The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: blackie on May 28, 2009, 11:15:09 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhar
Yitzhar (Hebrew: יִצְהָר) is an Israeli settlement located in the Samarian mountains of the West Bank near Nablus/Shechem just off Route 60 north of the Tapuach Junction. The Hebrew term 'Yitzhar' is a biblical term, meaning high quality olive oil, and derives from one of the region's major industries. The village was originally established as a pioneer Nahal military outpost and demilitarized only a year later when turned over to residential purposes in 1984 with the assistance of the Amana settlement organization.
Over 130 families, including over 500 people, live in this Orthodox Jewish community which is within the municipal jurisdiction of the Shomron Regional Council. Yitzhar is located on the top of a steep mountain, and overlooks the farms and hamlets that dot the otherwise barren hills around the village. In addition, from the western side of the settlement, the entire coastal plain of Israel, from Ashkelon to Hadera, is fully visible on a clear day.
Education is a priority of the community and several institutions operate locally: nurseries, the boy's Zilberman Talmud Torah, the Dorshei Yichudcha Yeshiva high school, headed by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, and the Od Yosef Chai "Higher Yeshiva" headed by Rabbi Yitzhak Ginzburg, that was previously located in Joseph's Tomb Nablus.
On Saturday, September 13, 2008, a Palestinian man entered the Shalhevet neighborhood, set a fire which destroyed one home and stabbed a nine-year-old boy who found him attempting to set fire to another home. Dozens of settlers responded by marching through the adjacent Arab village of Asira al-Qibliya where the attacker had fled; allegedly wounding two people and damaging property.
Video of a jew rampage:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020914.html
Yitzhar settlers' West Bank rampage caught on camera
By Haaretz Service
Tags: settlers, Palestinian
Channel 10 aired footage on Sunday that showed West Bank settlers rampaging through a Palestinian village on the previous day.
The footage, obtained from Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, shows Israel Defense Forces soldiers consistently present at the scene of the rampage, during which settlers fired on Palestinian residents, destroyed their property and spray-painted Stars of David on homes.
Advertisement
The settlers were responding Saturday to the stabbing of a 10-year-old Israeli boy by a Palestinian at the illegal outpost of Shalhevet Yam near Yitzhar.
Also Sunday, dozens of youths from the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar on Sunday established an outpost near the Palestinian village that settlers had rampaged in Saturday.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert declared earlier in the day that Israel's government will not allow settlers to carry out "pogroms against non-Jews."
Speaking at the weekly cabinet meeting one day after the rampage in the village of Assira al-Kabaliya, Olmert said "there will not be pogroms against non-Jews in the state of Israel."
The violence in Assira al-Kabaliya left at least eight Palestinians hurt. The boy, stabbed in the back and the hand, sustained minor wounds.
"The phenomenon of [settlers] taking the law into their own hands and lashing out with violence and brutality is unforgivable, and will be dealt with by the law enforcement authorities," Olmert said.
The prime minister went on to describe the previous day's events, saying "in northern Samaria there was a terror attack, and a young boy was hurt. This is serious and momentous and the defense forces will find the culprit and do what needs to be done, as they do every day. However, Yitzhar settlers went on a retaliatory rampage against Palestinian residents, using live fire."
Olmert went on to say that there was no reason to believe that the Palestinians targeted by the settlers had any connection to the stabbing attack earlier in the day.
"There are law enforcement authorities in the state of Israel," Olmert told the cabinet, "we have a military and security services and we won't allow this kind of violence or brutal attacks on civilians. Moreover, the violence is not used against those suspected of terrorism, it is used against Israel Defense Forces officers and soldiers. I urge the authorities to take measures to end this grave phenomenon."
In a meeting of Labor Party ministers earlier Sunday, Defense Minister Ehud Barak sais that "the defense establishment will act with decisiveness to enforce law and order in the West Bank, but we need the cooperation of the police and the legal system."
http://samsonblinded.org/news/jews-of-yitzhar-fire-rocket-at-palestinians-2370
Jews of Yitzhar fire rocket at Palestinians
Orthodox yeshiva students from Yitzhar settlement constructed a simple Kassam-like rocket and test-fired it on the nearby Palestinian village whose villagers bug the Jewish settlers incessantly. The first rocket didn’t make it through and fell on the open ground nearby.
Shin-Bet security service investigates the affair with the zeal it doesn’t routinely show against Palestinian rocket-makers.
20 June 2008 Posted in right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znXufbUbhr4
[youtube=425,350]znXufbUbhr4[/youtube]
Israel crimes against palestenians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nLH3W10QqY
[youtube=425,350]
3nLH3W10QqY[/youtube]
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126569
Homemade Rocket Fired from Jewish Hilltop at Arab Village
by Hillel Fendel
(IsraelNN.com) A yeshiva student in the north-central Samaria town of Yitzhar fired a homemade Kassam-like rocket at a hostile Arab village; no one was hurt. The GSS is investigating.
After the violent events of Thursday morning, in which police and army forces destroyed a caravan and a storage container on hilltops in Yitzhar, using clubs to beat and disperse protestors, the people of Yitzhar found themselves facing another "incident" just a few hours later.
Police reported that a student in the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in Yitzhar fired a home-made Kassam-like rocket towards a nearby Arab village. The rocket landed in an open area - some 50 meters away from a Jewish man engaged in prayer.
Rabbi Yitzik Shapira, Dean of the yeshiva, was questioned by General Security Service agents afterwards. He reportedly told them that the yeshiva has made it clear to the students that the priority is "net Torah study," and that he personally is against any form of anarchy in which citizens take the law into their own hands.
Notably, nine out of ten talkbacks to the NRG-Maariv article in which the story was first published expressed some measure of support for the rocket firing. Many said that it was an understandable reaction in the face of government inaction.
Rabbi David Dudkevitch, the Rabbi of Yitzhar, told Arutz-7, "It is clear that many Israeli citizens feel that the government is not filling its most basic obligation of defending its populace. Instead of fighting terrorism, it fights against its citizens."
"Taking the State Into Our Hands"
Asked his opinion on "taking the law into one's own hands" in situations such as this, Rabbi Dudkevitch said, "The issue is not taking the law into our hands, but rather taking the entire State into our hands. We have to be thinking about how to create a real alternative to the leadership that we have now. Some in the religious-Zionist camp feel that if we were just to have a Foreign Minister who would be religious, or maybe someone from the National Union, then everything would be perfect. This is of course not true; the foundations are rotten, and we have to find the way to replace them."
Asked what would be the first step towards such a goal, the rabbi said, "First there must be a commitment to doing this. We must stop thinking that just little patches are needed here and there; we must realize that there must be a total change. Also, we must not cooperate with a system that endangers its soldiers on behalf of false ethics [by preventing themselves from fully defending themselves], or that sends them on immoral missions such as destroying Jewish houses in the Land of Israel."
The Yeshiva
Yeshivat Od Yosef Chai, or the Joseph's Tomb Yeshiva, was founded over 25 years ago at the site of Joseph's Tomb in Shechem (Nablus), and remained there until 2000, when the Arabs overran and destroyed the site. The yeshiva was later rebuilt in Yitzhar, five kilometers south of Shechem.
The yeshiva released a statement, saying it plans to sue the NRG-Maariv reporter for libel in implying that the yeshiva ideologically supports such actions: "It could be that the reporter wants to spread such ideas and heat up the atmosphere, as the talkbacks show, but if these are his opinions, he should stand behind them himself and not throw mud on others."
A yeshiva official told Arutz-7 that it is making strong efforts to change its focus: "The other day, when there was a [Land of Israel] incident in [the nearby community of] Brachah, the administrator of the yeshiva stood at the gate and said that anyone who goes to Brachah will not be able to return to the yeshiva."
"We know that people come here because they identify with our goal of taking responsibility for the entire nation," the official said, "but we are making it clear that specific actions towards this end may not be taken during yeshiva time. If they want, they can do this during vacation time, or when they get older - but not here."
NRG-Maariv reported that the firing of the rocket was preceded by a phone call to the Yitzhar secretariat office, warning that a loud boom would be heard and should be ignored. Army forces heard the explosion, however, and thought it was caused by terrorists. They arrived quickly on the scene, but once they realized their mistake, investigation of the matter was transferred to the police and GSS.
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It's all so stupid. If I had ONE WISH, it would be for religion to evaporate from people's minds, including that of the state.
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It's all so stupid. If I had ONE WISH, it would be for religion to evaporate from people's minds, including that of the state.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103800
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Homemade Rocket Fired from Jewish Hilltop at Arab Village
Special edition, Man Bites Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog_(journalism)), read all about it.
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Homemade Rocket Fired from Jewish Hilltop at Arab Village
Special edition, Man Bites Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog_(journalism)), read all about it.
Actually, I didn't see much news coverage of that event. Did it get a lot of coverage in Israel?
But while looking into Yitzhar, it almost seems like many of the Israeli settlers in the West Bank are the Jewish version of trailer trash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailer_trash), not that there is anything wrong with that.
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http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&Do=&ID=37921
Date: 19 / 05 / 2009 Time: 14:31
Qalqiliya – Ma’an – Israeli settlers set fire to farmland and assaulted Palestinian farmers and an Israeli activist in two villages east of the West Bank city of Qalqiliya on Tuesday.
Ma’an’s correspondent reports that large areas of wheat fields and olive groves went up in flames in the villages of Jit and Far’ata before firefighters arrived and extinguished the blaze.
Local residents said Israeli soldiers also attacked farmers, leaving many of them bruised among them Hani Arman, Othman As-Sadda, Ahmad Arman, Zakariyya As-Sadda, and an Israeli activist with the organization Rabbis for Human rights.
Soldiers also seized 15-year-old Murad Yamin.
According to farmers, fights erupted after settlers from the Gilad outpost attacked a rally in the area protesting previous settler attacks and Israeli Civil Administration’s claims that farmers do not own their land in spite of documents proving ownership.
http://www.imemc.org/article/60499
Israeli settlers uproot trees in northern West Bank
Thursday May 21, 2009
Israeli settlers backed by the military uprooted on Thursday olive trees belonging to Palestinian farmers in the northern West Bank.
Farmers reported that troops and settlers came to their lands located near Salfit city on Thursday then forced them away and uprooted trees. The army announced the area a closed military zone and told famers they were not allowed back onto their lands.
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5442&Itemid=49
Attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinians and property on rise in West Bank, crops set on fire
22.05.09 - 13:26
Nablus / PNN – Israel settlers infiltrated the southern Nablus town of Burin this morning and set fire to 20 acres planted with a barley crop.
The agricultural land is owned by local farmers who report that Israeli settlers also set fire to homes.
Raja Muhammad, Abu Ammar, said today that the same settlers that came from Itshar Settlement at dawn today to burn crops set fire to his home three days ago leading to its full destruction.
The man said today that civil defense personnel who went to extinguish the blazes saw settlers fleeing the scene toward the nearby settlement of Itshar.
The people of Burin have contacted the Palestinian liaison with the Israeli army in order to file an official complaint in the matter.
Southern Nablus has been a frequent target of Israeli settlers for the past year with numerous reports of marauding settlers storming towns.
Fires, attacks and harassment have become the norm as settlement expansion continues and the Israeli administration says it will not stop, despite the illegality under international law.
http://www.imemc.org/article/60332
Israeli settler children screaming “Death to Arabs” get Israeli military to close Palestinian land
Monday May 11, 2009
A group of Israeli settler youth standing on a hillside near the Palestinian village of Beit Ummar got Israeli soldiers stationed nearby to prevent a group of Palestinian farmers, accompanied by international and Israeli human rights activists, from accessing their farmland.
The farmers, residents of the village of Beit Ummar, near Hebron in the southern West Bank, own farmland near the illegal Israeli settlement of Bet Ayin, which was constructed on illegally-confiscated Palestinian land.
The settlement continues to expand further and further onto Palestinian land, and the Palestinian farmers whose land lies nearby the expanding settlement have experienced increasing harassment over the last several months.
As the children stood on the hillside chanting “Death to all Arabs”, the Israeli soldiers showed the farmers and human rights observers a military order declaring their farmland to be a “closed military zone”, and forced them off their land at gunpoint.
This incident comes on the heels of a violent attack by a gang of masked Israeli settlers against two elderly Palestinian farmers, who were badly beaten on April 26th. One of them, Abdullah Soleiby, age 80, suffered severe head injuries when several Israeli soldiers held him down and hit him on the head with rocks.
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Israeli settlers are terrorists?
Mostly no.
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&Do=&ID=37921
http://www.imemc.org/article/60499
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5442&Itemid=49
http://www.imemc.org/article/60332
Your sources are pure Arab propaganda.
http://www.imemc.org/about_us
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=33
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=Content&Do=Aboutus
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Your sources are pure Arab propaganda.
That doesn't mean the events didn't happen.
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Your sources are pure Arab propaganda.
That doesn't mean the events didn't happen.
It could mean the events didn't happen, it could mean that something happened but the account of the biased source is far from reliably describing the actual events. If you want to be considered seriously, use credible sources. You don't see me ever use ultra-right wing Israeli sources do you?
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Your sources are pure Arab propaganda.
That doesn't mean the events didn't happen.
It could mean the events didn't happen, it could mean that something happened but the account of the biased source is far from reliably describing the actual events. If you want to be considered seriously, use credible sources. You don't see me ever use ultra-right wing Israeli sources do you?
I could care less if you use ultra-right wing Israeli sources. I am willing to consider all sources.
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for the love of fuck,
i wish someone would create a jew/arab-only forum for you dickweeds
evry fuckin day with this shit
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for the love of fuck,
i wish someone would create a jew/arab-only forum for you dickweeds
evry fuckin day with this shit
Actually blackie has claimed that he is not pro-Arab, he just quotes stuff from the media.
Although all the stuff he has quoted to this day are pro-Arab.
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I am willing to consider all sources.
You don't seriously mean that do you? I could easily show you the absurdity of considering all sources of information as having equal validity.
If you show me a piece by BBC or NYTimes, I'll respond to it. But if you show me a piece by "independent" Palestinian journalists, I'll dismiss it as Arab propaganda. I hope that after all the posts I posted here you don't need another example of Palestinians sources caught lying and distorting facts.
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Actually blackie has claimed that he is not pro-Arab, he just quotes stuff from the media.
Although all the stuff he has quoted to this day are pro-Arab.
i don't give a blue fuck what ''side'' he's on....
all-a you jew-arab shit-slingers should be relegated to a ''rubber-room/trolls'' section, and leave the rest of us in peace
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for the love of fuck,
i wish someone would create a jew/arab-only forum for you dickweeds
evry fuckin day with this shit
someone would launch a rocket at it.
and then it would get carpet bombed.
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someone would launch a rocket at it.
and then it would get carpet bombed.
good.
then maybe we could have some peace
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It's all so stupid. If I had ONE WISH, it would be for religion to evaporate from people's minds, including that of the state.
You would be better off wishing racism didn't exist. Because both are equally problematic.
Due to the right of return some contend that many of the Jews in Israel aren't even Semitic but rather Eastern European decedents. Jews more closely related to Hun, Uigur, and Magyrs than to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So these Zions are displacing people who are actually more closely related to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the Palestinian people. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm)
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I am willing to consider all sources.
You don't seriously mean that do you? I could easily show you the absurdity of considering all sources of information as having equal validity.
