The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: blackie on April 12, 2010, 10:04:56 PM
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I like the Iranian coverage of this story.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=123121§ionid=351020202
Stolen docs expose Israel war crimes
Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:05:58 GMT
(http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20100412/beglari20100412162801670.jpg)
Former Israeli soldier Anat Kam says she has taken secret military documents as evidence of war crimes committed by Tel Aviv in the occupied West Bank.
Kam, 23, is indicted for espionage over stealing 2,000 classified military documents during her compulsory military service and leaking them to Ha'aretz reporter Uri Blau.
According to new details released of a court hearing held two months ago, Kam claimed that she took the military documents to present as evidence "if and when the war crime the IDF was and is committing in the West Bank" were to be investigated, Israeli media reported Monday.
"I didn't have the chance to change some of the things that I found important to change during my military service, and I thought that by exposing these [materials] I would make a change," Ha'aretz quoted Kam as saying.
"It was important for me to bring the IDF's policy to public knowledge," she added.
Israel has decided to prosecute Kam on espionage charges, which carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
Her lawyers, however, said they have started negotiations over a plea bargain and called on the Ha'aretz reporter to hand over the documents he had received from Kam.
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Israel has decided to prosecute Kam on espionage charges, which carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
Her lawyers, however, said they have started negotiations over a plea bargain and called on the Ha'aretz reporter to hand over the documents he had received from Kam.
lemme guess, her lawyers are gonna ''jew'' 'em down on the sentence....
bahhhh hhaaa hhaaaa
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finally.....
people here disagree w/ your premise that this forum ''needs another jew thread''
[youtube=425,350]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CQFEY9RIRJA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CQFEY9RIRJA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]
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Thanks for bumping it.
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Useless w/o documents :(
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Useless w/o documents :(
Pretty much.
I like the story because it shows that at least some people in the IDF have a conscience.
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I like the story because it shows that at least some people in the IDF have a conscience.
And they're being enslaved.
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Thanks for bumping it.
only to watch it die alone, all over again
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I like the Iranian coverage of this story.
Coming from you that is no surprise.
That site is down. Maybe they closed down the internet today in Iran. Or rerouted the power to their nuclear weapons program.
Anyway, here is some unbiased coverage:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7086417.ece
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only @ 1 month since the last post...
i'd say this thread is going rather well, eh??
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That was awesome.
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Should be called what it is evidence of authorization for political assassination. Sooner or later Israel is going to go to far and sanctions will be imposed on it.
Why attach these actions to all Jews many do not agree with the policies of Israel.
A very close friend of mine who is Jewish is one of Israel's harsh critics. He works with a group here that is exposing many of the lies and propaganda sent out by Zionist.
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(http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20100412/beglari20100412162801670.jpg)
Anat Kam
I'd hit it just so I could brag that I fucked a girl named Anat Kam.
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(http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20100412/beglari20100412162801670.jpg)
Anat Kam
I'd hit it just so I could brag that I fucked a girl named Anat Kam.
two bagger
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(http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20100412/beglari20100412162801670.jpg)
Anat Kam
I'd hit it just so I could brag that I fucked a girl named Anat Kam.
two bagger
yes, but the nose equals good times.
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Should be called what it is evidence of authorization for political assassination. Sooner or later Israel is going to go to far and sanctions will be imposed on it.
Why change? Any title including the words "war crime" has much more populist appeal. If you're going to change it make sure it includes key anti-Israel buzzwords such as "apartheid", "genocide", etc.
How about "The Genocidal policies of Apartheid Israel exposed again - conclusive proof of War Crimes committed on helpless orphan cripple babies after they were starved half to death by the Evil Zionist government".
See? Spice it up. Myth is much more interesting than fact.
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Should be called what it is evidence of authorization for political assassination. Sooner or later Israel is going to go to far and sanctions will be imposed on it.
Why change? Any title including the words "war crime" has much more populist appeal. If you're going to change it make sure it includes key anti-Israel buzzwords such as "apartheid", "genocide", etc.
You are right documented evidence of authorization for political assassination is a war crime. The title of the news article is correct. Israel isn't the only country or the first to engage in such activity. They just got caught. And if the political leaders of a country are engaged in war crimes that becomes a reflection on the country as a whole. Does not mean all Israelis condone the actions of their government. There is overwhelming evidence of the other crimes against humanity for which Israel is guilty. There have been numerous UN resolutions against Israel.
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Israel does NOT perform political assassinations. Israel has carried out targeted killings of terrorists - ie people who have directly targeted or closely orchestrated the direct targeting of civilians. Not just any Hamas official was picked as a target - only those who had blood on their hands.
The Israeli supreme court has ruled that targeted killings may only be carried out in cases where lawful arrest of the terrorist is not possible. Anat Kam allegedly uncovered documents that demonstrate the IDF ignored the supreme court ruling on at least one case.
But that is a far cry from political assassination.
Personally I am proud that in Israel we have courts that keep the authorities in check, and freedom that enables people like Anat Kam to do what she did. Although by stealing confidential documents she has herself broken the law, nevertheless if what she allegates is true then it is a big win for democracy the way things played out, even though the process was a bit cranky.
I think that in any other western country the government would also try their best to put a lid on it, the question is what other power in the state counters that effort.
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Israel does NOT perform political assassinations. Israel has carried out targeted killings of terrorists - ie people who have directly targeted or closely orchestrated the direct targeting of civilians. Not just any Hamas official was picked as a target - only those who had blood on their hands.
The Israeli supreme court has ruled that targeted killings may only be carried out in cases where lawful arrest of the terrorist is not possible. Anat Kam allegedly uncovered documents that demonstrate the IDF ignored the supreme court ruling on at least one case.
But that is a far cry from political assassination.
Personally I am proud that in Israel we have courts that keep the authorities in check, and freedom that enables people like Anat Kam to do what she did. Although by stealing confidential documents she has herself broken the law, nevertheless if what she allegates is true then it is a big win for democracy the way things played out, even though the process was a bit cranky.
I think that in any other western country the government would also try their best to put a lid on it, the question is what other power in the state counters that effort.
Well then, what would it take for Israeli officials, like high-ranking generals in the active military, to be arrested by Hamas on an official level, and stand trial in a military tribunal?
If thats off the table for consideration, they are therefore legitimate targets for termination.
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I knew that would come up.
First of all, it's not as if Hamas ponder on the question of legitimacy to target any Israeli, IDF officer or not. They would just do it whenever they thought they could get away with it. Of course now they're just reconsidering their strategy after getting their ass whooped in Cast Lead.
They would love to target officers, just that it was too difficult so they mostly stuck to firing inaccurate rockets at towns hoping to "get lucky" and hit a nursery or something like that.
I also notice that you are for some reason trying to equate IDF soldiers with Hamas terrorists. Let me just say that if IDF officers are ever caught orchestrating suicide bombings on Gaza buses, then the Israeli judicial system will most likely try them in Israel.
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I knew that would come up.
First of all, it's not as if Hamas ponder on the question of legitimacy to target any Israeli, IDF officer or not. They would just do it whenever they thought they could get away with it. Of course now they're just reconsidering their strategy after getting their ass whooped in Cast Lead.
They would love to target officers, just that it was too difficult so they mostly stuck to firing inaccurate rockets at towns hoping to "get lucky" and hit a nursery or something like that.
I also notice that you are for some reason trying to equate IDF soldiers with Hamas terrorists. Let me just say that if IDF officers are ever caught orchestrating suicide bombings on Gaza buses, then the Israeli judicial system will most likely try them in Israel.
Hamas is considered a legitimate government, and Palestinians died in droves in what they consider an attack on civilians.
I'm not flaming you or being hostile in any way. But you can't tell me that the flip-side of the coin is even up for discussion. These so-called ''criminals" by your definition, high ranking Israeli military leaders who directly ordered the attacks, do indeed have civilian blood on their hands. And the Israeli government would laugh themselves sick if a formal request was issued by Hamas to have a military tribunal for those actions, on Palestinian soil.
Even if they wanted to sign treaties and what-not, and have trials in Switzerland, it would be flatly refused.
So you can't tell me these are anything more than thinly disguised excuses for being caught doing "wet work".
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Hamas is considered a legitimate government,
No they're not. They're not even recognized by the Palestinian authority, let alone any western state. They are considered by most countries to be a terrorist organization.
and Palestinians died in droves in what they consider an attack on civilians.
I don't recall whether you participated in previous threads (maybe you changed your nick), but if they think it was an attack on civilians that doesn't mean it was so - Palestinians actually blame everything on their surroundings, never looking inward for the solution, their nearest surroundings being Israel.
I'm not flaming you or being hostile in any way. But you can't tell me that the flip-side of the coin is even up for discussion. These so-called ''criminals" by your definition, high ranking Israeli military leaders who directly ordered the attacks, do indeed have civilian blood on their hands.
It is NOT the flip side of the coin - you are missing the point. There are key distinctions between lawful warfare and terrorism. You can't try every soldier who ever participated in any war where civilians were killed, otherwise every soldier that ever participated in any conflict since WWII would have to be tried. If an Israeli officer, say, ordered to fire artillery into a civilian neighborhood just for fun to see if he could hit a nursery - that is a war crime. These are the type of actions that Hamas did. But if Israeli cities or IDF were fired upon from point X, and an Israeli officer ordered retaliatory fire into point X, and in point X there are civilians because, surprise surprise, Hamas were using civilians as human shields; then firing at point X, is 100% lawful by any international standards. That is the difference between lawful warfare and terrorism.
And the Israeli government would laugh themselves sick if a formal request was issued by Hamas to have a military tribunal for those actions, on Palestinian soil.
You are right, it is funny. For a terrorist organization to hold a military tribunal against the army that defends their victims from the very terrorism that they themselves initiate. Do you seriously think there is anybody in Hamas remotely capable of holding a fair trial, not to mention for Israelis? Those sick fucks run around with AK-47s shooting Gaza civilians for playing "unholy" music in public.
Even if they wanted to sign treaties and what-not, and have trials in Switzerland, it would be flatly refused.
I'm not sure, in such a case perhaps Israel would agree, on the condition that Hamas war criminals be tried also - you think there are enough judges in Switzerland to try all Hamas members who participated in terrorism?
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Hamas is considered a legitimate government,
No they're not. They're not even recognized by the Palestinian authority, let alone any western state. They are considered by most countries to be a terrorist organization.
Hamas (حماس Ḥamās, an acronym of حركة المقاومة الاسلامية Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement") is a Palestinian Islamic organization with a socio-political wing[5][6] and a paramilitary force, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.[2][3] Since June 2007, after winning a large majority in the Palestinian Parliament and defeating rival Palestinian party Fatah in a series of violent clashes, Hamas has governed the Gaza portion of the Palestinian Territories. The governments of Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, and the United States classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. The United Kingdom and Australia] classify only Hamas' independent military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.
Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada, an uprising against Israeli rule in the Palestinian Territories. Hamas launched numerous suicide bombings against Israelis, the first of them in April, 1993. Hamas ceased the attacks in 2005 and renounced them in April, 2006. Hamas has also been responsible for rocket attacks since 2001, improvised explosive device attacks, and shootings, but it reduced those operations in 2005 and 2006.
In January 2006, Hamas was successful in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43. After Hamas's election victory, violent and non-violent conflicts arose between Hamas and Fatah.
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Nuances I'd rather not debate. They are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization. Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.
Regardless, they declare themselves as a legitimate government, are elected, and hold majority. Which is the quantifying definition of any government, elected or not - they rule a recognized territory.
I personally believe Israel is a puppet government of the United States established for the sole purpose of having a grasp on the region. Or, at least, it was. Its now an ally that should stop accepting foreign aid, exist on its own until its inevitable destruction.
My only purpose to comment at all was to make the statement that Israel conducts *(or has conducted) political assassinations, and denying it is idiotic. The Mossad is among the most elite espionage agencies in the world, and assassination is a tool any government will use.
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well, fuck me silly, if blackies ' dead-thread' done sprung another life.....
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[Hamas] are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization. Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.
As opposed to the "numerous" (the actual number being 2) western countries who define only the military wing of Hamas as terrorist, how many western countries define the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or if you'd rather not debate these "nuances" then stop trying to equate IDF to Hamas.
Regardless, they declare themselves as a legitimate government, are elected, and hold majority. Which is the quantifying definition of any government, elected or not - they rule a recognized territory.
They are a cutthroat band of thugs that won majority in the PA parliament in January 2006, presumably after Palestinians got fed up with Fatah officials corruption and voted for Hamas as a non-confidence vote against Fatah. After winning the elections back then, they proceeded to crush by force all remaining opposition, taking control of all remaining parliament seats, government, presidency and judicial system, at gunpoint. All opposition were either killed, silenced (kneecapping was popular), or fled to Judea-Samaria. And no, the Gaza strip is not recognized as an independent territory separate from Judea-Samaria. According to the PA charter, elections are to be held every four years, so they should have been held in January 2010. However, surprise surprise, Hamas postponed them indefinitely. (I believe they annulled the PA charter). Suppose the republicans, after winning elections in some year in the US, killed off all opposing congress members, replaced the supreme court with judges answering to dictator Bush (or whomever), and annulled the declaration of independence.
My only purpose to comment at all was to make the statement that Israel conducts *(or has conducted) political assassinations
Political assassination is when you assassinate an appointed state official, such as a cabinet member. That's when you get to put the word "political" in front. Israel has never done that (Palestinians on the other hand, have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehavam_Ze%27evi)). I do not deny Israel has targeted individual terrorists, as that is front page news. But that is not political assassination.
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[Hamas] are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization. Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.
As opposed to the "numerous" (the actual number being 2) western countries who define only the military wing of Hamas as terrorist, how many western countries define the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or if you'd rather not debate these "nuances" then stop trying to equate IDF to Hamas.
Nobody in the West defines the IDF as a terrorist organization, because the Israelis would be offended and would pull the Jew card. A big shitstorm would ensue. But there are many countries in the Middle East that hold that particular view, because they are not allies of the Israeli government.
This is called "diplomacy", and is practiced by "diplomats". I am not a diplomat, and have never been accused of diplomacy. I call it like I see it, and as I see it, there is very little difference between the two sides of the border.
Your problem is that you have a vested interest in one side. Its your "team", and you make many excuses for abhorrent behavior on their behalf, when looked at from a neutral perspective, it makes you a hypocrite. This is reflected not only in you, but on a political level, most major governments.
Not surprisingly, this is the same mentality that is common among outlaw motorcycle gangs who clash over turf. It has been said many times that there is no right and wrong in the purview of Hells Angels as it relates to society, they only concern themselves with "right" (meaning correctness) as it pertains to them. They define "right" internally, and dispense justice when their lines have been crossed. They don't use diplomacy to gain respect, they demand respect and use violence to maintain it.
As this translates to governments, devout membership or citizenship is not different. The zeal and zealotry is an exaggerated response of the edicts handed down from On-High, the party line. WE have concluded that THEY are in the wrong, and WE will retaliate or enforce our will upon THEM. The devout members, whipped into a frenzy of righteousness, wholeheartedly agree - regardless of rationality. The offense of the incident is practically meaningless. It is, by and large, a reason to retaliate against a foe. It could even be preemptively, or the retaliation could be many times larger than the incident that spawned the action - which is nothing more than a signal of superiority and an assurance of future, similar responses.
It is not the MAD scenario, but the inordinate response of multiplicity. For every one of ours you kill, we will kill ten of yours. And then they actually carry it out, to the letter - and the denizens of the superior force cheer the might of their protectionists, secure in their confidence that this threat of multiplicity is fearsome enough to preserve their sanctity of life. What they never really contemplate is this threat has to be perceived as a wholesale calculation of life among both sides by governing representatives who will never be included in the calculation.
And what all this boils down to is the threat of violence, acts performed and promise of future acts to maintain the status quo, since respect is not given freely by mutual accord. This is by definition, terror, and is a tactic of terrorist organizations - the use of random violence against civilians when diplomacy fails. And while I'm sure the IDF would be more than happy to oblige an all-out conventional war, the Hamas military forces do not have the capacity to wage a legitimate counterstrike with conventional weaponry. This limits their options to random acts, but by no means justifies the retaliatory measures deemed appropriate by the IDF - which do fall under the definition of terror strikes whether you like it or not. The only difference is, the IDF proudly announces they were operating from a legitimate, standing army with uniformed participants and proudly stenciled equipment.
Trying to legitimize the act with officially owned equipment makes no difference to the ultimate outcome. Its still an act of terror. And by that measure, the IDF terrorists, and the supporters are sponsors.
The State of Israel has many, many times dropped the ball on legitimate acts of retaliatory war against legitimate armies of their neighboring countries, more times than they have been successful in the masquerade of "defending their homeland". They have had countless opportunities to strike and occupy a foreign nation, which is the ultimate purpose of war - to conquer and absorb your foe to ensure no future harm would come from their defeated army. The fail to do that, because they know the ultimate outcome would be the mobilization of all surrounding armies and they would be wiped off the face of the earth.
So they sit in their little hole and wave their Israeli flag, like an island of temporary privileged Ivy League grad students, milking Uncle Sam's generous trust fund to fuel their ongoing circus, and expecting him to fork over the horsepower if shit gets too thick. This is the implication that rankles me the most, even more-so than the charity our country extends to fund their crazy little experiment - that the United States will bomb the shit out of anyone who makes the mistake of pushing the limits of mutually-exchanged terror acts as revenge for their policy of multiplicity.
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[Hamas] are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization. Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.
As opposed to the "numerous" (the actual number being 2) western countries who define only the military wing of Hamas as terrorist, how many western countries define the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or if you'd rather not debate these "nuances" then stop trying to equate IDF to Hamas.
Nobody in the West defines the IDF as a terrorist organization, because the Israelis would be offended and would pull the Jew card. A big shitstorm would ensue. But there are many countries in the Middle East that hold that particular view, because they are not allies of the Israeli government.
(and the rest ...... edited out in the interest of saving space.)
Very well said, couldn't possibly add to your commentary it explains the position of wanting an end to aggression in the best manner possible.
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Nobody in the West defines the IDF as a terrorist organization, because the Israelis would be offended and would pull the Jew card. A big shitstorm would ensue. But there are many countries in the Middle East that hold that particular view, because they are not allies of the Israeli government.
Nobody in the west defines the IDF as terrorists, since IDF do exactly what any western army would do faced with the same situation. What if some lunatic cult in Mexico armed themselves to the teeth and started shooting missiles at your town, with the unmistakable purpose of killing as many non-combatants as possible, and all while using civilians as human shields. Maybe they believe America should be all theirs, who cares why. Would you not be demanding the US army to take action - even at the risk of those innocent civilians if there is no other option? Sure, you have no quarrel with Mexican civlians, only with the lunatics. But don't tell me you value Mexican children's lives the same as you value your childrens lives. If forced to make a cruel choice you'd choose your children in a split second, all philosophy aside.
I call it like I see it, and as I see it, there is very little difference between the two sides of the border.
You say that because you do not seem to know much about the conflict. Sure, side A kills side B and vice versa, whats the difference?
But there are key differences. Which side has called for peace since the beginning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence), and which side refuses to recognize the other and relentlessly calls for its destruction (http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm)? Written declarations and action may not be the same, you could say, but Hamas don't even pretend to want any solution (other than their illusions of destroying Israel). The Palestinians had every opportunity to make a clean peaceful break - Israel even unilateraly withdrew from Gaza in 2005. While Hamas blatently targeted Israeli civilians, IDF did more to protect Gaza civlians when engaging Hamas military, than Hamas ever did.
Its your "team", and you make many excuses for abhorrent behavior on their behalf, when looked at from a neutral perspective
No I do not. If and when an Israeli (civilian or miltary) condones terrorism I am the first to object. But in Israel these are the eccentrics, not the mainstream.
The offense of the incident is practically meaningless. It is, by and large, a reason to retaliate against a foe.
What are you talking about?! The Palestinians were given every chance for a fair agreement. Instead they voted for Hamas. If you look at the Hamas charter as I linked to above, you see that resolve of the conflict can only be made over Hamas' dead body - literally.
Now when Hamas rain down rockets on an Israel town like Sderot for eight fucking years, killing and injuring hundreds, disrupting the lives tens of thousands, not to mention totally fucking up the economy and social life, that to me seems quite a rational reason to retaliate against Hamas.
Sure Israel would rather live in peace with its neighbors, but there is no partner, at least in Gaza.
And what all this boils down to is the threat of violence, acts performed and promise of future acts to maintain the status quo, since respect is not given freely by mutual accord. This is by definition, terror, and is a tactic of terrorist organizations - the use of random violence against civilians when diplomacy fails.
IDF did not engage in "random violence" against civilians. IDF engaged in pinpoint directed and carefully planned attacks against Hamas armed personnel, combat and command facilites.
And while I'm sure the IDF would be more than happy to oblige an all-out conventional war, the Hamas military forces do not have the capacity to wage a legitimate counterstrike with conventional weaponry.This limits their options to random acts,
... of violence against non-combatants you mean. Awwh come on, there are plenty of ways to fight geurilla warfare without targeting civilians. The Partisans did it, the IRA also mostly avoided targeting civlians. Hamas are just murderous cowards, attacking Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own.
The only difference is, the IDF proudly announces they were operating from a legitimate, standing army with uniformed participants and proudly stenciled equipment.
As you've mentioned uniform, uniform is not just for show. Uniform is what distinguishes you from a civilian. How can you lawfully target enemy combatants if you can't distinguish them from civilians? Hamas militants done civilian clothes, bear arms and attack IDF forces, and when IDF kills a Hamas militant in civilian clothes the Palestinians quickly hide his rifle and claim it was "random violence against civilians". It doesn't matter how shiny your gear is, what matters is how you use it and who you point it at
The State of Israel has many, many times dropped the ball on legitimate acts of retaliatory war against legitimate armies of their neighboring countries, more times than they have been successful in the masquerade of "defending their homeland". They have had countless opportunities to strike and occupy a foreign nation, which is the ultimate purpose of war - to conquer and absorb your foe to ensure no future harm would come from their defeated army. The fail to do that, because they know the ultimate outcome would be the mobilization of all surrounding armies and they would be wiped off the face of the earth.
So now you are critisizing Israel for NOT seizing more territory? Thats a new one. Could it just be that Israel govs have never had any aspiration to control neighboring states? Could it be that we just want to live in peace?
So they sit in their little hole and wave their Israeli flag, like an island of temporary privileged Ivy League grad students, milking Uncle Sam's generous trust fund to fuel their ongoing circus, and expecting him to fork over the horsepower if shit gets too thick. This is the implication that rankles me the most, even more-so than the charity our country extends to fund their crazy little experiment - that the United States will bomb the shit out of anyone who makes the mistake of pushing the limits of mutually-exchanged terror acts as revenge for their policy of multiplicity.
Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US. Israel has passed its toughest tests of survival in the first 20 years of its existence, without any US help. Still thank you ever so kindly for the 2.5% percent of Israel's budget received as aid from the US, starting in the late sixties after Israel had become a regional force to reckon with. You see, this is not charity but an alliance of mutual interest.
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As you've mentioned uniform, uniform is not just for show.
When I was in the army, the uniform was for camouflage.
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US.
Yeah, right.
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But don't tell me you value Mexican children's lives the same as you value your childrens lives. If forced to make a cruel choice you'd choose your children in a split second, all philosophy aside.
Are you saying the IDF views Jewish children's lives are more important than non-jewish children's lives?
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US.
Yeah, right.
Israel can't "go it alone". If the Arabs set up an effective blockade, it would be over. The only thing left for Israel would be the Samson option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
In 2003, Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history at Israel’s Hebrew University, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[18] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying "I consider it all hopeless at this point. ... We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under."
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US.
Yeah, right.
Israel can't "go it alone". If the Arabs set up an effective blockade, it would be over. The only thing left for Israel would be the Samson option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
In 2003, Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history at Israel’s Hebrew University, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[18] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying "I consider it all hopeless at this point. ... We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under."
Apparently this brilliant scholar guy thinks the Middle East is "the world".
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US.
The individuals that live there could probably thrive without the US government so long as the Israeli one went with it but I'm pretty certain neither the majority of those individuals or the Israeli government would have ever exist w/o US involvement.
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US. Israel has passed its toughest tests of survival in the first 20 years of its existence, without any US help.
Really? This is what you think? Because I am fairly certain I've pointed out that most of the weaponry used in the 6 Day War was of American make. I've cited model numbers and everything. Have you just chosen to ignore those facts?
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US.
Yeah, right.
Israel can't "go it alone". If the Arabs set up an effective blockade, it would be over. The only thing left for Israel would be the Samson option.
The Arabs have already tried that a few times. They lost each time. Even when the Israelis were only fighting with surplus Mosin Nagants and other shitty Commie weapons and had only a fraction of the amount of troops and supplies and economic backing from Europe compared to the Arabs.
There's something about fighting for a piece of land the size of New Hampshire that represents your multi-millenial homeland that makes you fight hard and well.
Try looking up this stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Canal_Crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US. Israel has passed its toughest tests of survival in the first 20 years of its existence, without any US help.
Really? This is what you think? Because I am fairly certain I've pointed out that most of the weaponry used in the 6 Day War was of American make. I've cited model numbers and everything. Have you just chosen to ignore those facts?
I do recall we talked about it (although can't find the thread). Anyway you seemed to have forgotten the conclusion, so I'll remind you. Here's a list of IAF combat aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force#Fixed_wing_combat_types). As you can see, before 1967 none were American (except a pair of two B-17s that were not acquired from the US gov but smuggled out of the US. Google for the famous story). IAF relied mostly on French aircraft. Even if you look at the support aircraft lists you can see that prior to 1967 any American aircraft that Israel had were trainers, civilian aircraft, or assorted singular pieces that were not obtained from the US gov. In fact the Americans participated in an arms embargo to the whole middle east that did not end until after 1967.
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US. Israel has passed its toughest tests of survival in the first 20 years of its existence, without any US help.
Really? This is what you think? Because I am fairly certain I've pointed out that most of the weaponry used in the 6 Day War was of American make. I've cited model numbers and everything. Have you just chosen to ignore those facts?
I do recall we talked about it (although can't find the thread). Anyway you seemed to have forgotten the conclusion, so I'll remind you. Here's a list of IAF combat aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force#Fixed_wing_combat_types). As you can see, before 1967 none were American (except a pair of two B-17s that were not acquired from the US gov but smuggled out of the US. Google for the famous story). IAF relied mostly on French aircraft. Even if you look at the support aircraft lists you can see that prior to 1967 the only American aircraft that Israel had were trainers and civilian aircraft. In fact the Americans participated in an arms embargo to the whole middle east that did not end until after 1967.
Yup, and now Egypt and Jordan and Israel all have US small arms (M16s).
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US.
Yeah, right.
Israel can't "go it alone". If the Arabs set up an effective blockade, it would be over. The only thing left for Israel would be the Samson option.
The Arabs have already tried that a few times. They lost each time.
Israel can't sustain a long war without being resupplied. They needed jet fuel during the 2006 Lebanon war, and that only lasted one month.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_military_relations
During the 2006 Lebanon War, the United States provided a major resupply of jet fuel and precision-guided munition to replenish depleted Israeli stocks.
You may want to look into Operation Nickel Grass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass).
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US. Israel has passed its toughest tests of survival in the first 20 years of its existence, without any US help.
Really? This is what you think? Because I am fairly certain I've pointed out that most of the weaponry used in the 6 Day War was of American make. I've cited model numbers and everything. Have you just chosen to ignore those facts?
I do recall we talked about it (although can't find the thread). Anyway you seemed to have forgotten the conclusion, so I'll remind you. Here's a list of IAF combat aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force#Fixed_wing_combat_types). As you can see, before 1967 none were American (except a pair of two B-17s that were not acquired from the US gov but smuggled out of the US. Google for the famous story). IAF relied mostly on French aircraft. Even if you look at the support aircraft lists you can see that prior to 1967 any American aircraft that Israel had were trainers, civilian aircraft, or assorted singular pieces that were not obtained from the US gov. In fact the Americans participated in an arms embargo to the whole middle east that did not end until after 1967.
