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Author Topic: Jesus promoted Anarchism  (Read 12100 times)

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lucidhawk

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Jesus promoted Anarchism
« on: March 30, 2011, 12:43:29 PM »

I typed this for Christians to think about or rebuttal. (*Not originally typed for FTL boards.)

As you should already know God promoted Anarchism in the Old Testament.

“In those days there was no king in Israel. As for everybody, what was right in his own eyes he was accustomed to do." (Judges 17:6, 21:25)

Later..

1 Samuel 8:5-18 :

5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

 10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

Jesus also Promoted Anarchism

What did Jesus emphasize?
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged" "So in everything, do unto others what you would have them do unto you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." -Matthew 7:12.
 ..So here and many other spots in the New Testament we can conclude it's only OK to judge when we are willing to be judged by the same standard. And more than that we should act in a way that we believe others should act toward us.
 
Nobody desires new regulations and laws to prevent or enforce themselves to act a certain way, unless they are deranged. People want rulers and laws to enforce how others behave.
 
Would you have others to come into your house and enforce their morality on you and take you away with guns? And would you say it's OK for you to go into other people's houses with guns and take them to jail because they are not obeying your morality? How is it virtuous for you to do this or to ask others to do it for you?
 
Does this mean it's wrong for everyone to believe in laws? No, it just means only to endorse those that you would have enforced against you. Some Christians have found that if they think critically about this principle they would not endorse laws to be enforced on themselves. They would rather learn responsibility on their own through church and family and to be judged by their God.
 
What about persons in society who choose to do things like murder but would ask to be treated as if nothing happened? Well think about it.. This is not a problem with "Golden rule politics"/"Christian Anarchism". These people who murder have rendered their own endorsement of policy or ethics that others should follow logically, morally and socially invalid. Because "they ask to be left alone" but they themselves don't care to leave others alone: they murder.
 
I don't think it's unfair to say the average person who does not murder, would in their own theoretical minds have themselves punished for murdering an innocent person. The person's after the fact mad rush away in fear wouldn't count as part of that theoretical model because they have then through murder rendered their 'after the fact' now weak or nonexistent endorsement of punishment logically, morally and socially invalid.
 
Only the fringe of the fringe would enforce (do unto) laws and statist punishments unto themselves, so don't ask that they be enforced on others..
The only political philosophies which are in line with the golden rule are essentially those which promote the nonaggression principle (Libertarianism, Voluntaryism)

Endorsing total freedom does not mean that you believe its morally right for people to "sin" or even that it's OK to "sin". Its sad to me how many Christians believe in a collective morality. (e.g. : "It's wrong to legalize prostitution because prostitution is morally wrong.") Anarchism just means you don't hold up one man or group of others to enforce another group of others to act good. And you don't hand off dispute resolution, protection and crime prosecution to a group which claims to to be the singular ultimate authority over others (Within a given land mass called a "state").
 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 08:09:27 PM by lucidhawk »
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"The arguments that were used to perpetuate slavery are identical to the arguments that are used to perpetuate the existence of the state."

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 09:18:38 PM »

I hate to break this to you (and I'm not really trolling you, even though it's going to seem like it) but if Jesus was promoting anarchism, he wouldn't have been selling "God the father," who we must obey.

Really, I don't have anything much against Christians, but truth in advertising is important amongst libertarians.
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lucidhawk

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 03:20:46 AM »

If someone views their father and/or their "heavenly father" as someone to be obeyed this doesn't actually say anything about human rulers.
But I certainly understand where you're coming from on that. It's all too easy for the lines to be blurred.

But lets face it many Christians will not think to question government legitimacy when they are mixed up in government intertwined mainstream protestantism. Nor will they ever convert to a reason only based moral system.
They will continue to believe in the Bible no matter what..

So I think it's a good idea for freedom lovers to encourage Christians to have a revaluation of government role based on what the Bible says. Because IMO it's pretty clear that "God" does not want people to have rulers human rulers.

I like even the atheist Stefan Molyneux type no-nonsense secular ethics from the ground up approach; but there is just no way religious zealots are ever going to take Voluntaryism seriously unless they can see it as consistent with their religion.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 03:23:14 AM by lucidhawk »
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 11:57:45 AM »

If you must obey him, how is he not a ruler?  If you have a ruler, how are you anarchist?
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 03:50:08 PM »

If you must obey him, how is he not a ruler?  If you have a ruler, how are you anarchist?


No no, you dont HAVE to obey him. Just if you dont, you're gonna spend eternity in fire and brimstone and gnashing of teeth disolving your bone marrow into a putrid black slime.

Kinda like the IRS tells you "no, you dont have to pay taxes. It's not REQUIRED, just be prepared for the consequences if you dont. The consequences WE impose on you."
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Alex Libman

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 06:16:49 PM »

We can play a fun little game.  You pick any possible position you can think of -- like "James T. Kirk is better than Malcolm Reynolds" -- and I can twist the biblical gibberish to support it.
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lucidhawk

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 07:13:19 PM »

If you must obey him, how is he not a ruler?  If you have a ruler, how are you anarchist?

True many people consider atheism a part of anarchism..  
But everyone has rules for themselves in some fashion and if you write down these rules you are following a book.

So is a book your ruler? And isn't following Christianity essentially just following a book and/or how you perceive your world and "morality" in "light" of the book?

