The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: anarchir on March 18, 2011, 03:10:30 PM
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http://coinworld.com/News/20110328/Bulletin720110328.aspx
He was found guilty of making counterfeit coins and an intent to defraud. Sentencing will be held in several months.
The jury reached its decision in less than 90 minutes.
:x
Wikipedia page has not been updated yet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar
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My God, that's pathetic!
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It doesn't even make sense. How in the hell could they be counterfeit? They look nothing like US dollars!
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ITS THE LAWWWWWWWWWWWWW
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It doesn't even make sense. How in the hell could they be counterfeit? They look nothing like US dollars!
That just means they're badly-done counterfeiting. They used dollar signs and certainly implied that they were valid U.S. currency. If I'm looking to use an alternate currency, I sure as Hell don't want a dollar sign on it. Seems to miss the point.
As an alternative currency product, Liberty Dollars suck ass. It's like they set out to make an alternative but didn't want to make it TOO much better than FRNs. The model seemed to appeal to the activist nature of people to want to train others to accept alternate currency in a manner that failed to take advantage of silver's ability to hedge against inflation. You know, probably the MAIN biggest reason to use alternate currency in the first place?
"We're going to put dollar signs on these so you can trick naive people into thinking they're legal currency and that will get people used to the idea alternate currencies after lots of these are in regular circulation. (And they had tips on how to deceive people without technically saying any outright lies.) Meanwhile, as FRNs get devalued, we'll take your Liberty Dollars and swap them out for coins with an upgraded FRN value (for a nice fee! Yum!)"
So all the while, they sell them at an insane markup over spot, and part of the justification was it might someday be necessary to make a lot of money to cover legal fees. So legal fees were supposedly built into the business model. Of course, they asked for donations when that time came-- selective memory.
All that said, I still didn't want them to lose. The proper "punishment" for their exploitative and deception-based racket would have been for them to ultimately fail in a free(r) market. I would have tried to spur a campaign of enlightenment and counter-propaganda. When someone tried to buy something from me with one, I'd offer them silver value plus a reasonable coinage rate for them, ignoring the dollar signs stamped on the coin (the bad counterfeiting). When they complain that they paid way more than that for it, I'd say "then you're a dumbass".
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Liberty dollars came and went before I got involved in silver, but here is another article with a scary quote:
http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20110319/NEWS01/110319006/Liberty-Dollar-fake-currency-creator-convicted-federal-court?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage
“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”
“We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government,” Tompkins said.
Non-violent terrorists. Like wikileaks.
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It doesn't even make sense. How in the hell could they be counterfeit? They look nothing like US dollars!
That just means they're badly-done counterfeiting. They used dollar signs and certainly implied that they were valid U.S. currency. If I'm looking to use an alternate currency, I sure as Hell don't want a dollar sign on it. Seems to miss the point.
As an alternative currency product, Liberty Dollars suck ass. It's like they set out to make an alternative but didn't want to make it TOO much better than FRNs. The model seemed to appeal to the activist nature of people to want to train others to accept alternate currency in a manner that failed to take advantage of silver's ability to hedge against inflation. You know, probably the MAIN biggest reason to use alternate currency in the first place?
"We're going to put dollar signs on these so you can trick naive people into thinking they're legal currency and that will get people used to the idea alternate currencies after lots of these are in regular circulation. (And they had tips on how to deceive people without technically saying any outright lies.) Meanwhile, as FRNs get devalued, we'll take your Liberty Dollars and swap them out for coins with an upgraded FRN value (for a nice fee! Yum!)"
So all the while, they sell them at an insane markup over spot, and part of the justification was it might someday be necessary to make a lot of money to cover legal fees. So legal fees were supposedly built into the business model. Of course, they asked for donations when that time came-- selective memory.
All that said, I still didn't want them to lose. The proper "punishment" for their exploitative and deception-based racket would have been for them to ultimately fail in a free(r) market. I would have tried to spur a campaign of enlightenment and counter-propaganda. When someone tried to buy something from me with one, I'd offer them silver value plus a reasonable coinage rate for them, ignoring the dollar signs stamped on the coin (the bad counterfeiting). When they complain that they paid way more than that for it, I'd say "then you're a dumbass".
I agree with you on everything here except for your first statement.
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So they are guilty of trading US currency for counterfeit us currency, even though the "counterfeit" currency is worth more than the face value of the "real" currency. and are other countries whom use their own version of dollars counterfeiting too?
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It doesn't even make sense. How in the hell could they be counterfeit? They look nothing like US dollars!
That just means they're badly-done counterfeiting. They used dollar signs and certainly implied that they were valid U.S. currency. If I'm looking to use an alternate currency, I sure as Hell don't want a dollar sign on it. Seems to miss the point.
As an alternative currency product, Liberty Dollars suck ass. It's like they set out to make an alternative but didn't want to make it TOO much better than FRNs. The model seemed to appeal to the activist nature of people to want to train others to accept alternate currency in a manner that failed to take advantage of silver's ability to hedge against inflation. You know, probably the MAIN biggest reason to use alternate currency in the first place?