Yes, I do.
I didn't say I consider all sources as having equal validity, just that I am willing to consider them.
Actually blackie has claimed that he is not pro-Arab, he just quotes stuff from the media.
Although all the stuff he has quoted to this day are pro-Arab.
Is http://www.israelnationalnews.com pro-Arab?
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Is http://www.israelnationalnews.com pro-Arab?
No, that is the ultra-right wing source in Israel. Exactly the kind of source I would never use when debating the Israeli-Arab conflict in this forum, as it is clearly biased towards the Israeli side.
I don't recall seeing you ever use that source here, am I mistaken? I doubt whether you would find any items there supporting a pro-Arab agenda.
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I don't recall seeing you ever use that source here, am I mistaken?
First post in this thread.
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Due to the right of return some contend that many of the Jews in Israel aren't even Semitic but rather Eastern European decedents. Jews more closely related to Hun, Uigur, and Magyrs than to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So these Zions are displacing people who are actually more closely related to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the Palestinian people. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm)
That theory is a controversial one that is not supported by most scholars. However, even if you assume it to be completely true, you still have an uncut lineage of Jews living in modern-day Israel from biblical times until today, specifically in the cities of Jerusalem, Tiberius, Zafed, and Hebron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishuv_haYashan).
On the Arab side, virtually all people who today call themselves "Palestinians" are clearly immigrants from Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, the Arab Peninsula, the Mediterranean, and what-have-you. The only Arab people who can genuinely claim to be living on the land since ancient times are the Bedouins, who do not identify themselves as Palestinians.
Additionally, many Jews were exiled from modern-day Israel by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Roman Empires, probably including those that ended up in Eastern Europe, Central Asia and Persia. These Jews maintained their heritage and cultural ties with the land of Israel in the diaspora for hundreds of years despite continuous hardships and persecution, and there is nothing more natural and righteous than their self-definition as Jews who return to their original homeland. Surely if you compare it to some immigrant from Syria who's offspring turned "Palestinian" in 1964 when the term was invented.
Due to the right of return some contend that many of the Jews in Israel aren't even Semitic but rather Eastern European decedents.
Love it. So I understand that if not for the so-called "right" of return, nobody would have bothered digging up this theory supported by one person.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5giCLoqxk--2Tu-m8t0qBCx53SM6Q
Jewish settlers rampage in West Bank
By Imad Saada – 8 hours ago
NABLUS, West Bank (AFP) — Jewish settlers rampaged in the West Bank on Monday, wounding four Palestinians, as they vented fury that Israel may answer US calls and dismantle outposts in the territory, officials said.
Jewish extremists blocked roads, hurled rocks at drivers, burned fields, cut down olive trees and opened fire towards Palestinians who tried to chase the trespassers from their fields in the northern West Bank, witnesses said.
West of the city of Nablus, an area home to some of the most hardline settlers in the occupied territory, dozens of masked extremists blocked a road in the early hours and hurled rocks at Palestinian drivers who stopped their vehicles to move the obstructions, they said.
"They attacked when the minibus (carrying 17 Palestinian workers on their way to work in Israel) stopped. The man next to the driver was seriously wounded," said Zakaria Sada, an activist with the Rabbis for Human Rights organisation.
When another driver stopped his vehicle to move the stones in the road, the mob beat him until Israeli troops arrived on the scene, Sada said.
Four people were wounded in the attacks, and one remained in serious condition in hospital with a fractured skull, medics said.
Near the settlement of Yizhar -- one of the most radical in the West Bank -- heavy smoke billowed into the air as settlers set fire to Palestinian fields.
When a group of Palestinians threw stones trying to chase them off the land, about 20 settlers armed with guns jumped out from hiding places and opened fire in the direction of the Palestinians and journalists, an AFP correspondent said.
Three army patrol vehicles at a nearby junction stood by and did not intervene to stop the violence, but prevented a Palestinian fire-engine from reaching the field.
The police and army had no immediate comment.
"These sorts of rock hurling incidents are unfortunately very common in the West Bank," one army spokesman said as he tried to search for information on the incidents.
Angry mobs of settlers also set fire to fields, sawed down olive trees and threw rocks at Palestinians outside the villages of Burin and Far'ata south of Nablus.
"It took us six months to plant everything, this is our whole life," Shaher Tawil said, as his fields of wheat and olive trees burned on the outskirts of Far-ata.
Asked to comment on the violence, the president of a settler umbrella organisation in the northern West Bank, Gershon Messika, said: "It's natural that people who face expulsion from their house do what they can to avoid being expelled."
Groups of settlers converged on the area overnight after rumours spread that Israeli security forces were moving in to evacuate settlement outposts.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised to dismantle several dozen wildcat outposts -- settlements that were erected in the West Bank without government approval -- in response to demands from Washington, which has called to a halt to all Israeli settlement activity.
"Our intention is to dismantle the unlawful outposts," Netanyahu told a parliamentary committee on Monday, while pledging to continue construction in other settlements to accommodate population growth.
In the past few weeks Israeli police have taken down some tents and tin huts in the occupied territory, though the structures usually reappear within hours after troops leave.
On Monday police and army removed several shacks containing farming equipment outside the settlement of Elon Moreh northeast of Nablus. New shacks arose on the site within a few hours, local settlers said.
Hardline settlers believe the Jewish people have a God-given, biblical-era right to live on the land, though most of the more than 280,000 Israelis who live in the settlements dotting the West Bank are there for economic reasons.
The international community considers all Israeli settlements on occupied Arab land illegal, but Israel makes a distinction between those built with or without government approval.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3724157,00.html
Palestinians injured by veiled settlers
Ali Waked
Published: 06.01.09, 07:41 / Israel News
Anti-evacuation protest ends with violence against Palestinians: Veiled settlers blocking roads in protest of the evacuation of illegal outposts violently attacked Palestinians early Monday.
According to the Palestinians, four people were injured, one of them sustaining serious wounds, including a fracture in his skull. He was evacuated to a hospital in Nablus.
The police reported that one person was lightly injured. No suspects were arrested.
Shortly after 5 am, the Samaria District Police received a report on veiled settlers hurling stones on Road 55, near the settlements of Kedumim and Karnei Shomron.
According to the Palestinians, the settlers places stones on the road, and when the drivers came out of the cars to move them, they assaulted them and hurled stones at them. They also set fire to tires on the road.
The man who was seriously injured is 41-year-old Ali Sida, who was beaten along with a group of laborers making its way to Israel. Another Palestinian injured is Muhammad Khaled, 21, who was delivering vegetables from the village of Jayus to the village of Bita.
Khaled told Ynet, "I was transporting the vegetables when I encountered a road blocked by stones near Kedumim. I got out of the car, and dozens of settlers – 50 to 60 – began attacking me, broke the car and strongly beat me in the entire body.
He said he felt like he was being lynched, and was only rescued when soldiers arrived at the area. "I saw death before my eyes," he recounted.
An army force dispatched to the area reported being assaulted by the settlers. There were no injuries among the soldiers. The police said that no one was arrested.
Rabbis for Human Rights activist Zakaria Sada told Ynet, "This is the same pattern of action showing that this is a violent and well-planned action on the part of the settlers. The serious thing is that this happened at the entrance to Kedumim, where an IDF patrol is stationed on a permanent basis, as well as an army security camera, so the soldiers should have know who to deal with.
"This didn’t happen, and the soldiers who arrived at the area fired in the air towards the Palestinians rather than towards the settlers who returned to their homes. We demand that the army investigate this incident and take legal proceedings against the settlers."
One of the laborers said that the settlers beat him, and that when the soldiers arrived the Palestinian tried to approach them to complain. Then, he said, the troops fired in the air in order to keep them away. The Coordination and Liaison Authority in Qalqilya and the Kedumim police were informed of the incident.
'We are used to leftist and Arab lies'
On Sunday night and early Monday, hundreds of settlers blocked main roads following rumors that the security forces were planning to evacuate illegal outposts, including Ramat Gilad.
Following the rumors, settlers and right-wing activists were urged to come and "strengthen the outposts". The blocking of traffic routes was aimed at making it harder for the security forces to evacuate the outposts.
Sources in the settlements rejected the report about Palestinian injuries. "We are used to the groundless lies of the left-wing organizations and Arab organizations," one of them told Ynet. "As far as we know, no Arab was injured and there were no clashes."
The same sources noted that there was on incident in which settlers hurled stones at soldiers who had been mistaken for Arabs, but when they realized their mistake the violent acts were halted.
In another incident, the Samaria District Police received a report from the army about some 100 settlers who staged a demonstration at a West Bank junction on Sunday night in protest of the plan to evacuate outposts. Six youths were detained for questioning after blocking a main road and refusing to leave.
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It's all so stupid. If I had ONE WISH, it would be for religion to evaporate from people's minds, including that of the state.
You would be better off wishing racism didn't exist. Because both are equally problematic.
Due to the right of return some contend that many of the Jews in Israel aren't even Semitic but rather Eastern European decedents. Jews more closely related to Hun, Uigur, and Magyrs than to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So these Zions are displacing people who are actually more closely related to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the Palestinian people. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm)
That's not a credible site, to say the least.
Besides, they're still Jews.
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It's all so stupid. If I had ONE WISH, it would be for religion to evaporate from people's minds, including that of the state.
You would be better off wishing racism didn't exist. Because both are equally problematic.
Due to the right of return some contend that many of the Jews in Israel aren't even Semitic but rather Eastern European decedents. Jews more closely related to Hun, Uigur, and Magyrs than to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So these Zions are displacing people who are actually more closely related to the seed of Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the Palestinian people. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm)
That's not a credible site, to say the least.
Besides, they're still Jews.
The point is being Jewish isn't a race, it is a religion. There are many races who belong to the Jewish faith. Some question the accuracy of claiming to be Semitic simply because a person happens to be Jewish. The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites. The word "Semitic" is an adjective derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the Bible. The Zionist who are occupying Israel many of them due to right of return are not Semitic. They don't have any Southwestern Asia roots. Many eastern European people were converted to Judaism during the dark and middle ages.
Benjamin Freedman, another Jewish researcher, wrote his famous treatise FACTS ARE FACTS in 1954. Freedman quotes from many historical sources and shows that the vast majority of Jews derive from the Turkish-Mongol mixed people of the Khazar Kingdom of the 2nd to 10th centuries, NOT from Biblical Israelite stock. (Want more information you might have to actually visit a Library and crack open a book.)
Just find it insane that people who aren't even Semitic claiming that they are suffering from Antisemitism. Zionist are oppressing actually Semites (ie, Arabs, Palestinians) but to add insult to injury they are claiming Arabs are Antisemitic. There is concerted effort to warp the definition of Semitic to mean anyone who self-identifies as a Jew. Done by Zionist that want to use the claim of racism whenever anyone is critical of Israel of Israeli policy. It is just another manipulation to justify the unjustifiable.
Would the world tolerate if Italy was established as a Roman Catholics dominated nation? Any people who were not Roman Catholics would have their homes confiscated and demolished their villages leveled, that is unless they pledge allegiance to Roman Catholic rule. Others are intimidated through violence into containment areas which are run by the Vatican even while claiming those are independent territories. Many angry displaced Italians who have had their property stolen and family members killed in battles over the land fight back with what makeshift arms they may have. The better armed Roman Catholics kill 100 non-Roman Catholics for every one death of their own. To add to their dominance the Vatican in-acts a right of return for all Roman Catholics who are encouraged to settle on the territories of the non-Roman Catholics in Italy. Anyone critical of the new Italy would be labeled anti-Mediterranean even against other non-Roman Catholic Mediterraneans. Doubtful such a set of events would be allowed yet they are and have been allowed in Israel.
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... Except that historically Jews have been both descendants of Jews (i.e. part of the "Jewish" nation) as well as Jews by religion.
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... Except that historically Jews have been both descendants of Jews (i.e. part of the "Jewish" nation) as well as Jews by religion.
Yep. And considering the stance on conversion to Judaism by the Torah, the amount of converts can be considered nil. You'll never see someone knocking on your door or handing out pamphlets to convert you to Judaism, and because of this anti-missionary stance, there are very very few converts.
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... Except that historically Jews have been both descendants of Jews (i.e. part of the "Jewish" nation) as well as Jews by religion.
Yep. And considering the stance on conversion to Judaism by the Torah, the amount of converts can be considered nil. You'll never see someone knocking on your door or handing out pamphlets to convert you to Judaism, and because of this anti-missionary stance, there are very very few converts.
Right.
I know some people convert, but historically conversion to Judaism is quite rare. Aside from the Khazar kingdom (which, at least according to DNA evidence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazaria#DNA_Evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazaria#DNA_Evidence) has had a negligible effect on the worldwide Jewish population), that is.
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Notice neither of you denied that Arabs and Palestinians are Semitic people. But continue the any excuse to justify the actual Anti-Semitic nature of Zionism. The people who were in Palestine who were terrorized by the European immigrants and displaced from their land have more direct Semitic heritage than those immigrants had in the 40s and 50s. There were converts regardless of the lack of missionary work today it did exist at one time. Also there are marriages with other peoples which further removes many Jews from having Semitic claims.
For example here in America you can't claim Native American heritage unless you have one grandparent who is full blooded Native American. I can't claim it on forms as a racial identifier even though I have a great grandmother who was full blooded Machapunga tribe which was part of the greater Algonquian nation. Currently the tribe is considered extinct even though I am a descendant. I can't just can't calm the right of rule over Eastern North Carolina because one of my ancestors was a member of a tribe which had control of the area years ago. I can't displace the people living their currently and take their property because of it either. I can't bring in other people who have ancestors who were part of the Algonquian Nation. BTW this is usually the reason many Indian tribes don't have reservations like the Lumbee because most of them don't have the required bloodline.
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Uh, the term anti-semitic was coined to describe the maltreatment of Jews by others. Going from the roots of it, Zionism is by definition philosemitic (i.e. PRO JEW) and not antisemitic.
Now if you just come out and say you hate Jews, I'd have a lot more respect for you.
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Look, you spray disconnected fragments of information and half-truths, making a splendid mess of things in hope that when the dust clears someone will be convinced that Arabs have more claim to Israel than Israelis. But you fool nobody. Lets restore some order shall we?
Semites is a name for all sons of Shem, among which are the Hebrew people, whose ancestors are the Jews, and various other descendants who are considered ancestors of the Arabs (that part you got right). So both Arabs and Jews are Semites. To claim that a Jew from the US or Poland or Morocco or Yemen or wherever is not a Semite is just like claiming that an Arab living in Morocco or Yemen or the US is not a Semite. The days of the Bible were a long time ago, and both Jews and Arabs were genetically mixed with other peoples to some degree.
However, Jews maintained their identity and cultural and religious heritage, while living among other nations, throughout thousands of years. Despite your attempts, there is not nor has there ever been any missionary activity to convert people to Judaism - on the contrary, converting to Judaism is a very long, difficult and demanding process, never encouraged by the Jewish clergy, and only the most determined ever succeed.
"Palestinians" on the other hand is just a group term for all sorts of immigrants from all over the Arab world who today live in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. They have no collective history or common roots. The only thing that unites them is that they live nearby Israel and hate it.
