michael-Dell-Says-Windows-7-Will-Make-You-Love-PCs) --

Quote
In a recent talk at the Churchill Club (http://churchillclub.org/), Michael Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dell) addressed several topics, including the fact that Windows 7 is poised to take advantage of the upgrade cycle (http://gigaom.com/2009/10/13/michael-dell-talks-up-services-and-coming-upgrades-but-trashes-netbooks/).  Dell has always been a strong MS OEM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_equipment_manufacturer) ally and it is now hoping to cash in again from the impending upgrades.

From the post, "Dell made plain several times that he sees the installed base of technology as very old, and sees a coming 'refresh cycle', for which he has high hopes. 'The latest generation of chips from Intel is strong, particularly Nehalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Nehalem_%28microarchitecture%29)', he said, adding, 'and Windows 7 is on its way'.  (The operating system arrives Oct. 22nd, although Microsoft's large-volume licensees are already getting it.)  He pointed out that many business are running Windows XP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP), which is eight years old. "I've been using Windows 7 for a long time now," he said, "and if you get the latest processor technology and Office 2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_2010) with it, you will love your PC again.  It's a dramatic improvement'."


Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell) is currently in the process of swallowing Perot Systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perot_Systems) for $3.9 billion.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Zhwazi on October 16, 2009, 05:36:23 AM
Windows 7 sucks less, I must admit. Though I make it no secret to my customers at work who say they want to skip Vista to get something better, Windows 7 is pretty much Vista, but boots a lot faster, runs a little faster, and has little improvements here and there. They don't seem to mind, because it's not Vista, it's 7.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 16, 2009, 05:53:46 AM
The final version of 7 is actually even faster than the Release Candidate, and on latest hardware - ZOOOM!

Unfortunately the slowest part of the OS is the one that gets the most CPU usage for the vast majority of users - Internet Explorer.  But it's easy enough to replace...



Anyways, here's a Windows 8 concept video:

[youtube=425,350]G0r6tINInrw[/youtube]
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on October 16, 2009, 08:20:55 AM
Anyways, here's a Windows 8 concept video:

I'll just wait for that one, then.

In the mean time, the latest Debian on 5 year old hardware, ZOOOOM!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 16, 2009, 10:20:52 AM
I'm busy playing the latest bleeding-edge Direct3D game.

Can you e-mail me a PowerPoint presentation about it?

:lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 16, 2009, 11:35:14 AM
The final version of 7 is actually even faster than the Release Candidate, and on latest hardware - ZOOOM!

Unfortunately the slowest part of the OS is the one that gets the most CPU usage for the vast majority of users - Internet Explorer.  But it's easy enough to replace...



Anyways, here's a Windows 8 concept video:

[youtube=425,350]G0r6tINInrw[/youtube]
Anyone else notice the uTorrent logo on the taskbar?

Is that an official video?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 16, 2009, 11:43:10 AM
That's like asking Tyler Durden if Flight Club is real.  ;)

[youtube=425,350]s9UKl199tsU[/youtube]
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Harry Tuttle on October 16, 2009, 12:57:18 PM
What I need to know is - will there be a new driver for my Radeon 9250? I can't use aero or RD to my vista box without crashing it.  :x
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 16, 2009, 02:59:31 PM
Ew, that is so 6 years ago.  :lol:

And have you tried Google (http://www.google.com/search?q=radeon+9250+windows+7+driver)?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 21, 2009, 10:11:45 PM
From Slashdot -- Windows 7 On Multicore - How Much Faster? (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/10/21/1234214/Windows-7-On-Multicore-mdash-How-Much-Faster) --

Quote
InfoWorld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoWorld)'s Andrew Binstock (http://binstock.blogspot.com/) tests whether Windows 7's threading advances fulfil the promise of improved performance and energy reduction (http://www.infoworld.com/d/windows/windows-7-multicore-how-much-faster-325).  He runs Windows XP Professional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP_editions), Vista Ultimate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista_editions), and Windows 7 Ultimate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions) against Viewperf (http://sourceforge.net/projects/viewperf/) and Cinebench (http://www.maxon.net/index.php?id=162&L=0) benchmarks using a Dell Precision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Precision) T3500 workstation, the price-performance winner of an earlier roundup of Nehalem-based workstations (http://www.infoworld.com/d/hardware/nehalem-workstations-new-era-in-performance-600).

"What might be surprising is that Windows 7's multithreading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multithreading) changes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_7#Core_operating_system) did not deliver more of a performance punch", Binstock writes of the benchmarks, adding that the principal changes to Windows 7 multithreading consist of increased processor affinity, "a wholly new mechanism that gets rid of the global locking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_%28computer_science%29) concept and pushes the management of lock access down to the locked resources (http://www.infoworld.com/d/windows/how-intel-nehalem-processors-and-windows-7-work-together-335)", permitting Windows 7 to scale up to 256 processors without performance penalty, but delivering little performance gains for systems with only a few processors.  "Windows 7 performs several tricks to keep threads running on the same execution pipelines so that the underlying Nehalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Nehalem_%28microarchitecture%29) processor can turn off transistors on lesser-used or inactive pipelines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_pipeline)", Binstock writes.  "The primary benefit of this feature is reduced energy consumption", with Windows 7 requiring 17 percent less power to run than Windows XP or Vista.


Notice how the Marxist GNU crusaders are trying to spin a positive story into a negative one, but they're not fooling anyone except themselves.  As one commenter put it:

Quote
It's not surprising because the OS really can't do that much to improve (or mess up) the performance of user-mode code that isn't making many OS calls anyways.

What is surprising is that power consumption could be so significantly reduced.  This story could have come out with an entirely different spin if the headline were simply, "Windows 7 Reduces Power Consumption by 17%."


The word is that Microsoft is reacting to the first-world recession by focusing on optimisation, and a 17% power reduction is a huge accomplishment.  The blow-you-away GIGApixel-twirling innovations will have to wait for Windows 8.  ;)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on October 22, 2009, 08:49:39 AM
From Slashdot --

Bleh.

Quote
The word is that Microsoft is reacting to the first-world recession by focusing on optimisation

About bloody time.

After 15 years of continually loading on un-removable bloat and useless eye-candy, some "optimization" would be a welcome change. I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 22, 2009, 10:11:05 AM
All that "useless eye-candy" has always been possible to disable if you knew what you're doing, but those visual effects are now an industry standard for most desktop operating systems.  Microsoft makes an OS for the broad market, not just people who couldn't afford a new computer for the past five years.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on October 22, 2009, 11:29:11 AM
All that "useless eye-candy" has always been possible to disable if you knew what you're doing

Big "if". Of course, people in the Microsoft Astroturf program have access to that sort of information.

Quote
but those visual effects are now an industry standard for most desktop operating systems.

Luckily, in all but two of the "desktop" OSs that I know of, such eye-candy is not merely optional, but of a variety and quality that blows those two "broad market desktops" away. If, of course, that's what you want to spend your CPU cycles on.

Because, in all but two of the "desktop" OSs that I know of, the graphical user interface is just another application. Not part of the core OS at all. That provides a realm of variety, stability and security that Microsoft users cannot even imagine, as they reboot because Internet Explorer has gone unstable again.

Microsoft built its eye-candy into the OS directly, wasting my time disabling what they turn on by default, and making it impossible to optimize my system as anything other than a "broad market desktop".

I am not a "broad market". My system is not a "broad market desktop", neither is yours. Defaults are sometimes a good place to start, what sucks is getting stuck with someone else's defaults.

My preference is choice. I like very much having the choice of what style of "desktop" to use today. Full featured with eye-candy, clean and square (yes, in fact I do like my applications to have square corners), minimalistic without even desktop icons or polling of removable storage. Can't do all that on a "broad market desktop".

Quote
Microsoft makes an OS for the broad market, not just people who couldn't afford a new computer for the past five years.

Microsoft deliberately makes an OS that requires near state-of-the-art hardware just to run their eye-candy. If that's what you want to spend your money on, you are more than welcome. 3-D effects work just fine on my ca. 2003 laptop, just not Microsoft's versions of those effects.

It has nothing to do with "couldn't afford", and I find your insulting people who don't have as much money as you do rather typical of what I've read of your opinions.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 22, 2009, 06:16:42 PM
Due to recent BT site outages there's some confusion over which torrent is the actual retail version.  I took a leap of faith on the most popular one -- Windows 7 Ultimate AIO Activated (http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Windows-7-Ultimate-AIO-Activated/3952e08041663bf8c7a61868e6a708aa26889f10aa45) -- and it worked perfectly.  The dates in the setup are older, but it is build 7600 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Windows_7#Release_to_manufacturing) with no expiration.  I guess I could have upgraded from RC sooner, but, like most people, I wanted to wait and see if it was really the final retail build.

I was also able to upgrade all my Windows boxes (one 7 RC and two XP (http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Windows-XP-Professional-32-bit-en-US-Black-Edition-v2009-7-20/4252cd7a7f62133f4d0a62f0f85510cf146d531832ed)) without a DVD/USB (http://www.intowindows.com/installing-windows-7-without-using-dvdusb-drive-method-2/).  No activation nags so far, and if I ever get any there's a crack out already.  Oh, and the release version feels even faster than the RC!  :D

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 22, 2009, 07:50:53 PM
Due to recent BT site outages there's some confusion over which torrent is the actual retail version.  I took a leap of faith on the most popular one -- Windows 7 Ultimate AIO Activated (http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Windows-7-Ultimate-AIO-Activated/3952e08041663bf8c7a61868e6a708aa26889f10aa45) -- and it worked perfectly.  The dates in the setup are older, but it is build 7600 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Windows_7#Release_to_manufacturing) with no expiration.  I guess I could have upgraded from RC sooner, but, like most people, I wanted to wait and see if it was really the final retail build.

I was also able to upgrade all my Windows boxes (one 7 RC and two XP (http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Windows-XP-Professional-32-bit-en-US-Black-Edition-v2009-7-20/4252cd7a7f62133f4d0a62f0f85510cf146d531832ed)) without a DVD/USB (http://www.intowindows.com/installing-windows-7-without-using-dvdusb-drive-method-2/).  No activation nags so far, and if I ever get any there's a crack out already.  Oh, and the release version feels even faster than the RC!  :D


Please update if you end up getting activation nags.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 22, 2009, 08:19:56 PM
It never asked me for activation or serial, and Windows Genuine Advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage) worked w/o any problems.  I tried several anti-virus / anti-spyware progs - they didn't find anything wrong.  I'll keep this thread updated if any problems come up.

It recognized most of my hardware right off the bat, and the rest of it after just one Windows Update (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Update) reboot.  All software I regularly install (much of which is from Microsoft, some free and some pirated) installed & fully updated without any complaints.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 22, 2009, 08:32:37 PM
It never asked me for activation or serial, and Windows Genuine Advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage) worked w/o any problems.  I tried several anti-virus / anti-spyware progs - they didn't find anything wrong.  I'll keep this thread updated if any problems come up.

It recognized most of my hardware right off the bat, and the rest of it after just one Windows Update (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Update) reboot.  All software I regularly install (much of which is from Microsoft, some free and some pirated) installed & fully updated without any complaints.

So it actually did the Windows Update?  Seriously?

Sounds good.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Bill Brasky on October 22, 2009, 08:42:32 PM
If you want your machine to be faster, you could always pour your valuable time and resources into learning to configure some hackazoid bullshit OS for a few extra nanoseconds of performance.  Its like a rechargeable battery, except you recharge it with your own time and energy.  You pour several hundred hours into it, and reclaim a nanosecond here and a nanosecond there. Perhaps in four thousand years, you will be on the plus side of the umpteen hundred hours.  Or you could simply not really give a fuck, and operate something that is adequate 99% of the time - and be pretty happy when something better is packaged in cellophane, which you already know the basics of its operation. 

I think I'll opt for the latter, and entertain myself by reading the faux-elitist mind-droppings of the people who are avid believers in the former. 

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to master the particulars of an open-source OS, to be able to considerably outperform an off-the-shelf system?  Five to ten years, I expect.  Is all that brain crunching really worth being able to open one more window, or the extra micro-second that your program will be up and running while mine grinds to life?  Because I'm not really ripping my hair out while the hour-glass spins twice, after clicking on something.  That half-second doesn't amount to shit, after the two hour movie starts to roll, I don't watch it in double-speed.  Nor would I condense my several hours of browsing time into fifteen minutes of efficient speed-webbing.  I'll be here several hours, no matter what I'm running.  I'm just thrilled as a motherfucker that I have a pretty decent device that's not running on dial-up. 

As technology advances for all of us, I'm sure a few years out things will be slicker than gooseshit on ice.  Just like they are now, compared to the clunky piece of garbage you were running in Y2K.  Its amazing how in nine short years, they packed a machine fifty times faster into a box 1/10th the size, and I didn't have to read a dozen laborious manuals to reap the rewards.  Just trot my fat ass out to Best Buy and get a new machine every once in a while, when the old one is obsolete. 

Thats not to say I don't appreciate the deep-geeks who blaze into the frontier of the cutting edge.  The true advancements are largely due to the guys and girls who speak those obscure languages.  And I'm genuinely thankful for their efforts.  But just like we who browse and jerk around on Windoze who make no effect on the brilliant future of technology, the same can be said for the others who flail away at home on strange exotic OS's, who never contribute one damn thing to the universe.  It doesn't matter what you're driving if the car never leaves the yard.  Speaking and dreaming in foreign languages is a great accomplishment, but it doesn't have any bragging rights unto itself.  Its just your personal method. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on October 22, 2009, 08:56:10 PM
There are good places for Linux stuff, but it isn't the desktop.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 22, 2009, 09:24:10 PM
So it actually did the Windows Update?  Seriously?

Sure, and I've installed the 2010 previews for Visual Studio / Office / Project / SharePoint / Visio.  Some of the best minds in the world love to get cracking on the latest DRM schemes, and they usually have it smashed to pieces by morning after it's released.  Microsoft didn't even bother trying anything particularly fancy this time.  I've pirated every Microsoft OS since DOS 5.00.  ;)

The only people who get nailed are those who download stuff from untrustworthy sources.  On a BitTorrent site, know who the uploader, his long-term reputation, and let a few (thousand) people try it before you, and read their comments.


There are good places for Linux stuff, but it isn't the desktop.

Linux is never the best choice for anything...








Yes, linux 2.6 did pass FreeBSD in some benchmarks a few years ago, but only because it was getting like 100x more attention from the GPL crybabies and the corporations that try to appease them...

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BonerJoe on October 22, 2009, 09:28:52 PM
What can Linux do that OS X can't do?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on October 22, 2009, 09:36:27 PM
I've got a bunch of Ethernet and Fibre Channel switches that run Linux. I've never had a problem with them.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 22, 2009, 09:41:23 PM
If you want your machine to be faster  [...]

Good points, but it can be a great learning experience as well.  I'm still a C programmer at heart, and I've learned a lot about optimization from messing with Gentoo Portage (http://funroll-loops.info/) and then LFS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_From_Scratch).  Compiling with pentium4m, -O3, and other optimizations always gets me a 5-15% boost right off the bat, getting rid of the libs I don't need goes further, and then there's prelinking, etc.  Of course most Linux users don't do that, while most BSD users do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ports_collection).


What can Linux do that OS X can't do?

Make smoke come out of your desktop when you modprobe the wrong video card driver...  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on October 22, 2009, 10:08:32 PM
If you want your machine to be faster  [...]

Good points, but it can be a great learning experience as well.
It'd also be a great learning experience to rebuild the engine in your car. But most people just want to drive the car. They could care less what is under the hood.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 22, 2009, 10:09:59 PM
So it actually did the Windows Update?  Seriously?

Sure, and I've installed the 2010 previews for Visual Studio / Office / Project / SharePoint / Visio.  Some of the best minds in the world love to get cracking on the latest DRM schemes, and they usually have it smashed to pieces by morning after it's released.  Microsoft didn't even bother trying anything particularly fancy this time.  I've pirated every Microsoft OS since DOS 5.00.  ;)

The only people who get nailed are those who download stuff from untrustworthy sources.  On a BitTorrent site, know who the uploader, his long-term reputation, and let a few (thousand) people try it before you, and read their comments.



I'm a veteran to bit torrent buddy.

There is some skepticism to this cracked version though it seems.  People seem to believe that this version will update one day and no longer work.  I tend to believe them.  I'm just finishing up the install on VMware, as I don't feel like rebooting to try it out.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 22, 2009, 10:15:20 PM
Yeah, I'm not doing anything missing-critical on it either.  I'll let you know if/when it breaks.  ;)


It'd also be a great learning experience to rebuild the engine in your car. But most people just want to drive the car. The could care less what is under the hood.

