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Author Topic: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.  (Read 16089 times)

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ReasonableVoice

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Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« on: February 01, 2014, 01:52:11 PM »

"War on Liberty" in not being waged by all those who believe in the IDEA of the STATE.

Many believe in the IDEA of the STATE as way to BRING more LIBERTY.


Yes, certain portions of the current implementation of the State
clearly are a portion of an enemy, but they are not the head of the snake.


Though many "Libertarians" or "Liberty Lovers" berate the idea of the State and,
worse, berate Statists (those who believe in using the idea of the State to good purpose),
the truth is . . . the idea of the State is a neutral thing just like any tool.

Statism is nothing more than a tool.

Corporatism is a tool.

A firearm is a tool.

Some tools when used improperly or without proper maintenance can be dangerous
and when those tools fall into the wrong hands can be VERY VERY . . . VERY dangerous.


Those who gain control over large implementations of Corporatism
can then use that tool to gain control over most implementations of Statism.
(  implementations of the idea of the State with solid constitutional founding
             are more difficult for them, but not impossible )

The "money changers" are well aware of this and have used their "money changing ways(often by fraud)"
to gain control over large implementations of the Corporatism tool.
They then use those implementations of the Corporatism tool to gain control over
implementations of the Statism tool.

The tools are not the problem !
Some of the hands in which those tools are currently held - THAT is the problem.

If you observe the revolving doors between the implementations of Corporatism and Statism
you can see how this slight of hand is performed.

The revolving door between Goldman Sachs et al. and the Department of the Treasury.
the revolving door between Monsanto board members and the top officials of the FDA,
the revolving door between . . . well, I think you get the idea.



PLEASE STOP FIGHTING with those who wish to use the TOOL of "the idea of the State"
in order to implement that idea in the form of a NAP guided constitutional governance (a form of minarcism).
THEY ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY.


PS

In early United States history, better limitations were in place concerning CORPORATIONS.

A corporation is not a NATURAL PERSON and should not have the rights of a natural person.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 02:41:24 PM by ReasonableVoice »
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alaric89

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 03:31:27 PM »

"Religian is not your enemy." said the priest and torturer to the heritic. "It is just a tool."
You are correct maam, belief in the state is indeed a tool.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 12:42:18 PM by alaric89 »
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dalebert

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2014, 04:16:15 PM »

PLEASE STOP FIGHTING with those who wish to use the TOOL of "the idea of the State"
in order to implement that idea in the form of a NAP guided constitutional governance (a form of minarcism).
THEY ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY.

WTF? Who is this (and the ALL CAPS in particular) directed at? I've not seen any anarchists fighting minarchists on this forum for a very long time. You started the first threads on the subject in possibly over a year. Maybe you're on the wrong forum for this debate (or any debate?). Dood... I actually started a website primarily for the purpose of promoting anarchy and even I hardly give a shit anymore.  The sooner you realize there are better things to do with your time, the better. I would encourage you to listen to just a few minutes of this from 44 mins in which I've linked.

http://youtu.be/Tn9-Ygto9yw?t=44m

Anarchists make up a very tiny percentage of the population. Do you think convincing a few of us here on this forum, let's say, uh... Alaric and me, that you will be anywhere closer to creating this perfect government you've constructed for your fantasy world? Really? Alaric and I are your primary obstacles?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 04:18:38 PM by dalebert »
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ReasonableVoice

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2014, 06:18:48 PM »

PLEASE STOP FIGHTING with those who wish to use the TOOL of "the idea of the State"
in order to implement that idea in the form of a NAP guided constitutional governance (a form of minarcism).
THEY ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY.

WTF? Who is this (and the ALL CAPS in particular) directed at? I've not seen any anarchists fighting minarchists on this forum for a very long time.


This was not directed at anyone specifically ( hence being located in the starting post ).

This was not directed at anyone in this forum that I am aware of.

This was directed at anyone who DOES fit the context (and was put there because of personal experience outside of this forum that many do fit that context and those may one day come here as well).


I actually started a website primarily for the purpose of promoting anarchy
Why do you mention that ?

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Ski Killington

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dalebert

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2014, 07:30:48 PM »

This was directed at anyone who DOES fit the context (and was put there because of personal experience outside of this forum that many do fit that context and those may one day come here as well).

My point remains. We're a very small portion of the population. How much can we matter? Shouldn't you be focused on the big-government types? Is it because some anarchists are not doing activism that you think is effective? If so, you'll have a much easier time convincing them to change their tactics than trying to convert them.

I actually started a website primarily for the purpose of promoting anarchy
Why do you mention that ?

Just to show that I feel like I've kind of been where you are. I had this notion that if I made just the right arguments, there would be this click in people's heads and some sort of enlightenment would sweep the country and we'd get freedom. I was practically religious about it. I was stuck on this notion that minarchists were just as bad, if not worse, than full-on big-government types, and I wasted a lot of personal energy and time on what now seems rather silly.