"We're going to put dollar signs on these so you can trick naive people into thinking they're legal currency and that will get people used to the idea alternate currencies after lots of these are in regular circulation. (And they had tips on how to deceive people without technically saying any outright lies.) Meanwhile, as FRNs get devalued, we'll take your Liberty Dollars and swap them out for coins with an upgraded FRN value (for a nice fee! Yum!)"
So all the while, they sell them at an insane markup over spot, and part of the justification was it might someday be necessary to make a lot of money to cover legal fees. So legal fees were supposedly built into the business model. Of course, they asked for donations when that time came-- selective memory.
All that said, I still didn't want them to lose. The proper "punishment" for their exploitative and deception-based racket would have been for them to ultimately fail in a free(r) market. I would have tried to spur a campaign of enlightenment and counter-propaganda. When someone tried to buy something from me with one, I'd offer them silver value plus a reasonable coinage rate for them, ignoring the dollar signs stamped on the coin (the bad counterfeiting). When they complain that they paid way more than that for it, I'd say "then you're a dumbass".
By your logic the government has to go after Parker Brothers too.
Of course a product is more expensive then the raw materials that went into it.
Something is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it. Besides if the creators die as martyrs in prison, the original coins will probably be collectores items someday and have been a great investment to those who chose to hang on to them.
The way I see it, the private currencies are a little like sex toys in a marriage. The government could have chosen to work with the liberty dollar and accepted them and reaped the economic benefits... or it could do what it did- fight against a good thing and end up with a bored angry spouse who refuses to do anything.
I want a divorce.
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“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said.
Kinda like the pot calling the silverware black.
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Bastards...
This makes me wanna move back into a trailer in the woods and buy everything with Bitcoins.
:x :x :x
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Bastards...
This makes me wanna move back into a trailer in the woods and buy everything with Bitcoins.
:x :x :x
You moved out of your trailer in the woods?
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Yes, in September. Still living underground, but elsewhere. Except I paid the NJ DMV. Still not driving, but just decided to pick my battles. Major paradigm shift. I'm a lone wolf tax resister / libertarian badass now. Free Staters can kiss my ass. No one deserves my trust.
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Yes, in September. Still living underground, but elsewhere. Except I paid the NJ DMV. Still not driving, but just decided to pick my battles. Major paradigm shift. I'm a lone wolf tax resister / libertarian badass now. Free Staters can kiss my ass. No one deserves my trust.
Except me.
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Respect - possibly.
Trust - no.
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Respect - possibly.
Trust - no.
I want the copy of my house keys I gave to you back then.
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I want my wasted nerdy youth back, but I'd settle for getting this thread back the way it was before we hijacked it... :roll:
It's just that things like this make me very angry... Just when I'm about to convince myself to end the insanity, settle with the IRS, get a decent job, get a decent apartment (instead of a room I can pay for with cash and no paperwork), and limit my philosophical efforts to what little time I'll have left... save up some money for seasteading, etc... but then, WHAM!... This reminder that you can't win that way! Just like I was ready to quit a few years ago, but the FLDS crackdown pushed me deeper down the rabbit hole. They will change their own rules however they see fit, they will impose a world government to end all intergovernmental competition, etc, etc, etc... And the way it makes me feel is that I'd rather rot in prison... Even if I'll have no emotional support from anyone and the whole world will remember me a troll...
Anyway, latest headlines on Drudge:
- NC MAN CONVICTED FOR MAKING, SELLING OWN SILVER COINS... (http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/ce031811.htm) (WARNING: fbi.gov)
- FED GOV'T: 'Unique form of domestic terrorism'... (http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20110319/NEWS01/110319006/1001/news/Liberty-Dollar-fake-currency-creator-convicted-federal-court?odyssey=nav%7Chead) (as posted above)
- NC Lawmaker Calls For State Currency, Backed by Silver, Gold... (http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/03/17/1059132/legislator-says-the-state-needs.html)
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140525545953+
Liberty dollars are going for quite the premium now.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140525545953+
Liberty dollars are going for quite the premium now.
Careful, that's terrorism.
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I got one of the NH ones as soon as the guilty verdict came. $44 shipped.
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It doesn't even make sense. How in the hell could they be counterfeit? They look nothing like US dollars!
That just means they're badly-done counterfeiting. They used dollar signs and certainly implied that they were valid U.S. currency. If I'm looking to use an alternate currency, I sure as Hell don't want a dollar sign on it. Seems to miss the point.
As an alternative currency product, Liberty Dollars suck ass. It's like they set out to make an alternative but didn't want to make it TOO much better than FRNs. The model seemed to appeal to the activist nature of people to want to train others to accept alternate currency in a manner that failed to take advantage of silver's ability to hedge against inflation. You know, probably the MAIN biggest reason to use alternate currency in the first place?
"We're going to put dollar signs on these so you can trick naive people into thinking they're legal currency and that will get people used to the idea alternate currencies after lots of these are in regular circulation. (And they had tips on how to deceive people without technically saying any outright lies.) Meanwhile, as FRNs get devalued, we'll take your Liberty Dollars and swap them out for coins with an upgraded FRN value (for a nice fee! Yum!)"