Okay, let’s just go with what you said. It seems Israel needs support from someone does it not? If France was the major supplier as you say prior to the U.S. how does this prove Israel is able to handle things themselves?
Israel just does not have the resources or production capacity to outfit a modern military. That is the fact and should not be taken as a disparaging remark. That is why if I was a betting man, which I am, I’d bet on the Arabs. They will win eventually through attrition, maybe sooner if the world economy tanks hard. It would be best if the Israel gov just accepts this and makes peace with those it is currently pissing off. You all look alike to me anyways. What’s the problem?
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Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US. Israel has passed its toughest tests of survival in the first 20 years of its existence, without any US help.
Really? This is what you think? Because I am fairly certain I've pointed out that most of the weaponry used in the 6 Day War was of American make. I've cited model numbers and everything. Have you just chosen to ignore those facts?
I do recall we talked about it (although can't find the thread). Anyway you seemed to have forgotten the conclusion, so I'll remind you. Here's a list of IAF combat aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force#Fixed_wing_combat_types). As you can see, before 1967 none were American (except a pair of two B-17s that were not acquired from the US gov but smuggled out of the US. Google for the famous story). IAF relied mostly on French aircraft. Even if you look at the support aircraft lists you can see that prior to 1967 any American aircraft that Israel had were trainers, civilian aircraft, or assorted singular pieces that were not obtained from the US gov. In fact the Americans participated in an arms embargo to the whole middle east that did not end until after 1967.
Okay, let’s just go with what you said. It seems Israel needs support from someone does it not? If France was the major supplier as you say prior to the U.S. how does this prove Israel is able to handle things themselves?
Israel just does not have the resources or production capacity to outfit a modern military. That is the fact and should not be taken as a disparaging remark. That is why if I was a betting man, which I am, I’d bet on the Arabs. They will win eventually through attrition, maybe sooner if the world economy tanks hard. It would be best if the Israel gov just accepts this and makes peace with those it is currently pissing off. You all look alike to me anyways. What’s the problem?
Sorry, but the Israelis already whipped the Arabs several times in several wars where the Arab League was collaborating to "Push the Jews into the Sea". Didn't work in 48 when the Israelis were armed with shitty surplus Commie weapons, and won't work today now that they are armed with state of the art American as well as home designed high tech defensive and offensive weapons.
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But don't tell me you value Mexican children's lives the same as you value your childrens lives. If forced to make a cruel choice you'd choose your children in a split second, all philosophy aside.
Are you saying the IDF views Jewish children's lives are more important than non-jewish children's lives?
IDF has no quarrel with the Palestinian Joe. Israel gains nothing when non-combatants are hurt during fighting with non-combatants - even putting aside humanitarian issues it weakens the efficiency of IDF to fight the real enemy. However, the primary mission of the Israeli Defense Forces, is not ponder on philosophical dilemmas (who's life is worth more etc.), but to protect Israelis. I think that is understandable.
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Here's a list of IAF combat aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Israeli_Air_Force#Fixed_wing_combat_types). As you can see, before 1967 none were American (except a pair of two B-17s that were not acquired from the US gov but smuggled out of the US. Google for the famous story). IAF relied mostly on French aircraft. Even if you look at the support aircraft lists you can see that prior to 1967 any American aircraft that Israel had were trainers, civilian aircraft, or assorted singular pieces that were not obtained from the US gov. In fact the Americans participated in an arms embargo to the whole middle east that did not end until after 1967.
Okay, let’s just go with what you said. It seems Israel needs support from someone does it not? If France was the major supplier as you say prior to the U.S. how does this prove Israel is able to handle things themselves?
Israel just does not have the resources or production capacity to outfit a modern military. That is the fact and should not be taken as a disparaging remark.
I was countering various silly claims on the lines of "Israel is dependent on US aid" and "Israel exists only thanks to the US". Sure Israel imports stuff, including weapons. That is trade, it does not show Israel is not self-sufficient. If you buy your vegetables in the supermarket instead of growing them that does not mean you are not self-sufficient. The US is heavily dependent on Arab oil imports too. During the 60s-80s the Arab armies were massively supplied by the Russians.
That is why if I was a betting man, which I am, I’d bet on the Arabs. They will win eventually through attrition, maybe sooner if the world economy tanks hard.
The Arabs have been trying the attrition thing for decades, it only made Israel stronger and more self-sufficient. Had you put your money on Israel in 1948 you'd have won a 100 to 1 "long-shot". These days the smart money is on Israel.
It would be best if the Israel gov just accepts this and makes peace with those it is currently pissing off. What’s the problem?
Israel has made peace with several of its neighbors. The remaining bitter enemies like Iran and their footsoldiers Hamas are still delirious with the idea that they can destroy Israel, so they do not want to make peace. I hope they will come to their senses in the next few years.
You all look alike to me anyways.
I once told a girl from Canadian Vancouver that she is practically American, and that seemed to piss her off pretty much. Or maybe it was just foreplay.
See my answer to Drifter in this thread.
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It would be best if the Israel gov just accepts this and makes peace with those it is currently pissing off. What’s the problem?
Israel has made peace with several of its neighbors. The remaining bitter enemies like Iran and their footsoldiers Hamas are still delirious with the idea that they can destroy Israel, so they do not want to make peace. I hope they will come to their senses in the next few years.
I think the truth is more than that. It's not just that Iran really and truly wants to destroy Israel, although that's what their propaganda surely says. To me, it's really just a way to "blame it on the Jews" and distract the Iranian populace from the Iranian government's true faults. Luckily last year we saw massive protests against the Iranian government, so that kinda shows me that the Iranian public isn't buying State Propaganda so much anymore.
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The Arabs only need to win once.
And yes, if I buy veggies from the super market because I do not have a garden than I am not self sufficient in the veggy area. I am relying on others to make it possible to buy the veggies I need. What happens when all the farmers go bankrupt or there is a massive delay in the veggy transportation line. I know what happens, I am with out veggies. And that is when the towel heads over run my home, raping and pillaging as they go. I will be killed and my daughters will be enslaved to the barbarian horde. All for not having some carrots growing in the back yard.
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Luckily last year we saw massive protests against the Iranian government, so that kinda shows me that the Iranian public isn't buying State Propaganda so much anymore.
Those were fueled by the CIA. More smoke than fire. I have no doubt the average Iranian, I know a few, has no burning hatred for Jews. They seem to be just average good people. Just like most Jews in Israel.
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We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under."
Wow, it sounds like I'm not safe until he no longer exists. I don't like people who threaten me.
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It's not just that Iran really and truly wants to destroy Israel, although that's what their propaganda surely says. To me, it's really just a way to "blame it on the Jews" and distract the Iranian populace from the Iranian government's true faults. Luckily last year we saw massive protests against the Iranian government, so that kinda shows me that the Iranian public isn't buying State Propaganda so much anymore.
Yes, I think you are right. I mean, Iran is more than a thousand kilometers away from Israel, there has never been any substantial conflict between Iran and Israel. What the fuck does Iran have so bitter against Israel? What the fuck has Israel done so bad to Iran that they call for Israel's destruction every other day?
During the Shah regime until the 80s, Israel and Iran were quite friendly and cooperated on many levels, believe it or not. Then in came the Ayatollahs with their fundamentalist Islam and just had to find some kind of fault in Israel. I suppose if you are an Islamic fundamentalist you have to hate Israel to be popular among the other Islamic kids.
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I suppose if you are an Islamic fundamentalist you have to hate Israel to be popular among the other Islamic kids.
It's not much different than the fundamentalist Jews who think they are the chosen people, and have birthrights because of it.
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I suppose if you are an Islamic fundamentalist you have to hate Israel to be popular among the other Islamic kids.
It's not much different than the fundamentalist Jews who think they are the chosen people, and have birthrights because of it.
How do you define:
-fundamentalist Jew
-chosenness
-birthright
?
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I suppose if you are an Islamic fundamentalist you have to hate Israel to be popular among the other Islamic kids.
It's not much different than the fundamentalist Jews who think they are the chosen people, and have birthrights because of it.
How do you define:
-fundamentalist Jew
-chosenness
-birthright
?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_fundamentalism
Jewish fundamentalism may refer to[1]:
* (A) militant religious Zionism[2]
* (B) Ashkenazi or Sephardi ultra-orthodoxy Judaism[2]
The term "fundamentalism" was originally used in reference to certain Christian groups but today commonly refers to the anti-modernist movements of any religion based on literal interpretation of religious scriptures[3].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people
Various groups and individuals (see List of messiah claimants) have considered themselves chosen by God for some purpose such as to act as God's agent on earth.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/birthright
Main Entry: birth·right
Pronunciation: \ˈbərth-ˌrīt\
Function: noun
Date: 1530
: a right, privilege, or possession to which a person is entitled by birth
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I suppose if you are an Islamic fundamentalist you have to hate Israel to be popular among the other Islamic kids.
It's not much different than the fundamentalist Jews who think they are the chosen people, and have birthrights because of it.
How do you define:
-fundamentalist Jew
-chosenness
-birthright
?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_fundamentalism
Jewish fundamentalism may refer to[1]:
* (A) militant religious Zionism[2]
* (B) Ashkenazi or Sephardi ultra-orthodoxy Judaism[2]
The term "fundamentalism" was originally used in reference to certain Christian groups but today commonly refers to the anti-modernist movements of any religion based on literal interpretation of religious scriptures[3].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people
Various groups and individuals (see List of messiah claimants) have considered themselves chosen by God for some purpose such as to act as God's agent on earth.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/birthright
Main Entry: birth·right
Pronunciation: \ˈbərth-ˌrīt\
Function: noun
Date: 1530
: a right, privilege, or possession to which a person is entitled by birth
Interesting.
A few points. One is that the camps defined as "fundamentalist" by the article are mutually exclusive, so it would be nice if you could tell us which you're referring to. Another point is that in three years in yeshiva, I can;t recall a single time where "chosenness" was ever a topic. Today, on wikipedia, I finally find out what people online mean when they use that term. Third point is the fact that birthright in the dictionary is defined for individuals, wheras the Jewish people as a whole were given Israel by G-d.
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Third point is the fact that birthright in the dictionary is defined for individuals, wheras the Jewish people as a whole were given Israel by G-d.
1. each individual jewish person is an individual, your birthright argument is stupid.
b. I love it when you come right out and admit it's a holy war. Fucking crazy zealot murderer
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Nothing says 'crazy' quite like falling back on the sky-wizard's perceived intentions.
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Nothing says 'crazy' quite like falling back on the sky-wizard's perceived intentions.
Negro, please.
Take everything I have said on this forum, and subtract anything religion related. Now judge that.
When you do that, do I seem to be well reasoned, and practical, or loony?
And if you're too stupid to put together an argument, and just insult me, you should rather perform autoeroticism.
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Nothing says 'crazy' quite like falling back on the sky-wizard's perceived intentions.
Negro, please.
Take everything I have said on this forum, and subtract anything religion related. Now judge that.
When you do that, do I seem to be well reasoned, and practical, or loony?
And if you're too stupid to put together an argument, and just insult me, you should rather perform autoeroticism.
I'm happy and you're not - and practically everything you've ever said here is imbued with religious fanaticism.
Which of us is stupid?
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Third point is the fact that birthright in the dictionary is defined for individuals, wheras the Jewish people as a whole were given Israel by G-d.
1. each individual jewish person is an individual, your birthright argument is stupid.
b. I love it when you come right out and admit it's a holy war. Fucking crazy zealot murderer
1. G-d often judges us as groups, so take it up with Him.
b. Where did I say that? Where did I ever mention holy war, or even insinuate that? Did I ever mention the Torah viewpoint of modern Israel?
From where do you even know how I stand on Israel? I never make my opinions public. My coworkers, students, Rebbe, friends and family don't know, so how would you? You just like to read into what I say because from your bigoted perspective all Jews are Zionists, and because I am a practicing Jew, I "must" be a practicing Zionist.
You don't know if I take the chassidishe, or litvish view. You don't know if I support NK and believe in what it says in Sanhedrin 97 daf b, or not. You just dont know. At all.
How am I a murderer? Where does that come into play? I live in the U.S. I dont take a part in what happens in Israel. Try not being such a fucking bigoted asshole dude.
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1. G-d often judges us as groups, so take it up with Him.
Why do you say these things? It won't be taken seriously, only used as evidence that you're a fruitcake taking orders from an imaginary friend.
Where did I say that? Where did I ever mention holy war, or even insinuate that?
Here:
wheras the Jewish people as a whole were given Israel by G-d.
FYI, no they weren't. They were given Israel by the international government formed at the end of WW2. God is merely a convenient excuse to steal the land from it's previous inhabitants.
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oh yeah and
From where do you even know how I stand on Israel? I never make my opinions public. My coworkers, students, Rebbe, friends and family don't know, so how would you? You just like to read into what I say because from your bigoted perspective all Jews are Zionists, and because I am a practicing Jew, I "must" be a practicing Zionist.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLOLOOL
wheras the Jewish people as a whole were given Israel by G-d.
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=T1
10 dead as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid convoy
By the CNN Wire Staff
May 31, 2010 8:51 a.m. EDT
(CNN) -- International condemnation poured in Monday after Israeli soldiers stormed a flotilla of ships carrying aid intended for Palestinians in Gaza, leaving at least 10 people dead in the resulting violence.
Israel claimed it was defending itself, with the Israel Defense Forces saying the soldiers' lives were in danger after they were attacked with "severe physical violence, including live fire, weapons, knives and clubs."
IDF spokeswoman Lt. Col. Avital Leibowitz said light weapons and handguns were confiscated. "We basically encountered a lynch," she said. "We had to control this violence."
But other nations condemned the military action and called for an investigation.
White House spokesman Bill Burton said the United States "deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy."
World reaction
The Spanish and French governments called the action "disproportionate." The Italian foreign minister asked the European Union to investigate, and several nations, including Greece and Sweden, were summoning their Israeli ambassadors.
An indignant Turkey recalled its ambassador from Israel, canceled three planned military exercises with the Israeli military and called home its youth national football team, which had two games scheduled in Israel, said Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc.
Q&A: What is the blockade about
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was in Chile, but will return after meeting with the Chilean president, Arinc said. The chief of the Turkish military was cutting short a trip to Egypt. The Turkish foreign minister, in Venezuela, was calling the United Nations Security Council to an emergency meeting, Arinc said.
"This operation will leave a bloody stain on the history of humanity," Arinc said. A Turkish group, the Humanitarian Relief Foundation or IHH, was one of the organizers of the flotilla, but people from various nations were aboard.
In a statement, Bahrain called it a "barbaric attack" on the part of Israel.
Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, an envoy for the Middle East Quartet, a group of nations working toward peace in the region, said in a statement Monday: "There obviously has to be a full investigation into what has happened. Once again I repeat my view that we need a different and better way of helping the people of Gaza and avoiding the hardship and tragedy that is inherent in the present situation."
Current Foreign Minister William Hague said: "We have consistently advised against attempting to access Gaza in this way, because of the risks involved. But at the same time, there is a clear need for Israel to act with restraint and in line with international obligations."
Five Israeli soldiers were wounded, the military said. The ships of the flotilla were being taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod, according to IDF.
The Free Gaza Movement, one of the groups sponsoring the flotilla, disputed Israel's claim of violence by people aboard the ships.
"At about 4:30 am, Israeli commandos dropped from a helicopter onto deck of Turkish ship, immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians," said a post on the group's Twitter page.
Video aired on CNN sister network CNN Turk showed soldiers abseiling onto the deck of a ship from a helicopter above. The boarding of the ships took place more than 70 nautical miles outside Israeli territorial waters, according to IHH.
The Turkish foreign ministry said the incident "might cause irreversible consequences" in the nation's relationship with Israel.
"Israel has once again clearly demonstrated that it does not value human lives and peaceful initiatives through targeting innocent civilians," the statement said. "We strongly condemn these inhuman acts of Israel."
Meanwhile, a protest that began outside the Israeli embassy in Istanbul on Sunday continued into Monday. Although largely peaceful, police did use water cannons at one point to keep demonstrators at bay. Israel issued a "serious travel warning" for Israelis visiting Turkey. Those planning to travel to Turkey were asked to postpone their trip, while those in Turkey were advised to stay indoors.
The Israeli PM office has issues a serious travel warning for Israeli travelers visiting Turkey. The warning calls Israelis who are about to travel into Turkey to postpone their trip and for Israelis in Turkey to remain indoors and avoid presence in the city centers.
In Gaza, where the flotilla was headed, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri called for global support of the Palestinian cause.
"The Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla is an ugly crime and against international law and this reflects the nature of the criminal Israeli occupation," Zuhri said. "We call upon the free world Arab and Muslim world to stand in support and help and support the international activists who have been subjected to killing in the middle of the sea."
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called for three days of mourning in the Palestinian territories to honor the lives lost.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the leaders of the flotilla of looking for a fight.
"They wanted to make a political statement. They wanted violence," according to Regev, who said Israel wanted a peaceful interception of the ships trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza. "They are directly responsible for the violence and the deaths that occurred."
The convoy of boats approached Gaza in defiance of an Israeli blockade and had been shadowed by three Israeli warships. Free Gaza had reported Sunday that they had been contacted by the Israeli navy.
The boats left European ports in a consolidated protest organized by two pro-Palestinian groups to deliver tons of food and other aid to Gaza to break a blockade imposed by Israel in 2007.
The maritime convoys were organized by both the Free Gaza Movement and the IHH, a humanitarian relief foundation affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood religious group.
Israel said Sunday that Western and Turkish authorities have accused IHH of having "working relations" with different terrorist organizations.
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The Israeli blockade is an act of war. Yeah, who is going to bring a knife to a gun fight. IDF clearly attacked these people. Israel wants to contaminate or destroy or not allow in useful materials to the Gaza in the form of housing, water purification and medicine. Israel is a criminal nation it is becoming clearer for the world to see that.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jFki4MerB8GrGJS2hOVmY5UOJm4wD9G000780
Israeli FM: Gaza ships to be stopped 'at any cost'
(AP) – 2 days ago
JERUSALEM — Israel's foreign minister says the country is prepared to stop a flotilla of pro-Palestinian activists from reaching the Gaza Strip "at any cost."
Avigdor Lieberman said Friday the aid mission is a violent provocation, and he hopes the international community understands the Israeli response.
Greta Berlin, one of the organizers of the effort, said a total of seven ships carrying hundreds of volunteers are now on their way to Gaza. They are expected to reach the Israeli coast on Saturday.
Organizers are carrying tons of goods of humanitarian goods for Gaza, which has been under an Israeli blockade since Hamas militants took power three years ago.
Israel calls the flotilla a publicity stunt. Its navy plans on intercepting the flotilla and escorting the boats to shore.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jFki4MerB8GrGJS2hOVmY5UOJm4wD9G000780
Israeli FM: Gaza ships to be stopped 'at any cost'
(AP) – 2 days ago
JERUSALEM — Israel's foreign minister says the country is prepared to stop a flotilla of pro-Palestinian activists from reaching the Gaza Strip "at any cost."
Avigdor Lieberman said Friday the aid mission is a violent provocation, and he hopes the international community understands the Israeli response.
Greta Berlin, one of the organizers of the effort, said a total of seven ships carrying hundreds of volunteers are now on their way to Gaza. They are expected to reach the Israeli coast on Saturday.
Organizers are carrying tons of goods of humanitarian goods for Gaza, which has been under an Israeli blockade since Hamas militants took power three years ago.
Israel calls the flotilla a publicity stunt. Its navy plans on intercepting the flotilla and escorting the boats to shore.
I agree it was a publicity stunt but Israel handled it badly. They are obviously lying about this group. The group announced their intentions and exactly what they had on board. And there is video of the IDF firing on unarmed people on the boats. The IDF is lying again and this time the people had the s together and were live feeding the events as they happened. The Israel has been caught in a monumental lie.
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Avigdor Lieberman
could be a relative of alex libman.
what with all the spelling fuckups at ellis island
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1. G-d often judges us as groups, so take it up with Him.
Why do you say these things? It won't be taken seriously, only used as evidence that you're a fruitcake taking orders from an imaginary friend.
Where did I say that? Where did I ever mention holy war, or even insinuate that?
Here:
wheras the Jewish people as a whole were given Israel by G-d.
FYI, no they weren't. They were given Israel by the international government formed at the end of WW2. God is merely a convenient excuse to steal the land from it's previous inhabitants.
I don't care if you don't believe in G-d or not. I do. If you want to act like a retard about it, then do so, but leave me alone.
Jews were given Israel in 2849 (its 5770 now) by G-d. It never stopped being ours. In 1948, you have the modern (secular) state of Israel being formed. It isn't necessarily Jewish as the owners of "torahtruejews.com" assert.
While I am as it, since you're too ignorant to come up with your own sources for your unsupported assertions, I'll give you some of the best ammo you could come across before I knock it down. The best argument against my assertion would be to front the Documentary Hypothesis. The problem with it is that there isn't any proof to support it.
So, what you have is conjecture on one hand and your thumb up your ass in the other.
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Jews were given Israel in 2849 (its 5770 now) by G-d. It never stopped being ours.
We.
My ancestors decided your ancestors were unwelcome in Germany in 1937, and threw a major shit-fit about it. And now, theres still a bunch of their descendants in Idaho who feel pretty strongly about it.
Is it cool if I hook up with them, and start zeig-heiling all over the fuckin place? Because I personally think they were major assholes, but if you wanna revisit old-school beliefs, I guess I could give them a jingle.
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Heres the deal, Liebling. We are carbon. God doesn't exist. If you want to have beliefs, stop it with the goddamn "us". You are way too excited about the group. Drop some acid and drive your car out west, eat a bacon sandwich and forget about the jew bullshit for a while.
Learn to live on planet eartho as a human. Fuck a hooker in Reno. Drink beer and piss on a brick wall, in a town you've never heard of. Buy groceries from every aisle, whatever looks yummy. Get a job anywhere, and be one of the guys.
I would challenge any Jew anywhere, to forget about being a Jew. Completely. For five whole years. As a cleansing program, a complete reorganization of the mentality. You guys are into cleansing, right?
After five whole, complete years, of honest non-jew living. Then, decide if you want to re-become a Jew.
Those Jews would be some serious Jews, if they jumped back into it like woo-hoo! But I doubt any would want to.
Because I know just about everyone on this side of the fence, never really gives a shit. We get exposed to it all the time. If someone converts, its for their girl (or guy), or its a fad - like madonna with the kaballa bracelets. Whatever the fuck that was. I'm assuming she's over it by now.
I've known a couple jews, some were hardcore, some were not. One surprised me, since I don't pay much attention to details, I kinda thought he was Italian or Greek, something. He was just kinda swarthy, then I find out he's jewish. He says nah, I don't really give a shit. He was cool. I never really knew if he practiced on the sly, but I doubt it. I think he just had the early upbringing, then his mom basically quit sending him to jew stuff- which was probably fine with him. We used to smoke a lot of dope together, I can't imagine asking him about Israel and he gets all insane about it. He'd probly say they're assholes. But maybe he's different now. I donno.
I really do think you're whacked out on the kool-ade, bro. I know its hard to give it a rest if you're up to your eyeballs in it. But you probably should go taste the world. I really think its a bigger sin to allow your mortal time on earth to slide past, and not become a citizen of the world, unencumbered by the dreck thats being shoveled into your head. Then later, if you want, go back to it.
I'm not trying to tempt you like the white devil, I'm actually trying to offer you advice as a young man who will never again have the opportunity to live in the momentous occasion of a healthy free spirit. I have five direct cousins who are church, all from the same mother. One's a priest, one's a nun. One was a nun, and quit - after twenty-some years -hugely controversial within the family, and she's a fuckin saint, worked with retarded kids for a long time after... Two never became nuns. I'm not exactly talking out my asshole here, just because none of those five are me. Its not for everyone, bro.
The odd part is, the priest, he's a dick. The nun, I don't know her well. The one who dropped out, she's awesome, I know her really well, and she's very happy. The two who never became nuns, the are so mellow and centered, they have families and stuff. Excellent people, very balanced. You can probably see where this is going... I would have to say, if I rated the happiness of those people, I'd rate them in backwards order the non-joiners being the most happy.
And I honestly did not write this to bend my argument, it just came out fluid, the way I wrote it, stream-of-consciousness.
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Premeditated provocation by so-called "peace activists" ends in bloodshed (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=33809.msg600751#msg600751)
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"The Spanish and French governments called the action "disproportionate." The Italian foreign minister asked the European Union to investigate, and several nations, including Greece and Sweden, were summoning their Israeli ambassadors."
Looks like that much needed manufacturing base Israel needs to defend itself is starting to dry up. Israel is blowing up all it's bridges over troubled water. Dudes should have listened more to Simon and Garfunkel.
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"The Spanish and French governments called the action "disproportionate." The Italian foreign minister asked the European Union to investigate, and several nations, including Greece and Sweden, were summoning their Israeli ambassadors."
Looks like that much needed manufacturing base Israel needs to defend itself is starting to dry up. Israel is blowing up all it's bridges over troubled water. Dudes should have listened more to Simon and Garfunkel.
The USA response is very low key. I think they are hoping for some celebrity to fuck up so that the population will be distracted once they give their typical Israel was threatened bull shit speech. The ships were inspected by officials at the departure ports for weapons. The only thing these people had on board those ships to defend themselves with were parts of chairs or pipes. They did not have Apache war choppers, fully automatic weapons, bullet proof vests, the ship was not outfitted with cannons. It did however have a satellite uplink which was streaming video that bi-passed the Israeli attempts at jamming all signals. There video shows that the IDF fired upon the ship prior to boarding. Just before that feed was cut off by IDF commandos the last recorded words are in Hebrew telling people to shutup. If Israel had nothing to hide and was only doing this to make sure that no weapons got to Gaza why all the need for secrecy and surprise? They attacked in the middle of the night so filming is made more difficult, they attempted to jam all signals and they lied about the events.
One of the many lies the mouth pieces for Israel are trying to peddle.
The Israeli government's complete blackout of the actual incident has been accompanied by a public relations blitz from Israeli government spokespersons and government-hired private public relations firms, who have continued to repeat already disproven claims that the humanitarian aid would have been allowed through if the activists had only gone through the proper channels to bring the aid. In fact, virtually all of the items on board the ships are banned by the Israeli government as "security risks" – including crayons, pencils, medical equipment and building materials. Because Israel continues to ban these items from entering the Gaza Strip, many of the 30,000 buildings destroyed by Israel during last year's three-week long assault on Gaza cannot be rebuilt.
Award winning video illustrating why occupation is only creating more enemies.
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I saw a photo of the folks on the deck of that ship waving large kitchen knives. Sorry, but you don't run at anyone with a gun with a meat cleaver and not expect to get shot.
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Jews were given Israel in 2849 (its 5770 now) by G-d.
Where is the deed?
In the Torah.
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I saw a photo of the folks on the deck of that ship waving large kitchen knives. Sorry, but you don't run at anyone with a gun with a meat cleaver and not expect to get shot.
The aid ship was being shot at first and that was the closest thing to a weapon they had to defend themselves with at the time. If you are being shot at are you just going to let them shoot you or are you going to get whatever actions you can to defend yourself. And don't give me this take cover bullshit bullets will rip through most items if they are a large enough caliber. Again if the actions of the Israeli's were legitimate then why the need to jam signals and to attack in the middle of the night? They could have held back until it was daylight and invited reporters and international observers to watch their inspections of the ships for weapons. The reason they did not do this was because the IDF's actions were criminal and they knew they would not stand up to the light of day or the observations of objective scrutiny. The flotilla was inspected by the departure countries for weapons and found clean. The Aid flotilla intended to unload their supplies during the day and invited international reporters on board to observe that no weapons were being delivered. The blockade is not about keeping weapons out it is about punishing the civilian population of Gaza for voting in Hamas. Hamas was a reaction to the inability of the other Palestinian organizations to acquire a just peace agreement. The tighter the grip Israel places on the Gaza the more radicalized the people will become because they have nothing to lose.
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I don't think they were getting shot at until they charged the soldiers with large kitchen knives.
Fail.
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Jews were given Israel in 2849 (its 5770 now) by G-d.
Where is the deed?
In the Torah.
