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Author Topic: Jury Nullification  (Read 3508 times)

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Fred

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Jury Nullification
« on: September 26, 2011, 07:49:43 PM »

Almost all people charged with crimes now are faced with multiple charges (so many laws - no one even knows what's legal anymore) that allows the prosecutor to offer a "deal" Take what we're offering you not to got to trial.

Example: $1000 fine and 6 months probation compared with going to trial and (with all the charges [bullshit laws]) face a possible 7 years in jail with a $50,000.00 fine.

This causes almost no one (I think the statistics are around 1% of people facing charges) to decide to go to  trial. They take the "deal". This makes it pretty easy for prosecutors and the state in general to keep rolling through poor folks and taking their money for the "crimes" - which are usually victimless.
...
Jury nullification is the truth about our power as people serving on juries.

The jury (and 100 years ago the judge told the jury this) has the option if they think the law the person is charged with is not fair - (example 5 years in jail for growing pot) they can find the person innocent. This is a right we've always had that allows the public to check "govt power". Just so you know....
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 07:51:26 PM by Fred »
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 08:27:53 PM »

Yup.

Y'all gonna hate me for this, but I am a big fan of leverage. I like concepts that take the smallest amount of exertion to yield the greatest amount of force.

Thats why I think freedom lovers should go out of their way to serve in as many juries as possible. It would totally upend a lot of the criminally unjust system we have today.
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Fred

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2011, 09:03:01 PM »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4KoXbsPX7I&feature=related[/youtube]
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2011, 11:15:23 PM »

Most people don't take the jury trial because they can't afford the lawyers fees.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 03:16:56 AM »

Most people don't take the jury trial because they can't afford the lawyers fees.

I agree that people might challenge bullshit cases by going to trial more often if fees were more affordable.  Too bad there's no free market for professional legal services. 

I've had a couple pretty good lawyers inform me it would be more sensible to take the plea. 

And they weren't "bullshit cases".  Some of them involved doing real time. 

One of those lawyers, I knew since I was five.  But they still gotta get paid. 

And doing the whole "jury" thing is pretty expensive. 

So they use their clout to say "heres a pretty decent white guy I've known a long while, and he has relatively no criminal past."  And they pleabargain it down to minimum, and everybody shakes hands and walks away.  And the lawyer slaps you on the back and says "you got off lucky", meanwhile knowing he might have to pay for that favor one day, representing some guy who happens to be on the losing side of a better crony. 

When in a jury, maybe you'd have been found not guilty - period.  And it wouldn't have been incumbent upon who knows whom, and who owes who favors.

Thats not exactly justice.  Thats intimidation and a lack of funds to execute the whole process to its fullest within a sterile and impartial environment.

I know I wouldn't expect my whole "right to legal council" court-appointed defense to be as ...  viciously protective ?  as I would a million-dollar lawyer.  And if thats what passes for "blind justice" in our supposedly equal system, I think it's pretty fuckin' wack.









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sillyperson

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 07:25:57 AM »

http://www.nhliberty.org/bills/view/2011/HB146

This bill has passed the NH House and is now in the Senate, where I'd say it has a 50% chance of passage.
When we get ~3 more liberty-friendly Senators, this bill will become law, if it hasn't by then.

Quote
519:23-a Right of Accused. In all court proceedings the court shall instruct the jury of its right to judge the facts and the application of the law in relationship to the facts in controversy. The court shall permit the defendant or counsel for the defendant to explain this right to the jury.

LoveFreedomAndLiberty

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 09:08:33 AM »

Who can keep up with the laws......there are so many already and more on the way.  An average person is expected ("ignorance of the law is no excuse") to know every law on the books.  If you travel, you are expected to know every law on every state's books that you travel to/through to ensure you break none.  Do I dare guess that many attorneys and judges do not know all of the laws on the books?

A jury does not guarantee justice, truth, or sense will prevail either, sadly (in my opinion). However, jury nullification is very important, and I am so glad you raised the topic for discussion.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 09:22:09 AM by LoveFreedomAndLiberty »
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blackie

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 09:20:05 AM »

Does it count if a jury lets a cop get away with shit?

Seems like jury nullification is a two way street. It could be good, or it could be bad.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2011, 11:46:38 PM »

Does it count if a jury lets a cop get away with shit?

Seems like jury nullification is a two way street. It could be good, or it could be bad.

