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avshae

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2010, 07:32:01 AM »

Should be called what it is evidence of authorization for political assassination.   Sooner or later Israel is going to go to far and sanctions will be imposed on it.

Why change? Any title including the words "war crime" has much more populist appeal. If you're going to change it make sure it includes key anti-Israel buzzwords such as "apartheid", "genocide", etc.

How about "The Genocidal policies of Apartheid Israel exposed again - conclusive proof of War Crimes committed on helpless orphan cripple babies after they were starved half to death by the Evil Zionist government".

See? Spice it up. Myth is much more interesting than fact.

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libertylover

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2010, 07:43:47 PM »

Should be called what it is evidence of authorization for political assassination.   Sooner or later Israel is going to go to far and sanctions will be imposed on it.

Why change? Any title including the words "war crime" has much more populist appeal. If you're going to change it make sure it includes key anti-Israel buzzwords such as "apartheid", "genocide", etc.

You are right documented evidence of authorization for political assassination is a war crime.  The title of the news article is correct.  Israel isn't the only country or the first to engage in such activity.  They just got caught.  And if the political leaders of a country are engaged in war crimes that becomes a reflection on the country as a whole.   Does not mean all Israelis condone the actions of their government.  There is overwhelming evidence of the other crimes against humanity for which Israel is guilty.  There have been numerous UN resolutions against Israel.
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avshae

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 07:59:04 AM »


Israel does NOT perform political assassinations. Israel has carried out targeted killings of terrorists - ie people who have directly targeted or closely orchestrated the direct targeting of civilians. Not just any Hamas official was picked as a target - only those who had blood on their hands.

The Israeli supreme court has ruled that targeted killings may only be carried out in cases where lawful arrest of the terrorist is not possible. Anat Kam allegedly uncovered documents that demonstrate the IDF ignored the supreme court ruling on at least one case.

But that is a far cry from political assassination.

Personally I am proud that in Israel we have courts that keep the authorities in check, and freedom that enables people like Anat Kam to do what she did. Although by stealing confidential documents she has herself broken the law, nevertheless if what she allegates is true then it is a big win for democracy the way things played out, even though the process was a bit cranky.

I think that in any other western country the government would also try their best to put a lid on it, the question is what other power in the state counters that effort.

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Bill Brasky

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2010, 12:36:30 PM »


Israel does NOT perform political assassinations. Israel has carried out targeted killings of terrorists - ie people who have directly targeted or closely orchestrated the direct targeting of civilians. Not just any Hamas official was picked as a target - only those who had blood on their hands.

The Israeli supreme court has ruled that targeted killings may only be carried out in cases where lawful arrest of the terrorist is not possible. Anat Kam allegedly uncovered documents that demonstrate the IDF ignored the supreme court ruling on at least one case.

But that is a far cry from political assassination.

Personally I am proud that in Israel we have courts that keep the authorities in check, and freedom that enables people like Anat Kam to do what she did. Although by stealing confidential documents she has herself broken the law, nevertheless if what she allegates is true then it is a big win for democracy the way things played out, even though the process was a bit cranky.

I think that in any other western country the government would also try their best to put a lid on it, the question is what other power in the state counters that effort.



Well then, what would it take for Israeli officials, like high-ranking generals in the active military, to be arrested by Hamas on an official level, and stand trial in a military tribunal?

If thats off the table for consideration, they are therefore legitimate targets for termination. 
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avshae

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2010, 05:21:34 PM »


I knew that would come up.

First of all, it's not as if Hamas ponder on the question of legitimacy to target any Israeli, IDF officer or not. They would just do it whenever they thought they could get away with it. Of course now they're just reconsidering their strategy after getting their ass whooped in Cast Lead.

They would love to target officers, just that it was too difficult so they mostly stuck to firing inaccurate rockets at towns hoping to "get lucky" and hit a nursery or something like that.

I also notice that you are for some reason trying to equate IDF soldiers with Hamas terrorists. Let me just say that if IDF officers are ever caught orchestrating suicide bombings on Gaza buses, then the Israeli judicial system will most likely try them in Israel.

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Bill Brasky

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2010, 05:52:31 PM »


I knew that would come up.

First of all, it's not as if Hamas ponder on the question of legitimacy to target any Israeli, IDF officer or not. They would just do it whenever they thought they could get away with it. Of course now they're just reconsidering their strategy after getting their ass whooped in Cast Lead.