Where is the original Torah?
Copies are not valid unless notarized by G-d.
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Jews were given Israel in 2849 (its 5770 now) by G-d.
Where is the deed?
In the Torah.
Where is the original Torah?
Copies are not valid unless notarized by G-d.
The written Torah has been kept the same for thousands of years. Although I've always felt that before it was actually put to parchment (or animal skin as the case may be) that it's likely that it was changed around simply because of the fact that it was entirely orally recorded prior to that point. You know, like the game of telephone. But once it was written down I have very little doubt that it has stayed the same ever since. The people who transcribe Torahs are extremely freaking methodical. If they screw up one letter they have to start all over again pretty much.
If a transcriber were to screw up even one character on a finished Torah his career in Torah transcription would be completely over.
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Jews were given Israel in 2849 (its 5770 now) by G-d.
Where is the deed?
In the Torah.
Where is the original Torah?
Copies are not valid unless notarized by G-d.
The written Torah has been kept the same for thousands of years. Although I've always felt that before it was actually put to parchment (or animal skin as the case may be) that it's likely that it was changed around simply because of the fact that it was entirely orally recorded prior to that point. You know, like the game of telephone. But once it was written down I have very little doubt that it has stayed the same ever since. The people who transcribe Torahs are extremely freaking methodical. If they screw up one letter they have to start all over again pretty much.
If a transcriber were to screw up even one character on a finished Torah his career in Torah transcription would be completely over.
There is crazy new thing called the printing press.
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Jews were given Israel in 2849 (its 5770 now) by G-d.
Where is the deed?
In the Torah.
Where is the original Torah?
Copies are not valid unless notarized by G-d.
The written Torah has been kept the same for thousands of years. Although I've always felt that before it was actually put to parchment (or animal skin as the case may be) that it's likely that it was changed around simply because of the fact that it was entirely orally recorded prior to that point. You know, like the game of telephone. But once it was written down I have very little doubt that it has stayed the same ever since. The people who transcribe Torahs are extremely freaking methodical. If they screw up one letter they have to start all over again pretty much.
If a transcriber were to screw up even one character on a finished Torah his career in Torah transcription would be completely over.
There is crazy new thing called the printing press.
Also this thing called thousands of years of people living on earth and writing things down by hand before the invention of the printing press. I know, can you believe those people were so stupid 3000 years ago? How could they not have invented the printing press yet? Fucking morons, right? Or no, that's you. :shock:
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10338900.stm
Ultra-Orthodox to protest Israeli school ruling
Thousands of Israeli police have been deployed in Jerusalem ahead of planned protests by ultra-Orthodox Jews who are angry about a school segregation row.
Some 80 Ashkenazi parents face jail for defying a court ruling that forces them to send their daughters to school with Sephardi girls of Middle East origin.
The Ashkenazi parents, who are of European descent, want segregated classrooms because they say Sephardi families are not religious enough.
Two mass rallies are planned for today.
Some 10,000 police officers have been mobilised ahead of the demonstrations by supporters of the parents.
The families come from a strictly observant sect of Hasidic Jews called Slonim, who have Ashkenazi lineage.
According to organisers of the protests, tens of thousands of people will march through the streets of Jerusalem with the 40 couples, who will hand themselves over to the police in compliance with a Supreme Court ruling.
The parents face two weeks in jail for contempt of court.
They have pulled their children out of Beit Yaakov girls' school in the West Bank settlement of Immanuel, and set up lessons elsewhere in the settlement.
Another protest has been planned in Bnei Brak near Tel Aviv.
Religious differences
The Slonim parents say their objections are based on differences in religious observance between the Ashkenazi and Sephardi traditions.
Yakov Litzman, an MP from the ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazi party, United Torah Judaism (UTJ) told army radio there was "not a drop of racism" in the parents' decision.
"There is a set of rules (in the ultra-Orthodox community). We don't want televisions in the home, there are rules of modesty, we are against the internet," Mr Litzman was quoted as saying by AFP news agency.
"I don't want my daughter to be educated with a girl who has a TV at home."
The court had given the parents until Wednesday to send their children back to school. They refused.
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Does anyone know any details about small children born and surviving til liberation on consentration camps during the Holocaust? On 19-6 2010 FTL a older woman said she was married to such a person. Her husband's story sounded fascinating if true.
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Does anyone know any details about small children born and surviving til liberation on consentration camps during the Holocaust? On 19-6 2010 FTL a older woman said she was married to such a person. Her husband's story sounded fascinating if true.
Concentration camps? Not likely. Maybe she meant a ghetto.
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http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-guarding-hebron-vineyard-of-former-jewish-militant-1.303096
IDF guarding Hebron vineyard of former Jewish militant
By Anshel Pfeffer
Reservists in the Israel Defense Forces have been deployed at night to guard the vineyard of a head of the former Jewish underground in the Hebron area, a reserve officer says. This would violate the IDF's policy against guarding private property.
The former militant, Menachem Livni, was convicted in the 1980s for his role in the attack on an Islamic college in which three Palestinian students were killed. He received a life sentence, but president Chaim Herzog pardoned him after seven years.
A reserve engineering officer who can only be identified as 1st Lt. D. says he was ordered to post two soldiers each night to guard the agricultural plot near the Arab village of Bani Naim, east of Hebron, where Livni's vineyard is located. The lieutenant served with his unit in the Hebron area two months ago.
He said he asked his commanders to reconsider because the plot was not inhabited at night and the owner could hire a private security service. First Lt. D. was told the army was guarding the site and was given Livni's telephone number to help coordinate protection of the plot. The reserve officer said that after three weeks, another reserve unit guarded the site.
There have been many cases in which the army has protected agricultural land to head off friction or violence between Arabs and Jews in the West Bank. But in principle, the army does not provide security for private property.
A spokesman for the IDF said the army operates "according to security needs" and has not provided regular security at Livni's vineyard. A senior officer at Central Command told Haaretz that it was a mistake to station soldiers to guard the site at night and that the practice has been stopped.
For his part, Livni said "the site has been attacked hundreds of times by terrorists, and they have tried to wipe me out there at least seven times. The army doesn't provide protection there at night, but only when people are working there. And there has been no change in the security arrangements recently.
"I know that in the past there were reserve officers with leftist views who objected to protecting the place, but in [my] more than 20 years in the reserves, I guarded communities and agricultural areas in the north, in the south and in the [Jordan] Valley. And it never seemed to me to involve something that was not allowed."
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It's entirely possible it's the other way around and they are guarding everyone else from him.
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Except the vineyard is uninhabited at night.
I don't think I had heard of Menachem Livni before I read this article.
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Except the vineyard is uninhabited at night.
I don't think I had heard of Menachem Livni before I read this article.
Nor have I.
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time for kikes kiking kikily on kikes
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http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/11/11/2741699/us-to-store-more-weapons-in-israel
U.S. to store more weapons in Israel
November 11, 2010
(JTA) -- The United States will store an additional $400 million in emergency military equipment in Israel.
The new equipment, which is available to Israel in the event of an emergency, will bring to $1.2 billion by 2012 the amount of American military equipment being stockpiled in Israel.
Congress approved for storage in Israel the new weapons, which will arrive in Israel over the next two years, last month, but the story was first reported this week in the Defense News magazine, by its Israel-based reporter Barbara Opall-Rome.
The equipment includes smart bombs and other precision weaponry, according to reports.
The equipment can be used by U.S. troops in any part of the world when necessary. Some U.S. stockpiles of weapons were used by Israel during the second Lebanon war.
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I really thought I was getting into a thread about IDF and bikinis.
I am disappoint.
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I really thought I was getting into a thread about IDF and bikinis.
I am disappoint.
I'm using this as my epic Jew thread.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_8ZLZsV89Ns0/TN_zy2tT88I/AAAAAAAAA74/LFHmVzzj_NM/s800/rabbi-Shmuel-Eliyahu.jpg)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-holocaust-survivor-whose-life-is-in-danger-again-2134223.html
The Holocaust survivor whose life is in danger again
In the Israeli city of Safed, an 89-year-old man has been accused of treachery for welcoming Arab students. Catrina Stewart reports
Monday, 15 November 2010SHARE PRINTEMAILTEXT SIZE NORMALLARGEEXTRA LARGE
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Eli Tzavieli has been harassed for renting part of his house in Safed to Arabs
ENLARGE
First they threatened to burn his house down. Then they pinned leaflets to his front door, denouncing him as a Jewish traitor. But Eli Tzavieli, an 89-year-old Holocaust survivor, is defiant. His only "crime" is to rent out his rooms to three Arab students attending the college in Safed, a religious city in northern Israel that was until recently more famous for Jewish mysticism and Madonna.
A campaign waged by Shmuel Eliyahu, the town's radical head rabbi, culminating in a ruling barring residents from renting rooms to Israeli Arabs, means that Safed is fast emerging as a byword for racism.
"I'm not looking for trouble, but if there is a problem, I'll confront it," says Mr Tzavieli, a Jew who survived Nazi forced labour camps and whose parents perished in Auschwitz. "These [tenants] are great kids. And I'm doing my best to make them comfortable."
Related articles
Israelis weigh up US incentive plan to re-start peace talks
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At an emergency meeting last month, Mr Eliyahu, the son of a former chief rabbi of Israel, was joined by 17 other religious leaders in warning that the city's 40,000 Jewish residents were threatened with an "Arab takeover."
The declaration appeared to trigger a campaign of harassment against Mr Tsavieli to pressure him into throwing the students out. When the pensioner paid little heed to his aggressors, he received an anonymous threat to set fire to his house and a vicious poster campaign accused him of "returning the Arabs to Safed."
Mr Eliyahu, who once advocated the mass slaughter of Palestinians civilians in Gaza to stop the firing of Qassam rockets, declined to be interviewed for this story.
Sprawled over a hilltop in the Upper Galilee, Safed is one of Israel's most picturesque towns, enjoying commanding views over the north of the country. A leading centre for Kabbalah, or Jewish mysticism, it is one of Judaism's four holiest towns, and every year draws a diverse celebrity crowd.
In 1948, Safed was a mixed Jewish and Arab Palestinian community, with some 10,000 Palestinians living in the town. As Jewish forces battled for control, the Palestinians fled, including a 13-year-old Mahmoud Abbas, who would later become the Palestinian President.
After Israel's founding, some Palestinians accepted Israeli citizenship and remained in Israel, and now number 1.5 million, a fifth of the country's population.
These days, Safed is home to a large community of ultra-orthodox Jews, who are deeply conservative and observe a strict code of behaviour, including no driving or smoking in public on Shabbat, the Jewish Sabbath.
As Mr Tsavieli poses for a photograph outside the entrance to his home in Safed's Old City, a Jewish labourer shouts at him: "I'm warning you, it won't do you any good to attract attention like this."
The pensioner continues to smile, but it's clear that he's a little rattled. Sitting in his leafy courtyard, he talks about his extensive voluntary and social work, including time as a probation officer ("The moment you have a problem, Eli, you just let us know," a former inmate told him after hearing of the threats), and says that he's only trying to do "a good thing."
As he talks, Nimran Grefat, one of his Arab tenants, dashes in to pick up some books for his next class, stopping briefly to chat. "He's a good man, he's like a father to us," Mr Grefat, 19, says later of his landlord. "He told us: 'If someone hurts you, he hurts me.'"
Tension in the city ratcheted up a notch last month after a violent clash between a Jewish mob and Arab students. Thirty or so Jewish youths converged on a building rented to Arab students, throwing bottles and chanting "stinky Muslims" and "death to Arabs." The students retaliated by throwing stones, prompting an Israeli policeman to loose off rounds from his rifle. He was later charged along with a friend for firing live rounds.
Mr Grefat says that he is afraid, and even considered dropping his studies or moving into dorms. Encouraged by Mr Tsavieli to stick it out, he takes basic safety precautions, such as not returning home alone late at night. "I didn't come here to live," he says. "I'm not going to build a family here. I just came for three years to study, after which I'll go back to my village."
The tensions that many hoped were confined to Safed are spreading to other towns, too. The deputy mayor of Carmiel, a mere 30 kilometres from Safed, was recently sacked for anti-Arab statements and for employing a militia to prevent Arabs from entering the city.
Many civil rights defenders have warned that the events in Israel's north are not an isolated phenomenon, but rather a symptom of the growing racism and anti-Arab sentiment sparked by a political shift to the right in recent years.
"The government should be mitigating these tensions, but instead it is escalating them with new laws and a vacuum of decisions," said Ali Haider, a director at Sikkuy, an Israeli organisation committed to civic equality.
Several bills currently making their way through the Knesset have been slammed by liberal commentators as racist or anti-Arab, including a loyalty bill requiring new citizens to swear allegiance to a "Jewish and democratic" Israel. Moreover, small Jewish communities are lobbying to determine just who can and cannot move into their communities, a demand widely interpreted as a move to keep Arabs out.
Israel's firebrand Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has even proposed a population transfer in the event of a peace agreement that would see Israel's Arab citizens placed under Palestinian sovereignty.
These proposals have drawn a barrage of criticism from the left of the political spectrum, but observers say such ideas are moving into the mainstream, as evidenced by robust support for Mr Lieberman and his ultra-nationalist party, Yisrael Beitenu, Israel's third-largest party. Several Israeli commentators have sounded a note of alarm at exclusionary moves, warning that the prevailing trends in Israel are beginning to resemble Nazi-era policies.
"In other countries, in other eras, the selling and renting of homes to Jews was forbidden, and those who violated the ban were penalised harshly. We all remember where it ended up," wrote Ziv Lenchner in an op-ed on Israeli news site Ynet. "Well, do we really remember?"
But that argument cuts little ice in Safed, where many residents feel the 1,350 Arabs studying at the nearby college are an unsettling influence that threatens Safed's religious and Jewish character, not least because of fears of intermarriage.
"I see the Arabs here wearing gold chains, and it looks like Syria," says a young woman, who wears a modest headscarf to cover her hair. "This is an orthodox city, and [that] is impure."
A new medical school is to open in the area early next year, prompting concerns among Jews that it will bring even more Arabs to the town.
Moshe, 35, a music store manager, insists the issue is not one of racism, but that encouraging a large influx of Arabs into the city demonstrates a "blatant disregard" for the existing Jewish community. "Our experience of Arabs over the last 10 years is terror," he said. "Now they're saying, 'Let us be neighbours.' You don't force peace on people."
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US offers Israel over 33 million dollars a day to pause new settlement construction for 90 days.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/11/15/1927524/israelis-debate-swapping-settlements.html
Israelis debate swapping settlements freeze for U.S. jets
BY SHEERA FRENKEL
MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS
JERUSALEM -- Israeli defense officials urged the government Monday to accept a new U.S.-drafted deal to freeze Jewish settlement building temporarily in exchange for a $3 billion military package, including a U.S. gift of 20 F-35 stealth fighter jets.
But leading ministers in the Israeli Cabinet poured cold water on the proposal, and if it passes next Sunday, it will be with a razor-thin majority.
President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have praised the Israeli government for accepting the compromise, though Israel has yet to issue an official response to the deal.
"This is a very promising development and a serious effort by Israeli Prime Minister (Benjamin) Netanyahu," Clinton said Monday. "We are going to continue to do everything we possibly can to get the parties to begin the kind of serious, end-game negotiations that are necessary."
Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the money for the 20 stealth fighters "will come from the American administration, not from us."
Israel already receives $3 billion in annual aid from the United States, much of which is spent on military equipment. Israel already had ordered 20 of the jets, which are capable of traveling long distances undetected by radar. Israeli news media suggested that the jets could be used on a stealth mission, such as an attack on Iran's alleged nuclear weapons.
The deal also requires the United States to support Israel's position at the United Nations, and, according to Israeli news reports, to block recognition of any unilateral Palestinian move to declare independence.
In exchange, Israel would halt construction of Jewish settlements for 90 days, excluding East Jerusalem, enabling it to continue to build in a place that Palestinians hope will be the capital of a new Palestinian state.
Three former army chiefs of staff endorsed the U.S. proposal as an imperative step with military advantages that Israel couldn't afford to reject.
However, members of Netanyahu's Likud Party joined other coalition members from the right-wing Shas and Israeli Beitenu parties to assault the deal. Some of the parties in Netanyahu's right-wing coalition vowed to fight any deal that would limit settlement construction.
Vice Prime Minister Moshe Yaalon rejected the deal as a "honey trap," while other lawmakers said they would work to dismantle the government if the proposal were approved.
White House officials have struggled for months to reach a compromise that would push peace talks forward.
Palestinian leaders have refused to take part in the U.S.-sponsored talks unless Israel freezes all construction for Jewish settlers in the West Bank, on land the Palestinians said was earmarked for their future state.
Israeli officials have said that previous freezes did little to advance the talks and have accused the Palestinians of setting preconditions.
Palestinians have said that they haven't yet seen the deal, and that they'll issue a response once an official proposal is in their hands. Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat expressed alarm, however, that the proposal didn't include construction in East Jerusalem.
Erekat also questioned whether the deal would allow ongoing construction to continue. Since Israel's last settlement freeze expired Sept. 26, it has begun building at least 800 housing units, according to the anti-settlement organization Peace Now.
"We have a lot of questions over how serious this proposal is, and what will happen after the 90 days end. We need to see a real change in Israeli settlement policy, not a quick fix," said a Palestinian Authority official in Ramallah, West Bank, speaking only on the condition of anonymity because the Palestinian government wasn't yet officially considering the proposal.
"The Palestinian people have tired of the peace talks that go nowhere. We have prepared other options, like with the U.N., that we can now pursue," he added.
Palestinian officials have said they'd take their case to the U.N. if peace talks failed, and could ask the U.N. to approve independent Palestinian statehood irrespective of the Israeli position.
Netanyahu must take the deal to his Cabinet for approval, which he's expected to win by a majority of one vote.
(Frenkel is a McClatchy Newspapers special correspondent.)
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/11/15/1927524/israelis-debate-swapping-settlements.html#ixzz15SRa3yhX
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goddamned jews with their fucking hands in our pockets
FOR WHAT????
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goddamned jews with their fucking hands in our pockets
FOR WHAT????
Well, the Jew egg requires a nest of Federal Reserve Notes around it so it can have enough warmth in order to hatch.
The Jew can shift forms into the cockroach, the snake, and the homosexual, so one should be careful when the Jew egg hatches.
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Well, the Jew egg requires a nest of Federal Reserve Notes around it so it can have enough warmth in order to hatch.
The Jew can shift forms into the cockroach, the snake, and the homosexual, so one should be careful when the Jew egg hatches.
:lol:
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Jews don't come from eggs. They are the offspring of apes and pigs.
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goddamned jews with their fucking hands in our pockets
FOR WHAT????
Don't blame the Jews. Blame the Israelis. And of all things to blame them for, the last thing in that line shouldn't be accepting the money America is offering them. Seriously, you're holding it against them that they're being offered money?
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goddamned jews with their fucking hands in our pockets
FOR WHAT????
Don't blame the Jews. Blame the Israelis.
I don't know if you have heard, but the Israeli government is run by Jews. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be blaming the Arab Israelis for the policies of Israel.
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I don't know if you have heard, but the Israeli government is run by Jews. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be blaming the Arab Israelis for the policies of Israel.
They're Jewish in the technical sense, but how much of their policy, and ideals are determined by the word of G-d?
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I don't know if you have heard, but the Israeli government is run by Jews. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be blaming the Arab Israelis for the policies of Israel.
They're Jewish in the technical sense, but how much of their policy, and ideals are determined by the word of G-d?
I dunno, how religious *is* Israel, anyway?
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I don't know if you have heard, but the Israeli government is run by Jews. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be blaming the Arab Israelis for the policies of Israel.
They're Jewish in the technical sense, but how much of their policy, and ideals are determined by the word of G-d?
Not much. But that doesn't take away the fact that Israel was founded as a "Jewish Nation", and is still run that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Jewish_and_Democratic_State
The Jewish nature of the state of Israel was outlined already in Israel's Declaration of Independence, as it was read during the Proclamation ceremony in 14 May 1948. The document defines the state of Israel as "A Jewish State in Eretz-Israel [land of Israel]"
Check out this awesome link I found.
http://officialmessiah.org/page.php?14
New Message from YHWH Elohim to the Jewish People
I, Yhwh, through the mouth of my Prophet, RAEL, your awaited Messiah, am sending you this ultimate message on this day of Passover 5769, particularly special being also Birchat HaChama, reminding you of our creation of life on Earth. The first Messages that RAEL transmitted to you were a reminder that the time had come for you to return to the land of IsRael. But in no way did this signify that you were to steal the Palestinian’s land and houses and massacre them. You were supposed to have been Zionists AND Palestinians. You were to have come back peacefully to this Holy Land, non-violently, and allow yourselves to be welcomed fraternally and with love by the people living there, who are genetically your brothers.
By combining the wonderful resources that you acquired during centuries of Diaspora with the talent of the local populations, you could have created a wealthy and powerful state that could have been an example for the entire world. That was your Sacred Mission. Instead, you stole the lands, houses, and belongings of the Palestinian people, you forced them into mass exile, you forbade them from coming back to their homes, you forced them to live in concentration camps, where you recently bombarded them in a genocide that transformed the chosen People into a criminal people acting against humanity and which betrayed its mission where it should have been an example and Spiritual Guide for humanity.
You created a state where racism and discrimination reign, you who suffered so much from this scourge for centuries and who know better than anyone how unbearable and despicable that was. Centuries of suffering and wandering and the ultimate sacrifice of the Shoah brought you feelings of compassion from the entire world, who were ready to help you find security in the Promised Land as announced. The Nations of the Earth would have supported you in the creation of a multiracial and multicultural Palestinian state that would have been an example for the entire world. Instead of that, you used violence to impose a racist and violent state that despises life and Rights of all non-jews and which has become no less than a cancer for Humanity, a state that you as the chosen People, had been mandated with guiding towards more love, non violence, tolerance and consciousness.
You have totally betrayed your spiritual mission, the only one that justified your return to the land of IsRael. Because, to be Zionist without being spiritual and religious, is pure racism and is totally unacceptable. You only have the right and the duty to be Zionist and Palestinian.
The monstrous and criminal state that you have created is condemned to disappear quickly and the Jews who will attempt to preserve it from the inside or out will forever be cursed and will lose their Jewishness, that is to say, they will exclude themselves from the chosen people. The State of IsRael has to disappear and be replaced by a Palestinian State where Jews and Palestinians can live in harmony, where the two peoples will mutually accept the Right of return of the Jews and the Palestinians of the two diasporas, in a sweeping effort of mutual forgiveness, which will be the most beautiful example of love and fraternity conceivable for all of Humanity.
Only those Jews who, in the past and until this day, have struggled from the inside and outside of IsRael against this zionist racism, against the creation of the currently racist state of IsRael, retain their Right to Jewishness, that is to say, to remain worthy to be part of the chosen people. The others, I vomit them from my mouth. They are not even equal to the other non-chosen people. They are inferior to all living beings of the creation. They are not even at the level of animals. As such they don’t deserve to live in the Land of IsRael and they and their children for 7 generations are condemned to an eternal exile, to a permanent diaspora.
Those who today, reading this Message, understand their mistakes and start to militate for a Palestinian zionism that is to say, a return to the Land of IsRael as a multiracial and multicultural state, where Muslims, Christians and Jews can live in harmony and with equal rights, those will have their crimes forgiven. You, Jews of the diaspora, who are sufficiently spiritual and religious to have had the consciousness not to have associated yourselves with the zionist crimes, I tell you it is time to prepare your return to the Land of IsRael once this land peacefully becomes a multicultural Palestinian State.
Lastly, to speed up this process you all need to unite to prepare the construction of the Third Temple, Our Embassy and the glorious return of our beloved son, our last and ultimate messenger, the Messiah Rael, who will bring centuries of peace on Earth with our return. Every minute counts and remember that you cannot say we did not warn you. While some of our previous Messages sent by our Prophets of old gave you centuries to be accomplished, this one here only leaves you a few years, or even months. It is time once again to abandon the stiff neck and with humility become real chosen people once more, the people of love, truth and non-violence on the path that I, Yhwh, your Creator, have marked out for you. This path which leads to the Promised Land which is indeed an entire planet and not a piece of land delimited by borders.
Amen
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I don't know if you have heard, but the Israeli government is run by Jews. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be blaming the Arab Israelis for the policies of Israel.
They're Jewish in the technical sense, but how much of their policy, and ideals are determined by the word of G-d?
I dunno, how religious *is* Israel, anyway?
Not all that much.
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http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=197730
Chief of staff visits Carmel fires; Haifa police chief critically injured; 40 prison guards killed on bus; fire-fighting crews, planes attempt to control fire in North amidst heavy winds.
The IDF allocated all of its resources on Thursday to assist the Fire and Rescue Service in battling the blaze that had engulfed the Carmel Mountain region and claimed the lives of at least 40 people.
IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi visited the Fire and Rescue Service’s command post in the North and said that the military will do all it could to help extinguish the fire.
The IDF Home Front Command had established a command post near the scene of the blaze and was coordinating relief efforts together with the Northern Police District.
Forces were assisting in evacuating neighborhoods in Tirat Carmel after the fire began to surround the eastern part of the city. Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) were also diverted to the scene of the fire to assist fire fighters in tracking its direction.
RELATED:
Carmel fire: Barak instructs IDF to mobilize forces
Aharonovitch confirms 3 still missing; search continues
The head of the Haifa Police, Dep.-Cmdr. Ahuva Tomer, was critically
injured in the fire and she was evacuated to the Rambam Medical
Center and was suffering from severe burns.
Also as a result of the fires 40 prison wardens who were en route to the Damon
Prison burned to death in a bus caught up in the blaze .
The wardens were meant to assist in the
evacuation of some 500 prisoners from the facility, situated near
Kibbutz Beit Oren, when their vehicle became engulfed in fast moving
flames which had spread to the narrow mountain road linking Atlit to
Kibbutz Bet Oren.
A firefighter spokesman said the blaze had traveled 1500 meters in less than three minutes, adding, "the bus had no chance. They tried to escape but were burned alive. It was a horrific scene."
The spokesman added that the fire was very far from the road on which the bus was traveling when it first set off towards the prison, but had spread far faster than expected.
Fire and Rescue Commissioner Shimon Romach added that the firefighting operation would be limited to ground forces after sunset, since fire planes cannot be used at night. "I don't think we will get control of this tonight," he added.
Thousands of dunams have gone up in flames in the Carmel forest between Haifa University and Ussafiya, and it remains unclear how the incident will end at this stage.
Police described the incident as a "major disaster. Many of the dead are from the security forces, and include civilians. The fire is continuing to spread and is endangering many areas."
Police have asked the public to stay clear of the whole area.
Traffic Police sealed off Route 4 between Beit Oren and Haifa over fears that fires could spread to the Atlit-Tirat Hacarmel area. Police have instructed drivers to use Routes 2 or 6 instead and to stay away from the area.
The area in question contains heavy brush which burns easily,
according
to firefighters. This fact coupled with strong winds has prompted the
evacuations and the presence of multiple fire crews brought in to help
with the blaze from various districts in the country.
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I dunno, how religious *is* Israel, anyway?
Jewish enough to have rabbis on the payroll.
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/12/07/2742052/dozens-of-israeli-rabbis-forbid-renting-to-gentiles
Dozens of Israeli rabbis forbid renting to gentiles
December 7, 2010
JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Dozens of Israel's municipal chief rabbis have signed on to a religious ruling that forbids renting homes to gentiles, and more specifically to Arabs.
The ruling, which became public on Tuesday, comes less than two months after leading rabbis in the northern Israeli city of Safed signed on to a letter drafted by the city's chief rabbi calling on Jews not to rent to non-Jews in the northern Israeli city, as well as a month after rabbis in the haredi Orthodox Israeli city of Bnei Brak issued a religious ruling forbidding residents to rent apartments to African refugees, echoing a similar ruling for southern Tel Aviv.
Those signing the letter include the chief rabbis of Ramat Hasharon, Ashdod, Kiryat Gat, Rishon Letzion, Carmiel, Gadera, Afula, Nahariya, Herzliya, Nahariya and Pardes Hannah. Top national-religious Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, signed the letter, as did Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, son of Shas spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. Top Haredi leader Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv also signed the letter.