So all the while, they sell them at an insane markup over spot, and part of the justification was it might someday be necessary to make a lot of money to cover legal fees. So legal fees were supposedly built into the business model. Of course, they asked for donations when that time came-- selective memory.
All that said, I still didn't want them to lose. The proper "punishment" for their exploitative and deception-based racket would have been for them to ultimately fail in a free(r) market. I would have tried to spur a campaign of enlightenment and counter-propaganda. When someone tried to buy something from me with one, I'd offer them silver value plus a reasonable coinage rate for them, ignoring the dollar signs stamped on the coin (the bad counterfeiting). When they complain that they paid way more than that for it, I'd say "then you're a dumbass".
I agree, the worst part is that anything deemed "liberty" friendly used to cost 800000000 times more than the same product not deemed "liberty" friendly. I'm thinking especially of MRE's, seeds, silver, gold etc. But hey, if there are enough dumbass so called libertarians out there who'll pay through the nose for shit, then, hey, fuck them, it's their own fault for being so stupid. I have no doubt that if there had been another "liberty" dollar competing directly with Von Nuthouses currency then Von Nuthouse would have thrown his rattle out of the crib and gone and cried to mommy government. Lately there has been some competition with stuff and prices have come down, not that I would buy, for some reason I have always found liberty stuff sold by liberty people to be shit, porcfest and products in the NH free state being the exception to that, as well as the mises institute, they gots dem some good books.
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According to their own wording of the "law", anybody who actually bought the Liberty Dollars are also susceptible to being charged with counterfeiting...or terrorism, or whatever else they can trump up.
This is a disgusting fucking nation these days. Folks need to seriously wake up and clean house.
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I got one of the NH ones as soon as the guilty verdict came. $44 shipped.
Bonerjoe you are an epic entrepreneur. I wish I knew when to think ahead like you do. Hopefully experience will bring that wisdom.
Edit: Just checked ebay, the cheapest one is $10 premium over spot.
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Free Staters can kiss my ass. No one deserves my trust.
Good attitude. Anyone who learns your real name - kill them. And make sure you only have sex with bind prostitutes so they won't be able to identify you. The Man is unbelievably resourceful. His agents are everywhere, even in your coffee mugs.
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I do not endorse this thread hijacking.
And everyone already knows my real name.
Although being asexual and only drinking water is a good idea anyhow. :roll:
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http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/apr/03/bogus-coins-bullion-seized-in-cda-become-focus-of/
More news on it, but lets count the number of times this article shows its bias:
“We never refer to the American Liberty as a coin,” von NotHaus told The Spokesman-Review in 1999. “The word ‘coin’ is a government-controlled term. This is currency that is free from government control.”
In 2004, von NotHaus sold his coins and anti-Federal Reserve philosophy at the anti-government We the People organization’s first convention. The following year, the FBI and Secret Service opened an investigation of von NotHaus and his operation.
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http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/apr/03/bogus-coins-bullion-seized-in-cda-become-focus-of/
More news on it, but lets count the number of times this article shows its bias:
“We never refer to the American Liberty as a coin,” von NotHaus told The Spokesman-Review in 1999. “The word ‘coin’ is a government-controlled term. This is currency that is free from government control.”
In 2004, von NotHaus sold his coins and anti-Federal Reserve philosophy at the anti-government We the People organization’s first convention. The following year, the FBI and Secret Service opened an investigation of von NotHaus and his operation.
I got sick of reading the libel.
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Hmmm. I didnt realize that they were distributing signs like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200584816919+
That would certainly lead me to believe that it was a government issued currency.
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Hmmm. I didnt realize that they were distributing signs like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200584816919+
That would certainly lead me to believe that it was a government issued currency.
Really? With "REDEEMABLE BY DEALER ON DEMAND" being more readable than the engraved cursive?
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This is a strange story just out.....
Secret Service demands ebay remove all Norfed Liberty dollars as counterfeits
The United States Secret Service has requested the removal of all Norfed Liberty dollars on the eBay site as counterfeits.
http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?40246-Secret-Service-demands-ebay-remove-all-Norfed-Liberty-dollars-as-counterfeits (http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?40246-Secret-Service-demands-ebay-remove-all-Norfed-Liberty-dollars-as-counterfeits)
Basically, like the Liberty Dollar itself, it makes the feds look bad. Must censor.
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Isnt $ a generic symbol for money, where the double strike-through denotes U.S. currency?
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Why would Liberty Dollar put "USA" on their coins?
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You can't call it money. You can't even call it a coin. You can buy, sell, and trade "rounds" of silver and lots of people do. It's when you try to pass it off as an official currency that you have a problem. Liberty Dollar had a marketing plan that involved convincing a lot of ignorant people that it was an official currency. The markup on it was obscene. Libertarians were into it for making a statement about alternate currencies but most people are not going to value a silver round at the face value of a liberty dollar unless you convince them that "suggested retail value" is somehow an official thing and that people are required to accept it like they are U.S. currency.
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Dale is absolutely right. In the U.S. a "coin" is government money. Round is a shape, could be metallic.
Kind of like how head shops dont like the word "bong" but "water pipe" is just fine.