Because if Yahweh actually talks to someone and forces them to do things (with threats like a ruler).
Then that person should take it very seriously and find out what's going on; like maybe go to get brain scans.  :P




« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 07:15:15 PM by lucidhawk »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 11:44:24 PM »

If you must obey him, how is he not a ruler?  If you have a ruler, how are you anarchist?

True many people consider atheism a part of anarchism..  
But everyone has rules for themselves in some fashion and if you write down these rules you are following a book.

So is a book your ruler? And isn't following Christianity essentially just following a book and/or how you perceive your world and "morality" in "light" of the book?

Because if Yahweh actually talks to someone and forces them to do things (with threats like a ruler).
Then that person should take it very seriously and find out what's going on; like maybe go to get brain scans.  :P


HUGE difference between writing down rules for yourself to follow and taking a book written by someone else and following it.  You would have to be insane to do that, at least a little. Really, what are the odds that you could take any book of rules, written by another person and decide for yourself "Hey, you know what? Those rules are EXACTLY the same as the ones I would have picked out for myself"

It would never happen if you were being truly 100% honest with yourself.
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Amazing Richard

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 12:05:19 AM »

This thread is total bullshit. It is even worse than feminist rhetoric. COMPLETE BULLSHIT!

To make it even more bullshit, the OP sticks this in the hi-jack free zone.

This must be one of Gene's Christian Anarchist buddies.

Sickening semantic bullshit!

Pure shit!
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alaric89

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 12:17:17 AM »

Better late then never i guess.

The Book Of Alaric
Rules to live by.
A. McCoy


1.1 Follow the Non Aggression Princepal.
  1.1a Do not mess with people who are not harming or aggrieving against a innocent individual.
1.2 Fuck with people who are not following the Non Aggression Principle.
  1.2a As much as possible, using Cost/ benefit commen sense.
     1.2aa Monkey wrenching huge powerfull bullies or groups of bullies is fine as long as getting caught is nearly impossible.
  1.2b Stop when the victimiser has been neutralized.
     1.2ba Vengeance is usually breaking the NAP.
1.3 Do not Set up innocent people.
  1.3a Don't trick people into doing illegal things for example.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 07:24:31 AM by alaric89 »
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Amazing Richard

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2011, 12:20:42 AM »

Lucidhawk...are you friends with Gene?

What is this crap?

You think you are smart with this crap?

I have never read such crap in my life.
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lucidhawk

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2011, 12:21:25 AM »

This thread is total bullshit. It is even worse than feminist rhetoric. COMPLETE BULLSHIT!

To make it even more bullshit, the OP sticks this in the hi-jack free zone.

This must be one of Gene's Christian Anarchist buddies.

Sickening semantic bullshit!

Pure shit!

First of all I'm not Gene the Christian Anarchist's buddy, nor exactly a Christian. But I come from that background and have read the Bible and I am pretty familiar with it.

Instead of just calling it BS please explain how I am wrong. I only post in the hi-jack free zone because I like the idea of being able to remove continual overt trolling. 8)
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"The arguments that were used to perpetuate slavery are identical to the arguments that are used to perpetuate the existence of the state."

The ghost of a ghost of a ghost

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2011, 12:39:53 AM »

This thread is total bullshit. It is even worse than feminist rhetoric. COMPLETE BULLSHIT!

To make it even more bullshit, the OP sticks this in the hi-jack free zone.

This must be one of Gene's Christian Anarchist buddies.

Sickening semantic bullshit!

Pure shit!

WIN.

YOU ARE MY NEW TEMP. GOD.

DON'T LET ME DOWN.

TEACH ME.
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Amazing Richard

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2011, 12:42:07 AM »

This thread is total bullshit. It is even worse than feminist rhetoric. COMPLETE BULLSHIT!

To make it even more bullshit, the OP sticks this in the hi-jack free zone.

This must be one of Gene's Christian Anarchist buddies.

Sickening semantic bullshit!

Pure shit!

First of all I'm not Gene the Christian Anarchist's buddy, nor exactly a Christian. But I come from that background and have read the Bible and I am pretty familiar with it.

Instead of just calling it BS please explain how I am wrong. I only post in the hi-jack free zone because I like the idea of being able to remove continual overt trolling. 8)

First of all....everything I have read from you in this thread comes across as pure semantic bullshit. You are basically saying nothing, cuz you are to much of a pussy to say what is really on yer mind.

You think you are really smart, and think you can mess with people with all this semantic nonsense. I have never read such crap in my life, Lucidhawk. Your crap is a pure abuse of the english language!

This is disgusting!

What do you want with us, "Lucidhawk"????
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lucidhawk

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Re: Jesus promoted Anarchism
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2011, 12:56:19 AM »

First of all....everything I have read from you in this thread comes across as pure semantic bullshit. You are basically saying nothing, cuz you are to much of a pussy to say what is really on yer mind.

You think you are really smart, and think you can mess with people with all this semantic nonsense. I have never read such crap in my life, Lucidhawk. Your crap is a pure abuse of the english language!

This is disgusting!

What do you want with us, "Lucidhawk"????

Instead of addressing even a word of the content of what I'm saying directly, you give more useless babble. Perhaps you should replace your icon with one of these:

« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 12:58:47 AM by lucidhawk »
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"The arguments that were used to perpetuate slavery are identical to the arguments that are used to perpetuate the existence of the state."
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