Trying to play the racial card in favor of the Palestinians' right to the land gets you nowhere. The Jews' cultural and religious ties to the land of Israel never ceased even thousands of years after they were exiled from it. Although there was some mixing, Jews in the diaspora generally stuck together and did not disperse among other peoples. On the other hand, what difference is there between an Syro-Palestinian Arab in Syria or Jordan, and a Palestinian in Judea Samaria or Gaza? Zilch. Just where the border passes.
It is true that a Jew who lived many generations in the diaspora is likely to be mixed to the point where he or she can't claim to be a pure-blood descendant of an Israelite who lived in Israel in Biblical times, so what? Because Jewish identity was preserved so well, it is to a much greater degree that a "Palestinian" cannot claim he is a pure-blooded ancestor of a Canaanite or any other son of Shem. No amount of pseudo-logical tap-dancing will make it so.
So you can be in favor of a new Palestinian state if you want, to live side by side with Israel, the only Jewish state, and the other 3 Palestinian states that already exist (Jordan, Syria, Lebanon). But trying to deny the claim of the Jewish people to the land of Israel with claims such as yours is simply worthless.
Moving on, Antisemitism is a term used to describe prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, even though Arabs are Semites too. The term mainly originated when Jews were persecuted in the diaspora. If you don't approve of the definition, go write your own dictionary and see if anyone buys it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also known as Judeophobia) is a term used to describe prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their religious/cultural/ethnic background.
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, it has been used exclusively to refer to hostility toward Jews since its initial usage.
And even if you do not accept the standard definition of the word, it still makes no difference at all regarding the right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel.
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Uh, the term anti-semitic was coined to describe the maltreatment of Jews by others. Going from the roots of it, Zionism is by definition philosemitic (i.e. PRO JEW) and not antisemitic.
Now if you just come out and say you hate Jews, I'd have a lot more respect for you.
Semite is a race of which Arabs and Palestinians belong as well as many Jews. However, Judaism is a religion. A person can be anti-semitic if they are racist against Arabs and Palestinians who are both Christians and Muslim. Just because the term has been twisted to encompass a religious group to the exclusion of other Semites doesn't make the excluded people any less Semitic. Zionism is antisemitic in that they are prejudice against Semitic people. It isn't even pro-Jew because the war crimes and apartheid dictates of Israel have made the world a less safe place for Jewish people as a whole. Just as the invasion of Iraq and the threatening stances against Iran have made Americans targets. It is called blowback.
What I absolutely hate is that Americans are also targets of this well deserved anger toward Israel. Why, because so many of our tax dollars are wasted there to prop Israel up. I would be angry if American tax dollars were sent to South Africa or to Nazi Germany because they oppressed races within their area of control. So no I am not a racist nor do I hate Jews. I do however hate how the philosophy of Zionism which has been used to steal land and oppress Semitic people. BTW I don't care if you respect me or not. You obviously don't have any respect for human rights.
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And even if you do not accept the standard definition of the word, it still makes no difference at all regarding the right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel.
The "Jewish people" do not have a right to the land of Israel. That is just silly.
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No, anti-Semitism is specifically hatred of Jews, who are Semitic. But since genetic evidence doesn't mean fuck-all to you, why should I even bother pointing that out?
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Notice to the people who don't want threads like this one. Don't read it, don't click on it, it isn't like the thread wasn't clear enough in the title that you didn't have a clue what it would be like.
No, anti-Semitism is specifically hatred of Jews, who are Semitic. But since genetic evidence doesn't mean fuck-all to you, why should I even bother pointing that out?
No Israeli's who want to play the race card have warped the meaning of Antisemitism to only mean Jews. They also throw the term around on anyone that has issues with Israel. Criticize Israel for invading Lebanon and blowing up Lebanon's Airport and tourist areas. Which had more to do with economic terrorism than anything else. (2006 for those who will claim this is ancient history.) Oh, you must be antisemitic. Criticize the way Israel handles any policy even if it is the systematic uprooting and out right theft of Palestinian farmers olive groves. Oh, you must be antisemitic. Demolitions of Palestinian homes and the creation of Jews only roads through Palestinian territories sectioned off by walls that would put the Warsaw Ghetto to shame, don't dare criticize. Cause if you do you must be antisemitic. Feel that all foreign aid should be stopped to all countries. Because Israel is dependent on that subsidy you must be antisemitic. I suppose they want people to support only sending foreign add to Israel or else you are antisemitic. But the truth is still the truth and Palestinians and Arabs are Semitic people and they are entitled to human rights.
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No, Anti-Semitism has always meant anti-Jew since the word was coined in the 1800s.
Personally I don't give a fuck about Israel or Palestine. But eh.
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also, is there a reason why the Palestinians can't settle in Jordan, especially since that country was explicitly created for the Arabs of Palestine to settle in?
and why the Gaza Strip can't simply be given back to Egypt?
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also, is there a reason why the Palestinians can't settle in Jordan
Because they don't want to?
Is there a reason why Jews and Palestinians can't live together?
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also, is there a reason why the Palestinians can't settle in Jordan
Because they don't want to?
Is there a reason why Jews and Palestinians can't live together?
Clearly there seem to be.
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Clearly there seem to be.
Not my problem.
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also, is there a reason why the Palestinians can't settle in Jordan, especially since that country was explicitly created for the Arabs of Palestine to settle in?
and why the Gaza Strip can't simply be given back to Egypt?
The Jordanian government won't let them.
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also, is there a reason why the Palestinians can't settle in Jordan, especially since that country was explicitly created for the Arabs of Palestine to settle in?
and why the Gaza Strip can't simply be given back to Egypt?
The Jordanian government won't let them.
Neither will the Egyptian, and they don't want Gaza back anymore either.
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also, is there a reason why the Palestinians can't settle in Jordan
Because they don't want to?
Is there a reason why Jews and Palestinians can't live together?
No reason they did so before the state of Israel was formed. Many non-immigrant Jews who lived in Palestine prior to Israel have testified to the fact that they were able to get along.
The Nakba: Ethnic cleansing and the birth of Israel The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Israeli historian and senior lecturer at Haifa University Ilan Pappe, explores the period of the Nakba (One World Publisher, Oxford, 2006). The premise is that the Nakba was nothing less than an act of ethnic cleansing, normally regarded by international law as a crime against humanity. To support this theory, the author outlines various definitions from different current sources, including "an ethnically mixed area being turned into a pure ethnic space." He shows how the slaughter and/or forced expulsion of the Armenians in Turkey, the Tutsis in Rwanda and the Croatians and Bosnians in former Yugoslavia is akin to what the Zionists did to the Palestinians on a massive scale in 1948 and are still doing today. Pappe also draws a connection between ethnic cleansing and colonialism as it occurred in North and South America as well as Africa and Australia.
His research is based on primary sources: newly released material (1990s) from the Israeli military archives, David Ben-Gurion’s diary where summaries of many of his meetings are recorded, the rereading of the older archival material through the prism of the ethnic cleansing paradigm and extensive use of Palestinian oral history archives.
Pappe provides a brief historical background leading up to the Nakba and a few chapters at the end of the book about the situation today for Palestinians. The following is a very sketchy timeline of events leading up to the Nakba.
http://www.oneworld-publications.com/cgi-bin/cart2/commerce.cgi?pid=340&log_pid=yes (http://www.oneworld-publications.com/cgi-bin/cart2/commerce.cgi?pid=340&log_pid=yes)
Ilan Pappe is an Israeli Jew and historian. He classifies ethnic cleansing as an ancient mod of behavior of one group toward another. The goal is to turn a mixed area into a homogeneous area.
This book has been met by praise from several different academic leaders.
‘Ilan Pappe has written an extraordinary book of profound relevance to the past, present, and future of Israel/Palestine relations. Anyone concerned with peace and justice for these two peoples needs to read and reflect upon this brave, honest, and illuminating exposure of the crimes committed against the Palestinians in the course of establishing the state of Israel in 1948, and since.’
– Richard Falk, Professor of International Law and Practice, Princeton University
‘Ilan Pappe is out to fight against Zionism, whose power of deletion has driven a whole nation not only out of its homeland but out of historic memory as well. A detailed, documented record of the true history of that crime, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine puts an end to the Palestinian "Nakbah" and the Israeli "War of Independence" by so compellingly shifting both paradigms.’
– Anton Shammas, Professor of Modern Middle Eastern Literature, University of Michigan
‘Ilan Pappe is Israel’s bravest, most principled, most incisive historian.’
– John Pilger
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Regardless of what the Israeli propaganda minster here says. They are certainly terrorists. Those videos are sure as hell not fake. There are tons of them. They simply treat Palestinians worse then animals. Its really no small wonder why there are so many that want Americans dead. The INTERNET can give Americans a detailed and non bias look into this conflict. IN years past the last thing reporting on Israel has been is objective. Keep looking at the video. The film is the best truth. Don't even read what might be written with it. Pictures tell the story. Its stinks to high hell and costs American lives, security and some well over 30 billion a year.
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Notice to the people who don't want threads like this one. Don't read it, don't click on it, it isn't like the thread wasn't clear enough in the title that you didn't have a clue what it would be like.
Word.
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Notice to the people who don't want threads like this one. Don't read it, don't click on it, it isn't like the thread wasn't clear enough in the title that you didn't have a clue what it would be like.
Word.
I think ya'll just like arguing with people who you know you can't change the minds of.
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The term Semite has been perverted into a tool of censorship against any criticism of Jews or Israel. The confusion is compounded with the fact that most everybody calls anybody practicing Judaism a Jew. If I converted to Judaism Monday people I met Thursday would call me a Jew. European settlers to Israel are not Semites no matter what religion.
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Settlers have been going nuts for the past few days. I blame Obama.
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The term Semite has been perverted into a tool of censorship against any criticism of Jews or Israel. The confusion is compounded with the fact that most everybody calls anybody practicing Judaism a Jew. If I converted to Judaism Monday people I met Thursday would call me a Jew. European settlers to Israel are not Semites no matter what religion.
The only one confused here is you, and libertylover. Open a god damned dictionary and look up Antisemitism (http://www.google.co.il/search?hl=iw&rlz=1C1GGLS_enIL303IL303&q=Antisemitism+definition&btnG=חיפוש&meta=).
If I converted to Judaism Monday people I met Thursday would call me a Jew
Yes, and they'd be technically correct.
European settlers to Israel are not Semites no matter what religion.
Although I could argue against that, I'm not going to. The bond of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel does not depend on whether Jews are technically Semites or not. If Jews are not Semites, than neither are Arabs since everyone in modern mankind has mixed blood.
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Your propagandist lying bullshit Wont work outside the trailer park.. Ethnicity has nothing to do with religious practice. You have no right to any land. There is no land deeds in the bible. Arabs are Semites tough shit if you don't like it. Your Little censorship term as lost all meaning outside of the 700 club. Posts about Isreal from Isrealis are like newstories about America from Pravada.
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Your propagandist lying bullshit Wont work outside the trailer park.. Ethnicity has nothing to do with religious practice. You have no right to any land. There is no land deeds in the bible. Arabs are Semites tough shit if you don't like it. Your Little censorship term as lost all meaning outside of the 700 club. Posts about Isreal from Isrealis are like newstories about America from Pravada.
(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/5/55/Kikemagician.jpg)
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Well, hard to argue with that cartoon. Its true enough.
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Well, hard to argue with that cartoon. Its true enough.
Wow.
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And considering the stance on conversion to Judaism by the Torah, the amount of converts can be considered nil. You'll never see someone knocking on your door or handing out pamphlets to convert you to Judaism, and because of this anti-missionary stance, there are very very few converts.
That, and hardly anyone wants to become a Jew.
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Hmmm, funny I know many that have convereted, most in conjuction with marrying a Jew. Regardless of opinions on the amount of converts. The point was that Americans call anybody that goes to temple to worship a Jew. Jew was an ethenicity. People in Europe that are Zionist are not part of that. It causes Jews to be lumped into one big group when they are not. It also conviently causes gra spot which is exploited to justify entiltement to land through a bolyshit holy book. Its just like American Manifest detiny. Citing an un proveable ghost in the sky who created humanity, but told one gorup of hjis creation to kill another and take their land? But he loves all mankind. totaly fucking nuts. even the jewish vitual library admidts the precence of ehtnic jews in the area that were never a problem. it also mentions the fact that Iran has jews too. The religon isnt the issue. Its Zionist outsiders invading the land.
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i'm gonna throw this in here, even tho i created a thread for it:
Mother fucker! I'm gunna delete it.
Here is the link:
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29554.msg546418#msg546418
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i'm gonna throw this in here, even tho i created a thread for it:
Mother fucker! I'm gunna delete it.
Here is the link:
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29554.msg546419;topicseen#msg546419
The Humungus is not amused
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Well, hard to argue with that cartoon. Its true enough.
I believe Queen posted that one as bait to see how RACIST you are. And you nibbled. I have a few more cartoons for you, from a different era, note the dates:
(http://www.radioislam.org/cartoons/german-ww2/juifs-tient-les-grands%20-pays.jpg)
(http://www.ushmm.org/photos/49/49821.jpg)
(http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/sturmer/ds37-47.jpg)
What do you think of these you Antisemitic racist slime posing as a pro-Palestinian human rights advocate?!
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jew
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(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6063/l343a27760000132236.jpg)
Wir müssen die Juden ausrotten.
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Racism is funny.
(http://www.lelands.com/App_Themes/Images/Auctions_Images/412/popups/28596.jpg)
First African-American female rabbi in the world ordained today.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=7639090&page=1
Alysa Stanton Becomes First Female Black Rabbi
First African-American Rabbi To Be Ordained Was Raised in a Pentecostal Family
By EMILY FRIEDMAN
May 21, 2009
Growing up in a black, Pentecostal family in Cleveland, Alysa Stanton never imagined the day when she would be preparing to be ordained as a rabbi.
But that day will come June 6 for the single mother who will be ordained by the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Cincinnati, becoming the first African-American female rabbi in the world.
"Ten years ago, if someone said I was going to be a rabbi, I would have laughed," Stanton, 45, told ABCnews.com. "Me, a spiritual leader?"
Soon-to-be rabbi Stanton and her daughter Shana, 14, whom she adopted when she was 14 months old, will move to Greenville, N.C., in August, where Stanton will take her spot behind the pulpit at Congregation Bayt Shalom, which is both conservative and reform.
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Racism is funny.
(http://www.lelands.com/App_Themes/Images/Auctions_Images/412/popups/28596.jpg)
First African-American female rabbi in the world ordained today.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=7639090&page=1
Alysa Stanton Becomes First Female Black Rabbi
First African-American Rabbi To Be Ordained Was Raised in a Pentecostal Family
By EMILY FRIEDMAN
May 21, 2009
Growing up in a black, Pentecostal family in Cleveland, Alysa Stanton never imagined the day when she would be preparing to be ordained as a rabbi.
But that day will come June 6 for the single mother who will be ordained by the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Cincinnati, becoming the first African-American female rabbi in the world.
"Ten years ago, if someone said I was going to be a rabbi, I would have laughed," Stanton, 45, told ABCnews.com. "Me, a spiritual leader?"
Soon-to-be rabbi Stanton and her daughter Shana, 14, whom she adopted when she was 14 months old, will move to Greenville, N.C., in August, where Stanton will take her spot behind the pulpit at Congregation Bayt Shalom, which is both conservative and reform.
so you hate niggers as well as kikes?
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so you hate niggers as well as kikes?