Municipal chief rabbis' salaries are paid for by the state,
The ruling states that renting to non-Jews and Arabs will deflate the value of the home and of homes in the area. It says that neighbors of those who are renting or considering selling to non-Jews or Arabs should first warn the neighbor personally, and it the behavior continues to notify the community. The offending landlord, according to the ruling, must be ignored and not be called to the Torah for an aliyah,
Israeli civil rights organizations and Knesset members criticized ruling. They called for rabbis signing on to the ruling to be fired from their jobs.
The Association for Civil Rights in Israel said on Tuesday called on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to condemn the ruling and take action against those who signed on to it.
"Rabbis who are civil servants have an obligation to the entire public, including Israel's Arab citizens. It is unthinkable that they would use their public status to promote racism and incitement," read a statement from ACRI, issued Tuesday.
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-slams-top-rabbis-call-to-forbid-renting-homes-to-arabs-1.329384
* Published 21:39 07.12.10
* Latest update 21:39 07.12.10
Netanyahu slams top rabbis' call to forbid renting homes to Arabs
The prime minister says such things cannot be said in a democratic country, emphasizes that anti-Arab declarations are not acceptable in Israel.
By Barak Ravid and Chaim Levinson
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday harshly condemned a move by a number of leading rabbis who signed on a ruling to forbid renting and selling homes to Arabs.
"How would we feel if we were told not to sell an apartment to Jews?" asked Netanyahu. "We would protest, and we protest now when it is said of our neighbors."
Earlier on Tuesday, a number of top rabbis who signed on to a religious ruling to forbid renting homes to gentiles – a move particularly aimed against Arabs – defended their decision with the declaration that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews.
"Racism originated in the Torah," said Rabbi Yosef Scheinen, who heads the Ashdod Yeshiva. "The land of Israel is designated for the people of Israel. This is what the Holy One Blessed Be He intended and that is what the [sage] Rashi interpreted."
Speaking at the National Bible Contest for adults, Netanyahu emphasized that such declarations are not acceptable in Israel.
"Such things cannot be said, not about Jews and not about Arabs. They cannot be said in any democratic country, and especially not in a Jewish and democratic one. The state of Israel rejects these sayings."
Education Minister Gideon Saar also related to the rabbis' letter during his speech at the Bible contest on Tuesday evening, saying that the Torah commands one to have good relations with Gentiles.
Concurrently, dozens of people gathered in front of Independence Hall in Tel Aviv for a spontaneous demonstration against the rabbis' letter forbidding the sale or rental of properties to Arabs or other non-Jews.
A number of cultural figures were present at the demonstration, including Meretz MK Nitzan Horowitz. Horowitz said, "These people receive a salary from the state and break the law. As a Jew and an Israeli, I am embarrassed that these men are municipal rabbis."
Horowitz continued, "There is no connection between what they preach, and Judaism. In the Declaration of Independence [of the State of Israel] it states that everyone has equal rights. We see a wave of fascism and racism that is trying to cut off sectors of Israeli society."
Gilad Kariv, head of the Reform Judaism movement in Israel, said, "The fire of racism will completely destroy Israeli society. If there is a lesson to be learned from what took place over the weekend, it is the danger of complacency. The rabbinical decree is abominable, and desecrates the seal of God that lies within every human being."
The director Ibtisam Mara'ana said, "Instead of lighting a Hanukkah candle, I would like to light a memorial candle and say Kaddish, the Prayer of the Dead, for the democratic state that we once had."
Mara'ana continued, "The rabbis took advantage of the state and usurped it for themselves. It is not only the state of the Jews. Today it is against Ibtisam the Arab, and tomorrow against Esther the lesbian, and next week against a woman with her hair exposed."
On Tuesday morning, it was revealed that dozens of Israel's municipal chief rabbis signed on to a ruling urging Jews to refrain from renting or selling apartments to non-Jews.
In their ruling, the rabbis called on the religious community to voice support Safed Chief Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, who could face trial for incitement against Arabs for initiating the move against renting to gentiles.
Minority Affairs Minister Avishay Braverman has also asked Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman to begin the process of suspending Eliyahu immediately from his post as municipal rabbi.
Politicos from the national religious sector believe that the mass of prominent figures who signed on to the ruling – all of whose salaries are paid by public funds - will send a message to the attorney general to take Eliyahu's position seriously.
Upon news of the religious ruling, Meretz faction whip Ilan Ghilon immediately asked the attorney general to dismiss each of the rabbis who had signed their names.
"We are witnessing an epidemic of racism and xenophobia and we must act firmly," he said.
Deputy Knesset chairman MK Ahmed Tibi decried the letter as a "mass crime [committed] by a group of racist rabbis who should be given intensive course in Jewish history."
"The entire group should be tried for "incitement to racism," added Tibi, "Muslim clerics have recently been tried or fired from their jobs for much less but the rabbis are able to pursue their unruly behavior without concern.
Among the rabbis that signed the letter are the following: Yaakov Edelstein of Ramat Hasharon, Yosef Sheinin of Ashdod, David Wolfa of Rishon Letsion, Avraham Margalit of Carmiel, Simcha Hacohen of Rehovot, Yitzhak Yaakobovitch from Herzliya, and David Tsedakah from Pardes Hannah.
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It is a crime to tell someone they have "a dirty Jew face" in France.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20469566,00.html
(http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2011/news/110307/galliano-300.jpg)
John Galliano's troubles may have multiplied over the weekend as a second complaint of alleged anti-Semitism was formally lodged against Dior's chief designer – and a bombshell video surfaced showing the designer declaring: "I love Hitler."
..
Though none of those allegedly on the receiving end of Galliano's outbursts are, in fact, Jewish, under French law the making of anti-Semitic remarks qualifies as "incitement to racial prejudice," a criminal offense that potentially carries a sentence of up to six months in prison.
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It is a crime to tell someone they have "a dirty Jew face" in France.
John Galliano's troubles may have multiplied over the weekend as a second complaint of alleged anti-Semitism was formally lodged against Dior's chief designer – and a bombshell video surfaced showing the designer declaring: "I love Hitler."
Though none of those allegedly on the receiving end of Galliano's outbursts are, in fact, Jewish, under French law the making of anti-Semitic remarks qualifies as "incitement to racial prejudice," a criminal offense that potentially carries a sentence of up to six months in prison.
Galliano was drunk off his face when he made the statement and there was no context to the video. It could have been a sad attempt at making fun of NeoNazis for all anyone knows and selective editing was possibly being used to ruin his career. At least freedom of speech is one of the few freedoms left in the USA.
The state doesn't need to step in for such statements. The social pressure of the people who will refuse to purchase from him or his employer firing him is more than sufficient punishment.
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It is a crime to tell someone they have "a dirty Jew face" in France.
John Galliano's troubles may have multiplied over the weekend as a second complaint of alleged anti-Semitism was formally lodged against Dior's chief designer – and a bombshell video surfaced showing the designer declaring: "I love Hitler."
Though none of those allegedly on the receiving end of Galliano's outbursts are, in fact, Jewish, under French law the making of anti-Semitic remarks qualifies as "incitement to racial prejudice," a criminal offense that potentially carries a sentence of up to six months in prison.
Galliano was drunk off his face when he made the statement and there was no context to the video. It could have been a sad attempt at making fun of NeoNazis for all anyone knows and selective editing was possibly being used to ruin his career. At least freedom of speech is one of the few freedoms left in the USA.
The state doesn't need to step in for such statements. The social pressure of the people who will refuse to purchase from him or his employer firing him is more than sufficient punishment.
I wonder if Cambodians are as touchy about Pol Pot.
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It is a crime to tell someone they have "a dirty Jew face" in France.
John Galliano's troubles may have multiplied over the weekend as a second complaint of alleged anti-Semitism was formally lodged against Dior's chief designer – and a bombshell video surfaced showing the designer declaring: "I love Hitler."
Though none of those allegedly on the receiving end of Galliano's outbursts are, in fact, Jewish, under French law the making of anti-Semitic remarks qualifies as "incitement to racial prejudice," a criminal offense that potentially carries a sentence of up to six months in prison.
Galliano was drunk off his face when he made the statement and there was no context to the video. It could have been a sad attempt at making fun of NeoNazis for all anyone knows and selective editing was possibly being used to ruin his career. At least freedom of speech is one of the few freedoms left in the USA.
The state doesn't need to step in for such statements. The social pressure of the people who will refuse to purchase from him or his employer firing him is more than sufficient punishment.
I wonder if Cambodians are as touchy about Pol Pot.
I dunno, the evidence for Pol Pot's Hebraic origins are sketchy at best.
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It is a crime to tell someone they have "a dirty Jew face" in France.
John Galliano's troubles may have multiplied over the weekend as a second complaint of alleged anti-Semitism was formally lodged against Dior's chief designer – and a bombshell video surfaced showing the designer declaring: "I love Hitler."
Though none of those allegedly on the receiving end of Galliano's outbursts are, in fact, Jewish, under French law the making of anti-Semitic remarks qualifies as "incitement to racial prejudice," a criminal offense that potentially carries a sentence of up to six months in prison.
Galliano was drunk off his face when he made the statement and there was no context to the video. It could have been a sad attempt at making fun of NeoNazis for all anyone knows and selective editing was possibly being used to ruin his career. At least freedom of speech is one of the few freedoms left in the USA.
The state doesn't need to step in for such statements. The social pressure of the people who will refuse to purchase from him or his employer firing him is more than sufficient punishment.
I wonder if Cambodians are as touchy about Pol Pot.
That would be interesting to know. Pol Pot was every bit and much a bastard as Hitler. Didn't Pol Pot say something like a bullet is cheaper than keeping a prisoner? Even so Vietnam was another war the USA had no business getting involved with.
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Even so Vietnam was another war the USA had no business getting involved with.
Oh bullshit.
One oft overlooked remnant of war is it's cultural residue. Have you any idea what value our society has gained in characters played by Sylvester Stallone, Chuck Norris, et al?
Some say the war was lost. But look who's still poling canoes down Mekong! VHS rentals alone probably made many American men rich. Not to mention profits made from sales of survival knives, fatigues & berets, etc. God and Capitalism is always a winning force.
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Even so Vietnam was another war the USA had no business getting involved with.
Oh bullshit.
One oft overlooked remnant of war is it's cultural residue. Have you any idea what value our society has gained in characters played by Sylvester Stallone, Chuck Norris, et al?
Some say the war was lost. But look who's still poling canoes down Mekong! VHS rentals alone probably made many American men rich. Not to mention profits made from sales of survival knives, fatigues & berets, etc. God and Capitalism is always a winning force.
This...
almost sounds like a
LIBMAN post!
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/israel-may-ask-u-s-for-20-billion-more-in-security-aid-barak-says-1.347866
Israel may ask U.S. for $20 billion more in security aid, Barak says
Defense Minister tells Wall Street Journal that Israel must be on guard considering the unrest sweeping the Arab world, adding increased aid could help make Israel a 'stabilizer in such a turbulent region'.
By Haaretz Service and News Agencies
Israel may request an addition $20 billion in military aid from the United States in light of the unrest sweeping the Arab world, Defense Minister Ehud Barak told The Wall Street Journal in an interview published Monday.
Barak deemed the changes in the region a "movement in the right direction", and said that in the long run, Israel should not fear the "movement of Arab societies toward modernity."
But in the more immediate future, he told the WSJ, Israel would have to contend with the fact that Iran and Syria "might be the last to feel the heat" and join the trend of unrest.
In addition, Barak said, Egypt's new leaders may adhere to the country's 32-year peace treaty "for the time being," but could eventually succumb to popular pressure against it.
He also told the WSJ that a top Egyptian official recently warned him that the new government in Cairo was likely to change its attitude toward Israel unless the latter made serious efforts for peace with the Palestinians.
"He told me, 'We're going to have a really open election....Civic parties will hire advisers from the U.S. and Europe and find immediately that what can bring them voters is hostility to America and Israel," Barak said in the interview.
While Israel did not face an immediate threat to its security, Barak told the WSJ, "The issue of qualitative military aid for Israel becomes more essential for us, and I believe also more essential for you [the U.S.].
"It might be wise to invest another $20 billion to upgrade the security of Israel for the next generation or so," he said, adding: "A strong, responsible Israel can become a stabilizer in such a turbulent region."
Barak also told the WSJ that Israel was likely to offer Palestinians a state within temporary, detailing for the first time an emerging Israeli plan for breaking the deadlocked peace negotiations.
Though the Palestinians repeatedly have rejected provisional statehood, Ehud
Barak told The Wall Street Journal that Israel or the United States would have to give assurances that a full-fledged agreement on permanent statehood would follow.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is likely to offer the Palestinians a state with temporary borders, he said. Only afterward, would the two sides would resolve key issues of the conflict, such as competing claims to Jerusalem and the fate of Palestinian refugees, Barak added.
No details of the plan were given.
With the popular protests shaking up the Mideast, Netanyahu is under fierce international pressure to prove he is serious about getting peacemaking moving again, especially after the U.S. vetoed a UN Security Council resolution condemning Israel's West Bank settlement construction last month.
In the past week, Israeli officials have said Netanyahu was considering a phased approach. Although that was widely interpreted to mean a temporary state, they would not say so explicitly. Barak was the first to publicly spell that out.
Government spokesman Mark Regev said Barak's remark can stand on its own.
The prime minister is said to be planning a speech - possibly to be delivered in Washington - in which he will outline his plans.
It is not clear that the U.S. would support the idea of an interim accord, given the Palestinians' categorical rejection of the notion.
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NO Hell No. Someone needs to tell Israel the US is bankrupt. No foreign aid to anyone period.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/israel-expand-settlements-family-killing
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/israel-expand-settlements-family-killing
Not to sound conspiratorial or anything, because I hae absolutely no idea if this happened or not, but I wouldnt doubt it at all if it were found that the Israeli army did this to push their agenda forward. Not taking sides here because I believe the Palestinians pull the same bullshit games on Israel as well, committing heinous acts against their own people to make Israel look bad.
For this reason, I am always suspicious when I hear stories like this. Maybe its completely true. I have no idea, but with so much to gain from one side when something happens to them, how can anyone believe anything they hear?
"4 or 5 lives of my own people sacrificed for a larger agenda? No sweat!!! Consider it done!!"
People have been killed for a half pack of cigarettes, so its hard for me to understand how anyone can doubt this bullshit happens on a larger scale.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/israel-expand-settlements-family-killing
Not to sound conspiratorial or anything, because I hae absolutely no idea if this happened or not, but I wouldnt doubt it at all if it were found that the Israeli army did this to push their agenda forward. Not taking sides here because I believe the Palestinians pull the same bullshit games on Israel as well, committing heinous acts against their own people to make Israel look bad.
For this reason, I am always suspicious when I hear stories like this. Maybe its completely true. I have no idea, but with so much to gain from one side when something happens to them, how can anyone believe anything they hear?
"4 or 5 lives of my own people sacrificed for a larger agenda? No sweat!!! Consider it done!!"
People have been killed for a half pack of cigarettes, so its hard for me to understand how anyone can doubt this bullshit happens on a larger scale.
Dude, that sounds pretty fucking wacked. I don't pretend how you would think any Jewish soldier would be able, or willing to murder a family of five for any reason.
If you think there aren't Arabs capable of such things, here is a historical refresher:
Arabs murdering schoolchildren http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalot_massacre
More murdered children http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avivim_school_bus_massacre
Here is an instance of an Arab murdering a child by smashing her head against a rock. How civilized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einat_Haran
Some Arabs murdering an innocent wheelchair-bound man and pushing him into the sea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Achille_Lauro
Least you think it's about settlements, here is a massacre that happened before Israel was granted statehood http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
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I dont think you understand where im coming from.
Those examples you gave of arabs doing those things................ dont suprise me at all.
Im saying ANY governments military is caplable of this shit. Israeli, Muslim states, US, whatever. I have no horse in this race. You think Jewish soldiers are on some kind of higher ground than other soldiers? Come on man.
Sure, there are good soldiers that want to do good things, but then there are bad ones, maybe even what you would consider evil ones.
They're all fucked if you ask me. At the root, they're all fucking animals. They'll eat each other if it comes down to it.
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I don't pretend how you would think any Jewish soldier would be able, or willing to murder a family of five for any reason.
The IDF is the most moral army in the world. Maybe it was a Jewish settler. They seem have many pieces of shit among them.
It probably was an Arab. Think of it as the "price tag" for having settlement. It seems to be one the Jews are more than willing to pay.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-settlers-funeral-20110314,0,4981914.story
Israel vows to expand settlements after stabbings
As thousands of Israelis gathered Sunday to bury five members of a family of Jewish settlers who were stabbed to death in their beds over the weekend, the government said it would respond to the attack by building an additional 500 homes in the West Bank.
Israeli security forces continued their manhunt for unknown infiltrators who broke into the heavily guarded settlement of Itamar, south of Nablus, and killed Udi and Ruth Fogel and three of their children, including an infant. The military has named no suspects, but officials are blaming Palestinian militants for the attack.
The government decision to expand housing construction in several large settlement blocs was intended to signal that Israel's presence in the West Bank will not be deterred by violence, officials said.
"This murder reminds everyone that the struggle and conflict is not about Israel's borders or about independence of a repressed nation, but a struggle for our existence," Vice Prime Minister Moshe Yaalon said at the funeral. "In this difficult hour we must rise from the rubble and do the most natural thing: continue building and developing Israel."
Earlier in the day, Interior Minister Eli Yishai said Israel should build 1,000 new homes in the West Bank for every Israeli who is killed there.
Palestinian leaders condemned the attack but criticized Israel's decision to accelerate settlements, saying it would heighten tensions and complicate peace efforts.
Palestinian Authority spokesman Nabil abu Rudaineh called the expansion "wrong, unacceptable and rejected. The climate created by this decision brings nothing more than trouble. Peace needs courageous decisions."
The plans dimmed hopes of restarting U.S.-brokered peace talks, which collapsed last year. Israel's settlement construction has been a key obstacle to resuming negotiations. Palestinians have refused to enter talks as long as building continues in the West Bank, where they hope to one day have their own state. Most of the international community views the settlements as illegal because they are built on land seized by Israel during the 1967 war.
Emotions ran high around the country Sunday as government officials, prominent rabbis and friends and supporters of the Fogel family gathered in Jerusalem to offer support and condolences to surviving family members, including three other children who escaped harm. Many of the eulogies and mourners called for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to expand settlement construction and resist calls to make concessions to Palestinians.
The pressure is raising doubts about whether Netanyahu will proceed with what his aides had promised would be new peace initiative, expected to be unveiled in a speech in the coming weeks.
"The murder in Itamar places a huge question mark over the planned speech, particularly if it ignites a new wave of violence between Arabs and Jews," wrote Israel's Haaretz newspaper on Sunday.
In the West Bank, mobs of angry settlers have launched a string of revenge attacks against Palestinian villages, setting up roadblocks, throwing stones at Palestinians, raiding homes and burning cars in several towns, Palestinians said.
Fanning the public anger was the release by settler groups of what appear to be military crime-scene photographs, depicting the bloodied bodies of the victims with their faces digitally obscured. They said the family approved the release of the gruesome pictures in an effort to demonstrate the brutality of the attack.
Settler groups offered lukewarm praise for Netanyahu's approval of additional housing, which is expected be built in settlements such as Maale Adumim, Ariel, Kiryat Sefer and Gush Etzion. Over the last six months, critics have accused Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak of quietly restricting construction permits.
"This decision by the government is a small step in the right direction," said Danny Dayan, head of the settler group Yesha Council. But he added, "It is deeply troubling that it requires the murder of children in the arms of their parents to achieve such an objective."
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I dont think you understand where im coming from.
Those examples you gave of arabs doing those things................ dont suprise me at all.
Im saying ANY governments military is caplable of this shit. Israeli, Muslim states, US, whatever. I have no horse in this race. You think Jewish soldiers are on some kind of higher ground than other soldiers? Come on man.
Sure, there are good soldiers that want to do good things, but then there are bad ones, maybe even what you would consider evil ones.
They're all fucked if you ask me. At the root, they're all fucking animals. They'll eat each other if it comes down to it.
Yes. Look at history.
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Look at history.
When I do, I try to figure out why the Jews got kicked out of place after place.
Is it because they make good neighbors?
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Look at history.
When I do, I try to figure out why the Jews got kicked out of place after place.
Is it because they make good neighbors?
I believe the Jews get fucked with partially because they are a relatively small, strong willed group that is steadfastly loyal to their faith for the most part that dont take shit for very long. The big guys dont like that. History is filled with examples of this. Having said that, I still think they will do whatever it takes to make themselves look victimized even though that might not be the case. How do you know for sure if its a false flag event or a real case of being victimized?
Fuck, who knows, maybe they really were killed by palestinians, maybe some guy was fucking the neighbors wife and the guy whacked his family, maybe it was a drug deal gone bad. Nobody knows for sure, so to assume anything without proof is just disingenuous and dangerous.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu
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I get with Quickmike is saying both sides are just as likely to play the part of the victim to further their side. It was well documented that this was true in the UN Goldstone report.
It was extremely irresponsible to affix blame for the crime with no evidence of who was behind it. This makes the case that the accusation was only done for political gain or possibly to throw the investigation away from the actual perpetrators. The timing is very convent as it can be used to prevent peace talks and to justify more money being stolen from American tax payers.
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[youtube]H-rO-sUb0DE[/youtube]
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
1. It's still unknown who killed the Fogel family. Do you have any proof to back up your claim that it was a Palestinian? I think it must have been a ninja, or the Mossad, as they left no evidence.
2. All of this has gotten media coverage. I read about it every day. I also read jews complaining about how it's not getting enough media coverage, especially after they decided to release the picture of the dead kids, and no one wanted to publish them.
3. You left out the seizing of the Victoria ship cargo last week (http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=212367), which had C-704 anti-ship missles.
The IDF released a preliminary list on Wednesday of the weaponry found on the Victoria ship.
The ship's cargo included: 230 mortar shells 120 mm, 2,270 mortar shells, 60 mm, 6 C-704 anti-ship missiles, 2 radar systems manufactured in England, 2 launchers, 2 hydraulic mounting cranes for the radar system and 66,960 bullets for Kalashnikov rifles.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-s-latest-pr-bid-has-failed-1.349676
Israel's latest PR bid has failed
Netanyahu wants to sell the missiles' capture as proof of the Palestinians' murderous intentions, but the U.S. and Europe clearly distinguish between the PA and Islamic organizations.
Israel's chance of achieving political or PR gain out of the takeover of the Iranian missile shipment to Gaza was limited from the start. The authorities' strange conduct at the display at the Ashdod port yesterday reduced it to zero.
The intelligence community, which provided early and accurate information about the weapons on the ship the Victoria, did impressive work this week. The naval commandos also accomplished their mission flawlessly. But in the present circumstances, it's very hard to translate the achievement into diplomatic currency.
The problem is not only the world media coverage, which is mostly dedicated to the disaster in Japan this week. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is still thwarting the American and European pressure to initiate a move toward the Palestinians, wants to sell the missiles' capture as proof of the Palestinians' murderous intentions. On the face of it, after the horrific massacre in Itamar last weekend, this should have been an easy task for a super spin doctor like Netanyahu.
The problem is that the world is in no hurry to buy the Israeli argument. The United States and Europe make a clear distinction between the Palestinian Authority and the Islamic organizations. When the Karine-A weapons ship was captured in January 2002, Israel provided solid intelligence showing that the shipment was intended for Yasser Arafat's men. That was enough for the Bush administration to cut off relations with Arafat's regime, which encouraged suicide attacks while swearing commitment to the Oslo Accords.
This time, the missiles seized on the Victoria were intended for Hamas or Islamic Jihad, while Netanyahu's (partly justified ) arguments about the PA's incitement are not causing much of a media stir.
As far as the international community is concerned, the murder of the Fogel couple and three of their children was perpetrated by extreme Palestinians, whose leaders the PA has washed its hands of. Moreover, it is disappointing to find out that most denunciations of the murder, from Washington to Moscow, are not much more than various foreign ministries' lip service to Israel's demands. The world sees the West Bank hills as the Wild West, in which Israel is persistently annexing Palestinian farmers' lands. Even Friday night's barbaric massacre failed to evoke a wave of sympathy for the settlers' pain.
The navy made all the preparations for Netanyahu's visit on the dock. The soldiers labored all night unloading the containers. The weapons piles were placed on the dock in exemplary order, with the mortar shells all pointing south toward Gaza, parallel to the waterline.
From this point, things started to go wrong. The Shin Bet's VIP protection unit, which has been functioning seemingly in a world of its own since Yitzhak Rabin's assassination, detained a large batch of foreign journalists for more than an hour before beginning the security checks. No wonder many of them got tired of waiting and left.
Presumably they weren't too enthusiastic to begin with over what they saw as an Israeli propaganda display. None of the foreign networks thought of cutting their broadcasts from Tokyo for Netanyahu's speech to the world.
Maybe the Shin Bet's restrictions are necessary. Maybe there is no way to compromise on the prime minister's security and streamline the checking process (though plenty of people in the government and the Israel Defense Forces believe otherwise ). In this case, this is not the issue. The issue is, was it really imperative for Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak to appear at the display at the dock if they couldn't do so in the presence of the foreign media? After all, they had both already made televised statements on the matter on Tuesday.
Couldn't they make do with sending down a team from the Government Press Office, which could later distribute video of Netanyahu grimly surveying the loot? It appears Netanyahu and Barak couldn't resist, yet again. The entire event reeked of extreme overkill. Most of what remained of the impressive intelligence and naval-commando achievement, as usual in our case, was a sour taste.
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
I hadn't heard about this stuff. It's a little confusing.. why would the MSM not cover these stories? What's the agenda?
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
I hadn't heard about this stuff. It's a little confusing.. why would the MSM not cover these stories? What's the agenda?
Too busy reporting on Muammar 90 gazillion times per day to report on anything else of interest. Sorry, cant squeeze something like that in........... too much actual work.
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Same with the Japanese disaster.. what's it take to satiate the public's demand for ChaosTainment these days?
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what's it take to satiate the public's demand for ChaosTainment these days?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CGdbWRAh_KI/SOwFGzWjhpI/AAAAAAAAAqg/3VCbUh3tYWo/s320/exploding_earth.jpg)
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
I hadn't heard about this stuff. It's a little confusing.. why would the MSM not cover these stories? What's the agenda?
Because the world doesn't care when Jews are murdered.
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
I hadn't heard about this stuff. It's a little confusing.. why would the MSM not cover these stories? What's the agenda?
Because the world doesn't care when Jews are murdered.
Get more oil.
People will start caring.
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
I hadn't heard about this stuff. It's a little confusing.. why would the MSM not cover these stories? What's the agenda?
Because the world doesn't care when Jews are murdered.
Hopefully you can relate to my complaints about the same attitude toward whites.
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In the last 3 days over 70 missiles were fired into Israel. A bomb was strapped to a phone booth at a Jerusalem bus station, killing one and seriously injuring 3 others. Last week, a Palestinian terrorist walked into the house of the Fogel family and murdered Rabbi Fogel, his wife and 3 of his 6 children with a kitchen knife. None of this has been given media coverage.
I hadn't heard about this stuff. It's a little confusing.. why would the MSM not cover these stories? What's the agenda?
Because the world doesn't care when Jews are murdered.
If hellbilly hadn't heard about any of this stuff, he doesn't pay attention to the MSM, or this thread. Two of those events were covered in this thread. I didn't post about the uptick in missiles/mortars, because people complain about too many jew threads. If you post too much jew news you are anti-semitic. Apparently, you are also anti-semitic if don't post enough jew news.
Just because you haven't heard about this stuff does not mean the MSM isn't covering the stories. It means you aren't paying attention to the MSM.
Obama made statements about this shit, and the MSM covered it. US Defense Secretary Robert Gates has been in Israel since the bomb went of in Jerusalem, and the MSM has been covering him commenting on all this shit.