They would love to target officers, just that it was too difficult so they mostly stuck to firing inaccurate rockets at towns hoping to "get lucky" and hit a nursery or something like that.

I also notice that you are for some reason trying to equate IDF soldiers with Hamas terrorists. Let me just say that if IDF officers are ever caught orchestrating suicide bombings on Gaza buses, then the Israeli judicial system will most likely try them in Israel.



Hamas is considered a legitimate government, and Palestinians died in droves in what they consider an attack on civilians. 

I'm not flaming you or being hostile in any way.  But you can't tell me that the flip-side of the coin is even up for discussion.  These so-called ''criminals" by your definition, high ranking Israeli military leaders who directly ordered the attacks, do indeed have civilian blood on their hands.  And the Israeli government would laugh themselves sick if a formal request was issued by Hamas to have a military tribunal for those actions, on Palestinian soil. 

Even if they wanted to sign treaties and what-not, and have trials in Switzerland, it would be flatly refused. 

So you can't tell me these are anything more than thinly disguised excuses for being caught doing "wet work". 



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avshae

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 09:15:03 PM »

Hamas is considered a legitimate government,
No they're not. They're not even recognized by the Palestinian authority, let alone any western state. They are considered by most countries to be a terrorist organization.

and Palestinians died in droves in what they consider an attack on civilians.
I don't recall whether you participated in previous threads (maybe you changed your nick), but if they think it was an attack on civilians that doesn't mean it was so - Palestinians actually blame everything on their surroundings, never looking inward for the solution, their nearest surroundings being Israel.

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I'm not flaming you or being hostile in any way.  But you can't tell me that the flip-side of the coin is even up for discussion.  These so-called ''criminals" by your definition, high ranking Israeli military leaders who directly ordered the attacks, do indeed have civilian blood on their hands.
It is NOT the flip side of the coin - you are missing the point. There are key distinctions between lawful warfare and terrorism. You can't try every soldier who ever participated in any war where civilians were killed, otherwise every soldier that ever participated in any conflict since WWII would have to be tried. If an Israeli officer, say, ordered to fire artillery into a civilian neighborhood just for fun to see if he could hit a nursery - that is a war crime. These are the type of actions that Hamas did. But if Israeli cities or IDF were fired upon from point X, and an Israeli officer ordered retaliatory fire into point X, and in point X there are civilians because, surprise surprise, Hamas were using civilians as human shields; then firing at point X, is 100% lawful by any international standards. That is the difference between lawful warfare and terrorism.

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And the Israeli government would laugh themselves sick if a formal request was issued by Hamas to have a military tribunal for those actions, on Palestinian soil. 
You are right, it is funny. For a terrorist organization to hold a military tribunal against the army that defends their victims from the very terrorism that they themselves initiate. Do you seriously think there is anybody in Hamas remotely capable of holding a fair trial, not to mention for Israelis? Those sick fucks run around with AK-47s shooting Gaza civilians for playing "unholy" music in public.

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Even if they wanted to sign treaties and what-not, and have trials in Switzerland, it would be flatly refused.
I'm not sure, in such a case perhaps Israel would agree, on the condition that Hamas war criminals be tried also - you think there are enough judges in Switzerland to try all Hamas members who participated in terrorism?
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Bill Brasky

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 09:42:53 PM »

Hamas is considered a legitimate government,
No they're not. They're not even recognized by the Palestinian authority, let alone any western state. They are considered by most countries to be a terrorist organization.



Hamas (حماس Ḥamās, an acronym of حركة المقاومة الاسلامية  Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement") is a Palestinian Islamic organization with a socio-political wing[5][6]  and a paramilitary force, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.[2][3]  Since June 2007, after winning a large majority in the Palestinian Parliament and defeating rival Palestinian party Fatah in a series of violent clashes, Hamas has governed the Gaza  portion of the Palestinian Territories. The governments of Canada,  the European Union,  Israel, Japan,  and the United States  classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. The United Kingdom  and Australia]  classify only Hamas' independent military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada, an uprising against Israeli rule in the Palestinian Territories. Hamas launched numerous suicide bombings against Israelis, the first of them in April, 1993. Hamas ceased the attacks in 2005 and renounced them in April, 2006. Hamas has also been responsible for rocket attacks since 2001, improvised explosive device attacks, and shootings, but it reduced those operations in 2005 and 2006.

In January 2006, Hamas was successful in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43. After Hamas's election victory, violent and non-violent conflicts arose between Hamas and Fatah.


