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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Ghost of Alex Libman on May 05, 2009, 05:00:08 PM

Title: Jews and Communism
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on May 05, 2009, 05:00:08 PM
(Forked from a "Fear of Death in Different Cultures (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29101.msg540221#msg540221)" thread, where conversation has touched upon the Jewish culture and its role in the Soviet revolution.)


A quote from an "anti-semitic" Web-site (http://wake-up-america.net/jews_and_communism.htm):

Quote
In pre-WW1 Germany the Socialist Party, the SPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany), was founded by the Jew Ferdinand Lasalle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Lasalle).  The Jews Eduard Bernstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Bernstein) and Otto Landsberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Landsberg) were prominent leaders, its leading journalists were Jews as were its Socialist theorists Adolf Braun and Simon Katzenstein.

In the first government of Communist Russia there were only 13 ethnic Russian Commissars and more than 300 Jewish Commissars out of a total of 384 Commissars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissar).  The billionaire New York Jew Jacob Schiff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Schiff) was the revolution's chief financier.  Jews were 1.7% of the population of Russia.

Of the 6 members of Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin)'s first Politburo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo), three were Jews, Trotsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky), Kamenev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Kamenev), and Zinoviev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Zinoviev).

The Jews had their own Jewish section of the Communist Party, the Evsektsiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevsektsiya).

In 1919 when a Communist government was established in Hungary four of the five members of the directorate were Jews.

In Eastern Europe Jewish Communists provided the Soviet Union with leadership in East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Hungary.  The Jew Bela Kun established the Hungarian Communist Party in 1919 and Jews predominated in the leadership.  Out of 26 ministers and vice-ministers 20 were Jews.  Kun was overthrown by French backed Rumanian forces after 100 days.  Kun's sucessor, the Jew Matyas Rakosi was a mass murderer [...].   The Jewish Telegraph Agency of May 14, 1997, said the Jews "...played key roles in ushering Communist rule into Hungary. In fact, during the brutal oppression of the early 1950s, the regime's top five leaders were Jews."

In Czechoslovakia an estimated 20,000 Jews out of an original several hundred thousand survived the Nazi occupation and death camps.  Yet Jews were the major force in the Communist Party rule.  The Jew Rudolph Slansky was secretary general of the party and Jews ran the ministries of foreign affairs, foreign trade, state planning and propaganda.   

In Hungary Jews headed the ministries of state planning, industry and commerce and Radio Hungary.  The Jew Mathias Rakosi was the head of the Communist Party, General Peter Gabor commanded the secret police, Joseph Reval was minister of culture and the regimes chief propagandist.  

Between 7,000 to 10,000 Jews served in Joseph Stalin's "International Brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brigades)" of 40,000 volunteers which fought against Franco's forces in Spain.  A third of them were American Jews.

Jewish control of Communism was lessened in The Great Terror, Stalin's 1930's purges.  Of the 10 million killed in the purges approximately 500,000 were Jews and made up a majority of the politically prominent of those who were executed.  Stalin was planning another purge of Jews with plans for sending a considerable number to Siberia but he died before the plan was put into action.

At least eighteen generals in the Yugoslav Communist People's Army were Jewish.  Approximately 75% of the officers of the Communist Secret Police in Polish Silesia were Jews.

The three communist leaders who dominated Poland between 1948 and 1956, Jacob Berman, Boleslaw Bierut, Hilary Minc, were Jews.  Boleslaw Bierut had four villas and the use of five more.

Please debunk one by one.  No ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attacks allowed.  Also, this thread isn't for discussing the relevance of the Jews' involvement in communism, just the facts.

This ought to keep Demosthenes & Co busy for the next couple of years, eh?  :lol:

Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on May 05, 2009, 06:06:47 PM
Yeah take a look at that website.  Serious stuff huh.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on May 05, 2009, 06:08:55 PM
Hath not a Jew eyes?


No ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attacks allowed.


:roll:
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: davann on May 05, 2009, 06:43:51 PM
Hath not a Jew eyes?


No ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attacks allowed.


:roll:

More like: if you prick us, do we not bleed?
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on May 05, 2009, 07:05:39 PM
Jews and communists and pricks, oh my...

This thread can only handle two of those.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on May 05, 2009, 07:51:26 PM
All of them were white too.  Guess all white people are Communists.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on May 05, 2009, 08:28:47 PM
Predictable Zionist is predictable.  :roll:

Also, this thread isn't for discussing the relevance of the Jews' involvement in communism, just the facts.

This thread is about addressing those specific claims regarding the disproportionate involvement of individuals of Jewish cultural heritage / ethnicity in Communism.  Rough approximations of their skin color are irrelevant.


Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on May 05, 2009, 08:42:01 PM
You're an idiot Alex.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on May 05, 2009, 08:48:46 PM
I take it you're not going to attempt to challenge the facts that I've quoted from that "Anti-Semitic" Web-site?

If that's the case, OK, my point in challenging your original assertion about the value of life in Jewish culture (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29101.msg540221#msg540221) has been successful.

If not, please use this thread to make your points.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on May 05, 2009, 10:24:21 PM
Predictable Zionist is predictable.  :roll:

Also, this thread isn't for discussing the relevance of the Jews' involvement in communism, just the facts.



Redundant joke is redundant.


Redundant joke is redundant.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on May 06, 2009, 08:08:33 AM
so alex, does that mean you're a dirty Commie?
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Ghost of Alex Libman on May 06, 2009, 09:02:07 AM
Oh, why do I even bother... 

This thread, and the one it's forked from, generalize about typical cultural attributes.

Correlation does not imply causation.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: mrbone on May 06, 2009, 10:40:18 PM
The anti-semites like to go overboard with "finding the Jew", sort of like Alex Jones seeing NWO agents under every rock. But there is a kernel of truth to the Communism arguments.

The Reform Judaism movement had as its goal assimilation with the local culture while retaining the important parts of Jewish religion, whereas before then Jews largely lived very seperate from society. Their pre-19th century lifestyle reminds me of the Amish in many ways, though not as extreme. This assimiliation aproach of the Reform movement was successful in Lithuania(?) until Czarist Russia conquered the territory. The Czar was extremely cruel to the Jews, as bad or worse than any other dictator who attacked Jews in prior history. This disillussioned many Reform Jews. Part of the reason for the assimilation was to become more welcomed by host populations, and instead they got worse cruelty than before. This gave Reform Jews in Russia an incentive to rebel against not only the government but also the local culture. And replace it with what? The experience also had a second affect: dissillusionment with traditional Jewish thought in general, leaving an intellectual vacuum that was ripe to be filled with all kinds of crazy ideologies, including Communism. These two factors coming together led to Jews having a disproportionate impact on waging revolution against the Czar and pushing communism as its replacement. This is basic non-controversial history. You can hear similar sentiments from Jewish talkshow host Michael Medved or from rabbi lectures on history/ (I recommend the Rabbi Ken Spiro series on Jewish history from an Orthodox perspective. He covers the things i describe above very well.)

Like most revolutions, there were a variety of factors in play with each faction having its own motivation for their own self interest. Russia had the largest Jewish population in the world. They went from being prosperous, upstanding members of society to destitute slaves under the Czar. Go read up on how the Czar treated them. Then is it any surprise that they would work to overthrow the Czar? And is it any surprise that the Jews that did get into post-Czar seats of power in Russia abused the power? The point lost on many anti-semites (especially the socialist varieties that praise big government): those Jews who did gain political power wielded it pretty much the way everyone wields political power: evilly. Power corrupts everyone.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on May 06, 2009, 11:11:47 PM
We just had an argument at my Yeshiva yesterday as to what type of economy the Torah espouses, and what type of politics. Its clear after I argued with my Rabbi that the Torah cannot be pro socialist, libertarian, conservative, or liberal. Whats more, of the guys in my yeshiva, the libertarians outnumber the liberals by a margin of 4:1. Its all personal choice really.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on May 09, 2009, 01:33:59 AM
[...]  Whats more, of the guys in my yeshiva, the libertarians outnumber the liberals by a margin of 4:1.