Well, we're talking about people who've chosen it as a career path here.  Rebuilding the engine is a must if you're engineering the next generation Corvette.  Rebuilding the kernel is a must if you're engineering an embedded solution that must handle more hits per second than the competition...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on October 22, 2009, 10:21:37 PM
Yeah, I'm not doing anything missing-critical on it either.  I'll let you know if/when it breaks.  ;)


It'd also be a great learning experience to rebuild the engine in your car. But most people just want to drive the car. The could care less what is under the hood.

Well, we're talking about people who've chosen it as a career path here.  Rebuilding the engine is a must if you're engineering the next generation Corvette.  Rebuilding the kernel is a must if you're engineering an embedded solution that must handle more hits per second than the competition...

I'm talking about most people.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Bill Brasky on October 22, 2009, 10:30:13 PM
If you want your machine to be faster  [...]

Good points, but it can be a great learning experience as well.  I'm still a C programmer at heart, and I've learned a lot about optimization from messing with Gentoo Portage (http://funroll-loops.info/) and then LFS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_From_Scratch).  Compiling with pentium4m, -O3, and other optimizations always gets me a 5-15% boost right off the bat, getting rid of the libs I don't need goes further, and then there's prelinking, etc.  Of course most Linux users don't do that, while most BSD users do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ports_collection).


I'm all for learning things.  Its just that some of these guys think because their experience is personally rewarding, it makes my own enjoyment pale, even laughable.  I don't get that part.  I don't really care about the guts.  The stimulation I seek comes from the up-front part of the web.  I gots my tunes, my vids, my webz, my emails, a whole pile of little handy-dandy gizmos and an infinite pile out there in the ethereal to keep me stoked that I haven't even begun to fuck with.  

I see generally good comments coming out about 7, I'm looking fwd to trying it.  But to me its a novelty, and I can almost guarantee I'll like it.  For me, it would be impossible for 7 to be a hateful pile of suck.  

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: rabidfurby on October 23, 2009, 01:26:14 AM
If you want your machine to be faster, you could always pour your valuable time and resources into learning to configure some hackazoid bullshit OS for a few extra nanoseconds of performance.  Its like a rechargeable battery, except you recharge it with your own time and energy.  You pour several hundred hours into it, and reclaim a nanosecond here and a nanosecond there. Perhaps in four thousand years, you will be on the plus side of the umpteen hundred hours.  Or you could simply not really give a fuck, and operate something that is adequate 99% of the time - and be pretty happy when something better is packaged in cellophane, which you already know the basics of its operation.

It's a pattern a lot of hobbyist-type activities seem to follow. Some people spend thousands of dollars on an espresso machine so their morning cup of coffee can be just perfect; others drink the caffeinated horse piss from Dunkin' Donuts. Some buy classic cars and rebuild the engine; others just take their Honda to Jiffy Lube every couple months. Some cook five-course meals with wine pairings for each course; others microwave a Hungry-Man dinner and crack open a Bud.

And, some people build their computers from scratch and/or install their own, customizable OSes; others buy whatever at Best Buy is the shiniest.

In every case, the snobs/connoisseurs/hobbyists/whatever don't understand how everyone else can put up with such mediocre crap when there's clearly such a better alternative.

Meanwhile, the average joes don't understand why the snobs make such a fuss about everything. They're happy with what they've got, and don't understand why people waste so much time with the other stuff, when it's pretty much all the same anyway.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Bill Brasky on October 23, 2009, 02:10:04 AM
Hm.  You excluded my admiration part.   Well played. 

I am duty bound as a member of the Louts to challenge you to a duel.  Razor blades or poison gas grenades.  Your choice.  We shall meet on the field of honor at dawn.  Inform your next of kin. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 23, 2009, 03:04:23 AM
If you want your machine to be faster  [...]

Good points, but it can be a great learning experience as well.  I'm still a C programmer at heart, and I've learned a lot about optimization from messing with Gentoo Portage (http://funroll-loops.info/) and then LFS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_From_Scratch).  Compiling with pentium4m, -O3, and other optimizations always gets me a 5-15% boost right off the bat, getting rid of the libs I don't need goes further, and then there's prelinking, etc.  Of course most Linux users don't do that, while most BSD users do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ports_collection).


I'm all for learning things.  Its just that some of these guys think because their experience is personally rewarding, it makes my own enjoyment pale, even laughable.  I don't get that part.  I don't really care about the guts.  The stimulation I seek comes from the up-front part of the web.  I gots my tunes, my vids, my webz, my emails, a whole pile of little handy-dandy gizmos and an infinite pile out there in the ethereal to keep me stoked that I haven't even begun to fuck with.  

I see generally good comments coming out about 7, I'm looking fwd to trying it.  But to me its a novelty, and I can almost guarantee I'll like it.  For me, it would be impossible for 7 to be a hateful pile of suck.  


I'm happy with it.  I've been running it in VMware for a few hours now alongside my vista install.  It's good.  Just like Vista with a slightly different skin.  Nothing special though, I'm not going to fork out the 100 bucks to purchase a copy.  Not for a while anyways.
Title: Re: Linux works just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on October 23, 2009, 12:58:19 PM
What can Linux do that OS X can't do?

Install on hardware that isn't from Apple, and so costs a fraction of the price.

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to master the particulars of an open-source OS, to be able to considerably outperform an off-the-shelf system?

No "mastery" at all. The core UNIX-style system is inherently more efficient, so it "outperforms" what I must assume you mean to be a store-bought Windows system on the same hardware.

The gist of what I think your question really is, which I have to assume, seems to be "how hard is it to make an alternative (again, assuming Linux since that is common in the thread) work better than Windows for me?"

I can't tell you because I'm not you. I can't say what factors are going to "outperform" one way or the other in your subjective opinion.

What A.L. can't stand is that I'm not telling everyone to use Linux, I'm countering his misinformation. He, rather, is telling everyone just how bad everything but Windows is for everyone.

If Windows is what works best for you, then by all means use it. I suggest not to avoid trying other things, since at the worst doing so will make you appreciate what works for you even more.

In every case, the snobs/connoisseurs/hobbyists/whatever don't understand how everyone else can put up with such mediocre crap when there's clearly such a better alternative.

Beautifully said.

Quote
Meanwhile, the average joes don't understand why the snobs make such a fuss about everything.

That's why there are different models of cars, too. And home-builts, kit-cars, etc.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 24, 2009, 12:59:54 AM
That Windows 7 is still working great.  No nags or surprises of any kind.

There's a Slashdot story called "When Libertarians Attack Free Software (http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/10/23/1446219/When-Libertarians-Attack-Free-Software)", but I'm too sleepy right now to even quote it here.

My beef isn't with "free software", it's with fanatical devotion to clearly inferior technologies just because they're "free", and the violence inherent in copyleft licensing.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Bill Brasky on October 24, 2009, 01:48:21 AM
If you want your machine to be faster  [...]

Good points, but it can be a great learning experience as well.  I'm still a C programmer at heart, and I've learned a lot about optimization from messing with Gentoo Portage (http://funroll-loops.info/) and then LFS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_From_Scratch).  Compiling with pentium4m, -O3, and other optimizations always gets me a 5-15% boost right off the bat, getting rid of the libs I don't need goes further, and then there's prelinking, etc.  Of course most Linux users don't do that, while most BSD users do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ports_collection).


I'm all for learning things.  Its just that some of these guys think because their experience is personally rewarding, it makes my own enjoyment pale, even laughable.  I don't get that part.  I don't really care about the guts.  The stimulation I seek comes from the up-front part of the web.  I gots my tunes, my vids, my webz, my emails, a whole pile of little handy-dandy gizmos and an infinite pile out there in the ethereal to keep me stoked that I haven't even begun to fuck with.  

I see generally good comments coming out about 7, I'm looking fwd to trying it.  But to me its a novelty, and I can almost guarantee I'll like it.  For me, it would be impossible for 7 to be a hateful pile of suck.  


I'm happy with it.  I've been running it in VMware for a few hours now alongside my vista install.  It's good.  Just like Vista with a slightly different skin.  Nothing special though, I'm not going to fork out the 100 bucks to purchase a copy.  Not for a while anyways.

Do you think it would perform better if it was operating by itself? 
Title: Re: Linux works just fine.
Post by: Bill Brasky on October 24, 2009, 03:06:13 AM

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to master the particulars of an open-source OS, to be able to considerably outperform an off-the-shelf system?

No "mastery" at all. The core UNIX-style system is inherently more efficient, so it "outperforms" what I must assume you mean to be a store-bought Windows system on the same hardware.

The gist of what I think your question really is, which I have to assume, seems to be "how hard is it to make an alternative (again, assuming Linux since that is common in the thread) work better than Windows for me?"

I can't tell you because I'm not you. I can't say what factors are going to "outperform" one way or the other in your subjective opinion.

What A.L. can't stand is that I'm not telling everyone to use Linux, I'm countering his misinformation. He, rather, is telling everyone just how bad everything but Windows is for everyone.

If Windows is what works best for you, then by all means use it. I suggest not to avoid trying other things, since at the worst doing so will make you appreciate what works for you even more.


What I mean is, all the little tweaks that must be performed when you have conflicts.  That seems to be the thing I see the most:  "I had to blabedy-blah the such-n-such to get it to recognize [whatever]" 

I plug in my camera, it reads the card.  I plug in my printer, it says Hello Printer!  I haven't installed a driver in a long time.  Everything reads, everything works.  I used to get very frustrated with Win98, before everything was plug-n-play.  I download a program, click [accept] the terms, and away we go. 

This may seem lazy, but I don't even have to read the stuff carefully on the box if I buy hardware or software.  I buy what I need, what I like best.  I don't have to wonder if it'll work, or fuck with it to get it working.  Even if I went beyond what I'm comfortable with, like buying a new hard drive or video card, I'm fairly sure I could just buy a good one and pop the fucker in.  (I'd read some forums first, of course, in case there was some tricky trick)

I understand and respect the fact there is a hobbyist aspect to geeking, like Furb so eloquently stated.  Thats cool.  My hobbies lie elsewhere.  For many of us, the machine has become the hub of a general entertainment lifestyle.  I turn it on, it makes me happy.  Taking it apart or fiddling with the code does not make me happy. 

Now, get ready for a laugh.  In my little universe, I'm the resident geek.  Parents, kids, friends, I'm the one they come to when their stuff is fucked up.  I can usually get it goin', and if it wasn't for M$, I'd never be able to help them if everyone was running a different OS.  It'd be a huge pain in the balls.  They used to pull that shit at work, custom device bullshit which they'd have to configure, conflicts out the ass.  Probly why I'm so resistant to stuff like that.  I like simplicity, having been trapped and tortured out of workplace necessity, having to stick with it, and put up with crap.  Calling out techs at 2am to fix their own mistakes.  Fucking around in little dossy dialogue boxes with improperly trained support fucks over the phone who had no clue what they were actually doing.  That shit is torture. 

Microsoft is a godsend, as far as I'm concerned.  If it wasn't for them, there'd be another widely utilized "industry standard" OS, I'm sure.  And I'd use that. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 24, 2009, 11:15:23 AM
If you want your machine to be faster  [...]

Good points, but it can be a great learning experience as well.  I'm still a C programmer at heart, and I've learned a lot about optimization from messing with Gentoo Portage (http://funroll-loops.info/) and then LFS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_From_Scratch).  Compiling with pentium4m, -O3, and other optimizations always gets me a 5-15% boost right off the bat, getting rid of the libs I don't need goes further, and then there's prelinking, etc.  Of course most Linux users don't do that, while most BSD users do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ports_collection).


I'm all for learning things.  Its just that some of these guys think because their experience is personally rewarding, it makes my own enjoyment pale, even laughable.  I don't get that part.  I don't really care about the guts.  The stimulation I seek comes from the up-front part of the web.  I gots my tunes, my vids, my webz, my emails, a whole pile of little handy-dandy gizmos and an infinite pile out there in the ethereal to keep me stoked that I haven't even begun to fuck with.  

I see generally good comments coming out about 7, I'm looking fwd to trying it.  But to me its a novelty, and I can almost guarantee I'll like it.  For me, it would be impossible for 7 to be a hateful pile of suck.  


I'm happy with it.  I've been running it in VMware for a few hours now alongside my vista install.  It's good.  Just like Vista with a slightly different skin.  Nothing special though, I'm not going to fork out the 100 bucks to purchase a copy.  Not for a while anyways.

Do you think it would perform better if it was operating by itself? 
Yes.  Then I could give it all 6 gigs of my RAM instead of just 2.5.  And all 4 cores of my cpu instead of just 2.  But VMWare isn't horrible at distributing resources.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 24, 2009, 07:25:17 PM
There is some skepticism to this cracked version though it seems.  People seem to believe that this version will update one day and no longer work.  I tend to believe them.  [...]

Do you have a reasonably coherent source for this?  My installs are still 100% perfect, updates and all.


Oh heck, even Linus gives Windows 7 a big thumbs up:

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_COt6T7Tmrok/SuAp5A54riI/AAAAAAAAAow/rWQ8NvS3wYk/s800/dsc_1576.jpg) (http://picasaweb.google.com/cschlaeger/JapanLinuxSymposium#5395358413061926434)

:lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 24, 2009, 07:53:55 PM
There is some skepticism to this cracked version though it seems.  People seem to believe that this version will update one day and no longer work.  I tend to believe them.  [...]

Do you have a reasonably coherent source for this?  My installs are still 100% perfect, updates and all.


Oh heck, even Linus gives Windows 7 a big thumbs up:

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_COt6T7Tmrok/SuAp5A54riI/AAAAAAAAAow/rWQ8NvS3wYk/s800/dsc_1576.jpg) (http://picasaweb.google.com/cschlaeger/JapanLinuxSymposium#5395358413061926434)

:lol:

No, just "word on the street".  I think the issue is that it updates.  MS will put an update that will undo the crack at some point, forcing you to activate it.  That's the word at least.

It's running perfectly fine in VMware for me, but I'm still afraid to do a full install and set all of my stuff up all over again for it if I'm just going to end up having to buy it before I am ready.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 24, 2009, 08:21:27 PM
I keep OS + Programs on a separate partition from the rest of the data, and I backup that partition daily.  If it gets un-cracked, I'll restore it, immediately disable updates, and wait for an updated crack to appear on BitTorrent - or ask some of my friends, they might have that crack a day before BT sites get it right.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on October 24, 2009, 08:29:03 PM
I keep OS + Programs on a separate partition from the rest of the data, and I backup that partition daily.  If it gets un-cracked, I'll restore it, immediately disable updates, and wait for an updated crack to appear on BitTorrent - or ask some of my friends, they might have that crack a day before BT sites get it right.

Good call, just too much work for me.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on October 25, 2009, 02:07:10 PM
I bought a $350 disposable Acer laptop with Windows 7. I think that is the only way I will be buying it, bundled with new hardware.
Title: Re: Linux works just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on October 25, 2009, 04:05:41 PM
What I mean is, all the little tweaks that must be performed when you have conflicts.  That seems to be the thing I see the most:  "I had to blabedy-blah the such-n-such to get it to recognize [whatever]"  

True, to a lesser extent all the time. I've had the same experience with MS-Win, chasing down drivers and making registry edits. I don't think any system can support everything just the way you want it without going through some effort.

Quote
I plug in my camera, it reads the card.  I plug in my printer, it says Hello Printer!  I haven't installed a driver in a long time.  Everything reads, everything works.

That's how Linux works for me. I didn't install any drivers for the three cameras I plugged in this morning (vacation trip yesterday, lots of pictures) and pulled the pictures from. My printer worked first time, etc.

I did have to tell the printing subsystem what printer it was, and name it for the network printing service. That's not what I would call a difficult install.

Quote
This may seem lazy, but I don't even have to read the stuff carefully on the box if I buy hardware or software.  I buy what I need, what I like best.  I don't have to wonder if it'll work, or fuck with it to get it working.  Even if I went beyond what I'm comfortable with, like buying a new hard drive or video card, I'm fairly sure I could just buy a good one and pop the fucker in.  (I'd read some forums first, of course, in case there was some tricky trick)

And that's what I do, too. With pretty much the same level of "checking", that is reading some forums and doing a google-search in case there is some trick needed.

However, you do check to see if it's Win, Mac, any of numerous game consoles, hardware minimums, etc. I've always wondered why compatibility checking before buying is no big deal to the point of not mentioning it if it's between all those different systems, but add Linux to the mix and suddenly it's a huge effort.

The pre-packaged software for Linux that I've gotten has all "just worked" too. Sadly, most of the kids games that I have that worked just fine up through Win2K are now failing to run on XP, Vista and Win7. And not esoteric games either, Disney Interactive, Thomas the Tank Engine, things like that.

I agree that bleeding-edge hardware might not be supported, but let's also stipulate that many hardware makers don't take any time to do anything but write Windows drivers. A friend of mine tried to use Win2K back when WinXP was all the rage, and I don't think he was ever able to find all the drivers for his hardware to work 100% under Win2K. So he found himself in the same position as some Linux users, with hardware from OEMs that didn't care to support his OS of choice.