Anyway, non-Israeli Jews don't even care about murdered Israeli Jews.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=212716
Column One: Israel’s indivisible legitimacy
By CAROLINE B. GLICK
03/18/2011 15:45
Instead of considering what murder says about Palestinian society, media have turned massacre of Fogel family into story about “settlements.”
Over the past several years, a growing number of patriotic Israelis have begun to despair. We can’t stand up to the whole world, they say. At the end of the day, we will have to give in and surrender most of the land or all of the land we took control over in the 1967 Six Day War. The world won’t accept anything less.
These statements have grown more strident in the wake of the slaughter of the Fogel family last Friday night in Itamar. For example, on Thursday Ha’aretz columnist Ari Shavit called Israeli communities built beyond the 1949 armistice line the local equivalent of Japan’s nuclear reactors. Like the reactors, he wrote, they seemed like a good idea at the time. But they have become our undoing.
The international community’s response to the Palestinian atrocity in Itamar is pointed to as proof that Israel must surrender. Instead of considering what the savage murder of an Israeli family tells us about the nature of Palestinian society, the world media have turned the massacre of the Fogel family into a story about “settlements.”
Take The Los Angeles Times for example. From the Times’ perspective, the Fogels were not Israeli civilians. They were “Jewish settlers.” They weren’t murdered in their home. They were killed in their “tightly guarded compound.”
And, in the end, the Times effectively justified the murder of the Fogel children when it helpfully added, “Most of the international community... views Israel’s settlements as illegal.”
The Times report was actually comparatively sympathetic. At least it mentioned the murders. Most European papers began their coverage with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s announcement that the government would permit Israelis to build 400 homes in Judea and Samaria.
As for the governments of the world, most were far swifter and more aggressive in their condemnation of Netanyahu’s announcement of the building permits than they were in their condemnation of the murders.
Then there is the US Jewish community.
According to New York’s Jewish Week, there is a new consensus in the American Jewish community that imposing an economic boycott on Israeli communities outside the 1949 armistice lines is a legitimate position. The paper interviewed Martin Raffel, the head of the new Israel Action Network, a multimillion-dollar effort by the Jewish Federations of North America and other major Jewish groups to counter the delegitimization of Israel.
Raffel called the boycott movement misguided, rather than wrong. Then he justified it by arguing, “Being misguided in one’s policies doesn’t mean one necessarily has become part of the ranks of the delegitimizers.”
If that wasn’t enough, Ron Kampeas, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency’s Washington bureau chief, wrote Tuesday that we shouldn’t rush to conclude that Palestinians carried out the attack.
Kampeas wrote, “We do not yet know who committed the awful butchery in Itamar over the weekend.”
WITH AMERICAN Jews taking a lead role in delegitimizing Israel; with the international media ignoring the massacre of the Fogel family and attacking Israel for its response to the event they didn’t cover; and with the US government united with the nations of the world in condemning the government’s decision to allow Israelis who are Jewish to build on land they own, the despair of a growing chorus of Israelis is understandable.
But while understandable, the notion that Israel has no choice but to surrender Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem to the Palestinians is wrong and dangerous.
Like his fellow defeatists, Shavit argues that Jewish communities in these areas are the cause of international moves to delegitimize Israel. If they were gone, so the argument goes, then neither the Palestinians nor the international community would have a problem with Israel.
The first problem with this view is that it confuses the focus of Palestinian and international attacks on Israel with the rationale behind those attacks. This is a mistake Israelis have made repeatedly since the establishment of the Fatahled PA in 1994.
Immediately after the PA was set up and IDF forces transferred security control over Palestinian cities and towns in Judea and Samaria to Yasser Arafat’s armies, Palestinian terrorists began attacking Israeli motorists driving through PA-controlled areas with rocks, pipe bombs and bullets.
Then-prime minister and defense minister Yitzhak Rabin blamed the attacks on “friction.” If the Palestinians didn’t have contact with Israeli motorists, then they wouldn’t attack them. So Israel built the bypass roads around the Palestinian towns and cities to prevent friction.
For its efforts, the Palestinians and the international community accused Israel of building “Jews-only, apartheid roads.” Moreover, Palestinian terrorists left their towns and cities and stoned, bombed and shot at Israeli motorists on the bypass roads.
Then there was Gaza. When in 2001 Palestinians first began shelling the Israeli communities in Gaza and the Western Negev with mortars and rockets, we were told they were attacking because of Israel’s presence in Gaza. When the IDF took action to defend the country from mortar and rocket attacks, Israel was accused of committing war crimes.
The likes of Shavit said then that if Israel left Gaza, the Palestinian attacks would stop. They said that if they didn’t stop and the IDF was forced to take action, the world would support Israel.
Shavit himself engaged in shocking demonization of the Israelis living in Gaza. In May 2004 he wrote that they were undeserving of IDF protection and that no soldier should defend them because they weren’t real Israelis.
But then the Palestinians and the international community threw Shavit and his friends yet another curveball. After Israel expelled every last so-called settler and removed every last soldier from Gaza in August 2005, Palestinian rocket attacks increased tenfold. The first Katyusha was fired at Ashkelon seven months after Israel withdrew. Hamas won the elections and Gaza became an Iranian proxy. Now it has missiles capable of reaching Tel Aviv.
As for the international community, not only did it continue blaming Israel for Palestinian terrorism, it refused to accept that Israel had ended its so-called occupation of Gaza. It has condemned every step Israel has taken to defend itself from Palestinian aggression since the withdrawal as a war crime.
The lesson of these experiences is that Israeli towns and villages in Judea and Samaria are not castigated as “illegitimate” because there is anything inherently illegitimate about them. Like the bypass roads and the Israeli presence in Gaza, they are singled out because those interested in attacking Israel militarily or politically think are an easy target.
The Arabs, the UN, the Obama administration, the EU, anti-Israel American and Israeli Jews, university professors and the legions of self-proclaimed human rights organizations in Israel and throughout the world allege these Israeli communities are illegitimate because by doing so they weaken Israel as a whole.
If Israel is convinced that it has no choice but to bow to these people’s demands, they will not be appeased. They will simply move on to the next easy target. Israeli Jewish communities in the Galilee and the Negev, Jaffa and Lod will be deemed illegitimate.
In a bid to pretend that the communities in Judea and Samaria are somehow different from communities in the Galilee, proponents of surrender point to the non-binding 2004 International Court of Justice opinion that the communities in Judea and Samaria are illegal.
But Israelis who accept the non-binding opinion as a binding ruling for Judea and Samaria ignore that the opinion also asserted that Israel has no right to self defense.
The same people who think that so-called settlements are illegal also believe that opposition leader Tzipi Livni is a war criminal. The same people who think the so-called settlements are illegal would condemn as a war crime any attempt to enforce the law against irredentist Israeli Arabs.
Israel’s bitter experience proves incontrovertibly that bowing to international pressure just invites more pressure.
SO WHAT can Israel do?
The first thing we must do is recognize that legitimacy is indivisible. In the eyes of Israel’s enemies there is no difference between Itamar and Ma’aleh Adumim on the one hand and Ramle and Tel Aviv on the other hand. And so we must make no distinction between them.
Just as law abiding citizens are permitted to build homes in Ramle and Tel Aviv, so they must be permitted to build in Itamar and Ma’aleh Adumim. If Israel’s assertion of its sovereignty is legitimate in Tel Aviv, then it is legitimate in Judea and Samaria. We cannot accept that one has a different status from the other.
Likewise, it is an act of economic warfare to boycott Israeli products, whether they are made in Haifa or Mishor Adumim. Anyone who says it is permissible to boycott Mishor Adumim is engaging in economic warfare against Haifa.
Once we understand that Israel’s legitimacy is indivisible, we need to take actions that will put the Palestinians and their international supporters on the defensive. There are any number of moves Israel can make in this vein.
For example, following the Palestinian massacre of the Fogel family, Netanyahu highlighted the fact that the PA routinely glorifies terrorist murderers and pays them and their families handsome pensions for their illegal acts of war. He also highlighted the genocidal anti-Jewish incitement endemic in Palestinian society.
While all of this is useful, talk is cheap. It is time to make the Palestinians pay a price for their depravity and to put their international supporters on the defensive.
Specifically, Netanyahu should ask the US to cut off all US economic and military assistance to the PA. Two PA intelligence officers were arrested as part of the Fogel murder investigation.
The US is training and equipping the Palestinian intelligence services. This should stop.
Two days after the massacre in Itamar, the PA dedicated a public square in El-Bireh to terror commander Dalal Mughrabi. Mughrabi commanded the 1978 bus attack on the coastal highway in which 37 Israelis – including 12 children – were murdered. The PA previously named a street, a dormitory, a summer camp and a sports tournament after her. Several popular songs have been written to glorify her crimes.
The US is underwriting the PA’s budget. This should stop.
Were the government to go after international aid to the PA, not only would it begin a debate in the US and perhaps Europe about the nature of Fatah specifically and Palestinian society generally, it would force the Palestinians’ myriad supporters to justify their support for a society that is defined by its goal of annihilating Israel.
It is hard to stand up to the massive pressure being brought to bear against Israel every day. But it is possible.
And whether defying our foes is hard or easy, it is our only chance at survival. Either all of Israel is legitimate, or none of it is.
At least she realizes the possibility that currently none of Israel is legitimate.
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Have you read about Motti Fogel, Udi's older brother? He is pretty awesome. He threw a chair at a rabbi.
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/the-private-side-of-a-public-tragedy-1.351740
The private side of a public tragedy
Against the crowds who see the political significance of the murder of the Fogel family of Itamar vis-a-vis the background of their various national goals, one man wishes to remind us that his loved ones lost their lives
By Nir Hasson
Everyone came to the funeral of the Fogel family members murdered in the West Bank settlement of Itamar, from members of the national-religious youth movement Bnei Akiva, in their blue shirts, to the "hilltop youths," with their long sidelocks. All the public leaders, Knesset members, settlement leaders and regional council heads came to the cemetery on March 13 to bury parents Udi and Ruthie, and children Yoav, Elad and Hadas.
The eulogizers' words were aimed at the large crowd, the people of Israel and the prime minister. One spoke about incitement, another about the defense minister's lax policy. Almost all were united in what they deemed the appropriate response to terrorism: building new settlements and neighborhoods.
Against this background, the voice of Motti Fogel, Udi's older brother, stood out. "If I could, I would get rid of everyone here and whisper to you, 'Let's go play soccer one last time,'" he said. "All the slogans about Torah and land settlement, the Land of Israel and the Jewish people try to make us forget the simple fact that you are dead. A person is born to himself, to his parents and his siblings, and he dies to himself, to his children, and in very bad cases also to his parents and his siblings. You are not a symbol or a national event, your life bore a purpose unto itself and we must not let your terrible death become a tool, no matter what for."
A few days later, Rabbi Elyakim Levanon, one of the most important and most extreme of the settler rabbis, came to the home of the Fogel parents in the settlement of Neve Tzuf, near Beit El, where the family was observing the week of mourning. Levanon spent time with the parents and as he was leaving, he said to Motti, "It won't help. It's not private, it's public." A heated conversation ensued. Finally, Motti Fogel said, "Maybe Udi was also punished for the disengagement [from Gaza]?" alluding to Levanon's comment that former president Moshe Katsav had been punished for not speaking out against the disengagement. In the end, Levanon left after Fogel threw a chair at him.
That has been Motti Fogel's only confrontation since the murder and his eulogy, despite the ideological abyss that separates him from his family and the society he grew up in.
"I admit I was apprehensive about how people would respond to what I said at the funeral. But a few people from my parents' area told me they deeply related to what I said and that it was important to say it. The settlers, in quotation marks, are first of all human beings. It sounds very dumb to say this, but they have private lives, and it was important for them to have a private element at the funeral. Levanon is the exception," he says.
Crossing the lines
Fogel, 39, lives in Jerusalem with his wife and their three children. He works as a writer for the financial newspaper Globes and for the weekly entertainment guide Akhbar Ha'ir (City Mouse ). He crossed the lines politically after his army service. He is highly critical of the society in which he was raised, but also feels understanding and compassion for it. The eldest of five siblings, Motti was raised in Neve Tzuf. His father works for Amana, the settlement arm of the Yesha Council of settlements.
"I grew up in a classic Gush Emunim home," he says, referring to the movement that spearheaded the settlement project. But then he adds, "Actually, I'm not sure I know what 'classic' means."
He initially began to change his beliefs after studying the writings of none other than Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook, the settlers' spiritual father. "It is hard to say when exactly your views change. And it's not a single event, either. But in [the yeshiva] Or Zion, there was a major emphasis on studying Rabbi Kook. I liked his writings very much, and took them very seriously. I remember that one of the things that gave me pause was Rabbi Kook's discussion of the justification for a Jewish nationality. He writes that nationality is fundamentally unacceptable, but that the Jewish people is different from other peoples in the sense that when it looks after itself, it is looking after the whole world. You can take that as a mission and you can take it as fate. If it's fate, it can justify extreme selfishness; if it's a mission, that is something else entirely. I too take it as a given that the Jewish people's mission is to look after the world, every person, so I don't see how that is consistent with ruling another people."
After leaving the yeshiva, Fogel studied philosophy at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. There he had another turning point, in a conversation with a Palestinian student. "I remember we were sitting outside the library and talking. She asked me where I was from and I told her. I remember the look of horror on her face. I think the horror is unjustified, but it was authentic horror. It suddenly gave me a different understanding of what we look like," he relates.
Fogel is still religiously observant, and wears a skullcap, but he is also one of the founders of the Egalitarian Minyan of Baka, an Orthodox congregation that aims for equality between men and women in prayer, which meets in a Jerusalem community center. Politically, he has been participating in the weekly demonstrations in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood in East Jerusalem, protesting the creation of a Jewish settlement there.
"When I demonstrate, I know I am expressing views my family does not accept, but I feel I am continuing what I received at home. I definitely see myself as a product of my life; however far I may be, I see myself as very much connected to the home I grew up in."
His home is the basis for his worldview: He opposes the occupation but also opposes the evacuation of settlements. "If we put aside the question of political feasibility, I prefer a binational state. I would prefer the settlements not be evacuated. I don't think evacuation is the path to peace. I don't think creating more distress is the way to do good.
"Personally, it's hard for me to leave places in which I grew up," he says. "I think about the people who are living there, now the third generation. Children who were born to children who were born in the settlements. Irrespective of what they think, they are human beings.
"When [Kadima leader] Tzipi Livni says she wants consolidation in one state, so that it will be a Jewish state, I ask myself what she means by a Jewish state. Because in my view, a Jewish state is not one that clings with all its power to ensure a royal Jewish majority. I also don't think a Jewish state is a state that rules another people who lack the right to vote and other basic rights. What is behind the cliche 'democratic Jewish state'? There are two sides that both believe a Jewish state is one without Arabs. The argument is over how there will be no Arabs, whether we ourselves will withdraw or whether we will expel them. Let's set aside the fact that it's easier to withdraw than to expel people. There is also an element of preserving the balance of power, and that is what interests most of the Israeli bourgeois parties - Labor, Likud, Kadima and also, regrettably, Meretz. The fear of a bi-national state is fear of shifting the balance of power.
"I suggest listening to the settlers' criticism, even if it sounds like slogans. They say, 'Why do you want to evacuate settlements, when Ramat Aviv is also on Arab land?' They are right. Not in the sense that 1967 is the same as 1948. They are right in the sense that it is easier for us to think about evacuating settlers who are not part of the Israeli norm than about eroding the power of those in the center. I simply draw a different conclusion. My conclusion is not that we must not withdraw from any place, but we still have to listen to this critique.
"Udi was far more mischievous than I was, and much more sociable and popular. From the outside, it may have looked like he was becoming more pious religiously, but I think it suited his character. He was a very sociable, very good person. With a permanent smile. I suppose he did not smile all the time, but that's what it looked like. He taught me it can be nice to speak with others."
Connection through Gemara
Udi Fogel, who was two years younger than Motti, worked as a teacher. He taught in the Gaza settlement of Netzarim until the Israeli pullout in 2005, then moved with his family to the West Bank city of Ariel and later to Itamar, where he taught in the post-high school yeshiva. "It looked as though he had found his place there, both in terms of the yeshiva and in terms of self-confidence. It was beautiful to see that," his brother says.
In the past year, the brothers got past a falling out and became close.
"Both of us are learning Gemara and we tried to study together, but it didn't really work, because I study with a completely different approach. But the last time they visited us we suddenly managed to talk about an issue from the Gemara and learned together. For me that was much more meaningful and serious than the question of whether we could talk politics. It made me very happy that we could learn Gemara together. It was moving."
That was a few weeks before the murder.
"I don't know how it will change my life," Motti says. "My natural inclination is to go on as usual. But one of the things I am discovering is that we cannot control our memory. I can't control when I think about Udi. One of the most difficult moments came at the end of the shiva, when we came back here. I was very happy to be home after a week. But I suddenly returned to the moment when I was told, and that was not a pleasant moment."
The murder did not change his political stance. "It only makes things more concrete. The need to reduce the enmity comes closer to me personally, you can't ignore it as much."
Fogel learned about his brother's murder almost a full day after the event. "On Saturday morning we got back from synagogue. We had an army officer visiting. She said, 'Did you hear what a terrible night it was in Itamar?' She forgot Udi lived there. I didn't think it was him. But in the evening, when the phone rang, I thought it must be my father, calling with the news. So in some way I had been prepared. There was lightning, and later thunder."
After learning of the murders, Fogel drove to his parents' home in Neveh Tzuf. "On the way there, we saw a fire burning in the fields opposite the spring," he says. The spring is the site of a dispute between the settlers and Palestinians from the adjacent village of Nebi Saleh. "What will a left-winger think when he sees the fire? That settlers burned the field as part of the 'price tag' policy [of revenge]. I also thought that.
"When we got to the settlement, there were people there who ensured that journalists were kept out. I told them, 'We are not a family that burns fields.' Afterward, one of them told me they didn't know what I was talking about, because the Palestinians had rolled a burning tire into the field and set it ablaze. So, in short, when we see a fire burning, let's not presume who lit it. Maybe we will be better off making an effort to put it out."
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Just because you haven't heard about this stuff does not mean the MSM isn't covering the stories. It means you aren't paying attention to the MSM.
You're right. The reason I skim over news stories involving Jews in the Middle East is because I'm so far removed from those issues that it doesn't benefit anyone for me to keep up to date on the details. Details may change but violence in that area between the same groups seems to predate history.
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The media treats Jewish settlers the same way they treated David Koresh.
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The media treats Jewish settlers the same way they treated David Koresh.
Ok, I'm somewhat ignorant on this subject, but why are they called settlers, and who's land are they settling on?
Seriously, not being a smartass like usual.
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The media treats Jewish settlers the same way they treated David Koresh.
Ok, I'm somewhat ignorant on this subject, but why are they called settlers, and who's land are they settling on?
Settlers are Israeli Jews that are living on land given to Jews by G-d.
[youtube]ZGrAj5tf3xs[/youtube]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
An Israeli settlement is an Israeli civilian community on land that was captured by Israel during the 1967 Six-Day War and is considered occupied territory.[1] Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank. Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are considered settlements by the international community, which refused to recognize Israel's annexations of these territories.[2] Settlements also existed in the Sinai and Gaza Strip before Israel evacuated them.
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Because the world doesn't care when Jews are murdered.
I've never seen so many governments take notice and issue statements over the murder of a few people.
What kind of response do you think there should have been?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_killings
Supranational
United Nations: Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's office published a statement saying, "The Secretary-General condemns last night's shocking murder of an Israeli family of five, including three children, in a West Bank settlement. He calls for the perpetrators to be brought to justice, and for all to act with restraint."[60]
Quartet on the Middle East representative Tony Blair said, "this brutal and appalling murder is shocking and deplorable," and sent his "deepest condolences and sympathy to those remaining members of the family and to the community."[61]
International
Australia: The Australian government condemned the attack and extended its condolences to the surviving family members and friends. Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd called the attack "a despicable act of terrorism" and said, "There can be no justification for the brutal murder of three innocent children and their parents."[62]
Canada: Canadian Foreign Minister Lawrence Cannon said in a statement, "The brutal killing of five Israelis, including children, cannot be justified." He called the atrocities "heinous acts of terror" and demanded the full cooperation of the Palestinian Authority in holding the murderers accountable.[63]
Cyprus: Cypriot President Dimitris Christofias condemned the attack, calling its perpetrators "inhuman", and expressed condolences to the family and to the people of Israel.[64]
France: Foreign Minister Alain Juppé said that "France utterly condemns the assassination of five members of an Israeli family yesterday in the settlement of Itamar, on the West Bank. Among the victims of this barbarous act were three children, including a baby", and offered his condolences to the family of the victims and the Israeli authorities. Juppé further stated that France "condemns all acts of violence in the occupied territories and calls for maximum restraint in order to prevent deterioration in the situation. The quest for peace through negotiations must prevail." The French consul-general in Jerusalem, Frédérique Desagleau, attended the funeral of the five victims. French Ambassador to Israel Christine Bigot visited the parents of Ruth Fogel to present condolences.[65][61]
Germany: Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle condemned the "cruel and heinous" slayings, saying, "nothing can justify such attacks."[61]
Greece: Greek Foreign Ministry spokesman Gregory Delavekouras stated that "we unequivocally codemn the murder of a five-member Israeli family – including three young children – and express our deep condolences and support to the relatives and friends. The murder of children in their sleep is an inconceivably ungodly, inhuman, and barbarous act", and called for the murderers to be brought to justice immediately. The statement also urged the peace process to continue and reiterated that the settlements were illegal, but stated that "any act of violence against civilians is condemnable, whatever its source".[66]
Ireland: Irish Tánaiste and Minister of Foreign Affairs, Eamon Gilmore, condemned the murder of the Fogel family, calling it "an appalling act of violence" and "a senseless atrocity." Gilmore urged Israelis and Palestinians to resume direct peace talks and move toward "a just settlement, based on two States living side by side."[67]
Italy: Speaker of the Chamber of Deputies, Gianfranco Fini, telephoned his Israeli counterpart, Reuven Rivlin, and denounced the attack as a "most terrible and tragic event." He offered condolences on behalf of the Italian people to the bereaved family and to the entire people of Israel.[68][69]
Japan: The Japanese Foreign Ministry stated that "Japan strongly condemns the murder which occurred March 12 in Itamar, northern West Bank. Japan expresses its heartfelt sympathy for the victims and sends condolences to the bereaved relatives. Such an act cannot be justified for any reason, and any attempt to justify violence is unacceptable.[70]
Netherlands: The Dutch Foreign Ministry expressed "outrage" at the killings, stating that "a crime like this can never be justified", called for all perpetrators to be brought to justice, and urged the Palestinian Authority to cooperate in arresting the suspects. It also stressed that it agreed with the Quartet in stressing the importance of achieving peace between Israel and it's neighbors. Foreign Minister Uri Rosenthal offered condolences to the victims' family and Israel.[71]
Norway: Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre released a statement saying, "I condemn the brutal killing of a family of six Israelis in the West Bank. This is a criminal act, and those responsible must be brought to justice as soon as possible."[72]
Spain: The Foreign Ministry of Spain issued a statement condemning the attack "in the most energetic terms" and expressed hope that it would not lead to an escalation of violence in the region.[73]
Turkey: Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu published a message on the ministry's website calling the attack "unacceptable." He stressed that the "act of terror, against innocent children is a crime that violates the most basic of rights, the right to life."[74]
United Kingdom: Foreign Secretary William Hague said, "The friends and relatives of the family killed in Itamar have my deepest sympathies. This was an act of incomprehensible cruelty and brutality which I utterly condemn. We hope the perpetrator is swiftly brought to justice."[75]
United States: White House spokesman Jay Carney said, "There is no possible justification for the killing of parents and children in their home. We call on the Palestinian Authority to unequivocally condemn this terrorist attack and for the perpetrators of this heinous crime to be held accountable."[76] Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said, "I was shocked and deeply saddened to learn of the brutal murder of an Israeli family. The United States condemns this appalling attack in the strongest possible terms. To kill three innocent children and their parents while they sleep is an inhuman crime for which there can be no justification."[77]
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This has been pretty hot over the last few days.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html
Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes
By Richard Goldstone, Friday, April 1, 8:42 PM
We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.
The final report by the U.N. committee of independent experts — chaired by former New York judge Mary McGowan Davis — that followed up on the recommendations of the Goldstone Report has found that “Israel has dedicated significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational misconduct in Gaza” while “the de facto authorities (i.e., Hamas) have not conducted any investigations into the launching of rocket and mortar attacks against Israel.”
Our report found evidence of potential war crimes and “possibly crimes against humanity” by both Israel and Hamas. That the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets.
The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion. While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee’s report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.
For example, the most serious attack the Goldstone Report focused on was the killing of some 29 members of the al-Simouni family in their home. The shelling of the home was apparently the consequence of an Israeli commander’s erroneous interpretation of a drone image, and an Israeli officer is under investigation for having ordered the attack. While the length of this investigation is frustrating, it appears that an appropriate process is underway, and I am confident that if the officer is found to have been negligent, Israel will respond accordingly. The purpose of these investigations, as I have always said, is to ensure accountability for improper actions, not to second-guess, with the benefit of hindsight, commanders making difficult battlefield decisions.
While I welcome Israel’s investigations into allegations, I share the concerns reflected in the McGowan Davis report that few of Israel’s inquiries have been concluded and believe that the proceedings should have been held in a public forum. Although the Israeli evidence that has emerged since publication of our report doesn’t negate the tragic loss of civilian life, I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.
Israel’s lack of cooperation with our investigation meant that we were not able to corroborate how many Gazans killed were civilians and how many were combatants. The Israeli military’s numbers have turned out to be similar to those recently furnished by Hamas (although Hamas may have reason to inflate the number of its combatants).
As I indicated from the very beginning, I would have welcomed Israel’s cooperation. The purpose of the Goldstone Report was never to prove a foregone conclusion against Israel. I insisted on changing the original mandate adopted by the Human Rights Council, which was skewed against Israel. I have always been clear that Israel, like any other sovereign nation, has the right and obligation to defend itself and its citizens against attacks from abroad and within. Something that has not been recognized often enough is the fact that our report marked the first time illegal acts of terrorism from Hamas were being investigated and condemned by the United Nations. I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted.
Some have charged that the process we followed did not live up to judicial standards. To be clear: Our mission was in no way a judicial or even quasi-judicial proceeding. We did not investigate criminal conduct on the part of any individual in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank. We made our recommendations based on the record before us, which unfortunately did not include any evidence provided by the Israeli government. Indeed, our main recommendation was for each party to investigate, transparently and in good faith, the incidents referred to in our report. McGowan Davis has found that Israel has done this to a significant degree; Hamas has done nothing.
Some have suggested that it was absurd to expect Hamas, an organization that has a policy to destroy the state of Israel, to investigate what we said were serious war crimes. It was my hope, even if unrealistic, that Hamas would do so, especially if Israel conducted its own investigations. At minimum I hoped that in the face of a clear finding that its members were committing serious war crimes, Hamas would curtail its attacks. Sadly, that has not been the case. Hundreds more rockets and mortar rounds have been directed at civilian targets in southern Israel. That comparatively few Israelis have been killed by the unlawful rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza in no way minimizes the criminality. The U.N. Human Rights Council should condemn these heinous acts in the strongest terms.
In the end, asking Hamas to investigate may have been a mistaken enterprise. So, too, the Human Rights Council should condemn the inexcusable and cold-blooded recent slaughter of a young Israeli couple and three of their small children in their beds.
I continue to believe in the cause of establishing and applying international law to protracted and deadly conflicts. Our report has led to numerous “lessons learned” and policy changes, including the adoption of new Israel Defense Forces procedures for protecting civilians in cases of urban warfare and limiting the use of white phosphorus in civilian areas. The Palestinian Authority established an independent inquiry into our allegations of human rights abuses — assassinations, torture and illegal detentions — perpetrated by Fatah in the West Bank, especially against members of Hamas. Most of those allegations were confirmed by this inquiry. Regrettably, there has been no effort by Hamas in Gaza to investigate the allegations of its war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.