Wow...  Given the typical Jewish voting trends (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html), there has so be selection bias of some sort... 

Is your yeshiva special in some way?  :?
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on May 09, 2009, 03:00:45 AM
[...]  Whats more, of the guys in my yeshiva, the libertarians outnumber the liberals by a margin of 4:1.

Wow...  Given the typical Jewish voting trends (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html), there has so be selection bias of some sort... 

Is your yeshiva special in some way?  :?

Seems to me I know a number of libertarian/conservatarian Jews as well.  Although to be fair I know many democrat voting Jews who don't even know why they vote Democrat.  Just like the rest of the US population.

My assessment is that most Jews are socially liberal and so they vote for the candidate they percieve to be most socially liberal.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on May 09, 2009, 03:07:21 AM
Please debunk one by one.

(http://wiki.freetalklive.com/images/6/66/Listening.jpg)
There's nothing to debunk.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Diogenes The Cynic on May 09, 2009, 11:16:03 PM
[...]  Whats more, of the guys in my yeshiva, the libertarians outnumber the liberals by a margin of 4:1.

Wow...  Given the typical Jewish voting trends (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html), there has so be selection bias of some sort... 

Is your yeshiva special in some way?  :?


It is a biased sample. Religious Jews are FAR more likely to be conservative or libertarian then unreligious Jews.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 08, 2009, 01:20:12 AM
Please debunk one by one.

(http://wiki.freetalklive.com/images/6/66/Listening.jpg)

I feel so... undebunked...   :(
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: atomiccat on June 08, 2009, 02:05:34 AM
damn comie Jews, they make people gay and have a international league of super gay Jews, I wonder if the Jews made Some animals gay  and what about them lesbians? did the Jews do that too?
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on June 08, 2009, 02:58:47 AM
This thread isn't for making broad accusations against an entire ethnic / religious group.  It's for discussing a specific historical social trend: the tendency to support Communism and become actively involved in its leadership among the individuals of the Jewish heritage in the early 20th century.

Individuals are responsible for their actions, not whatever group they happen to be born into.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on June 08, 2009, 04:37:55 AM
This thread isn't for making broad accusations against an entire ethnic / religious group.  It's for discussing a specific historical social trend: the tendency to support Communism and become actively involved in its leadership among the individuals of the Jewish heritage in the early 20th century.

Individuals are responsible for their actions, not whatever group they happen to be born into.

I'm a commie Jew.  I've come out and I'm admitting it.  Stalin was the awesome.  All Jewish folks agree with me, the pogroms agains the Jews are just propaganda by capitalist pig dogs.  Communist Russia did not mass murder Jews.  Anti-religion official Communist policies are a sham conspiracy spread by the Jewish Lizard Men who turn people gay and make capitalists turn Commie.

 :?
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Euler on June 08, 2009, 06:01:24 PM
I don't have a reason but it seems that Jews are pretty politically involved or active.  It's true that many  communists/Communists are/were Jewish.  A significant minority are neocons although 50% of neocons may be non-Jews.  A smaller minority but still significant number of Jews are classical liberals/libertarians/anarchists.  Rand, Rothbard, all three Friedmans, Block, Branden, Mises, etc.  The anti-semite who sees Jews involved disproportionately in Communism is making an error by neglecting their involvement in other political movements.  
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Andy on June 08, 2009, 10:40:18 PM
Find out what the source for that site is and I'll think about checking it.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Cowcidile on June 09, 2009, 01:39:34 AM
Everyone already knows that jews are born sneaky and evil, I once heard a story of a jew that was separated from it's parents and raised by wolves, When the jew was rescued by a british explorer and brought back to the british isles the entire country fell apart. TRUE STORY
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 30, 2009, 06:29:15 AM
Please debunk one by one.