The reverse is also true, however. Once hardware is supported in Linux, it remains supported. While many Windows users upgrade the OS and find themselves with hardware that no longer works or is no longer fast enough to do what it did before, once something works under Linux it keeps on working as the kernel evolves.

Quote
I understand and respect the fact there is a hobbyist aspect to geeking, like Furb so eloquently stated.

That's what I see in Windows and Mac fan-boys, too. I think it's a geek thing, not a Linux thing. Of course there are Windows geeks, there are as many deep wells of tricks and tweaks in Windows as there are in Linux or any other OS.

OSs are complex systems.

Quote
Now, get ready for a laugh.  In my little universe, I'm the resident geek.  Parents, kids, friends, I'm the one they come to when their stuff is fucked up.  I can usually get it goin', and if it wasn't for M$, I'd never be able to help them if everyone was running a different OS.

I should have read ahead and used this as my example of Windows geeks. I, also, spend almost all of my family/friends support time getting Windows working for them. I know enough to make things work pretty well, but I'd never call myself an expert.

The few I've converted to Linux don't ask for support. They just work.

Quote
They used to pull that shit at work, custom device bullshit which they'd have to configure, conflicts out the ass.  Probly why I'm so resistant to stuff like that.  I like simplicity, having been trapped and tortured out of workplace necessity, having to stick with it, and put up with crap.  Calling out techs at 2am to fix their own mistakes.  Fucking around in little dossy dialogue boxes with improperly trained support fucks over the phone who had no clue what they were actually doing.  That shit is torture.  

One of the benefits of free software is that code is vetted by more than one person on an ongoing basis. This makes for very stable code.

Quote
Microsoft is a godsend, as far as I'm concerned.  If it wasn't for them, there'd be another widely utilized "industry standard" OS, I'm sure.  And I'd use that.

Of course there would, for all the good reasons of common experience and common formats. All the reasons that Win95 took the world by storm. I used Win95, too.


My beef isn't with "free software", it's with fanatical devotion to clearly inferior technologies just because they're "free", and the violence inherent in copyleft licensing.

They're not inferior, AL, just because you don't perfer them.

And as for the violence inherent in copyleft, how about the fact that you're under dire violent threat for stealing your Win7?

Somehow copyright is violent if it is used to enforce a software license you don't like, but copyright is magically not violent when it is used to enforce a software license you publicly violate and urge others to violate on a program you like?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Evil Muppet on October 25, 2009, 05:33:37 PM
I got Windows 7 on my computer now and it works great.  Linux sucks.  It is nothing but hours and hours of headache. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 26, 2009, 11:52:03 PM
From Slashdot -- Microsoft Opening Outlook's PST Format (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/10/26/1936227/Microsoft-Opening-Outlooks-PST-Format) --

Quote
Microsoft Interoperability (http://www.microsoft.com/interop/) is working towards opening up Outlook's .pst format (http://blogs.msdn.com/interoperability/archive/2009/10/26/roadmap-for-outlook-personal-folders-pst-documentation.aspx) under their Open Specification Promise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Open_Specification_Promise).  This should "allow anyone to implement the .pst file format (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Storage_Table) on any platform and in any tool, without concerns about patents, and without the need to contact Microsoft in any way."

"In order to facilitate interoperability and enable customers and vendors to access the data in .pst files on a variety of platforms, we will be releasing documentation for the .pst file format. This will allow developers to read, create, and interoperate with the data in .pst files in server and client scenarios using the programming language and platform of their choice. The technical documentation will detail how the data is stored, along with guidance for accessing that data from other software applications. It also will highlight the structure of the .pst file, provide details like how to navigate the folder hierarchy, and explain how to access the individual data objects and properties.

Another small step in the right direction.

The "Personal Storage Table" file format is also used with Windows Messaging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Messaging) and Exchange Client (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Exchange_Client).  It was already possible to convert PST files to some degree via libpst (http://www.five-ten-sg.com/libpst).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Zhwazi on October 28, 2009, 08:06:21 AM
Somehow copyright is violent if it is used to enforce a software license you don't like, but copyright is magically not violent when it is used to enforce a software license you publicly violate and urge others to violate on a program you like?
I say this as a BSD user in the kindest and least condescendingly arrogant of ways, but GPL is a contradictory ambiguous clusterfuck, popular not for reasons of technical or legal superiority but merely due to it being an accepted default (like Windows), deliberately incompatible with other licenses not blessed by that idiot RMS, it's a poorly-thought-out attempt to work within a fundamentally wrong system to subvert it (a mistake libertarians everywhere keep making).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on October 28, 2009, 10:35:11 AM
I say this as a BSD user in the kindest and least condescendingly arrogant of ways, but GPL is a contradictory ambiguous clusterfuck...

I'm just trying to point out the hypocrisy inherent in A.L.'s Microsoft Astroturfers Handbook.

I don't disagree with your position on the GPL, since it's your position and you're welcome to it.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 02, 2009, 05:04:36 PM
From Slashdot -- uTorrent To Build In Transfer-Throttling Ability (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/11/01/2131249/uTorrent-To-Build-In-Transfer-Throttling-Ability) --

Quote
TorrentFreak (http://torrentfreak.com/) reports that a redesign of the popular BitTorrent client (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_BitTorrent_clients) uTorrent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9CTorrent) allows clients to detect network congestion and automatically adjust the transfer rates (http://torrentfreak.com/utorrent-2-0-to-elimininate-the-need-for-isp-throttling-091031/), eliminating the interference with other Internet-enabled applications' traffic.

In theory, the protocol senses congestion based on the time it takes for a packet to reach its destination, and by intelligent adjustments, should reduce network traffic without causing a major impact on download speeds and times.  As said by Simon Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_%28company%29) (from TFA (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA)), "The throttling that matters most is actually not so much the download but rather the upload - as bandwidth is normally much lower UP than DOWN, the up-link will almost always get congested before the down-link does."  Furthermore, the revision is designed to eliminate the need for ISP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_service_provider)'s to deal with problems caused by excessive BitTorrent traffic on their networks, thereby saving them money and support costs.  Apparently, the v2.0b (http://www.filehippo.com/download_utorrent/history/) client using this protocol is already being used widely, and no major problems have been reported.

It's quality software like μTorrent that makes Windows desktop unbeatable.

Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on November 02, 2009, 06:21:42 PM
utorrent is and always has been the best torrent software out there.  Too bad they never ported it to mac   :?. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 03, 2009, 01:16:48 PM
Deluge is good.  8)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 03, 2009, 02:35:41 PM
Deluge is something any Python script kiddy could write with libtorrent and PyGTK.  It's even slower than Azureus / Vuze, but has far fewer features!  KTorrent is better, but not by much.  μTorrent is so fast and light it just boggles my mind!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 03, 2009, 05:51:21 PM
Yet it works fine under most environments and isn't that bloated (save for the Windows version, blame the fags behind GTK for that one).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 04, 2009, 05:31:31 AM
I'd rather blame them for their copyleft license, which restricts so many possibilities...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Lukey on November 04, 2009, 10:42:09 AM
You have got to be joking Linix Rocks! it never breaks, its free, it has more features, it has no built in spyware, its easy to set up, the internet runs on it, its secure, there are many-many different types -- you would not have a lot of electronic devices without it -- . Maybe you never made the small learning curve or had the wrong type of linux, try linux mint if you cant use that then you should rap youself in the microsoft blanket and and continue dishing out piles of money for you virus infected broken before you start software : )
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 04, 2009, 11:08:02 AM
I have many years of Linux experience as a developer, and I know its kernel like the back of my hand, so believe me - it's not the learning curve.  But if the Linux ports of the Nvidia / ATI drivers suck on my computers, then there's nothing one can do.

I never had any virus do me any damage in my 17+ years of hands-on computing, and I never had any problems with Windows from 2000 onwards.  Ran some very complicated server deployments without reboot for months.  Sure, Linux is better on servers and embedded devices, but this thread is purely about the desktop experience.  Sure, Linux is free, but in any real-world situation the cost of Microsoft licensing pales in comparison to the benefits of running their products.

Linux just won't run Office 2010, Visual Studio 2010, and other best-of-the-breed software, much less games.  Even Firefox runs better on Windows!  And any Linux program can run on Windows just fine - either directly, through Cygwin / Interix / CoLinux, or from a remote / VM UNIX box via an X server.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 04, 2009, 12:07:47 PM
I'd rather blame them for their copyleft license, which restricts so many possibilities...




In all seriousness, that's why I like other modern FOSS licenses for supporting my own development projects. But again, you're playing the bullshit card claiming GPL equals BSD equals Creative Commons equals MIT and etc, when they do not. When you get back some consistency in your arguments, then bother to reply, otherwise I refer to you to the following image...

(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6043/left4deadteamfortress2k.gif)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on November 04, 2009, 12:29:13 PM
You have got to be joking Linix Rocks! it never breaks, its free, it has more features, it has no built in spyware, its easy to set up, the internet runs on it, its secure, there are many-many different types -- you would not have a lot of electronic devices without it -- .

Don't bother. If you read much of A.L.'s posts, you're realize he has a huge blind-spot where Microsoft is concerned.

I think he worships Bill Gates a god of some sort. Or they pay him. Anyway, I can't explain it any other way.


But if the Linux ports of the Nvidia / ATI drivers suck on my computers, then there's nothing one can do.

Amazing how, if Windows had a lousy nVidia or ATI driver, you'd blame nVidia or ATI for not supporting your Windows properly.

Why the double-standard, A.L.?

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Sure, Linux is free, but in any real-world situation the cost of Microsoft licensing pales in comparison to the benefits of running their products.

Tell that to the majority of web servers in the world, including this one.

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Linux just won't run Office 2010, Visual Studio 2010, and other ... software, much less games.

Of course not, because the authors of those programs do not compile them to run on Linux.

Again the deliberately blind double-standard, giving a pass to lazy developers who don't bother to compile their software for other OSs.

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And any Linux program can run on Windows just fine - either directly, through Cygwin / Interix / CoLinux, or from a remote / VM UNIX box via an X server.

Demonstrating only that F/OSS developers don't have the same laziness, ignorant bias, or idiot platform like Windows that can't utilize 20-year-old open standards to efficiently display their warez remotely, how did you put it A.L., "via an X server"?

I remember when the best (and may be still the best) remote server function for Windows was provided by an application called "Back Orifice". It still requires hacks just to make Windows play nice in any heterogeneous environment.

Microsoft's most effective marketing tool remains simple ignorance.


But again, you're playing the bullshit card claiming GPL equals BSD equals Creative Commons equals MIT and etc, when they do not. When you get back some consistency in your arguments, then bother to reply

Let's not misquote A.L.'s statements, they're damning enough without making them up for him.

A.L. is all for the BSD, MIT and any other license that let Microsoft poach code. He's said so many times.

It's right there in his Microsoft Astroturfer's Handbook that the BSD license is GOOD because it increases Microsoft's freedom, the GPL and anything to do with Richard Stallman is BAD.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on November 04, 2009, 01:01:41 PM
(Related?)

My new laptop came today, and it has Windows 7 on it. It's damn sexy.

I've been using Ubuntu. It's nice, but I like Windows better. Although I'm still gonna dual-boot on this machine.

Maybe when I get a new desktop in a few months I might simply like it enough to run it as my sole OS... or not.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 04, 2009, 02:26:22 PM
I think he worships Bill Gates a god of some sort. Or they pay him. Anyway, I can't explain it any other way.

I don't get paid, and I don't even pay for any Microsoft software (see above).  The vast majority of the programming work that I do isn't Windows related.  This thread is all about admitting that as of this year most Microsoft desktop products surpass their FOSS equivalents, and it would be intellectually dishonest of me to pretend that they don't just because they're not free.


Amazing how, if Windows had a lousy nVidia or ATI driver, you'd blame nVidia or ATI for not supporting your Windows properly.  Why the double-standard, A.L.?

After growing up in the Soviet Union, I believe that "blaming" someone is a very communist thing to do.  That's all the commies ever do - blame someone for their problems.  Unsurprisingly, most FOSS users are the same way.  In a free capitalist society, however, people don't "blame" - they utilize their freedom of choice.

If the two major graphics card manufacturers don't want to upset the two companies that have the lion's share of the desktop market (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=10&qpmr=24&qpdt=1&qpct=3&qpcal=1&qptimeframe=Q&qpsp=43) (92.52% for Microsoft and 5.27% for Apple - and an even higher share of hardcore gamers who buy their flagship products) in order to support a fringe hacker OS'es (i.e. Linux with 0.96% market share) then you're free to switch to another graphics card company, or invest several billion dollars to start your own.


Tell that to the majority of web servers in the world, including this one.

Yes, and of the last 50 Web servers I've worked on, maybe 15 were BSD and 25 were Linux.  This thread is about the desktop.


Again the deliberately blind double-standard, giving a pass to lazy developers who don't bother to compile their software for other OSs.

Those lazy no-good capitalist programmers who refuse to work for free!  Off to Siberia with the likes of them!  :roll:

Yes, it would have been nice if Microsoft were to offer all of their products for Linux.  And if all that Microsoft R&D money would have gone into Linux (as was the case with IBM and Oracle), it would have been better still.  The reality, however, is that Microsoft is not your slave, they are out to make a profit.  I'm not saying that the dick of the average Microsoft programmer is bigger than that of the average Linux programmer, I am simply analyzing the market reality from the desktop user's and desktop developer's point of view, and the verdict is simple - Microsoft kicks Linux's butt!


Demonstrating only that F/OSS developers don't have the same laziness, ignorant bias, or idiot platform like Windows that can't utilize 20-year-old open standards to efficiently display their warez remotely, how did you put it A.L., "via an X server"?

What are you talking about?  RDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Desktop_Protocol) rules!


Microsoft's most effective marketing tool remains simple ignorance.

Really?  I thought it was a vast capitalist conspiracy involving lizardmen and UFO's sending out mind control waves to force the vast majority of private sector businesses to install Microsoft products; write games, drivers, and other software with Microsoft API's; and so on...  :roll:


A.L. is all for the BSD, MIT and any other license that let Microsoft poach code. He's said so many times.

I am amazed how you can continue to repeat the same fallacious economically-retarded argument over and over again.  It's not just Microsoft that prefers non-copyleft open source licenses - everyone who isn't a brainwashed communist does!  (I personally prefer either the WTFPL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL) or my own HESSLA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacktivismo_Enhanced-Source_Software_License_Agreement)-like license that denies all rights to government employees and all other NAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aggression_Principle) violators.)  BSD actually hurts Microsoft the most, because it allows their competitors (i.e. Google, Apple) a fast-track for catching up!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on November 04, 2009, 06:40:49 PM
(i.e. Linux with 0.96% market share)

I've enjoyed seeing that number change as convenient to Microsoft marketing.

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then you're free to switch to another graphics card company, or invest several billion dollars to start your own.

I've been wondering if the "Open Graphics Card" projects will take off. Interesting ideas, right up there with OpenSPARC.

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This thread is about the desktop.

No, you keep saying that but the thread is about lots of different things. You didn't put it in the "no hijack" area, so you're stuck. Get used to the idea.

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Again the deliberately blind double-standard, giving a pass to lazy developers who don't bother to compile their software for other OSs.

Those lazy no-good capitalist programmers who refuse to work for free!

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

You may be all hung up on the fact that you pirate the pricy applications you enjoy, I'm not.

You complain that various applications you like don't run on Linux, I point out that that's because they are not made so by those who write them. So you are blaming "Linux" for the choices of the very software houses you profess to appreciate so highly.

The simple fact is that applications compiled to run on Linux can be closed, and sold, just like any other software. To run on Linux requires being "free as in beer" no more than running on Windows requires that code be closed and proprietary.

That you seem incapable of understanding this merely reinforces my opinion that you are no developer at all, that your much vaunted bonafides are a sham.

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Yes, it would have been nice if Microsoft were to offer all of their products for Linux.

And it would require nothing more than what they have already done to compile them to run on MacOS.

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The reality, however, is that Microsoft is not your slave, they are out to make a profit.

Microsoft could have sold their applications to run on Linux at an time, with no change to their licensing or pricing. Had they done so, not that they were listening to me when I espoused the same thing when they first released Office, their lock on the office application suite would have lasted much longer.

But no, they decided to focus on vertical integration, attempting to leverage the "lock-in" of their applications being available on Windows only, with a nod to the Mac once Gates had a stake in Apple Computers.

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I am simply analyzing the market reality from the desktop user's and desktop developer's point of view

No, from YOUR point of view. Which is fine, so long as you state it as your opinion rather than the correct way for everyone else. When you do the latter, it's annoying and easily disproven by the simple fact that people do use the "Linux Desktop" happily every day.