Simply put, the laws of armed conflict apply no less to non-state actors such as Hamas than they do to national armies. Ensuring that non-state actors respect these principles, and are investigated when they fail to do so, is one of the most significant challenges facing the law of armed conflict. Only if all parties to armed conflicts are held to these standards will we be able to protect civilians who, through no choice of their own, are caught up in war.
The writer, a retired justice of the Constitutional Court of South Africa and former chief prosecutor of the U.N. International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, chaired the U.N. fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/goldstone-denies-he-will-recant-20110406-1d4k0.html
Goldstone denies he will recant
Jason Koutsoukis
April 7, 2011
BEIRUT: Justice Richard Goldstone has categorically rejected an Israeli minister's statement that he had agreed to rescind his highly critical United Nations report on Israel's conduct of the 2008-09 war in Gaza.
On Tuesday the Israeli Interior Minister, Eli Yishai, gave multiple radio interviews saying that in a telephone conversation on Monday, Justice Goldstone had agreed to work to have the report withdrawn.
After writing last week in The Washington Post that new information had come to light that made him rethink some of his conclusions, Justice Goldstone said he still stood by most of the final draft that was published in September 2009.
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''There was absolutely no discussion about the Goldstone report on the call,'' he told the Associated Press.
Justice Goldstone said that, as he had written in the article , he did not now believe that Israel's armed forces had targeted Palestinians during its three-week Operation Cast Lead campaign against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
''Further information as a result of domestic investigations could lead to further reconsideration,'' Justice Goldstone said. ''But as presently advised I have no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time.''
A Pakistani human rights lawyer, Hina Jilani, who worked with Justice Goldstone on the UN's fact-finding mission, has openly contradicted his recent comments. In an interview with the Middle East Monitor, she said that the UN report still stood, The Guardian reported.
''No process or acceptable procedure would invalidate the UN report; if it does happen, it would be seen as a suspect move,'' she said.
In relation to the Yishai controversy, Justice Goldstone confirmed the minister had invited him to visit Israel and that he had accepted, but not until July. ''I ended the conversation by expressing my love for Israel,'' Justice Goldstone said.
A spokesman for Mr Yishai, Roi Lachmanovitch, was later forced to issue a clarification, saying the minister ''didn't speak with the required clarity'' regarding the telephone conversation. Mr Yishai, whose decision to phone Justice Goldstone was made without consulting his Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has been harshly criticised in Israel.
Mr Netanyahu was reportedly furious with Mr Yishai, but did not criticise him publicly because Mr Yishai leads the religious party Shas, a member of Mr Netanyahu's coalition government.
''The invitation was made on [Mr Yishai's] own initiative, without co-ordinating with anyone,'' a government source told Israel's Maariv newspaper. ''He has only made things worse because he is making Goldstone out, in the eyes of the world, to be a collaborator with Israel.''
The publication of Justice Goldstone's Washington Post article has prompted the establishment of two separate government committees in Israel to try to completely discredit his original UN report.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_poll
Partners in peace indeed.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_poll
Partners in peace indeed.
that's some sad shit
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_poll
Partners in peace indeed.
Pretty much.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4048459,00.html
Poll: 46% in favor of 'price tag'
Ynet-Gesher survey conducted after Itamar massacre shows nearly half of Jewish public believes extreme rightists' actions against Palestinians are justified
Ynet
Published: 03.28.11, 14:19 / Israel Jewish Scene
Nearly half of Israel's Jewish population believes the "price tag" activities executed by extreme rightists against Palestinians are justified to a certain extent, according to a survey conducted for Ynet and the Gesher educational organization.
The poll was carried out by the Panels research institute following the massacre of five family members in the settlement of Itamar, among 504 respondents who constitute a national representative sample of the adult Jewish population in Israel. The sampling error stands at 4.4%.
West Bank
Palestinian 'price tag' victim recounts attack / Elior Levy
Construction worker beaten by masked settlers in Shiloh suffers from bruises, deep laceration to back of head
Full story
Respondents were asked to refer to the "price tag" activities executed by extreme right-wing elements. Forty-eight percent said there was no room for such actions (33% - "totally unjustified", 15% - "somewhat unjustified"). On the other hand, some 22% said the actions were "perfectly justified", and 23% defined them as "quite justified".
While most seculars oppose "price tag" activities (36% in favor, 57% against), most traditional, national-religious and ultra-Orthodox Jews believe these actions are justified (55%, 70% and 71%, respectively).
The survey respondents were also asked whether rabbis were capable of preventing the "price tag" actions. Some 68% responded that rabbis were "quite capable" or "very capable" of preventing such actions.
Here too there was a significant difference between the stance of secular and traditional Jews, and that of religious and haredi Jews: About 76% of the seculars and 66% of the traditional Jews believe the rabbis have the power to prevent the "price tag" activities, while the national-religious and haredim say the rabbis are incapable of doing so. About 40% of religious Jews and 35% of haredim believe rabbis can prevent acts of violence and revenge.
Finally, the respondents were asked who should be held responsible for preventing "price tag" activities. The most popular answer was "the settlers' leadership" (52%), followed by the police (45%), rabbis (43%), the Israel Defense Forces (37%) and the legal system (22%).
'Price tag only aggravates situation'
According to Gesher Director Ilan Geal-Dor, "The pain over the terrible attack evokes bad feelings of revenge. The public feels something must be done, but the price tag solution does not improve the situation in any way. It can only make it worse.
"The survey shows that the absolute majority believes the rabbis can prevent these actions. The rabbis have a key role, not just in the hall of study, but also by directing efforts at other channels rather than the price tag.
"I call on the rabbis to sign a new 'rabbis' letter', urging the hot-tempered and all young people to avoid any price tag activities. Such a letter will allow the security forces to focus on securing communities rather than chasing rioters."
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http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/04/07/israel.gaza.violence/
Militants fire anti-tank missile at bus, wounding child, Israel says
By the CNN Wire Staff
April 7, 2011 -- Updated 1417 GMT (2217 HKT)
(CNN) -- A bus traveling in Israel near the Gaza border was hit Thursday by an anti-tank missile fired by Palestinian militants, Israeli authorities said.
The bus had one passenger at the time, a 13-year-old boy who was returning from school, said Avital Leibovitch, spokeswoman for the Israel Defense Forces.
The boy was severely wounded, and the driver was moderately wounded, Leibovitch said.
It was not immediately known if the bus was targeted, but it looked like "a direct hit," she said.
Local media reported that 14 mortar shells fell in the area Thursday.
The attack was part of "ongoing terror directed against innocent Israeli civilians" emanating from Gaza, Leibovitch said.
The IDF said that in the past Palestinian militants have fired anti-tank weapons at Israeli military targets only. It's the first known time Palestinians fired one at a civilian target, an IDF spokesman said.
After the incident, medical sources in Gaza reported that one person was killed and three others were injured in central Gaza by IDF fire. Palestinian security and medical sources also reported an airstrike on the airport in Rafah in southern Gaza. The IDF had no immediate comment on those reports.
The IDF said this week that it has seen an increase in terrorist strikes into the country, counting 128 in March, compared with 61 in February and 83 in January.
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ok get off the shit for israel
they're not exactly innocent or anything....
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ok get off the shit for israel
they're not exactly innocent or anything....
Yeah, who cares about murdering innocent children, I mean he was just a Jew. :shock: :?
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just a fuckin palestinian
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I haven't seen it reported that the injured kid is Jewish, I have only seen that he is a 16yo Israeli.
I am wondering what the range of the anti-tank missile is. From a google search, it looks like the bus was 2 miles from the Gaza boarder. I would have thought that school buses would be kept out of range of those types of weapons.
The Gaza militants have fired Kornet anti-tank missles in the past few months. They have a 5500 meter range.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M133_Kornet
Israel responded by killing a random guy in Gaza.
Then Hamas fired a bunch of rockets/mortars.
Then Israel ..... you know the drill.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/world/middleeast/08gaza.html
Missile From Gaza Hits School Bus
By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: April 7, 2011
JERUSALEM — A 16-year-old Israeli boy was critically wounded on Thursday when an anti-tank missile fired out of Gaza struck a school bus in southern Israel, according to police and military officials, setting off a new round of hostilities along the Israel-Gaza border.
The Israeli military responded immediately, firing artillery and tank shells into Gaza, and killing one Palestinian man, 50, according to a spokesman for the Hamas government medical services. A tank shell hit the man’s house, wounding four others and setting off a fire, the spokesman said.
In the hours after the strike on the bus, Gaza militants fired 45 rockets and mortars at southern Israel and the Israeli military said that its forces returned fire at the areas from where the rockets and mortars were launched.
This appeared to be the first time that an anti-tank missile hit a civilian target in the area. Short range rockets and mortar shells frequently fall in Israeli territory along the Israel-Gaza border, occasionally hitting houses but more often landing on open ground.
Violence along the Israel-Gaza border has ebbed and flowed in the past few weeks. The strike on the bus came after days of relative quiet.
In Gaza, the Popular Resistance Committees, a small armed group loyal to Hamas, the Islamic organization that controls the Palestinian territory, claimed responsibility for the attack.
One mortar shell hit a house in Ein Hashlosha, an Israeli village near the border, but no injuries were reported. Residents of the area had been told to take cover and enter bomb shelters.
The school bus was carrying only the driver and the youth at the time that it was hit at a junction near Saad, an Israeli communal farm near the border. The driver was lightly wounded. More than 30 other children who were on the bus had been dropped off at their homes shortly before the attack.
The bus was badly damaged and its windows were blown out. Roads in the area were closed.
Mr. Barak, the defense minister, instructed the Israeli Army “to quickly take all necessary measures and respond to the terrorist attack,” according to a statement from his office. He added that Israel holds Hamas responsible for all such attacks emanating from Gaza.
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peace is possible if they'd both drop the macho bs
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peace is possible if they'd both drop the macho bs
What does Gaza not have? Seriously, they're basically an independent nation except for the part about being officially recognized.
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you kidding?
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you kidding?
Not in the least. They have their own government, Hamas. They can continue to use the currency they already have. Their boarder with Israel, and Egypt is well established. That's basically nationhood right there.
The one legitimate counter I could come up with is that Israel has a blockade of the air, and waters of Gaza, but for the sake of this argument, lets say that Israel ended both those blockades. At that point, how is Gaza (we are ignoring the West Bank for now) not an independent nation, except for international recognition?
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There is a Palestinian nation that includes Gaza. What they don't have is a sovereign state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation
Nations that are a community of people sharing a common territory and government but are not sovereign states can be controversial subjects due, in no small part, to national security concerns of neighboring countries. A notable example of a people who consider themselves to be a nation are those of the State of Palestine, which has territories generally delineated. Palestinian nationalism in modern times arose between 1948 and 1950. The leader of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2005 spoke of "the Palestinian nation" in the context of Jerusalem and Palestine.[9] The State of Palestine is today widely recognized by sovereign states, although often in equivocal terms.[10] Still, op‑ed pieces in Israeli media question the existence of a Palestinian nation.[11]
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There is a Palestinian nation that includes Gaza. What they don't have is a sovereign state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation
Nations that are a community of people sharing a common territory and government but are not sovereign states can be controversial subjects due, in no small part, to national security concerns of neighboring countries. A notable example of a people who consider themselves to be a nation are those of the State of Palestine, which has territories generally delineated. Palestinian nationalism in modern times arose between 1948 and 1950. The leader of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2005 spoke of "the Palestinian nation" in the context of Jerusalem and Palestine.[9] The State of Palestine is today widely recognized by sovereign states, although often in equivocal terms.[10] Still, op‑ed pieces in Israeli media question the existence of a Palestinian nation.[11]
Ok, but lets say they independently of the West Bank get diplomatic recognition. What then?
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Then I guess Gaza would be it's own nation.
Israel wouldn't recognize Gaza, and Gaza wouldn't recognize Israel.
I'm not sure it would change much. It seems like 1/3 of the people on both sides hate each other...to death.
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Then I guess Gaza would be it's own nation.
Israel wouldn't recognize Gaza, and Gaza wouldn't recognize Israel.
I'm not sure it would change much. It seems like 1/3 of the people on both sides hate each other...to death.
I say get the 1/3 on both sides that hate each other all together in an arena, give them all machetes & bottles of cheap whiskey and let them hack each other to bits. Then the rest can live in relative peace.
I'm tired of hearing about these whiny bitches on both sides(not you guys talking about it, just the situation as a whole). Fuck em'.
Put it all on PPV and DVD and split the proceeds down the middle, given to both sides so they can rebuild.
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This seems to be on the same level as firing a anti-tank missile at a school bus.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/10/c_13821140.htm
Israeli airstrike turns Gaza family's life into torment
English.news.cn 2011-04-10 00:35:26
by Hamada Hattab, Omer Othmani
GAZA, April 9 (Xinhua) -- Ibrahim Qdieh, a 52-year-old resident of southern Gaza village of Abassan, never knew that a few-minute absence from home would rescue him from a possible death but left him gulping the pain of losing wife and daughter for the rest of his life.
His wife and daughter were killed in an Israeli air raid on their home, a 90-square-meter house built on a farm in the village in the east of Khan Younis city, during the ongoing tit-for-tat violence between Israel and the Islamic Hamas movement, which rules the coastal enclave since June 2007.
When the air raid took place on Friday afternoon, Qdieh and some family members were praying in a mosque, while his wife stayed at home, about to wash the children's school uniforms for the school day right after the weekend.
"I went to a nearby mosque for prayers as I usually do every week. I was shocked when a person suddenly stepped in and shouted 'the Israelis struck the house of Ibrahim Qdieh,'" said the father, adding "I couldn't believe what he said and I jumped and rushed to my house to see what happened."
Qdieh began to run unconsciously towards his house, "and as soon as I reached the house, I saw the horrible and awful crime, smears of blood and remnants all over the place. I wasn't able to believe my eyes to see my daughter Nidal, who was preparing for her wedding next week and my wife are dead."
An Israeli reconnaissance drone fired one missile, directly hitting the house. The missile took the lives of Nidal and her mother, and injured four others in the family.
"The missile didn't even give my wife enough time to prepare lunch for our children, and I saw all my kids were crying and screaming with fear and pain after they were all injured ... I'm not telling you something that I saw on television, it was live and I saw by my eyes," said the father.
Qdieh's 14-year-old son Ahmed, who was with his father in the mosque, told Xinhua that "when I heard that the our house was attacked, I went out running, screaming and crying until I arrived at home, and I saw the remnants of my mother and my sister and their blood."
"What did my mother and my sister do to cause Israel to strike our house with missiles? The Israelis made me lose the most precious persons in my life, my mother and my sister, who everyday checks out her wedding dress and was going to get married next week," said Ahmed.
Ahmed's 18-year-old sister Nedaa was critically wounded with the missile shrapnel hitting all her body. "My sister Nedaa is wounded, but still alive and waiting for God's mercy," the boy said, "She may live and she may die, while the other sister Wafa, 15, suffers wounds in her legs and abdomen."
"We were helping my mother in drying the laundry. We didn't do any kind of military action. There were no gunmen," Wafa said, " Suddenly and without any warning, the missile landed into our house. I fainted and I found myself in the hospital."
"When I woke up, I was told that my mother and my sister Nidal died and my sister Nedaa is in critical conditions," said Wafa.
The family called on Arab and international right groups "to come to the house and see the Israeli crimes that don't differentiate between militants and civilians."
They also called for an independent committee to investigate " the Israeli crime," saying that they had determined to sue Israel and its leaders "for the crimes they committed against innocent armless civilians while they were in their homes."
Since Thursday afternoon, 17 Palestinians have been killed and 60 wounded during intensive Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip following the rocket attacks on towns and communities in southern Israel, for which Hamas armed wing al-Qassam Brigades claimed responsibility.
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http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/04/12/3086845/netanyahu-cancels-bieber-meeting
Bibi cancels Bieber meeting over reported snub of beleaguered kids
April 12, 2011
JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly has canceled a meeting with pop star Justin Bieber after the singer refused to meet with children from southern Israel.
Netanyahu, who was scheduled to meet Bieber on Wednesday night, a day before his concert in Tel Aviv, invited children living in communities that have been hit by rockets fired from Gaza to join the sit-down. Bieber, however, refused to meet with the children, according to Israel Channel 2, causing Netanyahu to cancel the meeting.
Bieber and his manager reportedly asked for the meeting with Netanyahu.
The teen idol arrived Monday in Israel and is scheduled to tour the country. His itinerary includes visits to Christian sites in the Galilee, the Dead Sea, Masada, Acre and Caesarea. He has complained in tweets on Twitter that the Israeli paparazzi have forced him to hole up in his hotel room.
Meanwhile, some 700 children from southern Israeli communities that have been hit by rockets and missiles from Gaza were given free tickets to the Bieber concert.
The tickets for Thursday's show in Tel Aviv, as well as transportation, are a gift of The Schusterman Foundation-Israel, The Morningstar Foundation and ROI Community of Young Jewish Innovators.
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Bieber could become a useful ally in this situation.
General with bullhorn- "Ok Justin, just keep walking another 500 yards to the south, then turn left 20 ft and make your way back to me!"
J Bieber - "Wus up yo, why you havin' me do dis again?"
General with bullhorn - "Dont worry Mr Bieber, its standard custom in this region for celebrities to walk in public looking for land mi........um, I mean walk the outskirts of town mingling with the people"
J Bieber - "Aight yo, if ya think it makes my fans happy, its all good"
General with bullhorn "Riiiiiiiight Mr Bieber, just keep walking ok?"
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How often does something pass the senate by unanimous consent?
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=sr112-138&utm_source=@SenateFloor
Senate Resolution. 138: A resolution calling on the United Nations to rescind the Goldstone report, and for other purposes
Apr 14, 2011: Resolution agreed to in Senate without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.
Votes:
Apr 14, 2011: This resolution passed in the Senate by Unanimous Consent. A record of each senator’s position was not kept.
Summery:
4/8/2011--Introduced.
Calls on the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) members to reflect the author's repudiation of the Goldstone report's central findings, rescind the report, and reconsider further Council actions with respect to the report's findings. Urges United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon to work with United Nations (U.N.) member states to reform UNRHC so that it no longer unfairly, disproportionately, and falsely criticizes Israel. Requests Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon to do all in his power to redress the damage caused by the Goldstone report to Israel's reputation. Urges the United States to take a leadership role in getting the U.N. and its bodies to prevent any further action on the report's findings and limit the damage that this libelous report has caused to Israel and to the reputation of the U.N.
Full Text:
SRES 138 IS
112th CONGRESS
1st Session
S. RES. 138
Calling on the United Nations to rescind the Goldstone report, and for other purposes.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
April 8, 2011
Mrs. GILLIBRAND (for herself and Mr. RISCH) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations
RESOLUTION
Calling on the United Nations to rescind the Goldstone report, and for other purposes.
Whereas, on January 12, 2009, the United Nations Human Rights Council passed Resolution S-9/1, authorizing a ‘fact-finding mission’ regarding the conduct of the Government of Israel during Operation Cast Lead between December 27, 2008, and January 18, 2009;
Whereas that resolution prejudged the outcome of the fact finding mission by mandating that it investigate ‘violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying power, Israel, against the Palestinian people’;
Whereas, on September 15, 2009, the ‘United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict’ released its report, now known as the ‘Goldstone report’, named for its chair, South African Jurist Richard Goldstone;
Whereas the report made numerous unsubstantiated assertions against Israel, in particular accusing the Government of Israel of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting civilians during its operations in Gaza;
Whereas the report downplayed the overwhelming evidence that Hamas deliberately used Palestinian civilians and civilian institutions as human shields against Israel and deliberately targeted Israeli civilians with rocket fire for over eight years prior to the operation;
Whereas the United Nations Human Rights Council voted to welcome the report, to endorse its recommendations, and to condemn Israel without mentioning Hamas;
Whereas, as a result of the report, the United Nations General Assembly has passed two resolutions endorsing the report’s findings, the United Nations Secretary-General has been requested to submit several reports on implementation of its recommendations, and the Human Rights Council is scheduled to follow up on implementation of the report during future sessions;
Whereas the findings of the Goldstone report and the subsequent and continued United Nations member state actions following up on those findings have caused and continue to cause extensive harm to Israel’s standing in the world and could potentially create legal problems for Israel and its leaders;
Whereas Justice Richard Goldstone publicly retracted the central claims of the report he authored in an op-ed in The Washington Post on April 2, 2011;
Whereas Justice Goldstone wrote in that article that if he ‘had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document’;
Whereas Justice Goldstone concluded that, contrary to his report’s findings, the Government of Israel did not intentionally target civilians in the Gaza Strip as a matter of policy;
Whereas, in contrast, Justice Goldstone states that the crimes committed by Hamas were clearly intentional, were targeted at civilians, and constitute a violation of international law;
Whereas Justice Goldstone also conceded that the number of civilian casualties in Gaza was far smaller than the report alleged;
Whereas Justice Goldstone admitted that Israel investigated the findings in the report, while expressing disappointment that Hamas has not taken any steps to look into the report’s findings; and
Whereas Justice Goldstone concluded that ‘Israel, like any other sovereign nation, has the right and obligation to defend itself and its citizens’: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the Senate--
(1) calls on the United Nations Human Rights Council members to reflect the author’s repudiation of the Goldstone report’s central findings, rescind the report, and reconsider further Council actions with respect to the report’s findings;
(2) urges United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon to work with United Nations member states to reform the United Nations Human Rights Council so that it no longer unfairly, disproportionately, and falsely criticizes Israel on a regular basis;
(3) requests Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon to do all in his power to redress the damage to Israel’s reputation caused by the Goldstone report;
(4) asks the Secretary-General to do all he can to urge member states to prevent any further United Nations action on the report’s findings; and
(5) urges the United States to take a leadership role in getting the United Nations and its bodies to prevent any further action on the report’s findings and limit the damage that this libelous report has caused to our close ally Israel and to the reputation of the United Nations.
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Netanyahu doesn't thank the American people for giving Israel money, he thanks Obama and the US Congress.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hvwySupOeO-pFXLNtF2_V9iK8jkQ?docId=6583759
Israel's prime minister thanks US Congress for $205 million in aid for missile defence system
By The Associated Press – 15 hours ago
JERUSALEM — Israel's prime minister has thanked President Obama and the U.S. Congress for $205 million in aid to develop a new Israeli-made missile defence system. The aid was approved Friday.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Saturday that the assistance reflects "America's unshakable commitment to Israel in critical times."
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Hey, cant blame Netanyahu for thinking its "Obama & congress's" money. He's no more clueless than 80% of americans who think the same thing. :lol:
We're so fucked, its not even funny.
Well yeah, it sorta is.
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Whereas Justice Goldstone wrote in that article that if he ‘had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document’;
Translation: If I had known what a shit storm Israel would have created for me politically and career wise I would have continued to lie for their propaganda machine.
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http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israel-Settler-Killings-Two-Palestinians-Admit-To-Killings-Of-Five-Members-Of-Vogel-Family/Article/201104315974411?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15974411_Israel_Settler_Killings%3A_Two_Palestinians_Admit_To_Killings_Of_Five_Members_Of_Vogel_Family_
Teenagers 'Admit Killing Israeli Family'
Two Palestinian students arrested for the murder of five members of a Jewish settler family last month have confessed to the killings, according to Israeli security forces.
Only two children survived the attack, which was one of the most horrifying episodes in the region's recent rise in violence.
The attackers sneaked into the settlement of Itamar on March 11 and murdered the family members as they slept.
They killed a three-month-old baby girl, along with her parents, Udi and Ruth Fogel, and two other children, ages four and 11.
The family's bodies were discovered by their 12-year-old daughter when she returned home from a Friday night youth group meeting.
The killings shocked the people of Israel, with thousands attending the funeral in Jerusalem.
Prime Minister Binjamin Netanyahu described the killers as "animals".
A month-long investigation was carried out that involved mass arrest raids and detentions of hundreds of villagers.
The search for the killers focused on the West Bank village of Awarta, about a mile from Itamar.
It was put under curfew while residents were arrested, interrogated, fingerprinted and forced to give DNA samples.
Authorities identified the suspects as cousins Hakim Awad and Amjad Awad, who local residents said were aged 17 and 18 respectively.
An Israeli military commander reported that the two had acted independently, planning only to steal a rifle and panicking when the baby started crying.
However, a police spokesman said the duo had carried out the attack as part of a planned paramilitary operation.
The suspects' relatives, who live in Awarta, have criticised the arrests, saying the students are innocent.
Nouf Awad, the mother of Hakim, said her son was innocent and accused Israel of forcing him to confess.
"He is in high school. I am sure that he spent the night of the incident at home," she said.
"This is an awful crime and my son would not commit such a crime."
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A link for blackie that I just stumbled upon..
http://www.ifamericansknew.com/
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A link for blackie that I just stumbled upon..
http://www.ifamericansknew.com/
Really? really! I have only linked that website like 100 times.
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A link for blackie that I just stumbled upon..
http://www.ifamericansknew.com/
Really? really! I have only linked that website like 100 times.
and it sucks
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143680
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143680
For someone who is suppose to be a Libertarian minded individual you sure are a fan boy of at least one socialist oppressive government.
If Americans only Knew is the only website dedicated to reporting both sides accurately with verifiable references for their reports.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143680
For someone who is suppose to be a Libertarian minded individual you sure are a fan boy of at least one socialist oppressive government.
If Americans only Knew is the only website dedicated to reporting both sides accurately with verifiable references for their reports.
Nuh -uh
Alex Jones does that too.
/sarcasm on
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143680
For someone who is suppose to be a Libertarian minded individual you sure are a fan boy of at least one socialist oppressive government.
If Americans only Knew is the only website dedicated to reporting both sides accurately with verifiable references for their reports.
Nuh -uh
Alex Jones does that too.
/sarcasm on
Don't you love psychotic lover's response to the news story about the Palestinian government slaughtering Jewish worshippers and setting fire to Joseph's tomb? It's an attack on my discrediting statement of her shitty propaganda website. :shock: HAHA.
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Why do Jews always have big dicks? It's like black people.
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Why do Jews always have big dicks? It's like black people.
I dunno, but probably why theY cut some of it off.
ITS TOO BIG!!!!!!!!!!
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Is this for real?
A new advertisement in Israel, meant to show the “power and durability” of the Japanese Subaru car, caused outrage after showing a Subaru driven by a Jewish settler striking two Palestinian children in occupied East Jerusalem.
http://networkedblogs.com/gXzhp
Is that how confirmation bias works? You only see things the way you want to.....
Thats not a real ad, because its taken from an incident where Arab kids were throwing rocks at an Israeli driver that sped away through the throng of violent children.
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Is this for real?
A new advertisement in Israel, meant to show the “power and durability” of the Japanese Subaru car, caused outrage after showing a Subaru driven by a Jewish settler striking two Palestinian children in occupied East Jerusalem.
http://networkedblogs.com/gXzhp
Is that how confirmation bias works? You only see things the way you want to.....
For you, yes.
Thats not a real ad, because its taken from an incident where Arab kids were throwing rocks at an Israeli driver that sped away through the throng of violent children.
Your "because" does not have any bearing as to whether it's a real ad or not. The "ad" was posted on the Facebook page of Subaru Israel.
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/violent-israeli-car-ad-returns-1.797479
A few days ago, the picture surprisingly resurfaced on the Facebook page of the Subaru car company in Israel, with some words in Hebrew.
"We will see who will stand in front of you", the words read.
By Wednesday, the picture of the alleged advertisement was picked up by several Arabic-language newspapers and websites. Apart from the Palestinian media outlets, the story appeared in other Arab cities, including Beirut and Cairo.
"We have nothing to do with it," a spokesperson for the car company was quoted as saying. "We didn't put that ad on our official website."
The ad was immediately removed once "noticed" on the company's Facebook page, sources told Gulf News.
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Why do Jews always have big dicks? It's like black people.
I dunno, but probably why theY cut some of it off.
ITS TOO BIG!!!!!!!!!!
Plus they make a little profit by selling the tips. They package it as chewing gum and sell it to cocksuckers.
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Is this for real?
Is that how confirmation bias works? You only see things the way you want to.....
For you, yes.
Thats not a real ad, because its taken from an incident where Arab kids were throwing rocks at an Israeli driver that sped away through the throng of violent children.