I hate everyone.
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so you hate niggers as well as kikes?
I hate everyone.
Then I recognize in you a kindred soul.
Now I must kill you.
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The claims of racism are bunk bullshit. They aren't a race to begin with. Its a a cheap dodge and tactics of censorship. These people are committing multitudes of crime. They are paid by the US to do it. Calling out baby killers isn't racism or bigotry. Its just being a decent human concern for the lives of innocents. Its very sad that Americans can learn from mistakes of the past.
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Bait LMFAO. Its a true cartoon. And your not a race. You can hide behind that fucking bullshit. it only indicates your weak mind. your lies and and your agenda as a common Israeli Internet revision stooge. Tell me about racisms when you bomb some more baby's you filthy piece of shit.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GpIxDFP7tdQ/SV5cIUVr4yI/AAAAAAAAAeg/dd1GozDgeG8/s400/dead+palestinian+babies.jpg)
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I hate everyone.
kinda like ''dirty harry'', our blackie here is:
Gonzales: There is one question, Inspector Callahan: Why do they call you "Dirty Harry"?
De Georgio: Ah that's one thing about our Harry, doesn't play any favorites! Harry hates everybody: Limeys, Micks, Hebes, Fat Dagos, Niggers, Honkies, Chinks, you name it. Gonzales: How does he feel about Mexicans?
De Georgio: Ask him.
Harry Callahan: Especially Spics.
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Bait LMFAO. Its a true cartoon. And your not a race. You can hide behind that fucking bullshit. it only indicates your weak mind. your lies and and your agenda as a common Israeli Internet revision stooge. Tell me about racisms when you bomb some more baby's you filthy piece of shit.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GpIxDFP7tdQ/SV5cIUVr4yI/AAAAAAAAAeg/dd1GozDgeG8/s400/dead+palestinian+babies.jpg)
Ohh yeah, play the joker card when you run out of good arguments. And you dare call me an internet stooge. Who are these dead children? Who killed them, when and where? Is it real or ketchup ? Perhaps they were killed by one of the many explosive charges that Hamas blew up amidst civilian houses to try and stop the IDF? Perhaps they were executed by Hamas gunmen because their father is Fatah opposition?
And your not a race.
If the Jews are not a race, the Palestinians are DEFINITELY not a race. Neither are the American people, nor any other nation. So fucking what?! Give it a rest.
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Those dead baby's are the argument. Your murderous sack of inhuman shit. You are part of the Israeli attempt to censure speech on the Internet. Your attitudes and the action you supp rt strip you of any entitlement to anything including membership in the Haman race. Your childish re direction too hammas is common Jew tactics that dint work. Hamas is meaningless in this. This about Israelis ONLY. 5 years olds point and say "but he did it too." What balls to talk of lack of an argument with same cue card bullshit you and your filthy ilk spout all over the INTERNET. Your like a god damn automaton. Ive read this script before. Its not worth a pile of dried dog shit. There are no redneck bible thumping PNAC suporters here. your little innocent picked on jew routine is all worn out. Try some reality. You arent even a challenge.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hmso9h7CYTF68IdQTU3_Xd29YRDw
Israel to pay victims of Hebron settler violence
19 hours ago
JERUSALEM (AFP) — Israel will pay compensation to several dozen Palestinian families whose property was damaged when settlers went on a rampage in the flashpoint city of Hebron last December, the army said Sunday.
The defence ministry will pay a total of 250,000 shekels (63,000 dollars, 45,000 euros) to about 50 families who had filed complaints with the Israeli administration in the occupied West Bank, it said.
The families were the victims of hardline Jewish settlers of Hebron who went on what then prime minister Ehud Olmert called a "pogrom" against the local Palestinians after the Israeli police removed settlers entrenched in a disputed house in the southern West Bank city.
The settlers destroyed olive groves, hurled stones, shot off guns, and set at least two Palestinian houses and more than a dozen Palestinian cars on fire. At least three Palestinians were also wounded by gunfire.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL774985
Arabs charged with 2005 killing of Jewish gunman
JERUSALEM, June 7 (Reuters) - Seven Arabs were charged on Sunday with killing a Jewish gunman four years ago at the scene of an attack in which he shot dead four people on a bus in an Arab Israeli town.
The Justice Ministry said the gunman was killed after he had been subdued by police, which meant the seven attackers had taken the law into their own hands. Reports at the time said the gunman had been beaten to death by a crowd that stormed the bus.
The charges were condemned by Israeli Arab legislators, who have long complained that police and other authorities are more lenient towards Jews who attack Arabs.
Israel seldom charges Jews for using deadly force at an attack scene, and often defends such acts as self-defence, such as the case of passersby who shot and killed four Palestinian drivers in Jerusalem this year as they rammed a bulldozer or a car into traffic, in attacks that killed three.
The Arabs charged on Sunday were among residents of the city of Shfaram who stormed the bus after Eden Nathan Zaada, a 19-year-old army deserter and settler, fired at passengers two weeks before Israel's 2005 pullout from the Gaza Strip.
Israeli leaders denounced the attack then as "terrorism".
"Without diminishing the severity of the crimes committed by Zaada, the prosecution believes that the events that led to his death harmed the rule of law seriously," the ministry said.
Five other Arab residents were charged with lesser offences.
The shooting occurred despite warnings by Israeli security agencies that Jewish militants opposed to the evacuation of Gaza settlements would attack Palestinians and Arabs to wreck a pullout they saw as against their biblical birthright.
Police shot dead 13 Arabs in northern Israel in 2000 during protests in support of a Palestinian uprising. An Israeli inquiry found that police acted appropriately, a conclusion strongly criticised by Israel's Arab minority which makes up about 20 percent of the population.
In addition to the four dead in Shfaram, at least 22 people, most of them Arabs, were hurt in the shooting -- the deadliest attack by a Jewish gunman since 1994 when 29 Palestinians were shot dead while praying in the West Bank city of Hebron. (Writing by Joseph Nasr and Allyn Fisher-Ilan, Editing by Ralph Boulton)
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&Do=&ID=38379
Bethlehem - Ma'an/Agencies - Israel charged 12 Palestinian citizens of Israel for the 2005 lynching death of an Israeli who murdered four Palestinians.
Dubbed a "Jewish terrorist" by then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israeli soldier Eden Natan-Zada shot dead four Palestinians and injured 22 others when he opened fire on a bus in Shfaram, northern Israel, in protest of the country's withdrawal from Gaza.
As Natan-Zada paused to unload his army-issued M-16, surviving passengers on the bus beat him to death.
"The prosecution believes that, despite Natan-Zada's atrocious actions, the events that led to his death seriously harmed the rule of law," said a statement from Israeli prosecutors. "In a country governed by laws, whoever takes the law into his own hands and harms someone, even if he committed despicable crimes, will be tried by law enforcement."
The Palestinians allegedly involved in the incident are to be charged with attempted murder, assaulting police and rioting, according to defense lawyer Ahmad Raslan, who said the Haifa court eventually dropped murder charges.
Meanwhile, Israel's leftist Hadash Party chairman and Knesset Member Mohammed Barakeh condemned the charges, saying that prosecuters are blaming the victims rather than the perpetrator.
"Instead of investigating the terrorist Natan-Zada's associates in order to bring his partners in the slaughter at Shfaram to justice, they decide that the only guilty person is the victim," Barakeh said, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
Natan-Zada was an adherent of the Kahane Chai movement that advocates for the expulsion of indigenous Palestinians from what it calls the "Land of Israel," which includes the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The movement is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel.
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Israeli who murdered four Palestinians.
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http://www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/israel_news/radical_jewish_settlers_turning_against_israel/13110
June 23, 2009
Radical Jewish Settlers Turning Against Israel
The Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in this Jewish settlement looks more like a well-fortified auto repair shop than a house of learning.
Located in an industrial neighborhood, the yeshiva has a drab aluminum exterior and tin roof, and it’s surrounded by a metal gate. A small guard house sits out front, and teenage boys wearing oversized, thick-knit kipot walk in and out of the gate and past a lonely basketball hoop.
Appearances notwithstanding, these students and their teachers have become the face of radical Jewish nationalism in Israel.
They are a key part of a movement of settler youth, rabbis, leaders and supporters determined to hold onto the West Bank at any cost. Located mostly in isolated corners of the West Bank like Yitzhar, radicals represent a small but vocal and increasingly violent constituency of the Jewish settler movement.
Radical settlers rampage against Palestinians and Israeli soldiers, sometimes hiding their faces behind black ski masks or scarves. Confident they are following the word of God, they call for a Torah-based theocracy that they say will one day triumph over the State of Israel.
Unlike most settlers, these youths mostly eschew serving in the Israel Defense Forces, which they consider criminal for its evacuation of Jews from Gaza in 2005. Mostly second-generation settlers whose fathers had considered IDF service an automatic rite of passage, these radicals have largely turned against a state they view as having betrayed its core principles.
Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, a teacher at Od Yosef Chai, says Israel has lost its way with its willingness to cede parts of the Land of Israel, the Jews’ biblical birthright.
“To put faith in the state is not the right way to go,” he said.
Ariel is a disciple of the charismatic St. Louis-born head of the yeshiva, Rabbi Yitzhak Ginzburg. Considered a spiritual heir to the late Meir Kahane, Ginzburg gained notoriety—and some jail time—in 1994 after penning an article praising Baruch Goldstein’s killing of 29 Muslim worshipers in Hebron.
Ginzburg preaches a messianic brand of Judaism that views Jews as superior beings and violent revenge attacks on Arabs as justified by the Torah. He is one of a small group of rabbis who provides the theological and ideological underpinnings for radical settlers.
The foot soldiers in the movement are youths who grow up or study in places like Yitzhar. Some go on to seize and establish illegal outposts on lone West Bank hilltops.
Like its predecessors, Benjamin Netanyahu’s government has taken limited steps to dismantle the illegal outposts—notably in the weeks since Netanyahu’s meeting with President Obama in May—but the youths return almost as soon as they are forcibly evacuated. Officially, at least, the government has committed to dismantling all such outposts.
Radicals often are dismissed as rogue, fringe elements by the mainstream settler movement, and their precise number is unknown. But radical settlers’ acts of vigilante violence against Palestinians and, increasingly, against Israeli security forces, have fueled debate inside Israel about the settler movement as a whole and about the threat radical settlers pose to the state—in part because the mainstream settler leadership has not come out forcefully against them.
Roy Sharon, a journalist for Israel’s daily Ma’ariv who covers the settlers, says the division within the settler movement about how to deal with the radicals is not about principle—all believe in the unalienable right of settling the Land of Israel—but about practice: how exactly to achieve that aim.
“The Yesha Council”—the main settler umbrella body—“thinks that it is not the right time to build and settle on all of the Land of Israel, but the radicals think there is no such thing as the ‘right’ timing and there is no need to take into account politics and policies,” Sharon said.
Dror Etkes, who works for an Israeli group called Yesh Din that promotes Palestinian rights in the West Bank, estimated that there are up to 1,000 active radicals. Posters hung in recent days at bus stops across the West Bank calling on supporters to “defend” against evacuation of West Bank outposts say there are 2,000 people living in 26 outposts.
“I feel the state has separated itself from me and is no longer going according to God’s will,” said Moshe Fumberg, 16, who studies at a yeshiva at an illegal outpost near Yitzhar.
Fumberg’s friends boast that they represent a new, bolder generation of Jewish settlers ready to use violence to keep West Bank Jews in their homes.
“We want them to be afraid of us because maybe then there won’t be any more evacuations,” one of Fumberg’s friends said of Israeli security forces charged with evacuating illegal outposts.
Geographically isolated, the youths consume alternative media, including newspapers, Web sites, radio stations and synagogue pamphlets, that feed into their sense of alienation and betrayal. In their synagogues, rabbis rail against cooperating with a government that supports West Bank withdrawals.
“If the State of Israel is criminal and a sinner, then the role of true believers is to correct its ways,” explains Motti Inbari, author of the upcoming book “Jewish Fundamentalism and the Temple Mount.” “This is pushing people into radicalization and into the idea of a post-Zionist state.”
Over the last year and a half, radical settlers seem to have upped the ante. They have defaced Muslim tombstones, set fire to Palestinian olive groves, assaulted Palestinians, slashed tires of IDF vehicles and thrown acid at Israeli soldiers.
It’s all part of a strategy the radicals call “price tag,” which aims to greet every move by the government against illegal settlements with mayhem and violence. Radical youth, encouraged by a small number of veteran settler leaders, are at the forefront of this effort.
Via text messages and with special phone lists, they spread plans for specific activities. Sometimes the message is as simple as three words: “Price tag now.” Settler violence quickly follows.
There is no apparent centralized leadership in the radical settler movement, which by its nature is somewhat anarchic. Among its most outspoken proponents, however, are figures such as Daniella Weiss, the former head of the Kedumim settlement, Hebron’s Baruch Marzel and Nadia Matar, head of Women in Green.
Both Matar and Weiss head groups that signed onto the posters calling on settlers to defend the outposts. Matar, who says she is against violence, said she understands why the youth have decided to “fight back.”
“They have seen the adults capitulate—their rabbis and teachers and parents who tell them to turn the other cheek,” she said. “There is rebellion of youth who are sick and tired of seeing the adults caving in and letting the government trample us. The more adults show real leadership and stick to our principles, the less they will feel a need to rebel.”
Then there are the rabbis like Ginzburg and their followers.
Neriah Ofan, 36, counts himself as a Ginzburg disciple. Ofan, who lives in a house surrounded by cypress trees with his wife and six children in a small outpost near Yitzhar, has caught the eye of Israeli security.
Two separate court orders barred him from being in the West Bank for several months. Part of a committee that called on soldiers to defy evacuation orders, he spent time in administrative detention during the Gaza withdrawal. He also leads a group that holds marches around the walls of Jerusalem’s Old City every month, according to an ancient tradition.
Ofan cuts a stark figure, with jet black beard contrasting with a pair of bright blue eyes that seem to flash when he speaks of his hopes for a Jewish kingdom.
“I think the state of today is mostly of the past. Only a miracle could save it for the future,” he says in his dining room. “It’s heading into oblivion because it has not connected with the Jewish people.”
Stepping outside, he peers at the view behind his house, a steep drop overlooking the terraced hillsides beyond. In the distance, there is another outpost that, like his, was erected illegally.
Ofan says he’s not too concerned about being evacuated.
With the afternoon sun shining on his face, Ofan admires the view.
“I think God chose a good and beautiful land for us,” he says.
This story reprinted courtesy of the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
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“I think God chose a good and beautiful land for us,” he says.
(http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/cuckoo300_tcm9-166867.jpg)
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Bait LMFAO. Its a true cartoon. And your not a race. You can hide behind that fucking bullshit. it only indicates your weak mind. your lies and and your agenda as a common Israeli Internet revision stooge. Tell me about racisms when you bomb some more baby's you filthy piece of shit.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GpIxDFP7tdQ/SV5cIUVr4yI/AAAAAAAAAeg/dd1GozDgeG8/s400/dead+palestinian+babies.jpg)
Ohh yeah, play the joker card when you run out of good arguments. And you dare call me an internet stooge. Who are these dead children? Who killed them, when and where? Is it real or ketchup ? Perhaps they were killed by one of the many explosive charges that Hamas blew up amidst civilian houses to try and stop the IDF? Perhaps they were executed by Hamas gunmen because their father is Fatah opposition?