Just not you.

And yes, many people agree with you. Many people also agree with me. That's life.

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What are you talking about?

You listed lots of ways that F/OSS works on and with Windows.

Excellent reasons to use F/OSS, and a credit to the community of developers.

It also shows how backwards and insular Microsoft products are.


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Microsoft's most effective marketing tool remains simple ignorance.

Really?

Yes.

There is a large number of people who use computers, perhaps even the majority, that think a personal computer is, by definition, "Windows".

Simple ignorance, fostered by the magnificent skill that Microsoft has shown in negotiating sole-source contracts with OEMs.

I may personally resent such skill, the same way I would a skillful killer, but I still recognize that skill.

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I thought it was a vast capitalist conspiracy involving lizardmen and UFO's sending out mind control waves to force the vast majority of private sector businesses to install Microsoft products; write games, drivers, and other software with Microsoft API's; and so on...  :roll:

Inventing conspiracies merely overshadows the ones that are real.


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A.L. is all for the BSD, MIT and any other license that let Microsoft poach code. He's said so many times.

I am amazed how you can continue to repeat the same fallacious economically-retarded argument over and over again.

Good sir, it is you who has said you prefer the BSD and other non-contributory licenses to the GPL.

If you want to call that a "fallacious economically-retarded argument", that's fine, but don't deny you made it.

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It's not just Microsoft that prefers non-copyleft open source licenses - everyone who isn't a brainwashed communist does!

Since I'm not a brainwashed communist, your statement is a lie on its face.

That does seem to be where we most substantially disagree. To me, what you prefer is a personal choice. To you, if someone disagrees with you they're a "brainwashed communist".
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 05, 2009, 10:53:41 AM
I wonder how AL can refute the basic argument of the Cathedral and the Bazaar, oh wait he can't, it's the very basis of modern development: damn.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 06, 2009, 10:05:46 AM

Coders of The World, Unite!

All hair our great leader, Comrade Stallman (http://stallman.org/)!



(http://geekz.co.uk/shop/images/che-stallman-tshirt-list.png?1174745457) (http://pathstoknowledge.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/bsd-apache-mit-et-al-are-truly-free-and-open-souce-when-compared-with-the-stallmanistic-geekie-hippie-communistic-license-of-the-gpl-viral-infective-code/)

(http://pathstoknowledge.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/che-stallman-t-shirt-faux-freedom-2.png) (http://pathstoknowledge.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/bsd-apache-mit-et-al-are-truly-free-and-open-souce-when-compared-with-the-stallmanistic-geekie-hippie-communistic-license-of-the-gpl-viral-infective-code/)

(http://geekz.co.uk/shop/images/che-stallman-tshirt-show.jpg) (http://pathstoknowledge.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/bsd-apache-mit-et-al-are-truly-free-and-open-souce-when-compared-with-the-stallmanistic-geekie-hippie-communistic-license-of-the-gpl-viral-infective-code/)

(http://stallman.org/images/cartoon-economists.png) (http://stallman.org/)

(http://stallman.org/images/trade-treaty-comic.jpg) (http://stallman.org/)



:lol:

No.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on November 06, 2009, 10:12:47 AM
A.L., didn't your mother teach you not to lie?

Yes, Stallman is a socialist. Denouncing F/OSS because one person is a socialist is like condemning Free Talk Live because you post in their forums.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 06, 2009, 11:20:24 AM
I've enjoyed seeing that number change as convenient to Microsoft marketing.

Ah, you didn't know that underlined words can be clicked with the pointy thingy to get more information, like in this case the objective source of those usage statistics.  That explains... a lot...


I've been wondering if the "Open Graphics Card" projects will take off. Interesting ideas, right up there with OpenSPARC.

I'm looking forward to that as well.  In the meantime, high-end graphics and games on Linux just plain suck - this is one of the things this thread is about.


No, you keep saying that but the thread is about lots of different things.
You didn't put it in the "no hijack" area, so you're stuck.  Get used to the idea.

You keep failing to understand that I'm a much better Open Source advocate than you are.  I evaluate things objectively and recommend FOSS software where appropriate.  GNU fanatics like you push it blindly and mindlessly, even if the "free" solution is a decade behind the cutting edge proprietary alternatives!


You may be all hung up on the fact that you pirate the pricy applications you enjoy, I'm not.

Microsoft could still do well in absence of the "intellectual property" racket and other regulations, which has been used against it far more often.  I never pirate software in a production / business environment, where in a free society Microsoft would have made money through voluntary contracts via business partnerships, skill certifications, services, hardware, and so on.


You complain that various applications you like don't run on Linux, I point out that that's because they are not made so by those who write them.
So you are blaming "Linux" for the choices of the very software houses you profess to appreciate so highly.

Again with the "complain" / "blame"...  I don't do those things, I act in my self-interest, and I occasionally share my experiences with others - thus this thread.

And in most cases it's not that I like those applications myself, what matters is that my clients do.  I understand that Microsoft, Adobe, etc could have gone through the effort of making their software run great on Linux - but they chose not to, which is their right.


[...]  it's annoying and easily disproven by the simple fact that people do use the "Linux Desktop" happily every day.

And some people go through life with a ginger butt-plug in their rectum 23 hours a day.  The overwhelming majority of people don't use Linux, and the 1% that do typically use it on a dual-boot system, and often end up going back to Windows after they're through playing "leet hacker kids", or whatever else motivated them to try Linux in the first place.


You listed lots of ways that F/OSS works on and with Windows.
Excellent reasons to use F/OSS, and a credit to the community of developers.
It also shows how backwards and insular Microsoft products are.

Your brainwashing is incredibly dense.  I am a life-long FOSS developer / advocate, and I've made a solid case for why running FOSS software through a Windows desktop is the functionally superior alternative.  If you "100% GNU or die" nuts have a problem with this - fine, enjoy your ugly fragmented Linux desktop, where half the apps are written by government-subsidized European "grad students" in slow-ass interpreted scripting languages, and using most API's would force you to give away your source code to your clients for free.


I wonder how AL can refute the basic argument of the Cathedral and the Bazaar,
oh wait he can't, it's the very basis of modern development: damn.

Refute it?  I'm its #1 biggest fan!  People keep bringing up CatB entirely out of context, which means they clearly don't understand it and the more recent philosophical rift between ESR and RMS...  Why not RTFM beforehand so you don't come off as uninformed as you do?


Yes, Stallman is a socialist.

That's not the biggest problem.  I can look past one's personal politics if they don't push them on others as much (ex. Orwell, Solzhenitsyn, etc, etc, etc).  But GNU has done more damage to the software industry than anything else I can think of, empowering Microsoft's dominant position by disempowering its would-be competition!


Denouncing F/OSS because one person is a socialist is like condemning Free Talk Live because you post in their forums.

Um, I'm not "denouncing FOSS" - many people who've worked with me still think of me as "Mr FOSS"!

I'm simply denouncing GNU puritanism, the rose-colored glasses through which GNU nuts overlook all of their flaws, and other stupidity.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 06, 2009, 03:34:50 PM
From Slashdot -- Microsoft Research Shows Off New Projects On College Recruiting Tour (http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/11/06/1643227/Microsoft-Research-Shows-Off-New-Projects-On-College-Recruiting-Tour) --

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In a recent college recruiting tour, Microsoft's Craig Mundie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Mundie) was able to showcase some of the experiments coming out of their Research division.  Among some of the interesting projects were another pass at the Minority Report interface (http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/06/microsoft-messes-with-natural-user-interface-featuring-eye-tr/), eye-tracking, intelligent data sorting, a global carbon-climate model, and several other software and hardware experiments.  A video and supporting slideshow (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/collegetour/default.aspx) are also available via Microsoft's press site.

"Mundie also will discuss the kinds of computers students will soon be using - machines that will respond to gestures through new natural user interfaces; deploy the power of new microprocessors; migrate data to the cloud; and use live data to drive new simulations and visualizations.  He'll center on an environmental theme to show what it might be like to be a research scientist working on zero carbon energy in the future using new interactions with data and computers to increase insight."
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on November 06, 2009, 06:08:58 PM
That explains... a lot...

"Objective"? How can a statistic be objective that cannot count the 7 Linux systems I own? Or anyone else, who didn't buy it in a store?

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You keep failing to understand that I'm a much better Open Source advocate than you are.

Hahaha, lying again. Self-agrandizing while insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

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I evaluate things objectively and recommend FOSS software where appropriate.

As do I. I merely find it to be far more appropriate than you do.

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Microsoft could still do well in absence of the "intellectual property" racket and other regulations

A circumstance I hope occurs soon. Preferably tomorrow.

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I never pirate software in a production / business environment

So you know you're a hypocrite. Good.

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Again with the "complain" / "blame"...  I don't do those things

You obviously don't read your own postings. They are nothing but blame and complaining.

Just look at the subject line. Blame blame blame.

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And some people go through life with a ginger butt-plug in their rectum 23 hours a day.

Here's the "condemn" thing again, the very thing you said you didn't do.

You treat anyone who disagrees with you as if they were degenerate perverts. I make a simple statement of preference, you turn it into butt-plugs.

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or whatever else motivated them to try Linux in the first place.

Such as quality code, stability and compatibility through open, published standards?

That's why I use it. Like ESR, ideology is a nice side-effect, quality comes first.

Sounds good to me.

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Your brainwashing is incredibly dense.  I am a life-long FOSS developer / advocate, and I've made a solid case for why running FOSS software through a Windows desktop is the functionally superior alternative.

For YOU. Not for everyone. The fact that you insult anyone who disagrees with you is a sad testimony to your own lacks.

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But GNU has done more damage to the software industry than anything else I can think of, empowering Microsoft's dominant position by disempowering its would-be competition!

I find that interesting. How is keeping code open somehow "disempowering"?

That Microsoft cannot cherry-pick GPL'd code like they do BSD cannot be "disempowering" to anyone other than Microsoft.

Even MS can use all the GPL'd code they want to, in any way they want to. They merely have to allow everyone else the same freedom they have with that code.

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Um, I'm not "denouncing FOSS" - many people who've worked with me still think of me as "Mr FOSS"!

Thank Cromm I don't work with you.

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I'm simply denouncing GNU puritanism

That's interesting, because what I've read you do, over and over, is denounce anything Linux. The "F/OSS is great but only when running on Windows" is a perfect example.

Which is why, since you're following the Microsoft Astroturf playbook so closely, I make the conclusion that you're working from it.

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...which GNU nuts overlook all of their flaws, and other stupidity.

The stupidity, A.L., is your constant insulting of anyone who merely disagrees with you.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Lukey on November 07, 2009, 12:25:17 AM
Thank you for sticking up for Linux guys, I am amazed more people don't use it more, most people only use the internet on there PC anyway, and microsoft studio is not proper programing, mostly for collage kids, office can run under linux by using wine, but how many people go out and buy it anyway.  yes games run better on windows due to them only being made for windows, but I would rather play games on my PS3 and use my PC for all my other needs, the desktop works great on my linux mint PC and has never slowed or broken down. windows will always break they want it to its there business to make sure it will. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 07, 2009, 07:07:10 AM
[...]  Or anyone else, who didn't buy it in a store?

Yes, evil capitalists are holding a gun to everyone's head and forcing them to buy Windows, and then to change their browser user-agent string to hide the fact that they switch to Linux.  :roll:


You obviously don't read your own postings. They are nothing but blame and complaining.

No, before you hijacked this thread with your GNU-worshiping hysteria it was mostly praise for how Microsoft is finally starting to get things right, and how after many years of shunning Microsoft like a plague I'm thus returning to it.  Saying that something "sucks" relatively to something else is, like I said, a case of sharing my opinions and experiences with others.


I make a simple statement of preference, you turn it into butt-plugs.

Hey, people have a right to live with a plug up their butt.  Or worse, with Linux on their desktop.  But I don't recommend it.


Such as quality code, stability  [...]

For the millionth time - you're confusing server-side Linux for desktop Linux!  Two totally different experiences!


The fact that you insult anyone who disagrees with you is a sad testimony to your own lacks.

Yeah, but it's more fun this way.   8)


I find that interesting.  How is keeping code open somehow "disempowering"?

What GPL is advocating is the software equivalent of forced redistribution of wealth.  What I'm advocating is the free market.


That Microsoft cannot cherry-pick GPL'd code like they do BSD cannot be "disempowering" to anyone other than Microsoft.

Show me a clause in any non-copyleft license that gives Microsoft exclusive privileges at the expense of Google, Apple, and Alex Libman?  It is the latter who benefit from non-copyleft open source software the most!  With GPL, static linking is entirely out of the question, and dynamic linking is iffy at best - and you never know if/when GPL v4 or v5 will make things even more difficult...


Even MS can use all the GPL'd code they want to, in any way they want to.
They merely have to allow everyone else the same freedom they have with that code.

Microsoft spends billions on R&D.  It might include a few small periphery components that are GPL'ed for PR purposes (as if that'd help), but I'm sure they could have rewritten it and done better.


That's interesting, because what I've read you do, over and over, is denounce anything Linux.

That's not true, I use Linux all the time.  I also use a lot of other GPL software, even though I hate the license - if/when it's the best.  I used to be a BSD + PostgreSQL guru, but I must admit that Linux and MySQL have recently surpassed them.  I still have many projects that I compile with GCC and the rest of the GNU toolchain, even on OpenBSD or Windows!  Thankfully my main bread and butter -- Apache and most scripting languages -- are not GPL.


The "F/OSS is great but only when running on Windows" is a perfect example.

That's not what I said.  I actually prefer UNIX servers to Microsoft ones.  For the millionth time - this thread is about the desktop!
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on November 07, 2009, 09:01:23 AM
Yes, evil capitalists are holding a gun to everyone's head...

Typical. You post misleading statistics, I point out how they are not "objective" by any non Microsoft Marketing Department meaning of the word, and you return with insults and vitriol.

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No, before you hijacked this thread

I didn't hijack the thread. You brought up the subject of Linux, I replied on that subject.

I merely disagree with your "sucks", and your absolute statements about the unsuitability of Linux for other people.

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For the millionth time - you're confusing server-side Linux for desktop Linux!  Two totally different experiences!

No, A.L. I am not. They are not. I have had exactly the same experience with both desktop and server installs of Linux. In fact, since they are exactly the same code merely differing in whether the keyboard and screen are directly attached, I'm not surprised at all that the stability and frugality of one is found on the other.

That YOU have such problems is YOUR problem. Not everyones, regardless of your protestations.

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What GPL is advocating is the software equivalent of forced redistribution of wealth.  What I'm advocating is the free market.

What you cannot seem to understand is that there is no "force". If you don't like the GPL, then don't use code licensed under the GPL. Simple. Just like not using a private toll road if you don't want to pay the toll, or not using Microsoft products if you don't like the EULA.

Obviously too simple for you to grasp.

The free market is exactly that: Free. If you don't like something, then don't use it. At the same time, no one can force you to use anything you don't like.

And since you ignore the Microsoft EULA when you find it convenient to do so, why such an over-reaction to one particular type of software license?

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Show me a clause in any non-copyleft license that gives Microsoft exclusive privileges at the expense of Google, Apple, and Alex Libman?

How about IBM, Google, Novell and RedHat making plenty of money using GPL code?

Since the existence of those refutes your premise that the GPL somehow "retards" software development, the rest of your ignorant assertions fall flat.

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With GPL, static linking is entirely out of the question, and dynamic linking is iffy at best

So don't use it.

Quote
and you never know if/when GPL v4 or v5 will make things even more difficult...

Then don't use them.

The Linux kernel remains GPLv2, for example, long after the GPLv3 came out.

Other people seem to comprehend that no one is forcing anyone else to use the licenses, why can't you?

Quote
Microsoft spends billions on R&D.

And they still can't make an OS that doesn't require rebooting to make a change to 3rd party applications.

Quote
That's not true, I use Linux all the time.

Sorry, A.L., you're not staying with the thread subject.

The subject is about how awful Linux is. See, it says it right there. "Linux Sucks."

Why can't you stay on subject?

Quote
The "F/OSS is great but only when running on Windows" is a perfect example.

That's not what I said.

It is exactly what you have written, over and over, time and again.

Quote
I actually prefer UNIX servers to Microsoft ones.  For the millionth time - this thread is about the desktop!

So why do you keep changing the subject? I've been talking about the Linux desktop, you keep bringing up servers.

You have stated, repeatedly and virulently, that F/OSS sucks, but it's just fine when running on Windows. Your hair-splitting about you really only meaning the desktop is merely quoting directly from the Microsoft astroturfer's handbook.