I feel like one of the greatest personal freedoms we can achieve is learning to live in the world we have and accept the things we can't change. I'll keep chiseling away whenever I can, taking bites out of the elephant, but the path to liberty is definitely a marathon (possibly multi-generational); not a sprint. I expect a lot of little victories, a lot of three-steps forward, two-steps-back sorts of events.

ReasonableVoice

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2014, 08:48:48 PM »

This was directed at anyone who DOES fit the context (and was put there because of personal experience outside of this forum that many do fit that context and those may one day come here as well).

My point remains.

Are you concluding that
1) I spend a lot(or too much) of time posting here
and
2) I don't spend time in other avenues and activities

???
 
If so, that would be your opinion and
my opinion would be different on both counts.



Just to show that I feel like I've kind of been where you are.

OK, thanks.



I feel like one of the greatest personal freedoms we can achieve is learning to live in the world we have and accept the things we can't change. I'll keep chiseling away whenever I can, taking bites out of the elephant, but the path to liberty is definitely a marathon (possibly multi-generational); not a sprint.

I agree and there is wisdom in these words
and it even relates a little bit to my posting here.

Some people may not even understand the basics about
how a society works and why it needs governance(responsibility) to remain a healthy society.
When seen in print, it may spark an interest in researching the topic.
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dalebert

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2014, 09:14:46 PM »

Are you concluding that
1) I spend a lot(or too much) of time posting here
and
2) I don't spend time in other avenues and activities

No. Just on this particular subject. Like I said, the tiny portion of the population who doesn't want a monopoly form of government does not seem like much of an obstacle to your elaborate vision for a non-tyrannical government compared to the massive numbers who want a large and intrusive government.

Quote
If so, that would be your opinion and
my opinion would be different on both counts.

Clearly. You keep just stating your opinion which we already know. That's why I'm trying to get you to check your motivations.

Quote
Some people may not even understand the basics about how a society works and why it needs governance(responsibility) to remain a healthy society.
When seen in print, it may spark an interest in researching the topic.

That's just condescending. Most of us were minarchists ourselves for many years. I've been registered Democrat, Republican, and then Libertarian, in that order. I ran for office in CA and won my primary. I worked in the Republican party there for years. I did activism of all sorts for years before that. Trust me. You haven't said anything new to most of us. I've been where you are and have felt the same way as you at some point. The closest thing to something new in your arguments is that you're throwing the term "NAP" around a lot, mostly incorrectly.

It just brings me back to wondering why you care whether a tiny portion of the population believes in that. Why this battle? If you said you were going to go do activism (X) and I said I don't think (X) will help the cause of liberty, then you make the case for why (X) will help and why I should care. That I get, although the debate over whether anarchists should do politics is pretty tired as well.

Governments aren't going to become your fantasy version in your lifetime. Monopoly forms of government aren't going to go away in my lifetime. This debate is just mental masturbation.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 09:21:46 PM by dalebert »
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ReasonableVoice

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2014, 09:36:39 PM »

Some people may not even understand the basics about how a society works and why it needs governance(responsibility) to remain a healthy society.
When seen in print, it may spark an interest in researching the topic.
That's just condescending.

Condescending is your subjective opinion.

My statement implied no specific person lacked understanding.
And it is certainly no shame to lack understanding.
At some point I myself did not understand the basics and would have appreciated a post that condensed the understanding.

And, I may forget in the future, and then I would appreciate the post anew.


The closest thing to something new in your arguments is that you're throwing the term "NAP" around a lot, mostly incorrectly.
throwing "NAP" term around mostly incorrectly ?

I disagree, so if you care to identify any specifics to prove your claim
that could prove beneficial.
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dalebert

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2014, 10:03:56 PM »

I disagree, so if you care to identify any specifics to prove your claim that could prove beneficial.

I seriously doubt that since we've already discussed it. Meanwhile, you've pointedly ignored the elephant in the room several times now--

Tiny numbers of anarchists. Millions of big government proponents. How do you see anarchists as any sort of obstacle on the path to your fantasy version of government? We may as well start discussing how we plan to spend the millions that we might win in the lottery.

ReasonableVoice

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2014, 11:53:18 AM »

I disagree, so if you care to identify any specifics to prove your claim that could prove beneficial.

I seriously doubt that since we've already discussed it.
I take that "we've" means others in the past on this board.

And that you seriously doubt that you will discuss it with me because of some personal preference.

I accept that, but that leave your claim without merit.

 (The claim was regarding that I supposedly mostly incorrectly throw the NAP term around).



Meanwhile, you've pointedly ignored the elephant in the room several times now--

Tiny numbers of anarchists. Millions of big government proponents.

Not ignored, skipped.
Skipped because it is not on topic.

That said, I would address that topic by lumping
Liberty Lovers (not just anarchists) who are willing to take action into one group
and everyone else into another group.