Well, thats already happening.
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SeanD

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 02:13:36 AM »

http://www.nhliberty.org/bills/view/2011/HB146

This bill has passed the NH House and is now in the Senate, where I'd say it has a 50% chance of passage.
When we get ~3 more liberty-friendly Senators, this bill will become law, if it hasn't by then.

Quote
519:23-a Right of Accused. In all court proceedings the court shall instruct the jury of its right to judge the facts and the application of the law in relationship to the facts in controversy. The court shall permit the defendant or counsel for the defendant to explain this right to the jury.

Heh Heh who can make judges enforce it?  You have seen how they reacted to the Circuit Court ruling on filming.  They ignored it.
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sillyperson

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 11:13:54 AM »

You have seen how they reacted to the Circuit Court ruling on filming.  They ignored it.
That was because it was not legally binding on them. An RSA would be. It's useful to know why the NH Legislature is called the 'General Court'

The NH legislature creates the courts. It has complete power over them, including the power to completely abolish them. It has done so twice so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire_Constitution#The_General_Court
Articles 2 - 8 establish the frame work for the General Court and its authority to establish courts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire_General_Court
The General Court of New Hampshire is the bicameral state legislature of the U.S. state of New Hampshire

Highline

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 11:52:51 AM »

Heh Heh who can make judges enforce it?  You have seen how they reacted to the Circuit Court ruling on filming.  They ignored it.

I disagree that legally speaking they are ignoring the Glik case.  

The Glik case can be compared to the Heller v. DC case.  It expands rights in some situations...  but not all.  To say that Glik automatically overrules court rules in NH, ME, RI, and PR because of the decision would be like saying the intent of Heller was to immediately authorize the permitless carry of firearms in public in DC.  In both cases that is not what the court was saying.

I believe that the courts are flagrantly ignoring the 1st and 2nd Amendment in both cases but in legal reality land you need to understand the system and intent of these rulings.

That was because it was not legally binding on them. An RSA would be. It's useful to know why the NH Legislature is called the 'General Court'


Denis is correct about it not being legally binding on them for the aforementioned reasons.  I do disagree however that an RSA from the NH General Court would be legally binding on the courts insofar as it pertains to judicial function.  Article 73-A and State v. LaFrance are pretty clear that the judicial branch can ignore laws passed that conflict with court rules.

The only way to reverse the camera ban in New Hampshire is to either repeal Article 73-A OR get Glik expanded through litigation in the federal district court.  I think the Glik case has little chance of success to expand the recording rights to lobbies and clerks offices, but I think it has ZERO chance of being expanded to courtrooms.  The federal judiciary is hugely anti-camera...  and for them to impose a decision on themselves which will reverse their own anti-camera rules just defies common sense.

I think also the only way to get a jury nullification bill will be to repeal Article 73-A as well...  as I wouldn't put it past the Supreme Court to institute a rule which defies the nullification bill on the grounds that it infringes on the judiciary's ability to dispense "justice" fairly.

............ says the non lawyer Brad.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 11:56:59 AM by Highline »
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Highline

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2011, 11:59:56 AM »

Who can keep up with the laws......there are so many already and more on the way.

I've read the entirety of the New Hampshire RSA's, a majority of the US Code, and all of the federal rules of criminal/civil procedure.   :P
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LoveFreedomAndLiberty

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2011, 01:23:02 PM »

Who can keep up with the laws......there are so many already and more on the way.

I've read the entirety of the New Hampshire RSA's, a majority of the US Code, and all of the federal rules of criminal/civil procedure.   :P

I can't keep up with them all.....no matter how much I read. 

So, in an effort to educate myself, instead of asking you the question that I assume would have a very long reply, What is against the law, I will ask you the question with what I assume has a shorter answer.......  What isn't against the law?  Breathing and working (for now)......but what else?  What current issue does not have a law governing it?
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One two three

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2012, 04:13:42 PM »

The 2011 bill, HB 146 finally passed in the NH Senate today by a vote of 15 to 9. Great work everyone, we did it!

On 1/12/2012, the Senate Committee voted Ought to Pass with Amendment.
On 1/18/2012, the Senate voted Ought to Pass with Amendment 15 to 9. Unfortunately, it didn't pass the Senate by enough votes to override a veto.

Union Leader article about the bill,

Ward Bird case brings revised law
Staff Report
Published Jan 19, 2012 at 3:00 am (Updated Jan 18, 2012)
http://www.unionleader.com/article/2...WS06/701199989
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