Your "because" does not have any bearing as to whether it's a real ad or not. The "ad" was posted on the Facebook page of Subaru Israel.
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/violent-israeli-car-ad-returns-1.797479
A few days ago, the picture surprisingly resurfaced on the Facebook page of the Subaru car company in Israel, with some words in Hebrew.
"We will see who will stand in front of you", the words read.
By Wednesday, the picture of the alleged advertisement was picked up by several Arabic-language newspapers and websites. Apart from the Palestinian media outlets, the story appeared in other Arab cities, including Beirut and Cairo.
"We have nothing to do with it," a spokesperson for the car company was quoted as saying. "We didn't put that ad on our official website."
The ad was immediately removed once "noticed" on the company's Facebook page, sources told Gulf News.
I clicked both links, and its not clear to me who posted the link. Was it the company itself, or a fan of the facebook page? They just say it was on the facebook page without any context. Without context, you're essentially getting mad about what some comedian thought was a funny pic to post on Subaru Israeli's facebook page.
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I'm not getting mad about anything. I don't know if it was really posted on the facebook page.
Fans can post pictures on someone else's facebook page?
Subaru says they have no idea where the ad came from. According to them, it doesn't even sound like it was on a facebook page.
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=217515&R=R1
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0509/1224296491520.html
Vanunu demands revoking of his Israeli citizenship
MORDECHAI VANUNU, the man who revealed Israel’s nuclear secrets to the world in 1986, has demanded that Israel rescind his citizenship and allow him to leave the country.
In a weekend letter to Israeli interior minister Eli Yishai, the nuclear whistleblower cited a new law passed in March under which Israelis convicted of treason automatically lose their right to citizenship.
“I request that you set me free of Israel, since Israel does not want me nor do I want Israel,” he wrote. “I have no interest in Israeli citizenship, I don’t want to go on living here.”
Mr Vanunu, a low-level technician at Israel’s Dimona nuclear plant, first hit the headlines in 1986 when he leaked details with photographs he took surreptitiously to the British Sunday Times .
The revelations marked the first concrete proof that Israel had the capacity to manufacture nuclear bombs. Israel maintains a policy of “nuclear ambiguity”, neither confirming nor denying foreign reports of its nuclear potential.
Partly based on the secrets he revealed, foreign experts concluded that Israel was the world’s sixth-largest nuclear power.
Mr Vanunu, a convert to Christianity, said that although no state had offered him asylum, if released he would take the first flight out of Israel to any country willing to have him. He said he had no more nuclear secrets to reveal that could potentially damage Israeli security.
In 2004 he completed an 18-year sentence, most of which was spent in solitary confinement. Strict conditions were attached to his release, including a ban on leaving the country, a ban on entering the Palestinian territories and a ban on meeting foreign journalists.
Since his release, Mr Vanunu has twice served jail terms after convictions for parole violations.
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Sounds like he got it easy compared to Bradley Manning :?
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4077314,00.html
US to give Israel millions for missile defense
Congress pledges record-breaking funds for David's Sling, Arrow, and system to counter Iranian threat
WASHINGTON - The US pledged record-breaking funding for Israeli defense programs Wednesday as Congress voted to add $235.7 million dollars in aid for the David's Sling and Arrow 3 missile defense systems.
The additional funding will also go towards additional Arrow 2 batteries, as well as the development of a system to defend Israel from outer space, against Iranian missiles.
The House Appropriations Defense Subcommittee appropriated the funds in addition to aid already approved by the Obama administration, which amounts to around $205 million used to fund additional Iron Dome batteries.
The overall sum is a record-breaking $440 million for defense systems, in addition to the defense budget Israel receives regularly from the US, which stands at $3 billion.
Congressman Steve Rothman (D-NJ), a member of the House Appropriations Defense Subcommittee, released the following statement:
"Given America’s significant budget challenges, every single dollar we are expending on behalf of the US taxpayer must be given the highest level of scrutiny, including funds appropriated toward the defense of the United States and its allies."
He added, however, that the funding was earmarked for "essential joint US-Israel missile defense programs for the coming year."
Since 2007, the US has transferred over a billion dollars to Israel to help fund its missile defense systems, to protect its civilian population from rockets and missiles.
Iron Dome, the newest missile defense system on the ground, was set up in Ashkelon and Beersheba two months ago. On April 7 the system intercepted its first Grad rocket, which was fired at the Negev from Gaza. Recently another battery was set up to defend Ashdod.
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I bet what happens is that Israeli scientists will use this money to develop the technology for the US government, when if they found their own private funding they could make billions off of selling to the US government instead. Oh well.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4086961,00.html
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http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/unemployment-israel-s-other-existential-threat-1.284465
The unemployed are concentrated in two communities: ultra-Orthodox and Arabs. Thirty years ago, only 21 percent of ultra-Orthodox said they didn't see themselves as part of the job market. Today that figure stands at 65 percent. Among Arab men, unemployment has risen to 27 percent.
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http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/unemployment-israel-s-other-existential-threat-1.284465
The unemployed are concentrated in two communities: ultra-Orthodox and Arabs. Thirty years ago, only 21 percent of ultra-Orthodox said they didn't see themselves as part of the job market. Today that figure stands at 65 percent. Among Arab men, unemployment has risen to 27 percent.
The culture of nonwork in America and Israel caused by welfare and similar programs is a huge problem in the Haredi community. Many people live just off of substance levels, and don't have any practical educations. If this were to ever stop, they wouldn't be qualified for any actual work.
Changing this is a challenge too. The guys at the top get everyone to block vote their way, so taxes are high, and benefits keep coming. I wrote a letter to a local Rebbe here, and was told to not put my real name on it because I wanted to point out some economic realities their community would be facing. The people around me warned of thuggish behavior on the part of those who would see the letter before it reached the hands of the Rebbe. Its a sick, frustrating situation.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43539991/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/
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http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Palestinians+warned+over+statehood/5063145/story.html
The U.S. House of Representatives closed ranks Wednesday to warn the Palestinians that they risk cuts in U.S. aid if they pursue UN recognition of a future state not defined in direct talks with Israel.
A resolution to that effect had 320 co-sponsors out of the often polarized chamber's 435 voting members and was on track to sail to passage late in the day, one week after the U.S. Senate unanimously approved a similar measure.
The bill also urged U.S. President Barack Obama's administration to consider suspending aid to the Palestinian Authority pending a view of a unity deal between president Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction and the radical Islamist movement Hamas.
"Any Palestinian unity government must publicly and formally forswear terrorism, accept Israel's right to exist and reaffirm previous agreements made with Israel," it says.
Republican House Majority Leader Eric Cantor and Democratic House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer crafted the measure.
The measure reaffirmed American support for a two-state solution that would see "a democratic, Jewish state of Israel and a viable, democratic Palestinian state, living side-by-side in peace, security and mutual recognition."
But it warned of "serious implications for the United States assistance programs for the Palestinians and the Palestinian Authority" if they seek UN recognition of a future state not crafted in talks with Israel.
Peace talks ground to a halt in September 2010 when Israel failed to renew a partial freeze on settlement construction in the occupied West Bank. Since then, the Palestinians have refused to return to talks.
They are planning to seek recognition of their state within the 1967 lines that preceded the Six-Day War when the UN General Assembly meets in September, despite opposition of Israel and the United States.
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Sounds fair to me.
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Sounds fair to me.
I guess. If the US is giving out money, it should have strong conditions attached.
The problem is Israel is treated unfairly. Israel gets an unfair share of US foreign aid. When was the last time the US threatened to cut aid to Israel with a non-binding resolution?
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Sounds fair to me.
I guess. If the US is giving out money, it should have strong conditions attached.
The problem is Israel is treated unfairly. Israel gets an unfair share of US foreign aid. When was the last time the US threatened to cut aid to Israel with a non-binding resolution?
Its a bit more complex than the article goes into. Basically, its Israel keeping in line with the Oslo accords, in not doing anything unilaterally, with the Palestinians trying to work unilaterally. The Israelis are then thinking to themselves "Why should we keep to an agreement that they aren't?"
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Sounds fair to me.
I guess. If the US is giving out money, it should have strong conditions attached.
The problem is Israel is treated unfairly. Israel gets an unfair share of US foreign aid. When was the last time the US threatened to cut aid to Israel with a non-binding resolution?
Its a bit more complex than the article goes into. Basically, its Israel keeping in line with the Oslo accords, in not doing anything unilaterally, with the Palestinians trying to work unilaterally. The Israelis are then thinking to themselves "Why should we keep to an agreement that they aren't?"
And Israel gets treated unfairly because Obama telling them that Jews aren't allowed to build their homes in certain areas of the country because those are supposed to be Muslim Only zones as declared by Hamas, Hizbollah, and the Palestinian Authority.
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Sounds fair to me.
I guess. If the US is giving out money, it should have strong conditions attached.
The problem is Israel is treated unfairly. Israel gets an unfair share of US foreign aid. When was the last time the US threatened to cut aid to Israel with a non-binding resolution?
Its a bit more complex than the article goes into. Basically, its Israel keeping in line with the Oslo accords, in not doing anything unilaterally, with the Palestinians trying to work unilaterally. The Israelis are then thinking to themselves "Why should we keep to an agreement that they aren't?"
:lol:
http://www.redress.cc/palestine/jcook20100724
[youtube]eeT_KLuCdug[/youtube]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[13][14] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations," and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location" - such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords," Netanyahu affirmed.
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The Oslo Accords are Bullshit. It was the UN basically making Israel fund and arm Islamic terrorists, guess who is now in control of the weapons and facilities the Israelis gave to the "Palestinian Authority Police" as part of the Oslo Accords? Hamas.
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The Oslo Accords are Bullshit. It was the UN basically making Israel fund and arm Islamic terrorists, guess who is now in control of the weapons and facilities the Israelis gave to the "Palestinian Authority Police" as part of the Oslo Accords? Hamas.
I dunno. The PA hasn't done anything horridly stupid for a long time now. Abbas is better than Arafat ever was. At least he isn't as overtly corrupt.
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The Oslo Accords are Bullshit. It was the UN basically making Israel fund and arm Islamic terrorists, guess who is now in control of the weapons and facilities the Israelis gave to the "Palestinian Authority Police" as part of the Oslo Accords? Hamas.
I dunno. The PA hasn't done anything horridly stupid for a long time now. Abbas is better than Arafat ever was. At least he isn't as overtly corrupt.
You are correct.
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Sounds fair to me.
I guess. If the US is giving out money, it should have strong conditions attached.
The problem is Israel is treated unfairly. Israel gets an unfair share of US foreign aid. When was the last time the US threatened to cut aid to Israel with a non-binding resolution?
Its a bit more complex than the article goes into. Basically, its Israel keeping in line with the Oslo accords, in not doing anything unilaterally, with the Palestinians trying to work unilaterally. The Israelis are then thinking to themselves "Why should we keep to an agreement that they aren't?"
OH what the fuck ever. Israel is giving automatic weapons to religious zealots so that they will steal land and pay taxes. Their kind of fucked up goes far beyond any kind of attempt to be fair. I have no idea how people can pretend otherwise.
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Sounds fair to me.
I guess. If the US is giving out money, it should have strong conditions attached.
The problem is Israel is treated unfairly. Israel gets an unfair share of US foreign aid. When was the last time the US threatened to cut aid to Israel with a non-binding resolution?
Its a bit more complex than the article goes into. Basically, its Israel keeping in line with the Oslo accords, in not doing anything unilaterally, with the Palestinians trying to work unilaterally. The Israelis are then thinking to themselves "Why should we keep to an agreement that they aren't?"
OH what the fuck ever. Israel is giving automatic weapons to religious zealots so that they will steal land and pay taxes. Their kind of fucked up goes far beyond any kind of attempt to be fair. I have no idea how people can pretend otherwise.
In a lot of ways, they are keeping with Oslo. They evacuated all settlements from Gaza without any counter-terms. They didn't eradicate Hamas during Operation Cast Lead, even though its the PLO that is the governing voice of the Palestinian people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
About the charges of Israel giving weapons to settlers, or that they tend to be religious, or steal land, I do not know enough to comment. I've never been to Israel.
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In a lot of ways, they are keeping with Oslo.
And in many more ways, they aren't.
http://www.robat.scl.net/content/NAD/negotiations/neg_violations/index.php
Israel’s Violations of the Oslo Agreements:
Israel Has Failed to End its Occupation
The Oslo Agreements provide that Palestinians would have their freedom by May 1999. To date, Israel’s military occupation not only continues, but intensifies. The Declaration of Principles provides that the interim period is not to exceed five years (Article 1), from May 4, 1994. This is confirmed in Article 4 of the Wye River Memorandum. The interim period commenced with Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho on May 1994. By May 1999, the interim period was to have ended and Palestinians were to be given their freedom. To date, Israel has failed to end its military occupation.
After missing this deadline, Israel renegotiated a new deadline with the PLO. Under Article 1 of the Sharm El-Sheikh Memorandum, the Palestinians were to be given their freedom on September 13, 2000. By September 13, 2000, the Palestinians were still living under military occupation and continue to do so.
Israel Continues to Build and Expand Its Illegal Colonies
The Fourth Geneva Convention, ratified by Israel in June 1951 and which was not superceded by the Oslo Agreements, prohibits Israel from establishing colonies in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Article 49 (6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention states “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” The Oslo Agreements reaffirm this position. Article 31 of the Interim Agreement provides that “the two parties view the West Bank and Gaza Strip as a single territorial unit, the integrity and status of which will be preserved during the interim period.” Article 31 also provides that “neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations.”
Despite these articles and in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel has since 1993:
Doubled the number of settlers living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. There are now approximately 400,000;[2]
Increased the number of illegal housing units in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (excluding Occupied East Jerusalem) by 62%;[3]
Confiscated more than 60,000 acres of Palestinian land for colony construction and related by-pass roads, uprooted 220,000 trees and demolished 690 homes in the West Bank alone; [4] and
Removed from official government maps the Green Line separating Israel from the Occupied Palestinian Territories, thereby failing to recognize the Occupied Palestinian Territories as a “single territorial unit”. (See official Touring Map of Israel issued by the Israeli Ministry of Tourism).
Israel Fails to Withdraw from Palestinian Territories
Under the Oslo Agreements, Israel’s occupation forces were to have withdrawn from substantially all of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip by July, 1997 – more than four and a half years ago. The process of withdrawal was to be carried out in three phases, beginning in October 1996 and ending in July 1997 and would have transferred approximately 88 percent of the West Bank to Palestinian control. Israel delayed each and every phase of the withdrawal. The Palestinian Authority has only full jurisdiction over 17.2 percent of the West Bank.
Israel Fails to Release Political Prisoners
Throughout Israel’s 35-year occupation of the Palestinian Territories, Israel imprisoned and detained thousands of Palestinians. Israel’s rate was so widespread that Palestinians suffered from one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world.
The Oslo Agreements contain a number of provisions regarding the release of political prisoners.
Article 20 of the Gaza Strip and Jericho Agreement required Israel to release over 5,000 Palestinian political prisoners. Article 16 of the Interim Agreement provided for further releases of Palestinian prisoners in three phases, the last of which was to occur during permanent status negotiations. Finally, Article 3 of the Sharm El-Sheikh Memorandum provided for the release of 350 political prisoners in September and October of 1999 and in December 1999 and January 2000. Despite these agreements, as of December 2000, approximately 1,350 Palestinians remained in Israeli custody, in violation of the Oslo Agreements.[5]
Israel Fails to Open the Northern Safe Passage Route between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and Closes the Southern Safe Passage Route
Under the Interim Agreement (Annex I, Article 10) and the Sharm El-Sheikh Memorandum (Article 5), Israel was required to open both a northern and a southern safe passage route to connect the West Bank to the Gaza Strip for the movement of persons, vehicles and goods. The southern safe passage route was closed on October 8, 2000. The northern safe passage route was never opened.
Israel Fails to Co-operate on Security Matters
The Interim Agreement requires Israel and the Palestinian Authority to cooperate on security matters. (Annex I, Article 3). Since October 2000, Israel unilaterally decided not to cooperate with the PA on security matters. Repeated calls by the PA to resume security cooperation have been ignored by Israel.
Israel Uses Lethal Force
The Interim Agreement provides clear rules of engagement for Israeli soldiers:
[T]he use of firearms…shall not be allowed, except as a last resort after all attempts at controlling the act or the incident, such as warning the perpetrator or shooting in the air, have failed or are ineffective or without any promise of achieving the intended result in the circumstances. Use of firearms should be aimed at deterring or apprehending, and not killing the perpetrator. The use of firearms shall cease once the danger is past. (Interim Agreement, Annex I, Article XI (3)(c)).
Despite this provision, Israeli soldiers have deliberately aimed at killing Palestinian protestors and have not used live fire as a last resort. After conducting an inquiry into the Israel’s practices during the current uprising, Physicians for Human Rights (USA) concluded that the “IDF soldiers are not firing only in life-threatening situations and they are firing at heads and thighs in order to injure and kill, not to avoid loss of life and injury.”[6] Furthermore, even non-violent demonstrations (including those that do not involve stone-throwing), have met with violent responses by Israeli occupation forces. [7]
Israel Denies Palestinians Freedom of Movement
The Interim Agreement compels both sides to “respect[] and preserv[e] without obstacles, normal and smooth movement of people, vehicles and goods within the West Bank, and between the West Bank and Gaza Strip.” (Interim Agreement, Annex I, Article 1 (2)).
In contravention of these obligations, Israel has repeatedly imposed severe restrictions on the movement of persons, vehicles and goods through the establishment of more than 120 checkpoints in the West Bank alone, (dividing the West Bank into 64 cantons)[8] and through Israel’s destruction of Palestinian roads and bridges.[9]
Israel Fails to Prosecute Israeli Settlers for Crimes Committed Against Palestinians
Under the Interim Agreement, Israel is required to prosecute Israelis for crimes committed against Palestinians (Annex I, Articles 2 and 3). Since the signing of the Interim Agreement, there have been hundreds of attacks against Palestinians and Palestinian property. Since October 2000 alone, 44 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli settlers, and there have been hundreds of attacks on Palestinian property.[10] Israel has not prosecuted ANY of these settlers for their crimes.[11]
They evacuated all settlements from Gaza without any counter-terms.
Israel retained control over Gaza’s borders, airspace, coastline, infrastructure, power, import-exports, etc.
Evacuating the Gaza strip allowed Israel to dole out collective punishment on the entire area. Israel didn't leave Gaza to be nice.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/03/israel
Israel is deploying a terrifying new tactic against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip by letting loose deafening "sound bombs" that cause widespread fear, induce miscarriages and traumatise children.
The removal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip opened the way for the military to use air force jets to create dozens of sonic booms by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude, sending shockwaves across the territory, often at night. Palestinians liken the sound to an earthquake or huge bomb. They describe the effect as being hit by a wall of air that is painful on the ears, sometimes causing nosebleeds and "leaving you shaking inside".
The Palestinian health ministry says the sonic booms have led to miscarriages and heart problems. The United Nations has demanded an end to the tactic, saying it causes panic attacks in children. The shockwaves have also damaged buildings by cracking walls and smashing thousands of windows.
"I have never heard such a loud explosion. I thought it was right over the top of my building," said the owner, Tareq Dayyeh. "Sometimes you hear the rockets the Israelis fire but this was different. I felt like I was in the middle of a bomb. When I ran out the door I thought I might find the rest of the street was gone."
Over the past week, Israeli jets created 28 sonic booms by flying at high speed and low altitude over the Gaza Strip, sometimes as little as an hour apart through the night. During five days in late September, the air force caused 29 sonic booms.
A senior Israeli army intelligence source, who the military would not permit to be named, said the tactic is intended to break civilian support for armed Palestinian groups. "We are trying to send a message in a way that doesn't harm people. We want to encourage the Palestinian public to do something about the terror situation," he said. "What are the alternatives? We are not like the terrorists who shoot civilians. We are cautious. We make sure nobody is really hurt."
Yesterday, two medical human rights groups asked the Tel Aviv high court to outlaw the use of sound bombs on the grounds it amounts to illegal collective punishment and is detrimental to health.
"The stress is phenomenal," said Eyad El Sarraj, a psychologist and director of Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, one of the groups filing the petition. "The Israelis do it after midnight and then every one or two hours. You try to go to sleep and then there's another one. When it happens night after night you become exhausted. You get a heightened sense of alert, waiting continuously for it to happen. People suffer hypertension, fatigue, sleeplessness.
"For children, the loud noise means danger. Adults may know it's only a sound but small children feel threatened. They are crying and clinging to their parents. Afterwards they are dazed and fearful, waiting for something to happen."
The UN Palestinian refugee agency said a majority of the patients seen at its clinics as a result of the sonic booms were under 16 and suffering from symptoms such as anxiety attacks, bedwetting, muscle spasms, temporary loss of hearing and breathing difficulties.
Although the Israelis say the shockwaves do not cause casualties, doctors at Gaza's Shifa hospital said the overflights had forced women to miscarry. The number of miscarriages had increased by 40%, according to Jumaa Saqqa, a surgeon and hospital spokesman. "There were no other symptoms and the rise happened after the sonic booms. We can see no other explanation. The number of patients admitted to the cardiac care unit doubled. Some of them proved to have suffered serious harm."
Dr Saqqa said one overflight occurred while he was operating. The Palestinian health ministry estimates the sonic booms have caused at least 20 miscarriages.
The UN's Middle East envoy, Alvaro de Soto, wrote to the Israeli high command this week saying he was "deeply concerned at the impact on children, particularly infants, of the use of sonic booms".
Mr de Soto said he did not accept that the tactic was a legitimate response to Islamic Jihad and Hamas firing rockets into Israeli towns. "Sonic booms are an indiscriminate instrument, the use of which punishes the population collectively. We ask therefore that their use be stopped without delay," the letter said.
The military was forced to apologise after one sonic boom was unintentionally heard hundreds of kilometres inside Israel last week. Maariv newspaper described it as sounding "like a heavy bombardment. The noise that shook the Israeli skies was frightening. Thousands of citizens leapt in panic from their beds, and many of them placed worried calls to the police and the fire department. The Tel Aviv and central district police switchboards crashed."
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The Israeli parliament has passed a controversial law that will punish any Israeli individual or organisation boycotting West Bank settlements.
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Jew on Jew crime.
http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20110713/NEWS02/110713017
Cops: NY man in custody boy's remains in fridge
NEW YORK (AP) — A young Brooklyn boy who vanished while walking home from a day camp in one of the safest parts of the city was killed and dismembered by a stranger he had turned to for help after getting lost, police said Wednesday.
An intense search for the missing 8-year-old, Leiby Kletzky, ended with the gruesome discovery of pieces of his dismembered body inside the home of a man who had been seen with the child around the time he disappeared, police said.
Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said the 35-year-old suspect, Levi Aron, made statements implicating himself in the boy's death. Formal charges are pending. The investigation continued, and Kelly said Aron was still being interviewed by detectives. It's not clear if he had an attorney, and the home he shared with his parents was a crime scene Wednesday, and his par-ents were not there.
When detectives arrived at the man's attic apartment around 2:40 a.m., they asked him where the boy was and he nodded toward the kitchen, Kelly said.
Detectives saw blood on the freezer door and they opened it to discover bloody knives, a cutting board and feet inside, according to a law en-forcement official who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.
The rest of the body was found inside a red suitcase that had been tossed into a trash bin in another Brook-lyn neighborhood, police said.
Police and volunteers had been looking since late Monday afternoon for Leiby, who disappeared while on his way to meet his mother in the Orthodox Jewish neighborhood of Borough Park.
Kelly said the boy's par-ents had taken him through the route on Friday, and he was to walk the seven blocks from the camp to meet his mother. He left at about 5:05 p.m., and got lost.
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"Cops: NY man in custody boy's remains in fridge"
There must be a Jewish term for this sort of crime, with lots of sh's and z's and t's and th's...
Shizzoboigethekezshizzuh or somethin.
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"Cops: NY man in custody boy's remains in fridge"
There must be a Jewish term for this sort of crime, with lots of sh's and z's and t's and th's...
Shizzoboigethekezshizzuh or somethin.
Levi Aron.
He was arrested on his birthday. I know this because a celebrity realized he was "friends" with him, while mentioning how sick the crime was.
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What's the word for being arrested on your birthday?
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What's the word for being arrested on your birthday?
http://www.lohud.com/article/20110716/NEWS03/107160341/Brooklyn-slay-suspect-stranger-most-New-Square-wedding?odyssey=mod|mostview
Well, I got about a half dozen requests to search for the kid, and since I live in Monsey, I didn't bother to heed the call. Now they say he took the kid, alive, to a wedding in New Square, which is practically in my backyard.
:(
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yup
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Have a heart, dead men pay no restitution.
His execution should have a pay per view with all proceeds going to the victims family.
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http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-bell-found-jerusalem-old-city-sewer-175003456.html
This is huge news for Biblical archeology.
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Great, another fucking inanimate object for people to rally around and die for.
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Great, another fucking inanimate object for people to rally around and die for.
The fuck are you talking about?
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You'll find out.
Maybe I am wrong. Sorry. Just got done talking to my daughter who lost a acquaintance on that fucking island in Norway where those kids were shot, and I didn't have much patience for blind belief when I read your article.
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Great, another fucking inanimate object for people to rally around and die for.
The fuck are you talking about?
He's talking about how you called this a big win for biblical archaeology. Like finding this bell means g-d really did give other people's land to jews and told them it was ok to destroy them and their families and their lives.
I'm afraid that bell doesn't mean shit. The bible also said that jesus rode into bethlehem on a donkey, so if they find any donkey bones in Jerusalem it must mean Jews are evil and killed Jesus. Oh wait, that wouldn't mean shit either.
It's interesting that bell, I'd like to touch it and look at it and shake it, but fuck you and your biblical archaeology bullshit. You are NOT the chosen people. NO GOD likes you any more than anyone else. You are full of delusions.
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Great, another fucking inanimate object for people to rally around and die for.
The fuck are you talking about?
He's talking about how you called this a big win for biblical archaeology. Like finding this bell means g-d really did give other people's land to jews and told them it was ok to destroy them and their families and their lives.
I'm afraid that bell doesn't mean shit. The bible also said that jesus rode into bethlehem on a donkey, so if they find any donkey bones in Jerusalem it must mean Jews are evil and killed Jesus. Oh wait, that wouldn't mean shit either.
It's interesting that bell, I'd like to touch it and look at it and shake it, but fuck you and your biblical archaeology bullshit. You are NOT the chosen people. NO GOD likes you any more than anyone else. You are full of delusions.
Jesus Christ, what the fuck is wrong with you?
You're having an argument with yourself in your head.
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I'm not arguing with myself. I'm just pointing out once again that even if there was nothing else wrong with the effects the bible has the very idea of one god having a chosen people and those people believing it and having one set of rules about dealing with other chosen people and a different set for dealing with those of use non-chosens is extremely offensive. Makes you and your kind the biggest bigots of all. The kind of person a decent person wouldn't choose to interact with.
Also you with your impossible standards about rural road delineations and safety barriers that you think you're entitled to and your going on about your black suit and how other people not in their black suits should not be seen in your public spaces to muddle your aesthetic paradise just make me hate the shit out of you on a personal level.
Fuck your fucking jewy ways and your biblical archaeology. Any mention of it just reminds me of the millions of lives your people destroy because god told you to. I fear people like you. What happens when you grow strong enough and decide god gave you MY land and MY wife.
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I'm not arguing with myself. I'm just pointing out once again that even if there was nothing else wrong with the effects the bible has the very idea of one god having a chosen people and those people believing it and having one set of rules about dealing with other chosen people and a different set for dealing with those of use non-chosens is extremely offensive. Makes you and your kind the biggest bigots of all. The kind of person a decent person wouldn't choose to interact with.
Also you with your impossible standards about rural road delineations and safety barriers that you think you're entitled to and your going on about your black suit and how other people not in their black suits should not be seen in your public spaces to muddle your aesthetic paradise just make me hate the shit out of you on a personal level.
Fuck your fucking jewy ways and your biblical archaeology. Any mention of it just reminds me of the millions of lives your people destroy because god told you to. I fear people like you. What happens when you grow strong enough and decide god gave you MY land and MY wife.