I don't view that first group as "tiny".
Not plugging here, but Alex Jones has millions of Liberty Lover listeners
and I would guesstimate that a fairly large percentage of those
are willing to take action.


This is really just addressing numbers as compared between groups.
And comparative numbers are basically percentages.

and the percentage of the population that actually took the field in 1776 was not very large.

With that perspective, I don't see the elephant as anything more than a gnat.

Especially with the record gun sales (even admitted in the corporate run media).
 
Defensive violence is not outside of NAP :-0)
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dalebert

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2014, 02:07:41 PM »

throwing "NAP" term around mostly incorrectly ?

I disagree, so if you care to identify any specifics to prove your claim
that could prove beneficial.

No. Just us. Oh, dear. Every fiber of my being is saying "Don't do it! Don't take the bait!" but I'll bite and we'll see how ridiculous it starts getting.

You said the NAP doesn't apply to corporations for some reason. That can turn into a very complicated discussion because corporations as they exist are bizarre. They're government-created entities, the owners of which are granted a certain amount of immunity from responsibility for their actions, and that's bullshit. I don't see why anyone should get to be free of responsibility for their actions. That said, I have no problem with the basic idea which is people pooling some resources to make a large business operation possible. They have as much right to be free of aggression while working together voluntarily through an organization as they have as individuals.

ReasonableVoice

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2014, 04:28:05 PM »

throwing "NAP" term around mostly incorrectly ?

I disagree, so if you care to identify any specifics to prove your claim
that could prove beneficial.

No. Just us. Oh, dear. Every fiber of my being is saying "Don't do it! Don't take the bait!" but I'll bite and we'll see how ridiculous it starts getting.

You said the NAP doesn't apply to corporations for some reason.

Now I see why you thought something that I never said. Because I never said it.
Please do not read into things that are not there.

If I am mistaken (which I am not) please show me where I said that
"the NAP doesn't apply to corporations".

I believe you may be referencing where I said that corporations are not "natural" persons
and implied that the NAP does not not preclude taxing NON-persons(non-members of human society) for the opportunity to do business within the society.

The business opportunities in a free society belong to the natural persons that make up that society.
If a corporation (non-society member) wants to partake(not steal) some of that opportunity, it may be charged (taxed) by the society for such opportunity.
But taking such opportunity without making required payment of taxes(restitution to society) then THAT is theft(aggression).

And to be clear -- this is NOT saying that a "natural" person CAN be taxed under NAP.


They have as much right to be free of aggression while working together voluntarily through an organization as they have as individuals.
TRUE . . . BUT . . .
This next is where we might disagree . . .
A natural person is a member of a human society, a corporation is not.
Still, corporations do have right to be free from aggression(initiation of offensive force).
But when the corporation fails to pay the tax required for the opportunity to do business
that is theft(aggression) from the human society and the corporation does not have the right to be free from restitution(defensive force) for committing that aggression.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 04:30:36 PM by ReasonableVoice »
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ReasonableVoice

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2014, 04:47:41 PM »

I have no problem with the basic idea which is people pooling some resources to make a large business operation possible.
Followup for clarification as I didn't hit on this exact point.

Part of the responsibility of governance under NAP includes protection of the society at large.
Large organizations(or corporations) have been historically dangerous as evidenced by the times in which we currently live.

So that part of implementing NAP necessarily is placed into a balancing area . . .
balancing rights of an individual against the rights of a group.
This is one of the few balancing areas required within a NAP society.

Pollution is one example threat --
Pollution is a normal part of existence, but large corporations are known to pollute more than an individual or small group, etc.

I am not saying that ALL corporations would be taxed either,
just that it is justified to tax corporations which may pose substantial threats to society or communities within the society.

Regulating large corporations enough to keep the threat in check and prepare for providing remedy for damage caused - not significantly more than that.

If a corporation builds a nuclear device and it might detonate wiping out the entire corporation and many in society as well, a NAP governance should be designed to prevent(before) and remedy(after a threat becomes a reality)


And for large corporations that pose no threat and provide great benefit to the society at large,
"perhaps"(in limited circumstances) provide assistance.




You may not agree this fits NAP, but since it is a quite logical interpretation of NAP,
it can hardly be considered as "mostly incorrectly" throwing the NAP term around. :-0)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 05:09:39 PM by ReasonableVoice »
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alaric89

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Re: Liberty Lovers !!!! The idea of the State is NOT your enemy.
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2014, 05:03:10 PM »

On the Joe Rogan Experience with Peter Schiff, Joe hammered home that very point. Capitalisms track record is indeed less then steller on the enviroment. Even though strong governments record is a lot worse, I happen to know the government forced cleaner cars and cleaned up a lot of water bodies, I am old enough to remember smog and burning rivers. This is a tough one for a state hater. I think private trustees would grab up large tracks of land for parks, but I honestly think cars would still be spewing out CO1 without government mandate.
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