Sorry as much as you don't want Israel to be held accountable for it's actions against defenseless civilians. The facts are the facts these children were just some of the many who were killed by Israeli missile attacks. Source is Associated Press.
(http://blog.cleveland.com/world_impact/2008/12/large_Dead-Gaza-Children-Dec29-08-MIDEAST_ISRAEL_PALEST_Meye.jpg)
AP Palestinian children from the Balosha family, who were all killed in the same Israeli missile strike, are seen in the morgue before their burial at Kamal Edwan hopsital in Beit Lahiya, northern Gaza Strip, Monday, Dec. 29, 2008.
Full article; An interesting analysis contending that Israel actions are actually making Hamas stronger. http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2008/12/analysis_israeli_assault_on_ha.html (http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2008/12/analysis_israeli_assault_on_ha.html)
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That's the cost of war.
It's Hamas' fault for hiding among civilians.
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It's all so stupid. If I had ONE WISH, it would be for religion to evaporate from people's minds, including that of the state.
I agree. Your wish is quite stupid.
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Sorry as much as you don't want Israel to be held accountable for it's actions against defenseless civilians. The facts are the facts these children were just some of the many who were killed by Israeli missile attacks. Source is Associated Press.
The source for the photo is AP. The entire article that follows is from Chicago Tribune (cleveland.com ?) and has no relevance whatsoever to the photo. Most likely the caption below the photo was added by busy cleveland.com reporters eager to sell a paper or get some hits on their back-ass website. There is not even a mention of where the air-strike that supposedly killed these people supposedly took place. These children just as well could have been killed by Hamas boobytraps as by anything else. Also can't rule out that it is a staged photo following the glorious legacy of Pallywood.
Facts my ass -- this is exactly the kind of third-rate journalism that should immediately raise your eyebrow.
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Give 'em both nukes and let 'em destroy each other.
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Give 'em both nukes and let 'em destroy each other.
How compassionate.
Guess all of the non violent people in Israel and Palestine deserve to die cause they happened to be ruled by a tiny % of violent people.
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Give 'em both nukes and let 'em destroy each other.
How compassionate.
Guess all of the non violent people in Israel and Palestine deserve to die cause they happened to be ruled by a tiny % of violent people.
I'm tired of being compassionate and having to hear this constant bullshit over and over and over and over and over about how it's one sides fault or another and there's innocent people here but not over there. Bullshit. Let 'em blow each other up rather than sending more and more american dollars and lives over to the asshole-of-the-world in order to prolong this madness.
Fuck 'em.
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Give 'em both nukes and let 'em destroy each other.
How compassionate.
Guess all of the non violent people in Israel and Palestine deserve to die cause they happened to be ruled by a tiny % of violent people.
I'm tired of being compassionate and having to hear this constant bullshit over and over and over and over and over about how it's one sides fault or another and there's innocent people here but not over there. Bullshit. Let 'em blow each other up rather than sending more and more american dollars and lives over to the asshole-of-the-world in order to prolong this madness.
Fuck 'em.
So if someone said, lets give the Taliban nukes, and let the US and Afghanistan "blow each other up", that would be good too?
Hamas attacks on Israel are responsible for as many deaths as road accidents. Why don't we drop a bomb on every car factory while we're at it?
I'm tired of ... having to hear this constant bullshit over and over
Who's making you watch the news or visit internet forums? Thats right, no one.
Idiot.
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If it was up to me, a comet would strike the earth and kill everyone.
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So if someone said, lets give the Taliban nukes, and let the US and Afghanistan "blow each other up", that would be good too?
Hamas attacks on Israel are responsible for as many deaths as road accidents. Why don't we drop a bomb on every car factory while we're at it?
I'm tired of ... having to hear this constant bullshit over and over
Who's making you watch the news or visit internet forums? Thats right, no one.
Idiot.
Blah blah, it's actually your fault, blah blah, you could just turn the world off, blah blah, innocent people, blah blah here's some hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the current topic blah blah.
Get bent, you take this shit way to seriously. The world is a fucked up place, especially the middle-asshole-of-the-world-east. There will never be peace and they'll be killing each other for many decades to come and somehow I'm supposed to be concerned with who did what to whom when? Fuck that.
It's funny how people think the U.S. should just stay the fuck out, but as soon as someone just doesn't give a shit what they do in the middle-asshole-of-the-world-east then people scream and moan how you don't care or lack compassion.
I like blackie's idea for a comet. I hope it impacts in the middle-asshole-of-the-world-east so I'll have a few hours to laugh at them.
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Sorry as much as you don't want Israel to be held accountable for it's actions against defenseless civilians. The facts are the facts these children were just some of the many who were killed by Israeli missile attacks. Source is Associated Press.
The source for the photo is AP. The entire article that follows is from Chicago Tribune (cleveland.com ?) and has no relevance whatsoever to the photo. Most likely the caption below the photo was added by busy cleveland.com reporters eager to sell a paper or get some hits on their back-ass website. There is not even a mention of where the air-strike that supposedly killed these people supposedly took place. These children just as well could have been killed by Hamas boobytraps as by anything else. Also can't rule out that it is a staged photo following the glorious legacy of Pallywood.
Facts my ass -- this is exactly the kind of third-rate journalism that should immediately raise your eyebrow.
Israel's policies also hurt Americans because we are seen a condoning and financing the crap. I agree with Nannerpuss on this one small point. The USA needs to stop sending our money and troops over there period. If they kill each other then they do so but USA shouldn't be part of it. In fact I would go farther and say that Israel and other Middle Eastern countries should pay us back our foreign aid so we can build up the USA's infrastructure. For the amount of money we are wasting in the Middle East. We could have built electric cars powered by wind turbine farms and not need a single drop of Middle Eastern oil. Or who knows what potential could have been achieved if the people were actually allowed to keep their own wealth and decide for themselves how to spend their transportation dollars absent government theft.
I agree with Fatcat in that if you don't like to hear about this stuff then don't read the thread and turn the dial on the TV.
The AP identifier for the photo is from the AP. It lists who, where, when and how. You obviously can't read past your denial. The article is relevant. It is an editorial on how the Israeli air strikes are making Hamas stronger politically. Maybe if you weren't so oxygen deprived with your head up your colon you would realize that Israel's eye for an eyelash campaign is hurting the broader Jewish community.
The Gaza was never allowed to be free of Israel ever. When Israel claimed to have pulled out of the Gaza they did not leave entirely. They remained in the Gaza port and blockaded all of the Gaza so they couldn't trade, get supplies to rebuild, conduct business support themselves or their families. It is still an act of war against a group of people to cut them off from any supply chains. Even essential supplies like water are cut off by Israel. Adam Smith said it best in Wealth of Nations, when goods and services can not cross boarders armies usually will. A blockade is a siege and it is an act of war.
There are many who say that with the Israeli blockade it was doubtful any of the Palestinians could even obtain rockets. That the supposed Hamas rockets were actually a false flag operation done by the Israelis to give them an excuse for genocide.
Maybe Hamas will adopt the tactics of the Mossad and start targeting Likud leaders. Wonder if that would help the Israeli Labor Party win the needed seats to dominate the government. Then maybe a real two state solution could be reached and not some pretend two state fraud which Israeli Likud leaders attempted to pass off. While they were actually strangling the Gaza and the West Bank to death.
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So if someone said, lets give the Taliban nukes, and let the US and Afghanistan "blow each other up", that would be good too?
Hamas attacks on Israel are responsible for as many deaths as road accidents. Why don't we drop a bomb on every car factory while we're at it?
I'm tired of ... having to hear this constant bullshit over and over
Who's making you watch the news or visit internet forums? Thats right, no one.
Idiot.
Blah blah, it's actually your fault, blah blah, you could just turn the world off, blah blah, innocent people, blah blah here's some hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the current topic blah blah.
Seriously, if it bothers you that much, why go on a thread called "Israeli settlers are terrorists?"
Hmm... I wonder what people might be talking about in there?
Its like going to Africa and complaining that there are too many black people.
It's funny how people think the U.S. should just stay the fuck out, but as soon as someone just doesn't give a shit what they do in the middle-asshole-of-the-world-east then people scream and moan how you don't care or lack compassion.
Not giving a shit is a far way away from hoping millions of innocent people are killed.
I don't get why people who aren't in favor of government intervention can't also care about the lives of innocent, productive people just because they happen to live in a different place. Now, theres no reasons libertarians would have to care, but the way you say it, its somehow conflicting to want the US to stay the fuck out and to care about strangers at the same time.
The whole "everyone nuking each other will sort of the problems" is stupid even when its not meant seriously, which is most of the time, and the tired "theres nothing good in the middle east" is an incredibly ignorant and myopic opinion.
Case in point, These people (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,587114,00.html) > you.
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So if someone said, lets give the Taliban nukes, and let the US and Afghanistan "blow each other up", that would be good too?
Hamas attacks on Israel are responsible for as many deaths as road accidents. Why don't we drop a bomb on every car factory while we're at it?
I'm tired of ... having to hear this constant bullshit over and over
Who's making you watch the news or visit internet forums? Thats right, no one.
Idiot.
Blah blah, it's actually your fault, blah blah, you could just turn the world off, blah blah, innocent people, blah blah here's some hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the current topic blah blah.
Seriously, if it bothers you that much, why go on a thread called "Israeli settlers are terrorists?"
Hmm... I wonder what people might be talking about in there?
Its like going to Africa and complaining that there are too many black people.
It's funny how people think the U.S. should just stay the fuck out, but as soon as someone just doesn't give a shit what they do in the middle-asshole-of-the-world-east then people scream and moan how you don't care or lack compassion.
Not giving a shit is a far way away from hoping millions of innocent people are killed.
I don't get why people who aren't in favor of government intervention can't also care about the lives of innocent, productive people just because they happen to live in a different place. Now, theres no reasons libertarians would have to care, but the way you say it, its somehow conflicting to want the US to stay the fuck out and to care about strangers at the same time.
The whole "everyone nuking each other will sort of the problems" is stupid even when its not meant seriously, which is most of the time, and the tired "theres nothing good in the middle east" is an incredibly ignorant and myopic opinion.
Case in point, These people (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,587114,00.html) > you.
blah blah blah long winded whiny bullshit blah blah blah
Notice I never once, ever said I hoped there was death that wasn't sarcastic.
but whatever, you're better and smarter than me. Congratulations, you won an interwebs fight!!! Woohoo!
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Its like going to a POPEYES and complaining that there are too many black people.
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blah blah blah long winded whiny bullshit blah blah blah
Notice I never once, ever said I hoped there was death that wasn't sarcastic.
but whatever, you're better and smarter than me. Congratulations, you won an interwebs fight!!! Woohoo!
So you come to threads about Israel to bitch about people caring about Israel/Palestine conflict, and sarcastically claim that it would be best for everyone to nuke each other, even though you really don't care about anyone involved?
Well thats..... something.
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http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF27Ak02.html
Two sides to violence
By Ira Chernus
The Israel Project hired pollster Stanley Greenberg to test American opinion on the Middle East conflict - and got a big surprise. In September 2008, 69% of Americans called themselves pro-Israel. Now, it's only 49%. In September, the same 69% wanted the United States to side with Israel; now, only 44%.
How to explain this dramatic shift? Greenberg himself suggested the answer years ago when he pointed out that, in politics, "a narrative is the key to everything". Last year the old narrative about the Middle East conflict was still dominant: Israel is an innocent victim, doing only what it must do to defend itself against the Palestinians. Today, that narrative is beginning to lose its grip on Americans.
Well, to be more precise, the first part of the old narrative is eroding. Nearly half the American public seems unsure that Israel is still the good guy in the Middle East showdown. But the popular image of the Palestinians as the violent bad guy is apparently as potent as ever. The number of Americans who say they support Palestine remains unchanged from last September, a mere 7%. And only 5% want the US government to take such a position.
Those numbers reflect the narrative that President Barack Obama recited in Cairo on June 4. He chided the Israelis for a few things they are doing wrong - like expanding settlements and blockading Gaza. To the other side, though, his message was far more blunt: "Palestinians must abandon violence." Of Israeli violence, he said not a word.
The president's speech implicitly sanctioned the most up-to-date tale that dominates the American mass media and public opinion today: the Israelis ought to be reined in a bit, but it's hard to criticize them too much because, hey, what would you do if you had suicide bombers and rockets coming at you all the time?
That view is a political winner here. In the latest Pew poll, 62% of Americans say Obama is striking the right balance between Israel and Palestine; of those who disagree, three-quarters want to see him tougher on the Palestinians, not the Israelis. A Rasmussen poll finds even stronger support for a pro-Israel tilt.
There are, however, two things wrong with his narrative. First, though it's somewhat less one-sided than the story that prevailed during the George W Bush years, it is far from impartial, which means the US still cannot act as an even-handed broker for peace in the region. Since no one else is available to play that role, it's hard to see how, under the present circumstances, any version of a peace process can move forward.
The second problem is that the popular narrative just doesn't happen to match the facts. In reality, unjustified violence is initiated on both sides - and if anyone insists on keeping score, Israel's violence, official and unofficial, outweighs the violence coming from the Palestinians.
Coming to grips with Jewish settler violence
Israeli violence is often overlooked here because so much of it is done by official order of the state. Americans are quick to side with the man who wears the badge. Even when he lets loose the kind of violence that recently devastated parts of the Gaza Strip, the reigning assumption is that his gun is a force for law and order.
But what about the kind of violence Palestinians are so often accused of, the unauthorized civilian-on-civilian kind - what the experts term "non-state-actor violence" and the rest of us simply call "terrorism"? Though you may not know this, much of it these days is done by Israel.
"Palestinian civilians bear brunt of settler violence," Agence France-Presse recently reported: "Nestled amid rolling hills and with an eagle eye's view to the Mediterranean coast, Nahla Ahmed's house has all the elements of Eden ... if it weren't for the Molotov cocktail-throwing neighbors. 'We put bars on the windows after the first attack, three years ago,' says the 36-year-old mother of four. 'Now they come each week.'"
The attacks aren't always with Molotov cocktails; sometimes Jewish settlers throw tear gas canisters, simply spray a Star of David on a wall, or cut down trees owned by Palestinians. In other incidents, settlers have shot and killed a 16-year-old boy, fractured the skull of a 7-year-old girl with a rock, set a dog on a 12-year-old boy, and shot dead an Arab man but let his companion go when he identified himself as Jewish. These are not egregious, isolated cases of mayhem; they're just a few random examples of what's happening all too often on the West Bank. To see how depressingly common such violence is, just Google "West Bank settler violence" for yourself.
It's easy enough to see what the violence looks like because a lot of it has been captured on video. And this is just violence against people. The violence against property is far too common to begin to catalog.
Last December, Jewish settlers in Hebron went on a rampage, shooting at Palestinians, setting fire to homes, cars, and olive groves, defacing mosques and graves. Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister at the time, said he was "ashamed" of this "pogrom".
Yet few such settler crimes are seriously prosecuted by the Israeli authorities. The Israeli rights group Yesh Din has documented this in an extensive report, which, the group carefully notes, is merely one more in a long line of similar reports:
Since the 1980s many reports have been published on law enforcement upon Israelis in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. All of the reports ... warned against the failure of the authorities to enforce the law effectively upon Israelis ... who committed offenses against Palestinian civilians ... Yet the problem of attacks against Palestinian people and property by Israelis has only grown worse, becoming a daily occurrence.