-----------------------------------------


Nuances I'd rather not debate.  They are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization.  Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.  

Regardless, they declare themselves as a legitimate government, are elected, and hold majority.  Which is the quantifying definition of any government, elected or not - they rule a recognized territory.  

I personally believe Israel is a puppet government of the United States established for the sole purpose of having a grasp on the region.  Or, at least, it was.  Its now an ally that should stop accepting foreign aid, exist on its own until its inevitable destruction.  

My only purpose to comment at all was to make the statement that Israel conducts *(or has conducted) political assassinations, and denying it is idiotic.  The Mossad is among the most elite espionage agencies in the world, and assassination is a tool any government will use.  
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Riddler

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 11:23:07 PM »

well, fuck me silly, if blackies ' dead-thread' done sprung another life.....
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avshae

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 04:52:45 AM »

[Hamas] are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization.  Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.
As opposed to the "numerous" (the actual number being 2) western countries who define only the military wing of Hamas as terrorist, how many western countries define the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or if you'd rather not debate these "nuances" then stop trying to equate IDF to Hamas.

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Regardless, they declare themselves as a legitimate government, are elected, and hold majority.  Which is the quantifying definition of any government, elected or not - they rule a recognized territory.
They are a cutthroat band of thugs that won majority in the PA parliament in January 2006, presumably after Palestinians got fed up with Fatah officials corruption and voted for Hamas as a non-confidence vote against Fatah. After winning the elections back then, they proceeded to crush by force all remaining opposition, taking control of all remaining parliament seats, government, presidency and judicial system, at gunpoint. All opposition were either killed, silenced (kneecapping was popular), or fled to Judea-Samaria. And no, the Gaza strip is not recognized as an independent territory separate from Judea-Samaria. According to the PA charter, elections are to be held every four years, so they should have been held in January 2010. However, surprise surprise, Hamas postponed them indefinitely. (I believe they annulled the PA charter). Suppose the republicans, after winning elections in some year in the US, killed off all opposing congress members, replaced the supreme court with judges answering to dictator Bush (or whomever), and annulled the declaration of independence.

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My only purpose to comment at all was to make the statement that Israel conducts *(or has conducted) political assassinations
Political assassination is when you assassinate an appointed state official, such as a cabinet member. That's when you get to put the word "political" in front. Israel has never done that (Palestinians on the other hand, have). I do not deny Israel has targeted individual terrorists, as that is front page news. But that is not political assassination.

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Bill Brasky

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2010, 09:16:04 PM »

[Hamas] are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization.  Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.
As opposed to the "numerous" (the actual number being 2) western countries who define only the military wing of Hamas as terrorist, how many western countries define the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or if you'd rather not debate these "nuances" then stop trying to equate IDF to Hamas.



Nobody in the West defines the IDF as a terrorist organization, because the Israelis would be offended and would pull the Jew card.  A big shitstorm would ensue.  But there are many countries in the Middle East that hold that particular view, because they are not allies of the Israeli government.  

This is called "diplomacy", and is practiced by "diplomats".  I am not a diplomat, and have never been accused of diplomacy.  I call it like I see it, and as I see it, there is very little difference between the two sides of the border.  

Your problem is that you have a vested interest in one side.  Its your "team", and you make many excuses for abhorrent behavior on their behalf, when looked at from a neutral perspective, it makes you a hypocrite.  This is reflected not only in you, but on a political level, most major governments.  

Not surprisingly, this is the same mentality that is common among outlaw motorcycle gangs who clash over turf.  It has been said many times that there is no right and wrong in the purview of Hells Angels as it relates to society, they only concern themselves with "right" (meaning correctness) as it pertains to them.  They define "right" internally, and dispense justice when their lines have been crossed.  They don't use diplomacy to gain respect, they demand respect and use violence to maintain it.  

As this translates to governments, devout membership or citizenship is not different.  The zeal and zealotry is an exaggerated response of the edicts handed down from On-High, the party line.  WE have concluded that THEY are in the wrong, and WE will retaliate or enforce our will upon THEM.  The devout members, whipped into a frenzy of righteousness, wholeheartedly agree - regardless of rationality.  The offense of the incident is practically meaningless.  It is, by and large, a reason to retaliate against a foe.  It could even be preemptively, or the retaliation could be many times larger than the incident that spawned the action - which is nothing more than a signal of superiority and an assurance of future, similar responses.  