I'm quoting this so you can't later deny saying it.
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I'm not arguing with myself. I'm just pointing out once again that even if there was nothing else wrong with the effects the bible has the very idea of one god having a chosen people and those people believing it and having one set of rules about dealing with other chosen people and a different set for dealing with those of use non-chosens is extremely offensive. Makes you and your kind the biggest bigots of all. The kind of person a decent person wouldn't choose to interact with.
Also you with your impossible standards about rural road delineations and safety barriers that you think you're entitled to and your going on about your black suit and how other people not in their black suits should not be seen in your public spaces to muddle your aesthetic paradise just make me hate the shit out of you on a personal level.
Fuck your fucking jewy ways and your biblical archaeology. Any mention of it just reminds me of the millions of lives your people destroy because god told you to. I fear people like you. What happens when you grow strong enough and decide god gave you MY land and MY wife.
Dude you are fucking psychotic.
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No I'm not. I just don't like people. Especially this person. He has made me feel unwelcome to exist in his world on more than one occasion and for more than one reason. I'm simply returning the favor.
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I am also a bit uncomfortable with generalising. "Jews" didn't do anything. I guess one can say Israel did something evil or bad but Americans can't throw too many stones at well... anybody. The guy that plays Alice Cooper and Jimmy Swaggart are both strongly Christian- one is pragmatic and cool the other is a prick.
Dio is the most conflicted person I have ever communicated with, so generalising with him doesn't really work anyway.
Like saying "Niggers suck" when discussing Sammy Davis Jr.. No one could take you seriously.
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I am also a bit uncomfortable with generalising. "Jews" didn't do anything. I guess one can say Israel did something evil or bad but Americans can't throw too many stones at well... anybody. The guy that plays Alice Cooper and Jimmy Swaggart are both strongly Christian- one is pragmatic and cool the other is a prick.
Dio is the most conflicted person I have ever communicated with, so generalising with him doesn't really work anyway.
Like saying "Niggers suck" when discussing Sammy Davis Jr.. No one could take you seriously.
He wears the uniform. And he supports shit I find totally fucking evil. Like destroying Jericho and taking their stuff cuz their god didn't like they way those guys lived.
Ever seen ancient aliens? What if the Jew god really is an alien and really is gonna come back and destroy more people and take their stuff? My mom has a british surname so I'd be fucked. It matters little that his god hasn't told him to kill me and take my stuff because he doesn't like how I live my life. He's willing to. He is supportive of those perpetrators the last time around. I don't really believe in pulling punches about the evils of religion. It's fucking evil the shit he supports and he shouldn't be made to feel welcome among gentiles who value their life, liberty and property, cuz he doesn't respect it, not if his god tells him not to.
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I had learned a little about liberty when I first heard the story of the jews circumsizing that city and then killing them all in the night while they were weak.
Did the head jew demand they be punished eye for an eye style? Hell no, he got out, protected the violent criminals, and he was supposed to be one of the good guys. He's well admired among jews. I forget his name. Joseph's dad. That's as sick and twisted and calling Alexander "great". I fear people who can reconcile shit like that in their mind, mention that guys name as anything but a horrifying monster that is the cause of why people hate and fear jews. They must be capable of horrendous shit. And they are, look at Palestine.
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He wears the uniform. And he supports shit I find totally fucking evil. Like destroying Jericho and taking their stuff cuz their god didn't like they way those guys lived.
Ever seen ancient aliens? What if the Jew god really is an alien and really is gonna come back and destroy more people and take their stuff? My mom has a british surname so I'd be fucked. It matters little that his god hasn't told him to kill me and take my stuff because he doesn't like how I live my life. He's willing to. He is supportive of those perpetrators the last time around. I don't really believe in pulling punches about the evils of religion. It's fucking evil the shit he supports and he shouldn't be made to feel welcome among gentiles who value their life, liberty and property, cuz he doesn't respect it, not if his god tells him not to.
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I had learned a little about liberty when I first heard the story of the jews circumsizing that city and then killing them all in the night while they were weak.
Did the head jew demand they be punished eye for an eye style? Hell no, he got out, protected the violent criminals, and he was supposed to be one of the good guys. He's well admired among jews. I forget his name. Joseph's dad. That's as sick and twisted and calling Alexander "great". I fear people who can reconcile shit like that in their mind, mention that guys name as anything but a horrifying monster that is the cause of why people hate and fear jews. They must be capable of horrendous shit. And they are, look at Palestine.
What are you talking about? How do you know how people interpret the bible?
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I also am not a fan of David or Joshua or having any sense of entitlement due to any old and conflicted book like the Old Testament.
I admire Moses as a man historically. Brilliant at using opportunities made by nature to defeat a army. Probably one of histories most underrated genius/ warriors. I think throwing the god thing in the story actually takes credit from the man.
How many heroes do us gentiles have historically? Boudica, Spartacus, Alaric I, maybe. They all are famous for caring about their troops and people and either losing or dying early deaths (but to be fair, they kicked a lot of ass first). Most of our historical hero's (all documented and cross- referenced a hell of a lot better then any of those Jewish heroes) are pricks.
My point is going back thousands of years to find something to believe in or be mad about makes no sense to me.
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Dead people's baggage.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAVyiJ1SINE[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAVyiJ1SINE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAVyiJ1SINE)
Can't say I disagree with much in this bit.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146368
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http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-admits-murdering-settler-family-army-194719605.html (http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-admits-murdering-settler-family-army-194719605.html)
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MATISYAHU
I Shaved My Big, Jewish Beard
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/12/13/1213-matisyahu-bn-2.jpg)
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/12/13/1213-matisyahu-subasset-02.jpg)
http://matisyahuworld.com/news/detail/note_from_matisyahu/ (http://matisyahuworld.com/news/detail/note_from_matisyahu/)
NOTE FROM MATISYAHU
12.13.11
This morning I posted a photo of myself on Twitter.
No more Chassidic reggae superstar.
Sorry folks, all you get is me…no alias. When I started becoming religious 10 years ago it was a very natural and organic process. It was my choice. My journey to discover my roots and explore Jewish spirituality—not through books but through real life. At a certain point I felt the need to submit to a higher level of religiosity…to move away from my intuition and to accept an ultimate truth. I felt that in order to become a good person I needed rules—lots of them—or else I would somehow fall apart. I am reclaiming myself. Trusting my goodness and my divine mission.
Get ready for an amazing year filled with music of rebirth. And for those concerned with my naked face, don’t worry…you haven’t seen the last of my facial hair.
- Matisyahu
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All I Want for Christmas Is... Jews (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8LmMtScH3g#)
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MATISYAHU
I Shaved My Big, Jewish Beard
http://matisyahuworld.com/news/detail/note_from_matisyahu/ (http://matisyahuworld.com/news/detail/note_from_matisyahu/)
NOTE FROM MATISYAHU
12.13.11
This morning I posted a photo of myself on Twitter.
No more Chassidic reggae superstar.
Sorry folks, all you get is me…no alias. When I started becoming religious 10 years ago it was a very natural and organic process. It was my choice. My journey to discover my roots and explore Jewish spirituality—not through books but through real life. At a certain point I felt the need to submit to a higher level of religiosity…to move away from my intuition and to accept an ultimate truth. I felt that in order to become a good person I needed rules—lots of them—or else I would somehow fall apart. I am reclaiming myself. Trusting my goodness and my divine mission.
Get ready for an amazing year filled with music of rebirth. And for those concerned with my naked face, don’t worry…you haven’t seen the last of my facial hair.
- Matisyahu
We went to the same yeshiva for a while. I met the guy, and actually went to his wedding. We have a bunch of friends in common. I don't think having a beard or not is a big thing in the scheme of things, which is why I think he is pretty brave, being a public figure and all, for shaving it off. I just hope it isn't because he's down a dark path.
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If anything, I would think that shaving that big beard off would help when walking down a darkened path. Lets you see the ground and stuff easier.
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Mocking Jesus on Israeli Zionist TV - צליבת ישו - The Crucifixion of Yeshu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RY83mAr5uA#)
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Man, the Jews improved the hell out of Sesame Street.
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(http://a7.org/Resizer.ashx?source=album&album=3001&image=29281&a=450&b=1200&save=1)
(http://a7.org/Resizer.ashx?source=album&album=3001&image=28493&a=450&b=1200&save=1)
Iran: Genocide a Moral Obligation
An article calling for the destruction of Israel and genocide has appeared on numerous official government and military websites in Iran
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/152478#.TzJh5SmqbJF (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/152478#.TzJh5SmqbJF)
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What do you think Israel should do about it Iran, if anything?
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What do you think Israel should do about it Iran, if anything?
Take care of their nuclear program. They're not doing too bad so far. It's just that moronic "social justice, peace now" idiots condemn them for taking care of business in their own discreet way.
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Discreet? Are you fucking kidding? IraN SUCKS but Israel needs a face check!
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What do you think Israel should do about it Iran, if anything?
Take care of their nuclear program. They're not doing too bad so far. It's just that moronic "social justice, peace now" idiots condemn them for taking care of business in their own discreet way.
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/US-bases-Iran11.jpg)
And, STFU
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/4756_97377436314_507176314_2395347_4723662_n.jpg?dl=1)
WOOO EVIL J00Z BE AXE-KING FOUR DESTRUCTION.
Obviously, the evil Israeli Jews are just taunting Iran and baiting them into genocidal nuclear attacks by promoting women's rights and gay rights in the Middle East. Those Jews clearly need a nuclear facecheck by Iran for allowing people of all races, creeds, and religions to live there and represent themselves politically.
STFU, go post some youtube videos.
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nO - Not destruction just quit trying to be the bully.
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check some of your own Israeli newspapers - stop hating!
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nO - Not destruction just quit trying to be the bully.
You can't frame Israel into being the bully if its the other countries that keep provoking the attacks.
Examples would be
1948
1967
1973
and Operation Cast Lead
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Iran IS threatening the US, but that's for another thread. And they have threatened multiple times to initiate force against their neighbors by blockading Hormuz, which is a total joke, but a threat none the less. Shutting down the straight would be preventing commerce to a bunch of nations that you have clearly illustrated in your picture.
The link I posted last was to an article that pointed out that Iran has been threatening genocide and nuclear holocaust on their official government websites. Their government officials have been giving speeches about this and their government news services promote racism and anti-Jewish propaganda to everyone, even including children's shows, for a long time.
Threatening initiation of force is a violation of the NAP. Destroying their weapons and weapons research facilities is reciprocation of force or threats of force and is perfectly justified.
On the good side, these actions seem to be the last thrashings of a dying dinosaur before it goes extinct. Stable societies and governments don't do this sort of thing. So hopefully we will see the end of the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei's dictatorial rule and puppet fascist President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad shortly.
I just hope no-one gets bit by the creature before it dies.
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nO - Not destruction just quit trying to be the bully.
You can't frame Israel into being the bully if its the other countries that keep provoking the attacks.
Examples would be
1948
1967
1973
and Operation Cast Lead
there you go..
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Iran IS threatening the US, but that's for another thread. And they have threatened multiple times to initiate force against their neighbors by blockading Hormuz, which is a total joke, but a threat none the less. Shutting down the straight would be preventing commerce to a bunch of nations that you have clearly illustrated in your picture.
The link I posted last was to an article that pointed out that Iran has been threatening genocide and nuclear holocaust on their official government websites. Their government officials have been giving speeches about this and their government news services promote racism and anti-Jewish propaganda to everyone, even including children's shows, for a long time.
Threatening initiation of force is a violation of the NAP. Destroying their weapons and weapons research facilities is reciprocation of force or threats of force and is perfectly justified.
You're just escalating force - when you're threatened (each side) day in day out, of course this happens. It takes courage to change the dialogue.
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Iran IS threatening the US, but that's for another thread. And they have threatened multiple times to initiate force against their neighbors by blockading Hormuz, which is a total joke, but a threat none the less. Shutting down the straight would be preventing commerce to a bunch of nations that you have clearly illustrated in your picture.
The link I posted last was to an article that pointed out that Iran has been threatening genocide and nuclear holocaust on their official government websites. Their government officials have been giving speeches about this and their government news services promote racism and anti-Jewish propaganda to everyone, even including children's shows, for a long time.
Threatening initiation of force is a violation of the NAP. Destroying their weapons and weapons research facilities is reciprocation of force or threats of force and is perfectly justified.
You're just escalating force - when you're threatened (each side) day in day out, of course this happens. It takes courage to change the dialogue.
I assume you don't keep a gun in your home...
This pacifist argument just doesn't work for me. At all.
-
Iran IS threatening the US, but that's for another thread. And they have threatened multiple times to initiate force against their neighbors by blockading Hormuz, which is a total joke, but a threat none the less. Shutting down the straight would be preventing commerce to a bunch of nations that you have clearly illustrated in your picture.
The link I posted last was to an article that pointed out that Iran has been threatening genocide and nuclear holocaust on their official government websites. Their government officials have been giving speeches about this and their government news services promote racism and anti-Jewish propaganda to everyone, even including children's shows, for a long time.
Threatening initiation of force is a violation of the NAP. Destroying their weapons and weapons research facilities is reciprocation of force or threats of force and is perfectly justified.
You're just escalating force - when you're threatened (each side) day in day out, of course this happens. It takes courage to change the dialogue.
I assume you don't keep a gun in your home...
This pacifist argument just doesn't work for me. At all.
You assume wrong - try breaking in here.
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I'm no fan of US aid to Israel, but I do take Israel's side of the argument. If things were the way they should be, concerning funding to other countries, I'd probably donate a few bucks to Israel myself. Same goes for every other country on the planet. If Iran is making serious legitimate threats towards Israel, they should do everything they can to stop it.
As far as Iran threatening the US with a nuclear strike........ pffft, whatever. They might be nuts, but they're not suicidal. They know they would cease to exist if they made the move. Thats why they never will.
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War - Part Four: The Deadly Game of Nations (6 of 6) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBW-VroTM9g#)
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I'm no fan of US aid to Israel, but I do take Israel's side of the argument. If things were the way they should be, concerning funding to other countries, I'd probably donate a few bucks to Israel myself. Same goes for every other country on the planet. If Iran is making serious legitimate threats towards Israel, they should do everything they can to stop it.
As far as Iran threatening the US with a nuclear strike........ pffft, whatever. They might be nuts, but they're not suicidal. They know they would cease to exist if they made the move. Thats why they never will.
This is a fair assessment. I actually agree with it. The US should cease foreign aid to all countries. Right now the US government actually gives way more money to Islamo-fascist countries than to Israel, and that is just fucked up. Back when Israel was formed, it was funded primarily by American Jewish donors, who gave their money voluntarily in order to help see a free, healthy economy blossom in the Middle East. Israeli-American organizations still do a lot to help improve the geo-political region known as Israel. Foreign aid isn't necessary, but in my opinion, if we are to eliminate foreign aid to Israel it needs to be done proportionally to foreign aid with all other countries. Ideally it should just be zero.
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I'm no fan of US aid to Israel, but I do take Israel's side of the argument.
I don't because the Jewish-racist states side of the argument is based on the false premise that the land belongs to Jews
If Islamo-fascists were forced to leave that area, they should be allowed to return.
Ok, fine.
Give your house back to the indians. I mean, if we're gonna undo all the mistakes of the past, right?
(http://api.ning.com/files/O4wei8fFB7j291VJtXkIj5TME4ZyFztRemG9MooZkkfOc4eiplvmRPCwJ-FSZaSFDaxCeErl1KduXjRICI6zJFU52OVl3XRk/ChiefIronEyesCodyCrying.gif)
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So muslims cant live in Israel, at all?
I'll admit, my knowledge on that particular subject is super limited.
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So muslims cant live in Israel, at all?
I'll admit, my knowledge on that particular subject is super limited.
Muslims have full citizenship in Israel, there are several Muslim members of the Knesset (their parliament).
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So my Muslim/american-indian comparison holds water?
I mean, if muslims are allowed to live in Israel, and american-indians are allowed to live in the US, whats the difference? What needs to change as far as Israel goes, concerning muslims?
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What needs to change as far as Israel goes, concerning muslims?
Not muslims, Palestinian Arabs. The ones that have been forced to leave should be allowed to return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return)
In June 1948, the Israeli government stated its position, which was reiterated in a letter to the United Nations on 2 August 1949, that in its view a solution to the Palestinian refugee problem must be sought, not through the return of the refugees to Israel, but through the resettlement of the Palestinian Arab refugee population in other states.[16]
None were forced to leave. The ones who stayed became Israelis, their descendants own businesses and vote and hold Israeli passports just like Israeli Jews, Atheists, and Christians, the ones who left to aid the Islamo-fascist military invasions in 48 were refused re-entry.
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the country's population.
...
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have municipal voting rights.
...
Arabs that held Israeli citizenship were entitled to vote for the Israeli Knesset. Arabic Knesset members have served in office since the First Knesset. The first Arab Knesset members were Amin-Salim Jarjora and Seif el-Din el-Zoubi who were members of the Democratic List of Nazareth party and Tawfik Toubi member of the Maki party.[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel)
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I never have anything to say about Jews, as they're just one more in a pile of religions to me, but here's a funny story -
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/09/new-york-rabbi-cure-gays-with-chemicals/ (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/09/new-york-rabbi-cure-gays-with-chemicals/)
A controversial New York rabbi has reacted to an article by Chaim Levin detailing his experience of reparative therapy by saying that homosexuality could be tackled with chemical castration.
Rabbi Yehuda Levin, who is not related to Chaim Levin, was reacting to the latter’s experience of reparative therapy for same sex attractions, which was republished on PinkNews.co.uk last week.
The New York rabbi wrote to the Jewish Press: “Chaim Levin’s recent article and appearances on video and Jewish radio provide ample evidence of an agenda far more wide-ranging than merely opposing bullying and reparative therapy.
“It’s an exact duplication of the militant homosexual activist playbook: Desensitize society through constant discussion of homosexuality, urges, etc. Create feelings of guilt in others by exaggerated, unsubstantiated claims of Jewish homosexual suicides due to “bullying,” discrimination, etc. Gain public sympathy by using the media, and then solidify gains by forming organizations like Jewish Queer Youth.”
He said Jewish philosophers had described Amalek, enemies of the Jews, as “practitioners of homosexuality”.
He wrote: “Rambam rules that one who is tempted to sin disguise himself, sin secretly and act the hypocrite in public so as not to desensitize society to sin. Urging youth to join in a group that identifies itself with Amalek-type behavior reinforces negative self-identification and more often than not results in sinful misbehavior.”
The rabbi questions whether a group could be formed in an Orthodox synagogue of adulterers or the incestuous.
He says such groups would be “spiritual oxymorons and would constitute a fifth column in the Torah community”.
Rabbi Levin concludes: “I have tremendous sympathy for those challenged by temptations and unkosher desires. As you do with cancer, you never stop trying to find a better treatment to cure yourself. If all therapies fail, as a last resort you use chemicals to stop the urge to act in a forbidden manner. (This resolution is ordered by European courts for offenders and it works.) Unpleasant, surely; but better than committing adultery, homosexuality or incest.”
Chaim Levin told PinkNews.co.uk today: “Many people have told me we should ignore people like Rabbi Levin, but this time he shot at me personally by responding to my article. This time I said I’m sick and tired of these people. The public may not be listening to Rabbi Levin, but they are hearing him.
“It’s enough for one gay teen to hear what he says and consider committing suicide. I find it deplorable that people would call him a rabbi. He’s a bigot, he’s extremely dangerous, hurtful and reckless and it’s about time the public started telling him this is not OK.”
Rabbi Levin is well-known for his anti-gay views; his blog describes Mitt Romney as a “dangerous homosexualist”.
Rabbi Ariel Friedlander, co-convenor of the Jewish LGBT forum Keshet UK, told PinkNews.co.uk: “The Torah tells us that every human being is made in the image of God. Homosexuality is not a disease, it is how God made me. There are Jewish communities, rabbis and groups who behave in the image of God in that they love and respect every human being. This is not a disease or any kind of illness, this is part of human nature.”
Rabbi Levin’s attack comes during ongoing debate about so-called ‘gay cures’. The chief rabbi of Amsterdam’s Orthodox Jewish community was recently reinstated after accepting he should not have signed a ‘gay cure’ declaration with his official title. A north London Jewish School, JFS, was criticised for showing students a slide about ‘gay cure’ organisation Jonah in a lesson about homosexuality. In response, ex-students, including PinkNews.co.uk founder and Channel 4 News correspondent Benjamin Cohen recorded ‘It Gets Better’ videos about being Jewish and LGBT.
In her column in the Daily Express last week, Ann Widdecombe questioned the lack of availability of therapy for “gays who do not want to be gay”.
Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, said ‘gay cure’ attempts do not “produce harm despite the Royal College of Psychiatrists and others maintaining the contrary”.
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What do you think Israel should do about it Iran, if anything?
Take care of their nuclear program. They're not doing too bad so far. It's just that moronic "social justice, peace now" idiots condemn them for taking care of business in their own discreet way.
So you are ok with terrorism?
http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/08/10354553-israel-teams-with-terror-group-to-kill-irans-nuclear-scientists-us-officials-tell-nbc-news (http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/08/10354553-israel-teams-with-terror-group-to-kill-irans-nuclear-scientists-us-officials-tell-nbc-news)
Deadly attacks on Iranian nuclear scientists are being carried out by an Iranian dissident group that is financed, trained and armed by Israel’s secret service, U.S. officials tell NBC News, confirming charges leveled by Iran’s leaders.
The group, the People’s Mujahedin of Iran, has long been designated as a terrorist group by the United States, accused of killing American servicemen and contractors in the 1970s and supporting the takeover of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran before breaking with the Iranian mullahs in 1980.
The attacks, which have killed five Iranian nuclear scientists since 2007 and may have destroyed a missile research and development site, have been carried out in dramatic fashion, with motorcycle-borne assailants often attaching small magnetic bombs to the exterior of the victims’ cars.
U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the Obama administration is aware of the assassination campaign but has no direct involvement.
The Iranians have no doubt who is responsible – Israel and the People’s Mujahedin of Iran, known by various acronyms, including MEK, MKO and PMI.
I have no problem with taking out Iranian nuclear programs and those involved in them using any means necessary. But I will say that I wouldn't complain if the Iranians caught terrorists and gave them the death penalty.
The enemy of my enemy may not be my friend, but he is my enemy's enemy.
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Its the threatening that bothers me.
I agree - you threaten me and my family and I take action!
But, when its not face to face, it loses its moxy.
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I know all countries are established by kicking out the aborigines but, have you ever seen "
Jaffa, The Oranges Clockwork"?
I don't like violence - especially STATE violence. Its worse man.
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President Obama, if you're not going to stop Iran, let Israel do the job! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zBJWXESSpU#ws)
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Sam, if you buy in to this shit - you're deluded man.
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Sam, if you buy in to this shit - you're deluded man.
Just look at the Iranian totalitarian state. And then talk to me about delusional. Talk to anyone who has actually lived in Iran under the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khomeini, but now lives here. Then talk to me. Those guys are batshit insane.
Also, have you been to Jaffa? I have. I know what it's like. What do you think it's like?
Do you think the PA or Iran would have allowed a film like the one you mentioned that was critical of the Iranian government, or of the Palestinian Authority to have been published in their respective countries, or do you think that in those places that the government may have beheaded or stoned those filmmakers to death?
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I don't like violence - especially STATE violence. Its worse man.
So do you think the US should use force against Israel if they feel they need to take some sort of action against Iran?
Thats all im wondering.
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New topic: http://hosted-p0.vresp.com/1036265/54a65e1821/ARCHIVE (http://hosted-p0.vresp.com/1036265/54a65e1821/ARCHIVE)
This is an amazing article for us anti-government people to get behind. If you're an atheist I think you will still greatly appreciate it, but just ignore the Jewish stuff, this article is targeted to a Jewish audience.
The key point is that these folks used voluntarist means to fight child slavery and provide an education to the unwashed masses without the use of government. I'm sure you'll appreciate it.
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Its the threatening that bothers me.
I agree - you threaten me and my family and I take action!
But, when its not face to face, it loses its moxy.
\
I know all countries are established by kicking out the aborigines but, have you ever seen "
Jaffa, The Oranges Clockwork"?
I don't like violence - especially STATE violence. Its worse man.
Never saw Jaffa, The Oranges Clockwork, I'll admit.
Iran is beyond threats at this point. They have already been involved in, or implicated in actionable things. I'm talking the bombing of a Jewish cultural center in Buenos Aries, weapons, and training given to Hezbollah, and stuff like that. That isn't a threat. Its real, actual instances of violence performed.
You're only ok if Israel defends in the face of violence, and resigns itself to ignoring a buildup of arms? That's stupid. Why should they have to tie their hands behind their backs while enemies are preparing for another war? Hezbollah now has MORE weaponry than they did before the last war. All from Iran. Israel should have to wait until the missiles rain down on Tel Aviv before counterattacking even though Hezbollah has already made its intention of attacking Israel clear? Fuck that shit.
Its not like this was unprecedented either. In 1967, Israel anticipated an Arab attack, and decimated the air forces of the Arab nations to win the war. If they had not proactively responded to the Arab hostilities, there would be no Israel. Today, it isn't too different. Iran at least partly funds Hamas, they own Hezbollah, and they have a huge presence in Syria. They could wage a 3 front war with Israel, and use standard military, and asymmetrical forces at the same time. What if they also used a nuke? I'll admit I am not sure if they would but they signed the paperwork saying they wouldn't.
You don't think that the history of unprovoked attacks on Israel isn't already an indication of willingness on Irans part to strike again?
Whats this about kicking out the aborigines? Were Arabs, a nomadic people the owners of Israel?
I think its your white guilt showing. The Jews are the owners of the land. We had it before Islam existed, and all the archeological proofs attest to that. The fact that they built their mosque on top of our Temple, and covered the Cave of the Patriarchs with a building is further proof. We were there first. The Romans kicked us out, and we reclaimed our property in 1948. I can't begin to understand at what point there would be disagreement about this...any of this.
Don't you agree that Jews owned the land when the Romans kicked many of us out?
Don't you agree that property rights exist?
Don't you agree that we can't be the foreigners of our own land?
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I dont think any country is "legitimate". Its just some dudes words on a piece of paper.
Its only legitimate to the degree you are willing to back it up.
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I'm tired of this argument. Neither side is looking very respectable in my opinion.
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I'm tired of this argument. Neither side is looking very respectable in my opinion.
You upset I called you out?
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You didn't call me out. I'm not involved on either side. I just want to see things get worked out without killing the general populations of Israel and Iran.
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You didn't call me out. I'm not involved on either side. I just want to see things get worked out without killing the general populations of Israel and Iran.
What would you consider legitimate self-defense by Israel?
Seriously, what should they do? If you think their actions are wrong, or misdirected, whats a better course of action?
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:lol: Jews.
P.S.
http://voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/wipeisraeloff.html (http://voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/wipeisraeloff.html)
ISRAEL IS NOT A LEGITIMATE STATE
Blah blah blah
This guy doesn't think any state is legitimate. Big woop.
Blackie, are you posting this as flamebait or something? You can think for yourself enough to articulate your own arguments, you know.
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Jews are good people. Mark Edge said he is from a jewish family. Issue solved.
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Its not about jews per se or arabs per se.
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Nope. I am adopted. My family was WASPs. I took some genetics test that said I have 'markers' for Ashkenazi. That does go to prove that one never knows what kind of mutt one is.
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I myself, am a full blooded 'merican.
No dirty fore'ner blood in me at all. Argue all you want.
*covers ears and goes" BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH"*
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Seven types of white.
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I have normal skin.
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Klavan's One-State Solution: Give the Middle East to the Jews (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIEeiDjdUuU#ws)
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Klavan's One-State Solution: Give the Middle East to the Jews (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIEeiDjdUuU#ws)
I loved this.
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Doug Stanhope - Fuck the Jews (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAVyiJ1SINE#ws)
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OMG...my 6yo son told his karate class he is jewish. WTF?
I had to have my wife do damage control. I need to hide the menorah and the matzos.