Assessing Hamas violence
Jewish settlers who commit violence claim just what the Israeli government claims when it directs state-sponsored violence at Palestinian areas: self-defense - it was nothing but self-defense. And it's certainly true that there are incidents of individual Palestinians venting their frustration violently. After all, they've been living under an arbitrary, demeaning, and sometimes brutal occupation for 42 years.
According to the common Israeli and American narratives, however, the real culprit and chief roadblock to peace is the constant violence - suicide bombings and rocket attacks - planned and carried out by a well-organized political party, Hamas. Again, as it happens, this popular version of events is simply not borne out by the facts.
Consider suicide bombings. In 2003, Israel's premier newspaper, Ha'aretz, reported that Hamas had decided "to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians". Though it's not clear that Israel did stop its own killings, Hamas soon halted its devastating suicide attacks. There were two in 2004 and not a single one in the nearly five years since then, according to the Jewish Virtual Library run by the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (a source hardly sympathetic to Hamas).
The same source counts no "major attacks" on Israeli civilians by any Palestinians since 2006. Though there have been other attacks since then, their frequency has dropped dramatically, and none have been carried out by Hamas itself.
Israelis generally know what most Americans still don't: Suicide bombing, supposedly the trademark of "Palestinian terrorism," has virtually ceased. As a result, Israel's chief complaint has switched to Hamas rocket attacks. How can we let them have the West Bank, the argument goes? Look what happened when we pulled all our settlements out of Gaza and got nothing in return but thousands of rockets. That's why we had no choice but launch our full-scale assault on Gaza in December 2008: to put an end to them.
In fact, though, Hamas rocket attacks had ended in July 2008, when Israel agreed to the ceasefire Hamas had been asking for. That agreement held for four months until Israeli troops killed six Hamas operatives - shortly before Hamas and Fatah were scheduled to create a unified government. It's a familiar Israeli tactic: block Palestinian unity and then complain of "no partner for peace".
Hamas was also moved by the plight of its people in Gaza, growing increasingly short of food, medical supplies, and other basic goods due to an ever-tightening Israeli blockade.
Yet all this is lost in the story that most Israelis tell, and most Americans believe, about why Hamas began shooting rockets (which, compared to the massive Israeli onslaught in response, did relatively little damage). Equally lost is Hamas's return to its moratorium on firing rockets after the recent Gaza war, formally confirmed by the party's leader, Khaled Meshal, in the New York Times.
Occasional rockets do fly out of Gaza, provoking the usual Israeli demand that Palestinian authorities must prevent every single incident of violence before there can be any talk of peace. That's something like holding the U.S. government responsible for the recent shooting at the Holocaust Museum in Washington or the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
A mirror image?
Still, the Palestinian governments in both Gaza and the West Bank could do more to control the private violence of their people, just as the Israeli government could do more to control Jewish settler violence. Yet none of these governments act vigorously because they risk alienating a small but significant portion of their political support.
As the Times's Ethan Bronner recently wrote: "There are striking parallels between the hard-core opponents of a peace deal on each side. They are generally driven by a belief in a law higher than any created by human legislatures; they are exceptionally motivated; and they are very well organized. ... Many Israeli governments have fallen over the issue."
For the risk of offending hard-core groups, neither side sees obvious countervailing political gain. While a minority on both sides condemns the violence of its compatriots, the majority seems to accept it as an excessive, unfortunate, but understandable response to provocations initiated by the enemy. So neither Hamas, nor Fatah, nor the Israeli government see any clear advantage in bending over backwards to stop attacks by non-state groups.
What's more, as Uri Avnery, the grand old man of the Israeli peace movement, explains: "On both sides, the overwhelming majority want an end to the conflict but do not believe that peace is possible - and each side blames the other." Each side blames the other because so many on each side believe that those who perpetrate the violence represent the entirety of the other side. We could have peace, the universal complaint goes, if only "the Palestinians" or "the Israelis" would stop their violence.
The tragedy is that, on both sides, those who inflict violence gain little of practical value from it. Indeed the motives that keep the conflict boiling may have little to do with any hope of practical gain from it. When researchers asked nearly 4,000 Israelis and Palestinians what it would take to make peace, few focused on tangible benefits like gaining more land or resources.
Most on both sides wanted see "their enemies making symbolic but difficult gestures". They agreed that they would be willing to make concessions, but only if "the other side agreed to a symbolic sacrifice of one of its sacred values." The violence done by non-state actors is perversely satisfying, even if ultimately useless, because it's the most visible way to win little symbolic victories.
A new narrative
Palestinians can argue, with good reason, that treating the two sides as mirror images creates a false equivalence. After all, one side is the occupier, constantly inflicting symbolic defeats through the use of state-sponsored violence that dwarfs the violence of its private citizens, or sometimes even more powerfully just by using its ability to re-organize the landscape.
The other side is the occupied, a people with virtually no tools of state violence to wield even if they want to, struggling every day just to survive. In the US and around the world there is growing pressure to reverse the traditional narrative of these last decades and turn the Israelis into the bad guys.
Given the tiny fraction of Americans who identify as pro-Palestinian, it's fruitless to think that a majority of us would ever adopt such a reversed narrative - nor would it be very helpful, regardless of the facts. If the Obama administration really intends to be an even-handed broker, forcing the two sides to move towards genuine compromise at the negotiating table, it needs to represent a nation that tells an even-handed story.
Old narratives don't die out simply because they fail to fit the facts. They die out when a more appealing story comes along. The eroding support for Israeli policies in this country signals a growing appetite for a new, more even-handed narrative.
The crucial conflict is not between Israel and Palestine. It's between peace and violence. Violence comes from both sides. But there's also the possibility of fostering a strong push for peace on both sides. Here in the US, we should urge our government to stop taking sides in the blame game, condemn all the violence - including, for the first time, Israeli violence - and support all forces of peace that exist or arise.
It is hard for many of my fellow Jews to accept the painful truth that we are as capable of violence as the Palestinians, or anyone else. But this new narrative is gaining ground rapidly in the American Jewish community, where groups like J Street and Brit Tzedek v'Shalom are making well-organized efforts to promote it and act upon it.
As non-Jewish Americans become aware of that change, they are likely to feel freer to adopt the even-handed narrative as their own, too. When enough of them do, the political winds in this country will change. Then the White House will feel safe enough to tell Israel, as well as Palestine, to stop both state and non-state violence.
That's a necessary first step for an even-handed broker who hopes to open a path to peace.
Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder and author of Monsters To Destroy: The Neo-conservative War on Terror and Sin. He can be reached at chernus@colorado.edu.
(Copyright 2009 Ira Chernus.)
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Good article the best is in the last of it.
Here in the US, we should urge our government to stop taking sides in the blame game, condemn all the violence - including, for the first time, Israeli violence - and support all forces of peace that exist or arise.
It is hard for many of my fellow Jews to accept the painful truth that we are as capable of violence as the Palestinians, or anyone else. But this new narrative is gaining ground rapidly in the American Jewish community, where groups like J Street and Brit Tzedek v'Shalom are making well-organized efforts to promote it and act upon it.
As non-Jewish Americans become aware of that change, they are likely to feel freer to adopt the even-handed narrative as their own, too. When enough of them do, the political winds in this country will change. Then the White House will feel safe enough to tell Israel, as well as Palestine, to stop both state and non-state violence.
That's a necessary first step for an even-handed broker who hopes to open a path to peace.
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blah blah blah long winded whiny bullshit blah blah blah
Notice I never once, ever said I hoped there was death that wasn't sarcastic.
but whatever, you're better and smarter than me. Congratulations, you won an interwebs fight!!! Woohoo!
So you come to threads about Israel to bitch about people caring about Israel/Palestine conflict, and sarcastically claim that it would be best for everyone to nuke each other, even though you really don't care about anyone involved?
Well thats..... something.
whine moan blah blah cry moan whine blah cry blah blah blah
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jesus christ already.
is it too late to go back & annex part of germany for the hebes?
something....ANYTHING...
could we get the arabs & germans to chip in & buy part of south america, or antarctica (sp?) (i know the jews hate the cold, so we could all chip in for airfare so they can winter in miami)
i'm grasping at straws here, but at least i'm thankin bout it...
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jesus christ already.
is it too late to go back & annex part of germany for the hebes?
something....ANYTHING...
could we get the arabs & germans to chip in & buy part of south america, or antarctica (sp?) (i know the jews hate the cold, so we could all chip in for airfare so they can winter in miami)
i'm grasping at straws here, but at least i'm thankin bout it...
How about this instead. Since the land was given to the Jewish people as an eternal inheritance, we could have the Arabs move back to the countries they came from. Theres less of them, and they could easily be dispersed into the homes of Jews kicked out of Arab lands. Heck they even speak the same language, so integration will be simple.
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jesus christ already.
is it too late to go back & annex part of germany for the hebes?
something....ANYTHING...
could we get the arabs & germans to chip in & buy part of south america, or antarctica (sp?) (i know the jews hate the cold, so we could all chip in for airfare so they can winter in miami)
i'm grasping at straws here, but at least i'm thankin bout it...
How about this instead. Since the land was given to the Jewish people as an eternal inheritance, we could have the Arabs move back to the countries they came from. Theres less of them, and they could easily be dispersed into the homes of Jews kicked out of Arab lands. Heck they even speak the same language, so integration will be simple.
The Jewish people should just kill all the non-jews, or make them slaves, like they did in the good ol' days, like G-d commanded.
When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clear away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, and when the Lord gives them over to you, and you defeat them, then you must utterly destroy them, you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. (Deuteronomy 7.1-2).
When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace, and it opens to you then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labour for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes but shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as your Lord the God has commanded (Deuteronomy 20.10-17).
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Since the land was given to the Jewish people as an eternal inheritance
where & when, pray tell, was this written or agreed to?
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Since the land was given to the Jewish people as an eternal inheritance
where & when, pray tell, was this written or agreed to?
Also, how does an eternal inheritance work?
If a Jew was to sell some of the land to a non-Jew, could another Jew come along and reclaim the land?
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Since the land was given to the Jewish people as an eternal inheritance
where & when, pray tell, was this written or agreed to?
A bunch of people got together and wrote magic words on pieces of paper so there ya go.
I'm also sure some spooky incompetent spaceman with a big hat also supposedly said some magic words...so there ya go.
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Israel's policies also hurt Americans because we are seen a condoning and financing the crap. [..] The USA needs to stop sending our money and troops over there period.
US troops? Where? In Israel? Is this something new I wasn't aware of?!
In fact I would go farther and say that Israel and other Middle Eastern countries should pay us back our foreign aid so we can build up the USA's infrastructure. For the amount of money we are wasting in the Middle East. We could have built electric cars powered by wind turbine farms and not need a single drop of Middle Eastern oil. Or who knows what potential could have been achieved if the people were actually allowed to keep their own wealth and decide for themselves how to spend their transportation dollars absent government theft.
Your separatist view is extremely naive. The US economy is dependent on raw materials from other countries (China, Arab oil, etc.) on a far larger scale than its involvement with Israel. Fuck, Saudi Arabia practically owns 10% of the US economy last time I checked.
The AP identifier for the photo is from the AP. It lists who, where, when and how.
FALSE. The comment under the photo is not from AP, nor is there any information on where the supposed air-strike occurred. Bodies photographed after they were moved are like archeological findings out of their place - practically impossible to deduce any facts out of, especially in Pallywood. It is for this reason that no serious news body that I am aware of has used this photo or others like it.
The article is relevant. It is an editorial on how the Israeli air strikes are making Hamas stronger politically.
The article is about how Israeli policy in Gaza is supposedly making Hamas stronger. Now how is a picture of the Belosha family relevant to that? It's just a plant-in, could have put any picture of any dead body killed any time in Gaza by anyone or anything. It's just an add-on to draw attention to the article. Third-rate journalism.
The Gaza was never allowed to be free of Israel ever. When Israel claimed to have pulled out of the Gaza they did not leave entirely. They remained in the Gaza port and blockaded all of the Gaza so they couldn't trade, get supplies to rebuild, conduct business support themselves or their families. It is still an act of war against a group of people to cut them off from any supply chains. Even essential supplies like water are cut off by Israel. Adam Smith said it best in Wealth of Nations, when goods and services can not cross boarders armies usually will. A blockade is a siege and it is an act of war.
Nobody ever claimed that there is peace between Israel and Gaza. Israel is not occupying Gaza, but thanks to Hamas shitheads Israel in a state of war with Gaza. Israel has no obligation to supply anything to Gaza nor cater to the needs of anyone in Gaza. That is now the sole responsibility of Hamas shitheads. Despite this situation Israel does donate and allow in various goods and basic supplies out of humanitarian concern.
There are many who say that with the Israeli blockade it was doubtful any of the Palestinians could even obtain rockets. That the supposed Hamas rockets were actually a false flag operation done by the Israelis to give them an excuse for genocide.
Yeah right, actually you can go further than that, and say that the Israeli air-force was bombing Sderot itself and then claiming the innocent Hamas lambs were firing rockets into Israel.
I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Maybe Hamas will adopt the tactics of the Mossad and start targeting Likud leaders.
As Hamas have clearly demonstrated throughout two decades, they would be delighted to kill any civilian in Israel, let alone a Likud leader. Unfortunately for you, their efforts, which were partially successful at first, were stopped cold by what people like you call the "Apartheid" wall.
If you had any integrity you'd talk about how Hamas is hurting the Palestinian cause instead of how Israel is supposedly making Hamas stronger.
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No we don't need Israel or the Middle East. And we don't need to hemorrhage the billions of dollars and the lives wasted there. Didn't say we had troops in Israel, I was referencing troops in the Middle East. Why because of a mixture of factors, Israel, oil company greed as well as the greed of the military industrial complex in the USA. For the amount of money the USA is spending in the Middle East the government could have given every family in America, hybrid vehicles. Not that I would want that to happen either, my preference for people to keep their own money and not have it stolen by governments.
If the price of oil became more expensive, because the USA wasn't in the Middle East either with troops or foreign aid, so fucking what. It would only make if financially viable to get oil from Canada. Canada is estimated to have the largest deposit of oil on the planet it is just more difficult to extract. It would put pressure for extracting oil domestically. And no it isn't naive or isolationist as other countries operate this way and aren't hurting because they don't waste money or lives on the Middle East. China buys its oil on the open market, they don't have troops in the Middle East. The Chinese aren't dumping billions on foreign aid to Israel and other Middle Eastern countries. Come to think of it most countries don't give Israel foreign aid and they aren't isolationist or naive and do very well for themselves. It is extremely naive on your part to think that the USA needs the Middle East or Israel. Yours isn't the only game on the planet there are plenty of others willing to sell raw materials on the open market to the USA or hell to anyone willing to pay.