Or, if not quoting, then your "personal experience" is somehow perfectly in line with what the Microsoft marketing department has been pushing.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BonerJoe on November 07, 2009, 10:46:15 AM
LOL, arguing on the internet.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Lukey on November 07, 2009, 02:28:09 PM
OK please state WHY exactly the Linux desktop sucks, which Linux desktop, as Linux users have choice of many different types as you should know. I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 07, 2009, 02:41:49 PM
1. Shitty hardware support (mostly due to vendors being cunts, but wth...).
2. Constant grandstanding of one project over another (ex. KDE v Gnome or the numerous 'frameworks' for sound and video).
3. RMS and other antisocial dumbasses being allowed to speak (Not much of a problem as just like with Balmer you just don't bother listening to their speeches).
4. Alex Libman.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 07, 2009, 08:43:03 PM
You post misleading statistics, I point out how they are not "objective" by any non Microsoft Marketing Department meaning of the word, and you return with insults and vitriol.

Why, does your cult leader tell you that the whole world looks to North Korea err, I mean to Linux desktop as their last best hope?  Does Linux Pravda report 101% desktop market share?  :lol:


I merely disagree with your "sucks", and your absolute statements about the unsuitability of Linux for other people.

How about this - we get into a GUI app programming contest.  Round 1 would use the GNU toolchain (i.e. gcc) with GTK+, round 2 would Visual C++ 2010 with MFC, round 3 would use Java with Swing, and round 4 would use Visual C# 2010 / .NET 4.  If you prove yourself to be a better all-around desktop programmer, your opinion on this thread's subject will matter more than mine.  ;)


No, A.L. I am not. They are not. I have had exactly the same experience with both desktop and server installs of Linux. In fact, since they are exactly the same code merely differing in whether the keyboard and screen are directly attached, I'm not surprised at all that the stability and frugality of one is found on the other.

The server-related Linux components received billions of dollars in funding from governments and companies trying to hurt Microsoft (including "military-industrial complex" cocksuckers like IBM and Oracle), as well as reasonable people who use LAMP technology stack, as do I.  The desktop components received considerably less, though the government of Finnokialand is rushing in to help.

The #1 priority of a good desktop experience is perfect hardware support, and, though Linux has made a lot of progress it's still nowhere close to being ready.  Furthermore, Linux font rendering and video codec quality suck for purely software / userland reasons as well.

The #2 priority of a good desktop experience is consistency: all your core apps should share libraries, automation API's, GUI widgets, dialogs, etc.  In Windows, if you know how to automate Microsoft Word then you've passed 75% of the learning curve for doing pretty much anything else.  In Ubuntu you have half your apps using C / GTK+, but your IDE probably uses Java (Swing or SWT), your browser or podcatcher probably also uses XUL, your torrent client and probably some other apps use Qt, your music manager or desktop search tool might use Mono, some apps are written in perl or python, and don't even get me started on OO.o...  All those different API's introduce unnecessary complexity, and all those different VM's fail to share resources and are all MUCH slower than Microsoft's CLR.

And then you have the quality of the available apps.  As I already admitted, the FOSS desktop has one major success story - Firefox, which I use myself; but, as noted above - it runs better & faster on Windows!  I will also admit that there are a handful of good Linux desktop components, most notably Pidgin, and the only other things that don't suck are little applets like gnome-terminal / konsole.  All those run great on Windows as well.  That aside, all major Linux desktop components are functionally inferior to their proprietary alternatives!
OpenOffice.org offers most of the features of Office 97, but is 5x slower and has far fewer third party solutions, while newer versions of MS Office apps blow it away!  The Adobe flash plug-in has a tendency to crash (I don't care whole fault it is), while it never does on Windows.  You find yourself jumping back in forth between a dozen IDE's in hope of finding one that doesn't suck, but you never do.  Gimp - ya gotta be kidding me!  Etc, etc, etc.


What you cannot seem to understand is that there is no "force".
If you don't like the GPL, then don't use code licensed under the GPL.  Simple.

Am I also free not to pay taxes?  An invaluable amount of work that has gone into making GPL software usable was funded by governments and public universities, especially in Europe but in US / Canada as well.  Of course if Stallman has his way the amount of government spending on "free software" would be multiplied by 100, but he may have to wait until Obama's second term to get that.

What would happen if Microsoft behaved like Linux, like making it as easy to "ms-get" software from public university FTP servers?  EU won't even let them bundle a Web browser with their OS!


And since you ignore the Microsoft EULA when you find it convenient to do so, why such an over-reaction to one particular type of software license?

No client has ever asked me if my copy of Windows, Visual Studio, or any other MS / Adobe / Borland / etc software was legitimately licensed (and for much of the time most of them were).  But if some libraries I'm linking are GPL'ed (i.e. strong viral copyleft), then we can have a serious legal problem...


How about IBM, Google, Novell and RedHat making plenty of money using GPL code?

Novell is making money!  Wow!  Really!  Man, I knew I should have renewed my certs...  :lol:

And, OK, RedHat's revenues surpassed $500 million earlier this year.  That's less than Bill Gates spends on pocket protectors, but nonetheless impressive.  Now...  What fraction of their income comes from desktop-related products and services? 

Companies like IBM license their own products as GPL instead of BSD for their own selfish self-interest.  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)  They want to deploy their solutions on something that doesn't empower their competitor -- Microsoft -- while preventing other businesses from profiting from their code, like Apple has profited from BSD.  Their actual revenue comes from other products, which are not only closed-source but often involve NDA's as well!


And they still can't make an OS that doesn't require rebooting to make a change to 3rd party applications.

Um, when was the last time you've used Windows?  The need for reboots has decreased drastically.  Some apps recommend reboot as a precaution, but I never had any problems ignoring them.  And Windows 7 reboots the whole system faster than Ubuntu reloads X + Gnome / KDE, which get updated quite often.  And when you need to update / recompile the kernel - now that's a reboot you can't possibly avoid!


The subject is about how awful Linux is. See, it says it right there. "Linux Sucks."

Um, do you think Java is an operating system kernel?!  The first page of this thread make it very clear that this thread is about the GUI desktop experience, particularly from a developer's point of view.


LOL, arguing on the internet.

I'm pretty devoted to server-side Linux development, and I'll switch to Linux on the desktop once it catches up.  (Of course I've been saying "once KDE 4 comes out" years ago...)  If anyone ever calls me a Linux fanatic, I'll be able to point to this thread as proof to the contrary.  I calls `em as I sees `em - even if I have to bounce my arguments against someone as obtuse as anti-Microsoft Bob here.   :twisted:


1. Shitty hardware support  [...]

That in of itself is reason enough.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on November 07, 2009, 10:03:42 PM
Java fucking blows, and Mozilla is unstable.  And fuck rebooting.

</important speak>
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 07, 2009, 10:11:02 PM
Yet Linux makes the servers go round, Alex, you can't deny that. The reason is quite simple: Unix has too many limitations that the Linux kernal shares none. Linux has little to none of the cruft to deal with too. So I can't say I support your bitching and whining anymore than I can support the idiocy of the "Year of the Desktop for Linux" crap.

None the less, the more you keep trying to defend Microsoft, whose over all market share has shrank under Balmer's stewardship (goes to show you need a nerd to run a nerd company) compare that to the market share of Redhat who keeps growing year after year. Sure Redhat is a small company in terms of interval scale, but it's real zero scale (of where they started and where they are now) that counts in terms of their market value. I can tell you the only thing keeping Microsoft alive at this point is name recognition and cultural entrenchment (particularly in the office desktop world). Everywhere else, even in gaming, they're the butt of everyone's joke. Zune is laughed at. Xbox is always called POS for its chronic RROD. And Windows, well you get that one in terms of the lack of hardware support (even in Windows 7).

So I'm sorry, Alex, Microsoft is not the pinnacle of software success. And the more you try to blame its shortcomings on others like Linux or some neckbeard reject (RMS) the more you look like an asshole trying to be a contrarian troll (which is what I think you're after, but I can't be sure).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Lukey on November 08, 2009, 12:05:32 AM
OK please state WHY exactly the Linux desktop sucks, which Linux desktop, as Linux users have choice of many different types as you should know. I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.

Still no answer? what is it, ok a few graphics cards and some wifi cards thats all. that has nothing to do with the desktop and anyway what drivers are built into windows? how many disks do you need to install it, how long does that take, oh and make sure you give them all your details to while your at it so you can be tracked no mater what network you connect to. : )
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 08, 2009, 09:19:40 AM

I

AM

NOT

A

CON

TRA

RI

AN

!!!


YES

YOU

ARE

YOU

FATTY

MCFAT

FAT

...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on November 08, 2009, 10:11:15 AM
If you prove yourself to be a better all-around desktop programmer, your opinion on this thread's subject will matter more than mine.

This thread, as you are so fond of telling other people, isn't about programming. It's about the desktop.

For you, it doesn't work. For me it does.

Why is that so threatening to you?

Quote
The #1 priority of a good desktop experience is perfect hardware support, and, though Linux has made a lot of progress it's still nowhere close to being ready.

Again the double standard. Manufacturers who write drivers for Windows, but not Linux, is somehow in your bizzaro world a failure of "Linux" and not the manufacturers.

Yet what do you say when hardware isn't supported in Windows?

Silence. No comment.

Quote
The #2 priority of a good desktop experience is consistency

So let me guess here, just speculating, that since my daughter's computer games don't work on Win7, or Vista, or XP, but did on Win2K, you're going to tell me that's a Linux failure.

Quote
What you cannot seem to understand is that there is no "force".
If you don't like the GPL, then don't use code licensed under the GPL.  Simple.

Am I also free not to pay taxes?

Your grasp of what the phrase "free market" means seems just about as clear as your grasp of what "preference" means.

Both completely elude you.

Quote
What would happen if Microsoft behaved like Linux, like making it as easy to "ms-get" software from public university FTP servers?

I don't know.

What would happen if Microsoft published their APIs, used commodity protocols and completely portable, published and standardized file formats?

Maybe, of all the things Microsoft might be, "loathed" would finally not be on the list.

Quote
EU won't even let them bundle a Web browser with their OS!

You need to include why this is a "Linux" failure.

Personally, I think it's because Microsoft has been so arrogant, ignorant and self-righteous for long that they have finally pissed off enough people to cause "blow-back".

Well deserved blow-back.

Quote
No client has ever asked me if my copy of Windows, Visual Studio, or any other MS / Adobe / Borland / etc software was legitimately licensed (and for much of the time most of them were).

So you deliberately open your CLIENTS to legal action, by knowingly violating software licenses?

This is the kind of asshole act that makes independent consulting so very hard.

Quote
But if some libraries I'm linking are GPL'ed (i.e. strong viral copyleft), then we can have a serious legal problem...

Your serious legal problem is that you pick and choose what license applies. Your pathetic attachment to one license, the GPL, while ignoring all the rest, only ruins what little credibility your self-proclaimed expertise might have engendered.

Quote
And they still can't make an OS that doesn't require rebooting to make a change to 3rd party applications.

Um, when was the last time you've used Windows?  The need for reboots has decreased drastically.

So these "expert" programmers, and billions of dollars in R&D by your own assertion, over the course of 15 years, has yielded only "The need for reboots has decreased drastically."

Talk about damning with faint praise.

Are you telling me this is some kind of PROMOTION of Microsoft products?

Quote
And when you need to update / recompile the kernel - now that's a reboot you can't possibly avoid!

That's why I specifically said "3rd party software", not the kernel itself.

Quote
1. Shitty hardware support  [...]

That in of itself is reason enough.

That's certainly one of the reasons I don't use Windows. One of the interesting aspects of not buying hardware with Windows pre-installed is to see the very real problems with hardware support that Windows has.

And remember, A.L., you can't go running to tell me that any Windows hardware problems is because of a lack of manufacturer's drivers, since you've already ruled that out by blaming that problem on "Linux".
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 08, 2009, 10:59:34 AM
[...]  So I can't say I support your bitching and whining

I'm not "bitching an whining", I am saying that the "bitching and whining" of the GNU'tards sucks ass.


[...]  anymore than I can support the idiocy of the "Year of the Desktop for Linux" crap.

Good for you.


None the less, the more you keep trying to defend Microsoft, whose over all market share has shrank under Balmer's stewardship (goes to show you need a nerd to run a nerd company) compare that to the market share of Redhat who keeps growing year after year.

When you're starting your growth from zero, appeal to the great unwashed masses of the third world, proclaim yourself ideologically superior, and give something away for free - of course you'll experience market share growth, to a point.  This is like the sort of propaganda you hear in Angola or Venezuela - "Uncle Sam's share of world GDP is shrinking!  Ours is growing!  Yaay socialism!"  :lol:

Just like the faster-growing Soviet economy never surpassed the United States, and just like China will never surpass the U.S. on per-capita basis, it is fully conceivable that Linux will never surpass Microsoft on the desktop in terms of quality.  Microsoft would probably want to start charging people in subscriptions (i.e. $5 - $20 per user per month) - they might have already been doing that if it wasn't for all the antitrust bullshit.  People who care about quality would always be willing to pay that - heck, people are willing to pay $300 more per month to drive a decent car rather than a junker, and most people spend a lot more time in front of their computer than they do in their car!  And Microsoft will always be able to reinvest that into hiring the best programmers (as opposed to Scandinavian 20-something welfare suckers who never had a real job), and keep those programmers organized with a central design philosophy (ex. one great VM instead of 20 crap ones).  Microsoft would also be able to use that R&D capital to further branch out into hardware, services, and so on.  Capitalism FTW!


[...]  Zune is laughed at.

Only by Appletards who think Apple hangs with Al Gore and Barack Obama and fights global warming 'n stuff - and it's those people who buy high-end MP3 players.  I bought a dumb little MP3 player ages ago - why would I need anything more?  I use Zune software to download podcasts on my Windows boxes (replacing my infamous pod-get script from before), and when I finally buy a new MP3 player (frugal as I am, it'll probably be after the old one disintegrates into sub-atomic dust) it will probably be a Zune.

And in spite of being an untrendy late-comer, Zune's market share percentage is close to beating that of Mac's share on the desktop, and is about 4-5 times higher than that of Linux.   8)


[...]  Xbox is always called POS for its chronic RROD  [...]

Ah Xbox, the great American success story.  They've said that cars and video game consoles cannot be manufactured without government support anymore, because Japan's "ministry of industry" has been able to focus their whole $5 trillion dollar economy on exporting those things to the rest of the world.  In comes Microsoft, and positions itself directly in the path of the Japanese video game dynasties!  Will Xbox sink, like USS Arizona in Pearl Harbor, and like all other attempts to revive the American console industry?  No, it swims!  Though the much cheaper Nintendo Wii won the latest round in a down economy, Xbox 360 still managed to beat PS3!


Still no answer?

This thread lists many reasons, and I've just summarized them yet again in post on Nov 7th, 8:43 PM EST.


how many disks do you need to install it

Disks?  Wow, talk about being stuck in the 20th century...  Pro's copy OS'es from partition images downloaded from the network, which can be your own backups or, in case of Windows / MacOS X, pirated images installed / cracked / configured by trusted hacker groups in many different flavors.  Even without that, as noted above, you can install boxed ("vanilla") Windows 7 from another Windows OS without a physical disk or USB.  On XP I still had to use something called a "driver pack", but for Windows 7 it installed virtually all of the drivers I needed automatically.
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on November 08, 2009, 11:08:49 AM
OK please state WHY exactly the Linux desktop sucks, which Linux desktop, as Linux users have choice of many different types as you should know.

While the personal reasons to prefer one over the other are legion, and irrefutable since they're personal, the reasons that A.L. gives are bullshit.

1) Some hardware makers don't write good drivers for Linux.
2) Some software publishers don't write software for Linux.
3) Microsoft doesn't write software for Linux.

That pretty much sums it up.

Oh, wait, a new one that came up in the last couple of days: GNOME and KDE are in competition with each other, and he just hates that.

He tries to make "technical" arguments about why "desktop" Linux use is absurd, stupid and self-destructive, but "server" Linux is just fine, but his arguments read like they were written by the Microsoft Marketing Department. Oh, and "server" Linux isn't the subject so he won't do anything but bring it up over an over.

Quote
I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.

I think you encapsulate his argument perfectly.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 08, 2009, 11:57:41 AM
This thread, as you are so fond of telling other people, isn't about programming.  It's about the desktop.

Anyone who isn't functionally illiterate in the English language and has minimal computer literacy would be able to read the beginnings of this thread and understand what it is about.  What is your major malfunction exactly, do you think "Java" is a full-stack desktop environment?  Do you think desktop applications grow just by themselves without someone having to program / customize them?  Clearly you can't talk about a desktop experience without looking at how it's designed!


For you, it doesn't work.  For me it does.

Because you're a delusional commie puritan who likes having a ginger butt-plug in his rectum.   :lol:


Why is that so threatening to you?

Because the Astroturf Handbook, errrr, I mean because the ghost of Ayn Rand wants me to be pissed off at crappy commie desktop design.   :lol:


Again the double standard. Manufacturers who write drivers for Windows, but not Linux, is somehow in your bizzaro world a failure of "Linux" and not the manufacturers.