It is not the MAD scenario, but the inordinate response of multiplicity.  For every one of ours you kill, we will kill ten of yours.  And then they actually carry it out, to the letter - and the denizens of the superior force cheer the might of their protectionists, secure in their confidence that this threat of multiplicity is fearsome enough to preserve their sanctity of life.  What they never really contemplate is this threat has to be perceived as a wholesale calculation of life among both sides by governing representatives who will never be included in the calculation.  

And what all this boils down to is the threat of violence, acts performed and promise of future acts to maintain the status quo, since respect is not given freely by mutual accord.  This is by definition, terror, and is a tactic of terrorist organizations - the use of random violence against civilians when diplomacy fails.  And while I'm sure the IDF would be more than happy to oblige an all-out conventional war, the Hamas military forces do not have the capacity to wage a legitimate counterstrike with conventional weaponry.  This limits their options to random acts, but by no means justifies the retaliatory measures deemed appropriate by the IDF - which do fall under the definition of terror strikes whether you like it or not.  The only difference is, the IDF proudly announces they were operating from a legitimate, standing army with uniformed participants and proudly stenciled equipment.  

Trying to legitimize the act with officially owned equipment makes no difference to the ultimate outcome.  Its still an act of terror.  And by that measure, the IDF terrorists, and the supporters are sponsors.  

The State of Israel has many, many times dropped the ball on legitimate acts of retaliatory war against legitimate armies of their neighboring countries, more times than they have been successful in the masquerade of "defending their homeland".  They have had countless opportunities to strike and occupy a foreign nation, which is the ultimate purpose of war - to conquer and absorb your foe to ensure no future harm would come from their defeated army.  The fail to do that, because they know the ultimate outcome would be the mobilization of all surrounding armies and they would be wiped off the face of the earth.  

So they sit in their little hole and wave their Israeli flag, like an island of temporary privileged Ivy League grad students, milking Uncle Sam's generous trust fund to fuel their ongoing circus, and expecting him to fork over the horsepower if shit gets too thick.  This is the implication that rankles me the most, even more-so than the charity our country extends to fund their crazy little experiment - that the United States will bomb the shit out of anyone who makes the mistake of pushing the limits of mutually-exchanged terror acts as revenge for their policy of multiplicity.    

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libertylover

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2010, 03:57:20 AM »

[Hamas] are elected by Palestinians and numerous reputable Western countries make the distinction of their military wing being the actual terrorist organization.  Ironically similar to the IDF, I'd say.
As opposed to the "numerous" (the actual number being 2) western countries who define only the military wing of Hamas as terrorist, how many western countries define the IDF as a terrorist organization? Or if you'd rather not debate these "nuances" then stop trying to equate IDF to Hamas.

Nobody in the West defines the IDF as a terrorist organization, because the Israelis would be offended and would pull the Jew card.  A big shitstorm would ensue.  But there are many countries in the Middle East that hold that particular view, because they are not allies of the Israeli government.  

(and the rest ...... edited out in the interest of saving space.)

Very well said, couldn't possibly add to your commentary it explains the position of wanting an end to aggression in the best manner possible. 
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avshae

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 04:47:49 PM »

Nobody in the West defines the IDF as a terrorist organization, because the Israelis would be offended and would pull the Jew card.  A big shitstorm would ensue.  But there are many countries in the Middle East that hold that particular view, because they are not allies of the Israeli government.
Nobody in the west defines the IDF as terrorists, since IDF do exactly what any western army would do faced with the same situation. What if some lunatic cult in Mexico armed themselves to the teeth and started shooting missiles at your town, with the unmistakable purpose of killing as many non-combatants as possible, and all while using civilians as human shields. Maybe they believe America should be all theirs, who cares why. Would you not be demanding the US army to take action - even at the risk of those innocent civilians if there is no other option? Sure, you have no quarrel with Mexican civlians, only with the lunatics. But don't tell me you value Mexican children's lives the same as you value your childrens lives. If forced to make a cruel choice you'd choose your children in a split second, all philosophy  aside.

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I call it like I see it, and as I see it, there is very little difference between the two sides of the border.
You say that because you do not seem to know much about the conflict. Sure, side A kills side B and vice versa, whats the difference?
But there are key differences. Which side has called for peace since the beginning, and which side refuses to recognize the other and relentlessly calls for its destruction? Written declarations and action may not be the same, you could say, but Hamas don't even pretend to want any solution (other than their illusions of destroying Israel). The Palestinians had every opportunity to make a clean peaceful break - Israel even unilateraly withdrew from Gaza in 2005. While Hamas blatently targeted Israeli civilians, IDF did more to protect Gaza civlians when engaging Hamas military, than Hamas ever did.