You are lying Israel was and has been occupying the Gaza. Israeli troops never ever left Gaza port and they never stopped the blockade of the Gaza. I have this and other information from a Jewish friend who has contacts in Israel. And since I have known this person for 18+ years personally I tend to give him a whole hell of a lot more credit than you Avshae. I asked my Jewish friend about the Egyptian border and he said it was a mix of bribe and fear on the part of Egypt which gets them to go along with the blockade of the Gaza. Egypt is getting money from the USA which is strongly manipulated by Israeli lobby and are being ordered to maintain the blockade. A blockade which is being used to choke off the Gaza. The Israeli occupation force navy has enforced an arbitrary 4- to 6-mile fishing limit on all the fishermen of Gaza Strip. And these blockade boats consistently break the cease fire killing unarmed Palestinian fishermen. So why isn't there any news on this activity. Because Israel enforces a strict media blackout so much for a free society with nothing to hide.
Next Avshae will be claiming that Israel did not launch any air attacks on the Gaza that Hamas blew up all the buildings and blamed Israeli forces. He already claims none of the Israeli air attacks killed anyone. Sadly for him there are lists of names of people and a mountain of evidence presented on the If Americans Only Knew website.
How horrible the people when their children are blown to pieces didn't think to first take pictures before attempting to save their lives. Eyewitnesses to the events testified that these children were killed in the Israeli air attacks. You simply choose to not believe their testimony much like a Holocaust denier refused to believe the testimony of Jewish survivors. Also notice Avshae's use of racist terms while dismissing survivor testimony. The little bits and pieces of supposed aid from Israel is just for show. If Isreali's really were humanitarians they wouldn't be blowing up Gaza or starving them out with a blockade. They could have used any number of photos to make the point for the editorial which is still relevant. The Israeli air attacks and siege is only making Hamas stronger because they are the only ones seen to be standing up against Israel's genocidal policies in the region. Even with pictures of bodies in bombed out buildings due to Israeli air attacks the excuse will be their is no evidence the photo isn't the aftermath of a bomb on the ground. Avshae will have a ready excuse no mater what the evidence or testimony is presented. But more and more evidence is leaking out and more people are becoming aware of Zionist violence and humanitarian violations. And many of those people are Jews living outside of Israel. If Palestinians should blow up your home mortally wounding any members of your family Avshae, be sure you have pictures of every aspect before you attempt to save them or transport them to a hospital. Cause your testimony isn't going to be good enough if held up to your own standards.
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Also, how does an eternal inheritance work?
it's that old, tricky jew-magic, blackie
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How about this instead. Since the land was given to the Jewish people as an eternal inheritance,
Have you not figured out the God gave it to us line gets you nowhere but mocked? FUCK YOUR GOD YOU THIEVING PIECE OF SHIT!!!!! God just gave me your house so get the fuck out before I go all crusader on your ass.
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
The egyptian border is bullshit. However if Israel didn't get involved with the egyptian border, there would be alot more trade passing through Gaza-Egypt.
Israel bombs border tunnels (http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=egypt+bombs+tunnels&meta=&btnG=Google+Search)
Bitching about Egypt while Israel are royally fucking over Gazan people, would be like complaining about a scratch on your arm after your hand has been cut off.
Also since no one here supports the Egyptian government, its not really going to crop up in conversation much
"Egyptian government sucks."
"yeah, I agree."
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
No, they just kill hundreds of Egyptians every year.
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
No, they just kill hundreds of Egyptians every year.
Whats that got to do with shit?
Avshae was claiming Egyptians are just as "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, except the key factor of genocide involves killing people.
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Does Egypt enforce a coastal blockade?
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atom bomb
quite sick of the jew/arab thing, thanks anyways
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atom bomb
quite sick of the jew/arab thing, thanks anyways
You'd need a couple of 'em, otherwise they'd argue over who's skygod released the power of skygod bomb and fight over that.
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
No, they just kill hundreds of Egyptians every year.
Whats that got to do with shit?
Avshae was claiming Egyptians are just as "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, except the key factor of genocide involves killing people.
Maybe you are not aware of this, but there is a country called "Lebannon".
Ever heard of it?
Years back they DID kill plenty of Palistenians. More in fact than Israel ever did.
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
No, they just kill hundreds of Egyptians every year.
Whats that got to do with shit?
Avshae was claiming Egyptians are just as "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, except the key factor of genocide involves killing people.
Maybe you are not aware of this, but there is a country called "Lebannon".
Ever heard of it?
Years back they DID kill plenty of Palistenians. More in fact than Israel ever did.
I guess I should focus on how bad Lebanon's treatment of Gazan people is then. Oh wait, that isn't happening any more. Still I guess its more important to focus on long ago crimes rather than ones happening today which could be prevented.
Why is it you israel worshippers always take things off the topic of Israel. Don't blame israel, blame hamas, blame egypt, blame lebannon, blame whoever.
First off Avshae whines about how Egypt are just as genocidal as Israel, then when I bring up the fact that Egypt aren't killing hundreds of civillians a year like Israel, the topic somehow gets put on to what Lebannon did way back when. funny, how did we get here?
I guess its convenient to bring up all that bullshit and not address how Israel are ruining millions of Gazan's lives with blockades, bombs, all in the name of getting revenge for a few dozen deaths a year, caused by less than 1% of the Gazan population.
Yes, other countries cause harm to Gazan people. Hamas themselves cause plenty of harm by giving Israel the excuse and the legitimacy to kill hundreds of civillians for every few Hamas members killed. Hell, the UN is plenty complacent in facilitating Israeli government. I don't support those organizations, and I would gladly bitch about them more if anyone here was defending them.
Feel free however to bring up how many people Hamas kill, even though everyone hear agrees Hamas are immoral and should stop what they're doing, bring up how Egypt also has a border wall even though i don't know any anti-Israeler who thinks thats okay either. Bring up some bullshit from 30 years ago that isn't relevant any more.
The reason why everyone harps on about Israel being ruled by immoral scumfucks is because You, Avshae and Joel are the only people who defend such unlibertarian policies on a predominantly libertarian forum.
If people were defending Hamas or Egypt I would happy to criticize them as I criticize Israel (gov), hell even though in nearly every post I write about Israel I put in all these caveats about me not supporting other unlibertarian immoral groups like Hamas, or pretty much any government, it still comes down to how bad all the other people are, and not how bad Israel (gov) is.
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jew
jew
jew
jew
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
No, they just kill hundreds of Egyptians every year.
Whats that got to do with shit?
Avshae was claiming Egyptians are just as "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, except the key factor of genocide involves killing people.
Maybe you are not aware of this, but there is a country called "Lebannon".
Ever heard of it?
Years back they DID kill plenty of Palistenians. More in fact than Israel ever did.
Blah blah blah
You are an Israeli leader. People in your country are being killed by members of Hamas. What do you do?
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
No, they just kill hundreds of Egyptians every year.
Whats that got to do with shit?
Avshae was claiming Egyptians are just as "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, except the key factor of genocide involves killing people.
Maybe you are not aware of this, but there is a country called "Lebannon".
Ever heard of it?
Years back they DID kill plenty of Palistenians. More in fact than Israel ever did.
Blah blah blah
You are an Israeli leader. People in your country are being killed by members of Hamas. What do you do?
i do like any jew would.
move to miami.
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You did notice the fact that I used "genocidal" in quotes as a response to libertylovers outrageous post.
Egypt is just as "genocidal" towards the Gazans as Israel is. Meaning nobody is "genocidal", there is no genocide. Israel is preventing smuggling of weapons into Gaza, just as Egypt is. Just as it is the duty of any country to prevent illegal smuggling from its borders.
Of course Israel is bombing the border tunnels, they were built and are used primarily for weapons smuggling. Trying to claim that it is inappropriate to bomb them because they are also used to smuggle in other things is like claiming it is inappropriate to target a military jeep since it is also used to transport civilians on occasion. Or that it is inappropriate to target a pickup truck with armed gunmen on it since it is a civilian vehicle. Civilians should distance themselves from legitimate military targets, and military should distance itself from civilians, those are the rules of war. And if this is not followed and civilians get hurt then there is no justification to blame the other side. In the same manner Israel is not about to check the nature of each and every activity in the border tunnels before targeting it, nor send troops to re-invade Gaza and purify each and every tunnel sifting between innocent and hostile - the assumption is that all of it is hostile. If you don't want to get hurt don't go there, and don't locate infant nurseries above the tunnels and try to blame Israel if they are hit.
Furthermore, since Israel is in a state of war with Gaza, there is no obligation upon Israel to supply or even let in anything into Gaza (although Israel does supply Gaza with basic necessities to prevent humanitarian disaster, including electricity, water and fuel, and all while being fired at even to this day).
There was (and still is) a state of war between Israel and Gaza. Hamas were launching rockets at Israel, trying to send in suicide bombers, and kidnapping/attempting to kidnap soldiers (and hold them indefinitely without any contact). So during a few weeks of hostilities several months ago, civilians were also inadvertantly killed, being tightly entangled with the many Hamas members targeted. I believe it is in your capability to distinguish between war and genocide. I also believe that you know Israel does not kill "hundreds of Gazans each year", as you have falsely stated twice.
How do you think Egypt would react if Hamas were to pull its shit on Egypt, maybe firing rockets at Egyptian cities for example? Bet your ass there would be an all-out state of war between Egypt and Gaza. Same as for any country.
I just brought up the Egyptian example to demonstrate how everyone likes to bitch about Israel when in fact any country would more or less do the same thing. Israel got shit about "occupation" for years, so in 2005 Israel withdrew from Gaza. So into the vacuum came Hamas, making the situation even worse. So now everyone here is bitching about Israel's policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza, forgetting all about the relative quiet and prosperity in Gaza when Israel was there.
Egypt does not enforce a coastal blockade since it does not control the territorial waters surrounding Gaza. However Egypt is required by the intl. community to enforce a coastal blockade on the North Sinai coasts through which smugglers have brought Iranian made rockets attempting to smuggle them through the Egypt-Gaza border. Egypt, like most enlightened entities, understands that it is beneficial to everyone in the region including the Palestinian civilians, to cut off Hamas weapon supplies.
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I mean, its not like Iran could easily supply Hamas with shitloads of rockets at periods when the Egyptian border blockade was down. Oh, and speaking of the Egyptian border, it seems like the Egyptians are just as "evil" and "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, since they too are conducting the same policy towards Hamas-controlled Gaza as Israel is.
Except Egypt don't kill hundreds of gazan civillians every year.
No, they just kill hundreds of Egyptians every year.
Whats that got to do with shit?
Avshae was claiming Egyptians are just as "genocidal" towards Gaza as the Israelis, except the key factor of genocide involves killing people.
Maybe you are not aware of this, but there is a country called "Lebannon".
Ever heard of it?
Years back they DID kill plenty of Palistenians. More in fact than Israel ever did.
Blah blah blah
You are an Israeli leader. People in your country are being killed by members of Hamas. What do you do?
yay, more off tracking.
To get back to the original point. Israel kill more Palestinians than Egypt.
Israel has their border wall, and they ALSO enforce the border wall in Egypt (by bombing trade tunnels).
This is why Israel is worse than Egypt. I wouldn't use the word genocidal either, but the idea that Egypt does just as much harm to innocent Gazans is bullshit.
To address your bullshit side track.
Here's what I would do:
1. Knock down the border wall and don't imprison traders and immigrants (arrest as many murderers who cross the border as you can)
2. Compensate all Palestinians who've had their lives/property damaged by Israeli artillery/air strikes (get the money for this by selling military hardware if you want)
3. Give back any land that was taken by eminent domain (whether the land goes to Israelis or Palestinians)
4. Legalize drugs in Israel
6. Send American aid money back to US tax payers
7. Put a bounty on any Gazan murderers
8. Arrest any Israelis involved in killing innocent Gazans "this fucker for a start" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/24/israel)
9. Disband Israeli government, then commit suicide for the last 10 years of immorality.
If you really want to stop people getting killed, then invest money in a charity for rocket shielding. If you want to continue on your jewy "every one of us they kill, we'll kill 50 of theirs" (I've heard israel politicians say this), continue your revenge trip trying to kill Hamas which isn't proven to reduce rocket attacks, and definately doesnt stop the damage rocket attacks cause.
Now, I realize theres no way you'd want to follow the above 9 steps, even though its what I'd advocate to Hamas government, so heres the "reasonable" version
1. Spend all the money on bombing Gaza on rocket shielding.
2. Start working with Palestinians to catch Hamas murderers, not indiscriminately bomb the shit out the whole area.
3. Massively reduce trade restrictions (oh noes deh Hamas will get deh weapons, not like they do now)
4. Allow Gazans to travel to Israel and work WITHOUT A WORK PERMIT.
5. Allow Gazans to own weapons (like you do with Israelis), stop acting like all Gazans are children or patsies for Hamas.
The exact way you win these kind of wars is by gaining support with the civilian populace, and make the violent parties look like disruptive psychotics. You police, you don't war, you protect, you don't invade, you keep your moral standards, you don't drop to the level of people you claim are immoral.
Now even I don't agree with how the UK dealt with IRA, they had UK soldiers doing patrols, but it was a huge step up from what Israel are doing. The soldiers were policing, not soldiering. The majority of operations where split between basically travelling around and waiting for the IRA to start some shit, and then defending themselves.
This type of engagement is very dangerous for the soldiers and police involved, which is why during the IRA campaign, 655 UK soldiers and 270 Irish police died, but its also why UK killed a very small minority of the civilians, and why the IRA are now a bunch of nobodies, compared to the 10,000 strong, armed to the teeth bunch of psychos they were in the 1970s.
Hell, Israel kill more civilians than they kill Hamas members (or occasionally just as many). Thats a problem.
Its impossible for Gazans to believe the bullshit Israel pumps out about being righteous defenders, when they kill many hundreds more Gazans than Hamas do. However, it was much easier for Irish people to view IRA as dangerous psychotics when they realized that the majority of Irish people where being killed by IRA memebers, not by the big bad oppressive UK government.
And it was much easier for the UK military and the RUC to gain intelligence on where IRA memebers and weapon stockpiles where.
Israel can peruse a policy of arrest and justice if they want (http://news.egypt.com/en/200807303374/news/middle-east/abbas-israel-arrest-hamas-members-in-wb.html), its just y'all have a big chubby over the word war, and aren't happy unless you see little grey clouds of smoke appearing over concrete cities, so you can imagine some big bad terrorist being blown to smithereens, and not have to think about the dozens of innocent people who were killed in the process.
You might whine that you shouldn't have to put Israeli soldiers at risk to secure the peace, too bad, thats their fucking job, if you want a safe job don't sign up to one where they give you a helmet and a gun.
You can choose the higher path, you just don't want to, and thats the real problem.
During the early 1970s, a typical IRA operation involved sniping at British patrols and engaging them in fire-fights in urban areas of Belfast and Derry. They also killed local police and soldiers when off-duty. These tactics produced many casualties for both sides and for civilian by-standers. The British Army study[which?] of the conflict later described this period (1970-1972), as the 'insurgency phase' of the IRA's campaign.
In rural areas such as South Armagh (which is a majority Catholic area near the border with the Republic of Ireland), the IRA unit's most effective weapon was the "culvert-bomb" - where explosives were planted under drains in country roads. This proved so dangerous for British army patrols that virtually all troops in the area had to be transported by helicopter,[13] a policy which continued until 2007, when the last British Army base was closed in South Armagh.[14] The highest military death toll from an IRA attack came on 27 August 1979, with the Warrenpoint ambush in County Down, when 18 British soldiers from the Parachute Regiment were killed by two culvert bombs placed by the Provisional IRA South Armagh Brigade.
Nah, on second thoughts IRA are nothing like Islamic terrorists.