Manufacturers are not your slaves, they have no obligation to write drivers for your viral commie OS that has 1% of the desktop market share.


Yet what do you say when hardware isn't supported in Windows?

Consumer desktop hardware that isn't supported by Windows?   :shock:

Is it from the same people who engineer cars that don't drive on asphalt?   :?


So let me guess here, just speculating, that since my daughter's computer games don't work on Win7, or Vista, or XP, but did on Win2K, you're going to tell me that's a Linux failure.

Which games are those?  That's a DosBox / VMware failure most likely...

And I'm sure this problem is far, far easier to solve than the problems you have to solve with Linux to get it working right: good graphics card performance, ALSA, cellular card, USB peripherals, dependency hell, figuring out how to make crappy-by-default font rendering to stop hurting your eyes, figuring out how to open an IE-only Web app (very common on corporate networks) or a PowerPoint presentation your boss just e-mailed you, etc, etc, etc.


Your grasp of what the phrase "free market" means seems just about as clear as your grasp of what "preference" means.

You're free to run Linux on your desktop, or, heck, OS/2 Warp.  And I'm free to make fun of you.

And yet my point about "free software" being supported by tax-victim dollars remains unanswered.  In absence of all those European welfare universities and other government force, the "open source desktop" would mean running Emacs on GNU/Hurd.  :lol:


What would happen if Microsoft published their APIs, used commodity protocols and completely portable, published and standardized file formats?  Maybe, of all the things Microsoft might be, "loathed" would finally not be on the list.

Yeah yeah, everyone must give away all their assets and do everything for free.  Yaay altruism.  :roll:


Well deserved blow-back.

You sound just like a Stalin apologist...


So you deliberately open your CLIENTS to legal action, by knowingly violating software licenses?

They can't be sued for me developing their code on pirated products.

They can be sued, however, if I used some GPL'ed components.


Your serious legal problem is that you pick and choose what license applies. Your pathetic attachment to one license, the GPL, while ignoring all the rest, only ruins what little credibility your self-proclaimed expertise might have engendered.

The LGPL license isn't much better, and together the two GNU licenses account for a large fraction of the so-called "free software" out there.  And efforts like gpl-violations.org (http://gpl-violations.org/) are just the tip of the iceberg - GNU'tards are becoming a powerful political lobbying force with the goal of getting the government involved in the software industry as much as possible: "net neutrality", government grants for software development, government "regulation" of all standards and API's, etc, etc, etc.


So these "expert" programmers, and billions of dollars in R&D by your own assertion, over the course of 15 years, has yielded only "The need for reboots has decreased drastically."  Talk about damning with faint praise.

If you can run a fully-loaded 2010 Microsoft desktop side-by-site with Ubuntu and claim that Ubuntu is better - you need medical attention fast.


That's certainly one of the reasons I don't use Windows. One of the interesting aspects of not buying hardware with Windows pre-installed is to see the very real problems with hardware support that Windows has.

You're delusional.  Windows is the undisputed champion of the x86(x64) desktop - at it runs very well on Apple hardware as well.  If a piece of consumer PC hardware doesn't run on Windows, then it was probably produced in East Germany before the wall fell!


GNOME and KDE are in competition with each other, and he just hates that.

Competition is good, but both fail to stand on their own and you must patch together a Frankenstein desktop from parts of both, as well as borrowing completely different design philosophies from apps that use XUL, Java, Mono, UNO, wxWidgets, Tk, curses, etc, etc, etc.  It's like buying a car that's half Yugo and half Hummer glued together, with bicycle wheels, a coal-burning engine, and a saddle...


I think I'm getting the picture and tell me if I am wrong you have a graphics card that's incompatible? so you gave up.  If I am incorrect please state exactly what benefits your getting.
I think you encapsulate his argument perfectly.

Seems like all my other arguments flew went light-years above your heads...

I guess it's like Howard Roark trying to explain his design principles to the architect in charge of Eastern-European commieblocks (which were anything but cost-effective in the long run)...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Lukey on November 08, 2009, 02:34:13 PM
What's all this stuff about commie ? and how in the world can you customize microsoft stuff. and are you still going to be singing there praise when come to get you! you still have not specified what magic super powers windows users poses over Linux users, teleportation, anti grav, telepathic interactions, I know its the grass hill in the background it makes you feel all fuzzy and safe inside.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 08, 2009, 03:18:50 PM
Your "how in the world can you customize Microsoft stuff" comment reveals much ignorance of Windows programming.

And there's no "magic" involved.  Just comparing a precision-engineered BMW 7-series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_7_Series_%28F01%29) (Windows 7 Ultimate) to what I described above - "a car that's half Yugo and half Hummer glued together, with bicycle wheels, a coal-burning engine, and a saddle".  :lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on November 08, 2009, 03:38:03 PM
I'm not "bitching an whining", I am saying that the "bitching and whining" of the GNU'tards sucks ass.

Yes, you are. Constantly.
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on November 08, 2009, 03:42:35 PM
What's all this stuff about commie ?

Seriously, what other argument does A.L. have?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 08, 2009, 04:07:21 PM
Hey anti-Microsoft Bob - why are you still in this thread?  You've exhausted your capacity for original counter-arguments 10 pages ago!

Anyway, more good news on Microsoft...  AV-Comparatives.org (http://av-comparatives.org/) recently reviewed sixteen different anti-virus solutions (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/11/08/0233248/Test-of-16-Anti-Virus-Products-Says-None-Rates-Very-Good) [2] (http://www.net-security.org/malware_news.php?id=1137) [PDF] (http://www.av-comparatives.org/images/stories/test/removal/avc_removal_2009.pdf), and Microsoft's fast and free Security Essentials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Security_Essentials) (MSE) component tied with Symantec and eScan for 1st place!
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on November 08, 2009, 04:15:00 PM
Hey anti-Microsoft Bob - why are you still in this thread?

Providing a rational balance to your irrational hatred.

Quote
You've exhausted your capacity for substantive counter-arguments 10 pages ago.

Don't blame me if you keep making the same mistakes.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Lukey on November 09, 2009, 12:15:25 AM
Hey anti-Microsoft Bob - why are you still in this thread?  You've exhausted your capacity for original counter-arguments 10 pages ago!

Anyway, more good news on Microsoft...  AV-Comparatives.org (http://av-comparatives.org/) recently reviewed sixteen different anti-virus solutions (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/11/08/0233248/Test-of-16-Anti-Virus-Products-Says-None-Rates-Very-Good) [2] (http://www.net-security.org/malware_news.php?id=1137) [PDF] (http://www.av-comparatives.org/images/stories/test/removal/avc_removal_2009.pdf), and Microsoft's fast and free Security Essentials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Security_Essentials) (MSE) component tied with Symantec and eScan for 1st place!


Yes that's good they are STARTING to make it a bit more secure, I don't like seeing most computers running windows infected, and running slow, good people who just want to get on line will have to go and shell out a few hundred bucks for the new version every 2 or 3 years. windows is a amazing product where else can you buy a product that's so broken and not be able to get a refund.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 09, 2009, 07:30:23 AM
[...]  where else can you buy a product that's so broken and not be able to get a refund.

Anyone in the peanut gallery can say that about any product out there.

Objective facts point to Windows as one of the LEAST broken software products ever created!

Being about 90 times more popular on the desktop than Linux, and being disproportionally more attractive to noobs, and not being able to distribute all software through trusted repositories for legal reasons, and running on more homogeneous types of CPU's, and attracting the wrath of communist hackers for political reasons, Windows gets about 10,000 times more attention from virus / trojan / malware / adware writers than Linux!  In spite of having to walk a legal tightrope for how many new features it can include without being sued, as well as the need to maintain usability and noob-friendliness, Microsoft has done a pretty good job making their OS'es secure.

The overwhelmingly dominant reason why people beat up on Microsoft is their hatred of capitalism, and some people who should know better mindlessly imitate that popular behavior because they think it makes them look "cool" (i.e. more independent and technologically sophisticated).  Reality is often in reverse!  All of the best programmers I know still use Windows in some capacity, while many wannabe's I know install Linux and get an inferior desktop experience, but pretend to like it because they think no one notices that the king is naked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes) but them!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 09, 2009, 11:45:13 AM
Um, no Windows isn't the least broken OSes on the planet. In fact, no OS is least broken, they're broken in different ways. Windows is broken on vital security points, which is why Windows Server series has never beaten the *nixes on the server market, and probably never will. Linux is broken from a consumer desktop perspective because there's too many cooks in the kitchen deciding what desktop concepts stay, go, and get modified. It's hard to unlearn Gnome when you're forced to play with KDE4 at work and vice versa. Windows is broken from a hardware perspective because many basic integrated motherboard types are often not supported, and even if they're supported the additional features (such as what you get with AC97) have to be setup with vendor drivers to be accessible. Linux from a software perspective is broken in key points of standards between frameworks, whether it's boost for C++ or GObject, some folks never fucking get the agreements between these right (especially if we're talking about bindings between languages). And so on.

At the end of the day, it's not a matter of FOSS folks being against capitalism as many are in the business of support and development of their products. It's about Microsoft wanting to tell what other firms should do and how to do it. This is more the case under Ballmer than it was under Gates as at least Gates knew better than to dick with others agendas (when he had his own to attend). It's not a matter of Microsoft's success that ever irks me it's the ideologues that speak for it that get me riled up, and oddly much in the same fashion as I've been riled up by RMS and other Free Software Foundation dillweeds (and for the same reasons). Let us developers do our thing: develop software. I don't care who's 'king' of the desktop so long as I have the freedom to choose what platform, what framework, and what customer(s) to service. Company of origin be damned!
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on November 09, 2009, 12:05:01 PM
Windows Server series has never beaten the *nixes on the server market, and probably never will.
I guess it depends what you are counting...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/28/idc_q12009_server_nums/
Quote
In terms of operating system breakdown, IDC reckons that the Windows platform held its lead, with $3.7bn in sales, down 28.9 per cent. Unix server sales accounted for $3.3bn in Q1 2009, falling only 17.5 per cent, and Linux server sales hitting $1.4bn, dropping 24.8 per cent.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 09, 2009, 12:22:52 PM
In terms of adoption, Linux servers are more or less replacing legacy Unix deployments, so until I see a trend away from Unix derived systems (that include BSD brews) I doubt Microsoft will ever depend on Windows Server as their meat and potatoes revenue.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on November 09, 2009, 12:38:17 PM
In terms of adoption, Linux servers are more or less replacing legacy Unix deployments, so until I see a trend away from Unix derived systems (that include BSD brews) I doubt Microsoft will ever depend on Windows Server as their meat and potatoes revenue.
No, but they are still obviously making money with it.  My dad uses it in his office with great success.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 09, 2009, 12:40:10 PM
In terms of adoption, Linux servers are more or less replacing legacy Unix deployments, so until I see a trend away from Unix derived systems (that include BSD brews) I doubt Microsoft will ever depend on Windows Server as their meat and potatoes revenue.
No, but they are still obviously making money with it.  My dad uses it in his office with great success.

True, but you'll never see the likes of CCP (http://www.ccpgames.com/) running Eve Online (http://www.eveonline.com) on a cluster of Windows Servers. Large deployments require operating systems that can handle dynamic changes in their hardware environment like Linux, Solaris, and other HPC compliant OSes.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on November 09, 2009, 12:51:41 PM
In terms of adoption, Linux servers are more or less replacing legacy Unix deployments, so until I see a trend away from Unix derived systems (that include BSD brews) I doubt Microsoft will ever depend on Windows Server as their meat and potatoes revenue.
No, but they are still obviously making money with it.  My dad uses it in his office with great success.

True, but you'll never see the likes of CCP (http://www.ccpgames.com/) running Eve Online (http://www.eveonline.com) on a cluster of Windows Servers. Large deployments require operating systems that can handle dynamic changes in their hardware environment like Linux, Solaris, and other HPC compliant OSes.
I agree.  EVE is a great game too btw, I used to be a semi-addict.

From what I understand however, Windows Server does allow for dynamic changes, although I'm not entirely certain as that's not near my specialty.  I focus on desktop type stuff, including simple desktop servers.  Nothing too complicated though.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 09, 2009, 12:55:07 PM
Basically, Windows Server is a general purpose server OS, not something you'd use for HPC clusters. There is a special version of Windows Server that can be used in HPC clusters, but it's prohibitively expensive even compared to a Solaris license (which is a bitch on restricts, especially threads you can run), BSD, or Linux.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on November 09, 2009, 01:07:00 PM
I doubt Microsoft will ever depend on Windows Server as their meat and potatoes revenue.
It already is.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10294232-56.html
(http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20090723/microsoft_segment_610x266.JPG)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: blackie on November 09, 2009, 01:16:12 PM
Basically, Windows Server is a general purpose server OS, not something you'd use for HPC clusters.
Most server are not used for HPC clusters.

Lots of enterprise businesses use Windows Server for things like Active Directory and Exchange.
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on November 09, 2009, 01:16:54 PM
The overwhelmingly dominant reason why people beat up on Microsoft is their hatred of capitalism

You might be interested in the difference between "capitalism" and "merchantilism". That way you won't go throwing economics terms around while obviously not understanding them.

The overwhelming reason that people beat up on Microsoft is because Microsoft are arrogant bullies. Just like the United States government.

Nobody hates Microsoft for Microsoft's "freedom".
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Lukey on November 09, 2009, 02:10:32 PM
Look let me be honest I used to use windows for years all the time it would slow down and grind to a halt about every 6 months to a year sometimes even less and I always needed to mess around with it.
I got the Linux desktop made a small learning curve got a compatible graphics card and have never looked back, the upgrades are just a bonus and don't need to be installed, and all the software I could ever want and for free, and as a added bonus it never slows and is always the same as the day I installed it. and thats why I stick up for it, for me it has stopped a lot of stress that I had with windows.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on November 10, 2009, 03:42:38 PM
I doubt Microsoft will ever depend on Windows Server as their meat and potatoes revenue.
It already is.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10294232-56.html
(http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20090723/microsoft_segment_610x266.JPG)

What's the Client category? End consumer? Workstations? As for server and tools, that can include things like Active Directory and Exchange servers, which is where MS is heavily entrenched. Whereas in OSes that depend on being 'cloudish' (I hate the term, but it's close enough), you need something that can work with virtualization well enough to allow for relatively smooth transition of hardware. MS has HyperV, but it's still being worked on in terms of further improvements and adoption (I hope it gets adopted because it's been a slow track on the *nix branch of servers in terms of virtualization). So, I can't say Windows Server is where the majority of the funds are coming from when other products (AD and Exchange) can also account for the numbers.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 11, 2009, 01:25:24 PM
From Slashdot -- Firefox Most Vulnerable Browser, Safari Close (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/11/11/1626224/Firefox-Most-Vulnerable-Browser-Safari-Close) --

Quote
Cenzic (http://www.cenzic.com/) released its report revealing the most prominent types of Web application vulnerabilities for the first half of 2009.  The report identified over 3,100 total vulnerabilities, which is a 10 percent increase in Web application vulnerabilities compared to the second half of 2008.  Among Web browsers, Mozilla Firefox had the largest percentage of Web vulnerabilities (http://www.net-security.org/secworld.php?id=8489), followed by Apple Safari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safari_(web_browser)), whose browser showed a vast increase in exploits, due to vulnerabilities reported in the Safari iPhone browser.

It seems a bit surprising to me that this study shows that only 15% of vulnerabilities are in IE.


Firefox had 44% of the discovered vulnerabilities, Safari had 35%, Internet Explorer 15%, and Opera had 6%.  Google Chrome wasn't mentioned.  But, regardless of which browser you use - even if it's available for Linux, the default binaries (and most likely ideal optimizations as well) will run slower than on Windows (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1257784) - and that benchmark doesn't even consider Silverlight / Flash, but uses Java instead, which should definitely give Linux an unfair advantage!
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: BobRobertson on November 11, 2009, 02:06:40 PM
Firefox had 44% of the discovered vulnerabilities, Safari had 35%, Internet Explorer 15%, and Opera had 6%.

Ah, "discovered" vulnerabilities.

It would be interesting if the "discovered" problems within Internet Explorer that are discovered internally were added, not just the ones publicly reported. One of the negatives of "open" development is that problems are easily seen.
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: Cognitive Dissident on November 11, 2009, 02:55:55 PM
The overwhelmingly dominant reason why people beat up on Microsoft is their hatred of capitalism

You might be interested in the difference between "capitalism" and "merchantilism". That way you won't go throwing economics terms around while obviously not understanding them.

The overwhelming reason that people beat up on Microsoft is because Microsoft are arrogant bullies. Just like the United States government.

Nobody hates Microsoft for Microsoft's "freedom".