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Its your "team", and you make many excuses for abhorrent behavior on their behalf, when looked at from a neutral perspective
No I do not. If and when an Israeli (civilian or miltary) condones terrorism I am the first to object. But in Israel these are the eccentrics, not the mainstream.

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The offense of the incident is practically meaningless.  It is, by and large, a reason to retaliate against a foe.
What are you talking about?! The Palestinians were given every chance for a fair agreement. Instead they voted for Hamas. If you look at the Hamas charter as I linked to above, you see that resolve of the conflict can only be made over Hamas' dead body - literally.
Now when Hamas rain down rockets on an Israel town like Sderot for eight fucking years, killing and injuring hundreds, disrupting the lives tens of thousands, not to mention totally fucking up the economy and social life, that to me seems quite a rational reason to retaliate against Hamas.
Sure Israel would rather live in peace with its neighbors, but there is no partner, at least in Gaza.

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And what all this boils down to is the threat of violence, acts performed and promise of future acts to maintain the status quo, since respect is not given freely by mutual accord.  This is by definition, terror, and is a tactic of terrorist organizations - the use of random violence against civilians when diplomacy fails.
IDF did not engage in "random violence" against civilians. IDF engaged in pinpoint directed and carefully planned attacks against Hamas armed personnel, combat and command facilites.

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And while I'm sure the IDF would be more than happy to oblige an all-out conventional war, the Hamas military forces do not have the capacity to wage a legitimate counterstrike with conventional weaponry.This limits their options to random acts,
... of violence against non-combatants you mean. Awwh come on, there are plenty of ways to fight geurilla warfare without targeting civilians. The Partisans did it, the IRA also mostly avoided targeting civlians. Hamas are just murderous cowards, attacking Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own.

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The only difference is, the IDF proudly announces they were operating from a legitimate, standing army with uniformed participants and proudly stenciled equipment.
As you've mentioned uniform, uniform is not just for show. Uniform is what distinguishes you from a civilian. How can you lawfully target enemy combatants if you can't distinguish them from civilians? Hamas militants done civilian clothes, bear arms and attack IDF forces, and when IDF kills a Hamas militant in civilian clothes the Palestinians quickly hide his rifle and claim it was "random violence against civilians". It doesn't matter how shiny your gear is, what matters is how you use it and who you point it at

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The State of Israel has many, many times dropped the ball on legitimate acts of retaliatory war against legitimate armies of their neighboring countries, more times than they have been successful in the masquerade of "defending their homeland".  They have had countless opportunities to strike and occupy a foreign nation, which is the ultimate purpose of war - to conquer and absorb your foe to ensure no future harm would come from their defeated army.  The fail to do that, because they know the ultimate outcome would be the mobilization of all surrounding armies and they would be wiped off the face of the earth.
So now you are critisizing Israel for NOT seizing more territory? Thats a new one. Could it just be that Israel govs have never had any aspiration to control neighboring states? Could it be that we just want to live in peace?

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So they sit in their little hole and wave their Israeli flag, like an island of temporary privileged Ivy League grad students, milking Uncle Sam's generous trust fund to fuel their ongoing circus, and expecting him to fork over the horsepower if shit gets too thick.  This is the implication that rankles me the most, even more-so than the charity our country extends to fund their crazy little experiment - that the United States will bomb the shit out of anyone who makes the mistake of pushing the limits of mutually-exchanged terror acts as revenge for their policy of multiplicity.
Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US. Israel has passed its toughest tests of survival in the first 20 years of its existence, without any US help. Still thank you ever so kindly for the 2.5% percent of Israel's budget received as aid from the US, starting in the late sixties after Israel had become a regional force to reckon with. You see, this is not charity but an alliance of mutual interest.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 04:51:29 PM by avshae »
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blackie

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2010, 06:26:11 PM »

As you've mentioned uniform, uniform is not just for show.
When I was in the army, the uniform was for camouflage.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: It's time for another Jew thread
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2010, 08:00:18 PM »

Contrary to myths common in this forum, Israel has absolutely no problem existing and thriving without the US.


Yeah, right. 
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