(http://wiki.freetalklive.com/images/6/66/Listening.jpg)

I feel so... undebunked...   :(


bump?   :?
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: NightFlight on September 30, 2009, 11:36:34 AM
Did Jacob Schiff get his money back?
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on October 05, 2009, 05:14:17 PM
Please debunk one by one.

(http://wiki.freetalklive.com/images/6/66/Listening.jpg)

I feel so... undebunked...   :(

bump?   :?

Did Jacob Schiff get his money back?


He [WP] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Schiff) made a good deal of money on some investments, while others were ideologically-driven purchases on which he intended to lose money in exchange for something else.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on October 26, 2009, 05:51:53 AM
Somehow I never came across this until now -- Why Socialism? (http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm) by Albert Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Albert_Einstein) --  :x :x :x


I'm so pissed about this I can't sleep!


Man, the correlation just keeps getting more and more disgusting.  Sure, there are a handful of "good Jews", but most of them (ex. Rand, Rothbard, David Friedman, etc) were really atheists...  The list of famous Jews who were socialists dwarfs it by several orders of magnitude!

That isn't to say that there's some sort of genetic or supernatural causation, but rather natural selection.  The same phenomenon that worked in the Jewish population's favor from 70 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29) until around the 18th or 19th century has then backfired, and the people who remain Jews are not the smartest of their population but the most collectivist, emotionally manipulative, and intellectually dishonest - the hallmark of what makes one a socialist!
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: NHArticleTen on October 26, 2009, 06:23:54 AM
Somehow I never came across this until now -- Why Socialism? (http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm) by Albert Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Albert_Einstein) --  :x :x :x


I'm so pissed about this I can't sleep!


Man, the correlation just keeps getting more and more disgusting.  Sure, there are a handful of "good Jews", but most of them (ex. Rand, Rothbard, David Friedman, etc) were really atheists...  The list of famous Jews who were socialists dwarfs it by several orders of magnitude!

That isn't to say that there's some sort of genetic or supernatural causation, but rather natural selection.  The same phenomenon that worked in the Jewish population's favor from 70 AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29) until around the 18th or 19th century has then backfired, and the people who remain Jews are not the smartest of their population but the most collectivist, emotionally manipulative, and intellectually dishonest - the hallmark of what makes one a socialist!


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm


read it...

it's doubtful that it could ever be decisively and conclusively linked, word for word, to Einstein

and even if it could be, there still exist the basic flaws inherent in such screeds

those flaws, and the screeds of those who screech them...fail, Fail, FAIL...

no need to copy/cut/paste/masterbate/etc over any of it

reading Starving The Monkeys will suffice

http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/

http://voluntaryist.com

enjoy!

.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: mikehz on October 26, 2009, 11:58:18 AM
Einstein probably favored socialism. It was all the rage at the time. Don't fall into the fallacy that expertize in one field automatically slops over into other fields.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on January 10, 2010, 09:16:26 AM
Is there a single living Jew in this world who is not a socialist asshole?  (And I do mean a self-identifying Jew, excluding people like myself, Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, and so on.)

My quest to find some continues to be futile, and the list of potential candidates just went down by 1:

[...]  I am seriously considering joining the Navy Medical Corps  [...]

Wow...  :x
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 10, 2010, 09:31:46 AM
How am I a socialist?  Asshole maybe, especially to you, but socialist?  Hell no.
Title: Re: Jews and Communism
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on January 10, 2010, 09:52:38 AM
It matters not what a person claims to be - I can claim to be a flying elephant typing with my trunk.  What matters is what you do.  You join the Navy Medical Corps, you're a socialist, pure and simple.