Well put.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 11, 2009, 03:23:31 PM
It would be interesting if the "discovered" problems within Internet Explorer that are discovered internally were added, not just the ones publicly reported. One of the negatives of "open" development is that problems are easily seen.

Shut up, or the user plebs might hear you!  My NASDAQ-listed pals paid good money for that FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) study and then astroturf the results around the Web, and you're ruining it!  Hush!

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-devil20.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on November 13, 2009, 06:10:23 AM
From Slashdot -- Microsoft Buys Teamprise, Will Ship Linux Tools (http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/11/13/0513208/Microsoft-Buys-Teamprise-Will-Ship-Linux-Tools) --

Quote
Microsoft's Senior Vice President, Developer Division (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/somasegar/default.aspx), S. Somasegar (http://blogs.msdn.com/somasegar/) has announced that Microsoft has acquired  Teamprise (http://www.teamprise.com/) from Sourcegear, LLC (http://sourcegear.com/), and will be shipping it as part of the upcoming Visual Studio 2010 (http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010/default.mspx) release.  Teamprise is an Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/) plugin (and related tools) for connecting to Team Foundation Server (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/teamsystem/dd408382.aspx), Microsoft's source-control / project-management system.  What's most interesting about this is not only that Microsoft has realized that heterogeneous development platforms are important to their developer customers, but the fact that Microsoft themselves will now be developing and shipping products based on those heterogeneous platforms, including 5 versions of Unix (http://teamprise.com/products/systemreqs.html).

Another step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: NHArticleTen on December 04, 2009, 04:52:27 PM
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/goto.png)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 04, 2009, 05:26:29 PM
I once worked with a QA guy who I thought of as a dinosaur...


Anywayz, having tried all the new and upcoming Microsoft products, including Silverlight 4 beta, I'm going back to Linux.  (Sure, I'd rather be running a BSD-licensed OS, but they suck even worse.)  I don't like the Linux desktop, but hey - it's home.  Kissing Stallman's government-loving butt and having to run a mixture of GTK, Qt, XUL, Java, and Wine applications isn't so bad...  really...   :?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on December 05, 2009, 02:00:52 PM
I once worked with a QA guy who I thought of as a dinosaur...

I worked at NASA for a while, and it was interesting seeing the ancient artifacts from the Golden Age tottering around. Not that they weren't perfectly fine people, they may even have been doing somewhat productive work. A couple even reminded me of dinosaurs. Or at least actual fossils.

Quote
Anywayz, having tried all the new and upcoming Microsoft products, including Silverlight 4 beta, I'm going back to Linux.  (Sure, I'd rather be running a BSD-licensed OS, but they suck even worse.)

I put Win7 on the laptop I retired from daily use over the summer, due to repeated hardware failures. Basically, I wore it out, even though Linux on the 2.8GHz P4 (ca 2003) still screamed. And I'd been looking for an excuse to get a multi-core system for a while...

Anyway, just sitting there, Win7 will put the disk into serious use for 5-10 minutes out of nowhere, even if it's just sitting there without being used and with no applications running. I have NOT installed anti-virus or any of the other crapware. Leaving taskman open, CPU usage goes to 40-50%, disk lights flashing, and nothing running. Strange.

Quote
I don't like the Linux desktop, but hey - it's home.  Kissing Stallman's government-loving butt and having to run a mixture of GTK, Qt, XUL, Java, and Wine applications isn't so bad...  really...   :?

Never having kissed Stallman anywhere, I can't say. I'm not a beard man.

If I may ask, since KDE can be made to look/act much like the traditional Windows interface, what it is you don't like? Is it just the mix of GTK, Qt, Java, etc, or is it "look and feel"? I've noticed that much use of Windows now cannot be done without that "mix" of Java, etc, either.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 05, 2009, 02:07:03 PM
The last check from Ballmer bounced, so I don't have anything positive or constructive to say about any Microsoft products at the moment, not even the best and lighest software alternatives to use, not even which crappy services might be slowing down your laptop that you probably need to disable. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 09, 2009, 09:48:58 PM
From another thread --

I notice they never mention that it's a Windows virus.

If you're concerned at all about security on your PC, don't use Windows.

(I use Linux, but there are lots of alternatives that are also free as in no cost)

I've already debunked the "Linux desktop is more secure" argument to pieces!  Comparing apples to apples it's actually less secure, but 100x more obscure, so the virus writers don't bother targeting it, and it's not targeted for commie ideological reasons as well.  I can write a trojan that fills your hard drive with kiddy porn in a 10-line obfuscated perl script, no ASM required!  Your only protection is the fact that Linux can do what Microsoft is forbidden by law - put all its software into trusted repositories so you hardly ever have to download anything from anywhere else.  If I can social-engineer you into adding my Debian repository, for example, you're even more screwed than an average Windows user, who's at least running anti-virus by default!  (And it's still easier to inject malicious checksum-spoofing chunks into a distro ISO you're downloading via BitTorrent, for example, than to do so to something that comes directly from Microsoft.)  A noob stupid enough to download a Windows virus can fuck up a Linux box just as well, but the latter has lots of networking tools and encryption libraries already installed for the malware to leverage!

(Disclaimer: I am running Linux at the moment, but not because I think it's good at keeping newbies content and secure.)


EDIT: and, oh look, coincidentally it so happens that someone targeted Ubuntu (l)users today (http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/12/09/2215253/Malware-Found-Hidden-In-Screensaver-On-Gnome-Look) exactly as I described...  :roll:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on December 10, 2009, 01:21:12 PM
From another thread --

I notice they never mention that it's a Windows virus.

If you're concerned at all about security on your PC, don't use Windows.

I've already debunked the "Linux desktop is more secure" argument to pieces!

No, all you've done is assert this:

Quote
If I can social-engineer you

Which works for anyone, at any time, on any system.

Yes, let's compare apples to apples. Sure. This guy gets infected because of using Internet Explorer to some random web site with the hack-du-jure running, that only infects Windows.

Go ahead and assert the "obscurity" theme. I won't even try to deny that there may very well be some aspect of that, except that such a substantial number of very profitable targets run Linux and they're not getting hacked into multi-national zombie PC 'Bot nets in huge numbers every day.

Quote
A noob stupid enough to download a Windows virus can fuck up a Linux box just as well

Such is life. Luckily, there is a lot of documentation available for "noobs" to help. Not running as root is a good start.

Quote
and, oh look, coincidentally it so happens that someone targeted Ubuntu users today exactly as I described...

Well, that's one.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 17, 2009, 08:09:05 PM
My latest attempt to force myself to use Ubuntu Linux has been so terrible I feel like I was raped!  It ended with me being banned from UbuntuForums.org for daring to question the copyleft philosophy (as compared to truly free software like BSD)...  I just broke every Linux distro CD/DVD I could get my hands on.  FUCKING IDIOTS!!!  :x  :x  :x

Now again I'm faced with an important life decision - BSD or Microsoft...  It's a way more important decision that chosing a life partner, because I don't think anyone spends 8-16 hours per day programming one's wife...

The former isn't really an option, because you can't get jack shit done without bowing to the same commie GNU gods, and although its license is free most BSD software was actually funded through public universities and government research grands.  Microsoft really is the best thing the human race is capable of accomplishing thus-far.

:x
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on December 17, 2009, 08:21:22 PM
Quote
I don't think anyone spends 8-16 hours per day programming one's wife...

Hell yes.  Talk to Brede here, may be able to help.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on December 18, 2009, 10:25:20 AM
My latest attempt to force myself to use Ubuntu Linux has been so terrible I feel like I was raped!

An experienced user restricting himself to Ubuntu is a silly thing to do.

Quote
It ended with me being banned from UbuntuForums.org for daring to question the copyleft philosophy (as compared to truly free software like BSD).

Picking a fight on someone else's turf sounds like a good reason for banning to me.

Quote
I just broke every Linux distro CD/DVD I could get my hands on.  FUCKING IDIOTS!!!  :x  :x  :x

Could have limited your wrath to the Ubuntu disks. But that wouldn't be so much fun.

You really aught to stop blaming others for your choices.

Quote
Microsoft really is the best thing the human race is capable of accomplishing thus-far.

Painting with a broad brush. It might very well be what works for YOU, just like some people cling to government. It doesn't work for everyone.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on December 18, 2009, 01:25:20 PM
An experienced user restricting himself to Ubuntu is a silly thing to do.

My favourite Linux distro a while back has been Gentoo, but it no longer has the momentum it once had.  Debian and Ubuntu seem to be the way to go in terms of pre-compiled performance, and I also wanted to pick the most popular one.  If you count all the forks, Ubuntu's is definitely growing into the dominant distro in the desktop Linux world.


Picking a fight on someone else's turf sounds like a good reason for banning to me.

That whole distro brands itself around a particular philosophy, and they do have plenty of political discussions there - the mods only get involved when the touchy-feely "GNU/Linux will liberate the world from evil corporations" mentality is ever brought to serious scrutiny.  I have defeated their arguments, and forced them to show their true colours by resorting to public censorship.


You really aught to stop blaming others for your choices.

I never do that.  I rant about other people's stupidity, especially when it involves encouraging government force and then calling it "freedom"!  :x


[Microsoft] might very well be what works for YOU  [...]  it doesn't work for everyone.

No, Microsoft doesn't work for me either (unless they've thrown an extra R&D billion at Interix since the last time I checked), but it does provide the best desktop experience for a non-technical user who actually wants to get shit done.
Title: Re: Linux is just fine.
Post by: ElGuapo on December 18, 2009, 01:50:40 PM
Firefox had 44% of the discovered vulnerabilities, Safari had 35%, Internet Explorer 15%, and Opera had 6%.

Ah, "discovered" vulnerabilities.

It would be interesting if the "discovered" problems within Internet Explorer that are discovered internally were added, not just the ones publicly reported. One of the negatives of "open" development is that problems are easily seen.

To pick on your statement; if a "vulnerability" has not been "discovered" then it is not a vulnerability because nobody discovered it and the likelihood of exploitation remains at precisely 0.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on December 18, 2009, 02:39:27 PM
Debian and Ubuntu seem to be the way to go in terms of pre-compiled performance, and I also wanted to pick the most popular one.

That's why I run Debian. Or something like that, anyway.

The reason I don't run Ubuntu is two-fold. 1, they depend upon a snapshot of Debian Unstable, which as its name implies is NOT STABLE. 2, it's absolutely loaded with people who have no idea what they're doing, and have software confused with politics, exactly as you experienced.

Quote
If you count all the forks, Ubuntu's is definitely growing into the dominant distro in the desktop Linux world.

I don't back the US Government because it's dominant, either.

Quote
I rant about other people's stupidity, especially when it involves encouraging government force and then calling it "freedom"!  :x

In their forums, where they are well within their rights to banish you.

And they did.

Quote
No, Microsoft doesn't work for me either (unless they've thrown an extra R&D billion at Interix since the last time I checked),

I'll give them credit where credit is due, the install of 7 is much simpler and less visually "noisy" and preachy than prior versions. Still doesn't recognize much hardware, but that's to be expected.

Quote
but it does provide the best desktop experience for a non-technical user who actually wants to get shit done.

No it doesn't. The applications are what are or are not going to "get shit done" with a non-technical user, the OS is irrelevant. For getting the OS out of the way so the applications can run Windows _sucks_.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on January 15, 2010, 02:40:24 PM
(http://eatliver.com/img/2009/4943.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 21, 2010, 03:39:03 AM
A few choice quotes from an Ubuntu Forums thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1067273) about Cuba's Nova Linux (http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=nova):


Quote
Go Communism!  Things change a bit faster with such a government, for the better.


Quote
"The free software movement is closer to the ideology of the Cuban people, above all for the independence and sovereignty."


Quote
Cuba is the most free nation in the world, they give their citizens health care free of charge and they let everyone go to universities without having to pay money. Before the revolution most Cuban people wouldn't even be able to tell you what a university is! In Cuba the people get payed well and Fidel Castro is payed in the same manner as everyone else, unlike the Bush family of millionaires
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 23, 2010, 03:52:03 AM
So, not counting the previous post, I've neglected this thread for a few months while I was trying to spark up a libertarian BSD-over-GPL (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=28400) free software (sub)movement that I can live with.  That showed no promise of any light at the end of the tunnel...  :cry:

I'm now back to the question that plagued the hell out of me for the past year (ever since I got the first Windows 7 alpha and opened my mind to Microsoft just a little bit) - which path shall I marry my career to.  The LAMP stack is definitely the path of least resistance at this point, but I'm not sure I can live with myself after the ideological rift that was exposed between that world and myself...



I'd like to to emphasize just the first few paragraphs from this 3-year-old Washington Post article -- Learning From Microsoft's Error, Google Builds a Lobbying Engine (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/19/AR2007061902058.html) --

Quote
When it comes to lobbying, Google does not intend to repeat the mistake that its rival Microsoft made a decade ago.

Microsoft was so disdainful of the federal government back then that it had almost no presence in Washington.  Largely because of that neglect, the company was blindsided by a government antitrust lawsuit that cost it dearly.

Mindful of that history, Google is rapidly building a substantial presence in Washington and using that firepower against Microsoft, among others.

[...]

The Feds struck the first blow!

Microsoft didn't jump in bed with the government, it was raped first!!!

Does that legitimize some of Microsoft's government butt-kissing?  I think it does.  Heck, even Hank Rearden had his Washington men to cover his butt from government aggression (at least before a serious Gulching opportunity presented itself)...

If I could climb down from my Anarcho-Capitalist ivory tower at least to the Objectivist / Randroid level, which would suit me quite well, then I can certainly live with Microsoft.

What do y'all think?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: error on February 23, 2010, 08:08:19 AM
It's not a good idea to pretend the state doesn't exist, or to ignore it entirely; they may not return the favor. The ivory tower has a nice view, until the government bombs it.

So I have no problem with taking action to protect yourself from the state. I do have a problem with using the state to protect yourself from competitors.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 23, 2010, 08:39:11 PM
Bureaucratic self-defense aside, Microsoft's biggest flaw is their reliance on intellectual property law - probably more so than any other major software company, because it would be easier to build a business model around products like Oracle's based on contracts alone.  Objectivists and most other capitalist libertarians wouldn't have a problem with this (http://athousandnations.com/2009/12/05/why-libertarians-should-stop-worrying-and-learn-to-love-intellectual-property/), only radical AnCaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Intellectual_property) like me...

But, excluding the aforementioned, how else is Microsoft benefiting from government force more than any other large corporation?  I don't get what you mean by "using the state to protect yourself from competitors"...  Microsoft fought an uphill battle against the patents of other corporations until they got to the top, which they mostly did by their own merits (in their consumers' minds, of course, not necessarily yours or mine).  I saw the so-called Halloween Documents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Halloween_documents_leak), but I don't see anything in them that would constitute additional initiation of force.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Bill Brasky on February 23, 2010, 09:25:16 PM
What freeware should I use to open Windows 7 iso directly from my hd instead of burning it on a disc? 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 23, 2010, 09:36:31 PM
Previously on this thread I've recommended Virtual CloneDrive (http://download.cnet.com/Virtual-CloneDrive/3000-20432_4-173879.html) (FreeWare), but I think just about any virtual drive program will work.  I believe you can even just extract the ISO (via WinZIP, WinRAR, 7zip, etc) and run "setup.exe".
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Bill Brasky on February 23, 2010, 10:13:37 PM
Cool.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: error on February 24, 2010, 12:54:23 AM
AAARGH, take the tech support somewhere else!

As for Microsoft, apparently they thought what's good for cooking their goose is good for them to cook everyone else's gander. Or did you forget what they tried to do with claiming patents on Linux? Most everyone called bullshit. Then there was the MS-Novell deal which pretty much made SuSE "Microsoft Linux" and represented the beginning of MS's attempt to "embrace, extend and extinguish." Fortunately it didn't really work, but MS still came out ahead with the free money they extorted from various companies by "licensing" "their" "intellectual property" "rights" in Linux.

As for me, I won't ever buy SuSE or Novell products. (Or MS, but that was a given...)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 24, 2010, 02:06:35 AM
As noted above, Microsoft is not the first software company to use government force in their favor, and it wouldn't have done much good for them to be a hero and refuse to play the patent game - they'd be eaten alive by patent trolls and less benevolent corporation(s) would fill their market share pretty darn fast.

And, once again, I'm calling hypocrisy - you put "intellectual property" in scare quotes (as do I), but you sneer at my "BSD over GPL (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=28400)" arguments, and you still use CC-NC on your (otherwise wonderful) site (http://www.homelandstupidity.us/).  You can't have your cake and eat it too...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on February 24, 2010, 07:21:52 AM
I'm still laughing at the fact that MS still has to raid BSD code to fix its shit (e.g. network stack).
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 24, 2010, 07:34:59 AM
That was a long time ago.  And the word "raid" implies some sort of aggression, which isn't the case as the BSD license deliberately allows proprietary reuse.  Most people contributing BSD code understand that they help lift all ships - for the greater good of the whole marketplace, as well as its consumers / users.  Why would you expect Microsoft (or Apple, or Google, or anyone else) to reinvent the wheel when a sufficient solution is already available to them?
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on February 24, 2010, 07:39:46 AM
They could have the balls to innovate? Maybe like add new shit that people may or may not want? You know the market process? I'm not against closed source, but I'm against lazy bums that don't pay for what they use. Like welfare queens with six thousand babies hanging off their coochie flaps and shit. Or so-called war vets getting housing assistance when the worse thing that happened to them in war time was catching syphilis from a pre-teen whore while on duty.

Anyways, it's still shitting, I don't care what the letter of law says as I care about its spirit more so.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 24, 2010, 08:00:02 AM
Innovation is nice.  Low prices are nice.  Doubling programmer salaries is also nice.  But Microsoft isn't a charity, it's a for-profit corporation.  Its goals are to maximize profits (within the confines of the law, of course, unless it can influence the law legally, which is also legal).  The benefits to consumers, employees, etc come as the result of competition.  And at the time there was no market pressure to invest into inventing, implementing, testing, documenting, deploying, etc a better TCP/IP stack.  When there was, they did.

And at least the welfare queens are reproducing, heroically keeping America's fertility rate hanging on the edge of a cliff at just above 2.05...  :roll:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on February 24, 2010, 08:11:01 AM
I suggest you listen to the latest episode of EconTalk where the whole idea that you need more workers (thus more babies) to keep productivity up. Guess what? We're more productive today in this recession than we have been in all previous recessions. Gee I wonder why... *cough* processes don't need more workers once started *coughs*
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 24, 2010, 08:48:29 AM
That's stupid.  More brains => more economic value.  Always.  It doesn't just mean more workers but also more property owners, more consumers, greater economy of scale, more variety, more subjects for statistical analysis (which is very important for medical discoveries), greater probability of more super-geniuses that create unique ideas, etc.

And people need to learn to think in terms of expected growth.  People see 3% growth and they think "yaay", but what they don't see is that it could have been 6% if not for some major stupidity getting in the way, and that difference could be a matter of life and death for some people - literally.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on February 24, 2010, 09:26:00 AM
That's stupid.  More brains => more economic value. Always.
Um no. Value comes from individual subjectivity. It's intensity is ordinal, not cardinal. *smacks you with a Scholar's Edition of Human Action*
Much like Boolean values or enum scales are ordinal in use, thus cannot be computed by mere summation or other arithmic operators.

Quote
It doesn't just mean more workers but also more property owners, more consumers, greater economy of scale, more variety, more subjects for statistical analysis (which is very important for medical discoveries), greater probability of more super-geniuses that create unique ideas, etc.
You're confusing economic value for economy of scale, please get that straightened out.

Quote
And people need to learn to think in terms of expected growth.  People see 3% growth and they think "yaay", but what they don't see is that it could have been 6% if not for some major stupidity getting in the way, and that difference could be a matter of life and death for some people - literally.
Expected grow doesn't do much for the actual process of optimization and/or operation of a firm. These two concerns pre-exist as a given for any firm, it doesn't necessarily need inputs from total population of the Earth. A bigger market in terms of more customers is just nice, but growth can be had other ways (hint: read the previous two sentences as to where to find it.).

The fact you can't grasp the basics of economics makes me wonder how the fuck you can even code. Software architecture and development follow from the same basic principles of praxeology (more so than not). I suggest boning on it so you can do better for yourself than spew more illiterate nonsense.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 24, 2010, 09:38:25 AM
That explains a lot about you...
Title: Re: Linux Works
Post by: BobRobertson on February 24, 2010, 10:45:08 AM
That's stupid.  More brains => more economic value. Always.
Um no. Value comes from individual subjectivity. It's intensity is ordinal, not cardinal. *smacks you with a Scholar's Edition of Human Action*

If I may point out how both of you are right, more brains => greater potential economic value.

Great essay on the differences that arise from two different ways of looking at human nature, the "constrained" vs. "unconstrained" vision of humanity:

http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-we-got-here-is-failure-to.html
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on February 24, 2010, 11:09:56 AM
That explains a lot about you...


Like what? For me, I'm just a nerd for emergent order, then again Life is emergent order so I could say that I'm the child of such. If that's a problem with you then you can pray to Plato for the Ideal Realm of perfect forms and some such. Here in the real world, we deal with emergent order as it's the only real order. *shrugs*

It doesn't mean there won't be people having babies, families, and the like, but it does mean that all assumptions that emergent order is something exclusive to them is idiotic. Stop trying to fit everything into a single form of action as there is no such thing. There is only water and song, things that can take any form, but have no form for themselves. They come, they go, they merge, and divide. Is it hard for you to imagine this? Doesn't Nature's own menagerie hint at it for you? If not, I can't help you.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on February 24, 2010, 05:33:50 PM
Um, this is a Microsoft thread.  I have a number of other threads for debunking extinctionist propaganda elsewhere.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on July 06, 2010, 07:00:10 PM
So I went through another one of my "Ayn Rand wants me to use proprietary software because all FLOSS is tainted by commie moocher ideology and methods" phases last month - and luckily such mentality does not also include Ayn Rand's opinion on intellectual property laws.  ;)

I've done and pirated myself up a new Microsoft setup, and things seem to have improved a bit since the last time I've tried it.

Visual Studio 2010 / .NET 4 are even awesomer than when they were in beta!  (Though abandoning my beloved Ultimate++ (http://www.ultimatepp.org/) would have been tough.)  Robotics Developer Studio (http://www.microsoft.com/robotics/) is the awesomest thing evah!  SQL Server 2008 R2 is very good too, and I took more time to play around with a fully loaded version of it.  Office 2010 didn't seem to change much since beta, and it's not really something I'd use every day so I didn't spend much time on it.  Zune (http://www.zune.net/en-us/products/software/download/default.htm) also seems to have improved quite a bit, and it's almost good enough to be the only audio / video player you need.

Graphics and video are immediately better / faster than I was ever able to get them in Gentoo Linux after much tweaking - this seems to be the case on other distros / hardware as well (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_windows_part1&num=11) [2] (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_windows_part3&num=5).  All browsers also benchmark a bit better on Windows than in Linux (and don't even get me started on *BSD) - and I can't wait for IE9 (http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/)!

Installing all this software (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=32845.msg591209#msg591209) is still a pain (unless you have a prior partition image of course), but every time I try it I find some little way of making it easier (ex. Utilu Mozilla Firefox Collection (http://finalbuilds.edskes.net/utilumfc.htm)). Interix still sucks, but you can only blame the FLOSS community for not supporting it.

During this "I'm gonna marry Microsoft" phase I've considered what it would take to make Windows a better overall experience than Linux (ex. Ubuntu), and I've put together an idea for a freeware package I'd call...  Pirate Utilities!

It would include:





Alas, it was not to be...  I've decided not to marry myself to Microsoft...  Some other pirate / cracker / WaReZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warez) group will have to implement those ideas, because I sure as hell won't, at least not for free...

Goodbye, Microsoft...  I love (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=34218) you...  Goodbye...   :?


:lol:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 08, 2010, 12:45:31 AM
This reminds me, I got into a manic state and installed Linux, fucked around with partitions, then went back to XP and I realized that I must have accidentally deleted a few hundred hours worth of recorded TV along the line.

Feels bad man. :sadface:
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on July 08, 2010, 02:32:33 AM
In theory you no longer need to modify your partitions to try new operating systems - just use emulation, a loopmounted disk image, (in compatible cases) a chrooted environment / jail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD_jail) / container (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_Containers), etc, etc, etc.

The problem with my "life-altering" "final" "decisions" about which "software philosophy" I'm "marrying" is that I wanted to "scrape myself clean" of the "former way of doing things", which even involved throwing away all related CD/DVD media (good thing I've donated all my books before leaving NJ).  The number of times I've re-downloaded / re-burned certain ISO images is simply comedic!  :lol:

I never lose my actual work though, at least not recently - I'm fanatical about backups (and so are most of my clients, who usually host the source code repositories).  I've lost plenty of my early creative writing in my teens, but mostly because I didn't really care all that much about saving it.  Things you can get from BitTorrent (ex. TV shows) aren't worth burning anymore (unless it's something rare), because nowadays you can download it faster than the time it takes to flip through a DVD folder.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 08, 2010, 03:42:24 AM
I should have emulated Ubuntu then :(

The TV shows I recorded I recorded because I couldn't find them anywhere to download and plus I'm on a very shitty wifi connection that is supposedly connected from 5 miles away. So yeah.

SADFACE

DOT

GIF

(should have backed it up on DVDs!)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on July 08, 2010, 05:42:59 AM
Ubuntu is for commies.  Real Unix is the way to go, and Unix's not GNU.  I've been looking at ways to reduce the copyleftiness of my Unix stack, like compiling with Clang (still doesn't work for many things though).  The need for things like FFMPEG will definitely not go away any time soon...  :cry:

Or you can stick it to the commies by simply staying with Microsoft, and you'll never have to edit a .conf or a Makefile to get anything to work, ever!  (Except possibly hosts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosts_(file)).)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on July 11, 2010, 03:08:09 PM
From the "Best Unix OS / BSD / Linux distro (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29820)" thread:

[Post Subject Edited to "Windows is your Friend!!"]

(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab338/JaggedSteel1/Windows_Is_Your_Friend.jpg)

What is wrong with Windows? I mean, it's not like Bill's dad was a CIA operative who arranged to have Windows be adopted by Government agencies, thereby making it the standard for worldwide use, or that it has intentional "backdoors" built into it to ensure that everything you do can be secretly monitored or that Black Ops can be funded by stealing from thousands of different accounts because they have all online bank passwords. Maybe Bill gets a bad Rap- it's not like he uses his ill gotten wealth to institute Eugenics programs in Africa, which are experiments for use on us or anything....

I know.  But I get Ayn Rand flashbacks sometimes...  :lol:

You can make up all the conspiracy theories you want, and they might be true, but the factual evidence that I can see is that the government has always been biased against Microsoft, and it was the private sector choices that resulted it in its current market share.  Sure, Microsoft depends on IP laws, but so do all of its competitors, and, as pointed out above, it was the least Washington-lobbying company out there until it paid the price through DOJ bullying as the result.

FLOSS is just too featha-teathn' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_need) for my tastes.  Voluntary communism is still communism - an inferior economic model that produces inferior results and leaves everyone dependent.

I understand how hyper-competition in the free market would quickly drive basic software costs to 0, but there will always be room for innovation and hardware / service bundling through which companies can make a profit.  FLOSS puritanism, which doesn't only apply to copyleft, wants to put an end to that and encourages people to only use free software, even if it sucks and the total cost of ownership is much higher.  A policy of paying a little bit more in software licensing could mean higher software quality, greater productivity, and better career potential for all (except Linux's #1 fan Hugo Chavez perhaps).

FLOSS is inseparable from government force, not just in its culture (most GNU zealots also want "net neutrality", etc), but in its basic economic model as well.  A huge fraction of it is written by government-supported students and organizations.  When you download Windows software you are downloading from a voluntary entity, when you download FLOSS software the bandwidth most likely comes from the tax victims in one way or another.  Government control over the Internet is the GNU commies' ultimate goal...  :x

Perhaps the best solution is a pragmatic mixture of UNIX software, both permissively licensed FLOSS and proprietary (http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/software.html), that can run on all UNIX(like) operating systems / environments: Microsoft Interix, MacOS X, AIX, *BSD, MINIX, HP-UX, Tru64, SCO UnixWare / OpenServer, etc, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 11, 2010, 03:43:33 PM
FLOSS is inseparable from government force, not just in its culture (most GNU zealots also want "net neutrality", etc)

Sigh. And all Democrats are on welfare, all Republicans love war, all libertarians smoke dope, all anarchists are just socialists who want to throw bombs.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on July 11, 2010, 04:34:42 PM
I've said "most", not "all" - and I can point to the years I've spent in FLOSS-related IRC chat-rooms, mailing lists, and Web-forums as evidence.  A lot of FLOSS code comes from the government or taxvictim-funded universities.  Most Linux distros also get their hosting bills paid that way.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on July 12, 2010, 02:15:55 PM
I've said "most", not "all"

And I drive on government roads, use a government monopoly for my electric service.

It's the environment that exists. Abolish it, please.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on July 12, 2010, 04:00:33 PM
I gave up driving, and I'm looking forward to getting me some solar panels as soon as I can.  ;)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 12, 2010, 05:09:48 PM
I gave up driving, and I'm looking forward to getting me some solar panels as soon as I can.  ;)


You may be interested in something like this, Libman:

http://www.ccrane.com/more-categories/alternative-power/freeplay-freecharge-weza-portable-energy-source.aspx

Discontinued now, but it'll give you one hell of an exercise. Especially when combined with something like http://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-Technologies-802-1500-Powerpack-500-Watt/dp/B00005RHQQ
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on August 02, 2010, 01:20:41 PM
So I went through another one of my "Ayn Rand wants me to use proprietary software because all FLOSS is tainted by commie moocher ideology and methods" phases last month -

...and then went back to Microsoft.

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/success.png)
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on August 02, 2010, 08:13:48 PM
No, I haven't been "back to Microsoft" since the incidents described above.  This thread has outlived its usefulness for the most part...  Until my next "all UNIX'es are commies" mood-swing at least...  :roll:

Gentoo Linux is the most powerful and flexible OS in the world, Ubuntu is the easiest (easier than Windows), OpenBSD is the freest and most fanatically code-audited but has limited uses, and FreeBSD is the freest OS that you can actually live with (and the one most likely to be forked / repackaged into a libertarian-oriented distro, if not by me then by somebody else).  It's also fun to try some other Linux distros (ex. Red Hat) once in a while, but only to briefly overview what they've accomplished in a year since you tried them last.

Regarding dual-booting: I know my way around Linux / BSD boot-loaders, but the process is still too problem-prone for most people.  Virtualization and ZFS makes hopping between Linux, BSD, and Solaris UNIX'es a bit easier, although ZFS still isn't supported by tools like gparted, most Linux installers, or major commercial partition utilities, most likely for licensing reasons.  How sad...  I really hope HAMMER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAMMER) takes off as a universal filesystem someday - it's probably the most advanced FS out there, and one that can be ported to any OS without licensing restrictions of any kind.  I actually want companies like Microsoft, Apple, Paragon, Acronis, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disk_partitioning_software) to "borrow" as much copyFREE (http://copyfree.org/licenses/) code as they can, which would improve interoperability quite a bit.

Ironically Microsoft touts interoperability as one of its advantages over UNIX, but I think it's the other way around.  Even with Interix and all, Microsoft remains an island (even though at times a beautiful and innovative island) I just can't commit myself to. 
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on August 03, 2010, 11:56:56 AM
So I went through another one of my "Ayn Rand wants me to use proprietary software because all FLOSS is tainted by commie moocher ideology and methods" phases last month -

...and then went back to Microsoft.

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/success.png)

This was the Holy Domina April when she tried out Ubuntu for a month.

Come to think of it, it also happened when I tried to install a hard drive and a DVD-RW drive into an old desktop once...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on August 03, 2010, 05:29:00 PM
The latest Ubuntu installer is so easy it threatens humanity as a species!  The laws of evolution no longer apply!  Brain-dead idiots are able to shrink their NTFS partitions (or create a loopmounted disk image (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_%28Ubuntu_installer%29)) and install Linux!  It's like "affirmative action" for jocks!  No more natural selection!  The horror, the horror!  :roll:

Don't get me wrong, I've screwed up a few partitions in my day too, but mostly because of DOS-based partition tools having poor support for UNIX partitions, or once when I forgot that my /dev/sda* numbers were out of order...
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: BobRobertson on August 04, 2010, 04:40:46 PM
or once when I forgot that my /dev/sda* numbers were out of order...

To quote from one of the kid's computer games, "A Bug's Life",

"Oooo! That's gonna leave a stain."
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: Alex Libman on August 22, 2010, 08:45:01 PM
You are a zealot who pushes your restrictive monokernel socialist software fantasies

For someone who is so quick to label anyone who dares to disagree with you as offering "just mindless insults", you spend a large part of your time spewing mindless insults.

My insults are perfectly mindful, and my arguments are backed by logic and facts.


And with that I bid this thread adieu.

Drive by trolling. Typical. I'll believe that when I _don't_ see any more postings by you. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Please.

Thread-hop (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=34703) accomplished.
Title: Re: Linux Sucks. Java sucks. I'm a Microsoft guy again!
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on September 13, 2010, 04:03:16 PM
This is probably going to make a LOT of people start using open-source software in Russia...

http://gizmodo.com/5636668/russia-using-microsoft-to-silence-dissenters