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Avshae state of denial is as remarkable as a brainwashed individual or zealot could possibly be. He will never give up his racist and destructive views.
Hypothetically we could consider weapons in the hands of Israeli forces equally illegal to the few small rockets in the hands of Gaza forces. In the opposite extreme of give them all nukes. I say disarm both sides completely as much as possible. Take away all the F-16s, tanks, naval fleet, nukes and heavy artillery. Make it impossible for Israel to maintain a blockade or siege on Gaza.
Why is it justified that Israel have all manner of weapons but require that it's neighbors who are suppose to be independent territories are required to be defenseless? Hasn't Israel shown it's willingness to use those weapons on other countries infrastructure and civilian populations in violation of international law on several occasions? (rhetorical question) Since Israel is incapable of peacefully existing without the use of violence then maybe all weapons should be illegal for Israel as well. And just a reminder a blockade is an act of war which was on going prior to the alleged rocket attacks.
I don't agree with one point Fat Cat made which is Gazans working in Israel. There is no reason why they should have to or need to do so. By allowing Gaza to develop their own infrastructure, they could trade with several other countries. But who would invest or insure knowing that Israel will use the smallest of excuses or even false flag events to destroy any businesses built. The real motive behind the blockade and the shelling of civilians is to make life miserable in the Gaza strip. It has little to do with any defense of Israel.
A model for Gaza could be Hong Kong. Hong Kong rarely if ever traded with China while it was independent. Hong Kong has virtually no natural resources of their own. They came up with innovative ways to use sea water in toilets for example saving valuable fresh water resources. The only real difference is the fact that China wasn't constantly harassing Hong Kong which allowed it to prosper. China didn't blow up Hong Kong's electric plants, airport, seize their port or blockade its supply chain. For the longest time Hong Kong and China ignored each other and this allowed Hong Kong to prosper the same could work for Gaza.
Here is where I agree with Fat Cat. Building up of defenses making rockets useless is much better solution than to the air raids on civilians.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-06/29/content_11621516.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-06/29/content_11621516.htm)
GAZA, June 29 (Xinhua) -- An aid ship set sail on Monday towards the Gaza Strip in a new attempt to break Israel's two-year-old blockade on the Palestinian territory, officials said.
The Gaza-based international campaign against the siege said that 21 European activists were aboard, sailing to the Hamas-controlled territory from the Mediterranean port city of Larnaca in Cyprus.
The campaigners began the voyage after one-week delay which the Cyprus authorities attribute to safety tests and examinations the small fishing boat needs to go through. The organizers believe the delay was a result of Israeli pressures.
*Please note this article confirms that there was a blockade on the Gaza prior to any alleged Hamas rocket fire on Israel.
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I don't agree with one point Fat Cat made which is Gazans working in Israel. There is no reason why they should have to or need to do so.
Many Gazans worked in Israel with work permits. Now virtually no work permits are issued, and coupled with the mass constriction of movement in and out of Gaza, it is very damaging for Gazans who relied on work from Israeli employers.
If Israelis don't want to hire Gazans, fine, then there is no need for work permits because any Israelis who don't want to hire gazans, won't hire gazans.
Work permits is just another example of unlibertarian policy by Israel, ostensibly to "protect" Israeli citizens, but ultimately as unproductive and destructive as any other unlibertarian policy.
People should be free to work for whoever they want. Hamas and the Israeli government should have no say in individual voluntary action.
Also, work permits add to the irony of Israelis following policies used against jews by the Nazi goverment.
Building a large wall to control peoples movement... check
only allowing people inside walled area to work outside using a work permit... check
prohibiting weapons and trade to people inside walled area... check
LOLOCOPTER
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I don't agree with one point Fat Cat made which is Gazans working in Israel. There is no reason why they should have to or need to do so.
Many Gazans worked in Israel with work permits. Now virtually no work permits are issued, and coupled with the mass constriction of movement in and out of Gaza, it is very damaging for Gazans who relied on work from Israeli employers.
If Israelis don't want to hire Gazans, fine, then there is no need for work permits because any Israelis who don't want to hire gazans, won't hire gazans.
Work permits is just another example of unlibertarian policy by Israel, ostensibly to "protect" Israeli citizens, but ultimately as unproductive and destructive as any other unlibertarian policy.
People should be free to work for whoever they want. Hamas and the Israeli government should have no say in individual voluntary action.
Also, work permits add to the irony of Israelis following policies used against jews by the Nazi goverment.
Building a large wall to control peoples movement... check
only allowing people inside walled area to work outside using a work permit... check
prohibiting weapons and trade to people inside walled area... check
LOLOCOPTER
I understand Fatcat, I am just not holding them up to Libertarian standards. Under current conditions the two state solution like that of Hong Kong might work out better. Rather than attempting to implement a more Libertarian approach at this time. Certainly free trade with Israel could be an ultimate goal. Right now ending the siege and allowing free trade with other nations would be a huge step forward.
And I do understand that several depend on Israeli employment. If opportunities opened up within Gaza itself through free trade would they want to deal with the hassles imposed by Israel? I agree that individual voluntary action should be left unfettered by any government. It simply isn't the reality on the ground at this time. Not so much I don't agree with the philosophy but rather I have a preference for picking battles which have the greatest chance of success. And in that preference I have selected ending the siege on Gaza as currently the most workable solution.
I also recognize the parallels between policies of the Nazi government. But unlike Nazi situation I don't see any superior forces willing to come in and defeat Israel in order to free Gaza or the Palestinians from Israeli policies. In Ruwanda and Darfur as long as the aggressors weren't expanding their aggression to be threatening to more territory nothing is done. If the Nazis had kept their aggression to just taking over Poland and Austria would WWII have been fought? Do keep in mind WWII wasn't about freeing Jews and the 5 million other targets for extermination by Nazis. WWII was fought to keep Germany from attacking more countries. It wasn't until the Nazis were defeated that the horror of holocaust were brought to light.
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This thread isn't supposed to be about Gaza. There aren't any Israeli settlers in Gaza.
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0630/1224249784847.html
Settlers to build 50 new homes on West Bank
ISRAEL CONFIRMED plans yesterday to build 50 homes in the West Bank settlement of Adam to accommodate settlers who will be transferred from a nearby unauthorised hilltop outpost.
The plan, outlined by defence ministry officials in a statement to Israel’s High Court, is part of a wider project that still needs final approval to construct 1,450 units at Adam north of Jerusalem.
The news broke just before defence minister Ehud Barak left for Washington for talks with US officials in an effort to reach a compromise acceptable to both sides on settlement construction.
Palestinian officials reacted angrily. Palestinian Authority minister for Jerusalem Affairs Abd Al-Qadir said “Israel doesn’t give a damn about US pressure”.
Washington has been pressing Israel for a total cessation of construction in West Bank settlements but Israeli officials have insisted on the right to build homes in existing communities.
The plans to build at Adam followed the government decision to dismantle the nearby outpost of Migron, which was established on private Palestinian land.
Yariv Oppenheimer, head of the left-wing Peace Now movement, accused Mr Barak of rewarding the settlers. “Barak is proving to the settler leadership that violence and creating illegal outposts pay off.”
Meanwhile, the Jerusalem municipality yesterday confirmed that plans to demolish hundreds of Palestinian homes have been shelved. The U-turn followed American pressure and condemnation of house demolitions by US secretary of state Hilary Clinton.
An estimated 20,000 buildings have been built without permits by Palestinians in east Jerusalem. The city’s deputy mayor, Yakir Segev, admitted that the Palestinians were forced to build illegally because it was virtually impossible for them to obtain permits.
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This thread isn't supposed to be about Gaza. There aren't any Israeli settlers in Gaza.
Dude you are the one that posted the article Two Sides to Violence.
It is always possible to redirect toward the illegal settlements in the West Bank which are further shrinking Palestinian territory.
A Palestinian teenager has been shot and seriously injured by a Jewish settler in the northern West Bank.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8021405.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8021405.stm)
Unlikely Ally for Residents of West Bank Ezra Nawi, a Jewish Israeli, helped Palestinians set up an outpost adorned with the Palestinian colors, above, to protest an illegal Israeli settlement. June 27, 2009
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/world/middleeast/28westbank.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/world/middleeast/28westbank.html)
The article mentions the requirement of West Bank property owners to obtain a building permit from Israel. If they are independent why do they need Israeli permits to building anything?
There is an infamous video on the web which shows Jewish settlers harassing a Palestinian family. The Israeli police only look on and do nothing to stop the Jewish settler harassment. These Israeli authorities even threaten the Palestinian Mother who simply wants to retrieve her child before the Jewish bullies or authorities beat or kill her child.
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Avshae state of denial is as remarkable as a brainwashed individual or zealot could possibly be. He will never give up his racist and destructive views.
That's because He. Is. A. Troll.
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0630/1224249784847.html
Settlers to build 50 new homes on West Bank
Meanwhile, the Jerusalem municipality yesterday confirmed that plans to demolish hundreds of Palestinian homes have been shelved. The U-turn followed American pressure and condemnation of house demolitions by US secretary of state Hilary Clinton.
An estimated 20,000 buildings have been built without permits by Palestinians in east Jerusalem. The city’s deputy mayor, Yakir Segev, admitted that the Palestinians were forced to build illegally because it was virtually impossible for them to obtain permits.
Another good article on the subject from yet another independent new source.
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Avshae state of denial is as remarkable as a brainwashed individual or zealot could possibly be. He will never give up his racist and destructive views.
That's because He. Is. A. Troll.
I think the term Troll is used way to freely to dismiss people we disagree with. I always viewed trolls as being ones who didn't believe in their position. They just posted inflammatory things to make others angry. Or they were posting spam, or repeating the same slogan multiple times tying up a thread.
Is it just me or are people accusing others of being trolls to easily?
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This thread isn't supposed to be about Gaza. There aren't any Israeli settlers in Gaza.
Dude you are the one that posted the article Two Sides to Violence.
It has a section about Israeli settler violence.
Coming to grips with Jewish settler violence
Israeli violence is often overlooked here because so much of it is done by official order of the state. Americans are quick to side with the man who wears the badge. Even when he lets loose the kind of violence that recently devastated parts of the Gaza Strip, the reigning assumption is that his gun is a force for law and order.
But what about the kind of violence Palestinians are so often accused of, the unauthorized civilian-on-civilian kind - what the experts term "non-state-actor violence" and the rest of us simply call "terrorism"? Though you may not know this, much of it these days is done by Israel.
"Palestinian civilians bear brunt of settler violence," Agence France-Presse recently reported: "Nestled amid rolling hills and with an eagle eye's view to the Mediterranean coast, Nahla Ahmed's house has all the elements of Eden ... if it weren't for the Molotov cocktail-throwing neighbors. 'We put bars on the windows after the first attack, three years ago,' says the 36-year-old mother of four. 'Now they come each week.'"
The attacks aren't always with Molotov cocktails; sometimes Jewish settlers throw tear gas canisters, simply spray a Star of David on a wall, or cut down trees owned by Palestinians. In other incidents, settlers have shot and killed a 16-year-old boy, fractured the skull of a 7-year-old girl with a rock, set a dog on a 12-year-old boy, and shot dead an Arab man but let his companion go when he identified himself as Jewish. These are not egregious, isolated cases of mayhem; they're just a few random examples of what's happening all too often on the West Bank. To see how depressingly common such violence is, just Google "West Bank settler violence" for yourself.
It's easy enough to see what the violence looks like because a lot of it has been captured on video. And this is just violence against people. The violence against property is far too common to begin to catalog.
Last December, Jewish settlers in Hebron went on a rampage, shooting at Palestinians, setting fire to homes, cars, and olive groves, defacing mosques and graves. Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister at the time, said he was "ashamed" of this "pogrom".
Yet few such settler crimes are seriously prosecuted by the Israeli authorities. The Israeli rights group Yesh Din has documented this in an extensive report, which, the group carefully notes, is merely one more in a long line of similar reports:
Since the 1980s many reports have been published on law enforcement upon Israelis in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. All of the reports ... warned against the failure of the authorities to enforce the law effectively upon Israelis ... who committed offenses against Palestinian civilians ... Yet the problem of attacks against Palestinian people and property by Israelis has only grown worse, becoming a daily occurrence.
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Israel has their border wall, and they ALSO enforce the border wall in Egypt (by bombing trade tunnels).
"Trade tunnels"?! Next you'll be calling pants "pocket lint producers". These tunnels were built for the primary purpose of smuggling weapons. Israel has the right to pursue the prevention of Hamas' armament. And since Gaza has clearly shown all the aspects of a hostile enemy entity, Israel has the legitimate right to prevent transfer of any type of supply to Gaza (a policy which Israel clearly does not pursue for humanitarian reasons).
Now, I realize theres no way you'd want to follow the above 9 steps, even though its what I'd advocate to Hamas government, so heres the "reasonable" version
1. Spend all the money on bombing Gaza on rocket shielding.
Active prevention and passive prevention are not substitutes for each other, both are pursued. Locking your door at night does not mean you can stop pursuing criminals.
2. Start working with Palestinians to catch Hamas murderers, not indiscriminately bomb the shit out the whole area.
Please kindly name one Gazan person of any substantial rank or influence with which Israel can supposedly "work with" to catch Hamas murderers. Don't you get it? Gaza, as opposed to Judea-Samaria, is completely controlled by Hamas. Everything that happens there is by design or consent of Hamas. Move on.
2. Compensate all Palestinians who've had their lives/property damaged by Israeli artillery/air strikes
3. Give back any land that was taken by eminent domain (whether the land goes to Israelis or Palestinians)
3. Massively reduce trade restrictions (oh noes deh Hamas will get deh weapons, not like they do now)
This sound like the terms of typical unconditional surrender treaties that have been signed throughout History. I'll tell you what Hamas could do. Hamas could unconditionally surrender to Israel. Acknowledge Israel's existence within its borders, and give up any violent intentions against Israel. Hamas should pay lifetime compensation to each and every victim of each and every terrorist attack ever committed by it. Hamas should concede 20% (lets say, just for the sake of making my point) of Gaza land to Israel just cuz they were stupid enough to think they could gain anything by violence against Israeli civilians. For needlessly causing damage, both direct and indirect, to the Israeli economy, the Gaza economy should pay income tax of x percent for y years to Israel as compensation. All Hamas leaders should be tried in a court of international law for terrorism, murder, and war crimes both against Israelis and against their own people.
4. Allow Gazans to travel to Israel and work WITHOUT A WORK PERMIT.
Is an Israeli (or any foreign) citizen allowed to work in Britain or the US without a permit?
5. Allow Gazans to own weapons like you do with Israelis.
I changed that a little, and I agree. I think every arms-bearing person in Gaza should be subject to Israeli standards of weapons carrying permits in Israel. That would mean confiscating 99.9% percent of weapons in Gaza.
You might whine that you shouldn't have to put Israeli soldiers at risk to secure the peace, too bad, thats their fucking job, if you want a safe job don't sign up to one where they give you a helmet and a gun.
Thanks to the likes of Hamas, there is obligatory military service in Israel, as I have already told you and I'm sure you knew even before that, so MOVE ON.
During the early 1970s, a typical IRA operation involved sniping at British patrols and engaging them in fire-fights in urban areas of Belfast and Derry. They also killed local police and soldiers when off-duty. These tactics produced many casualties for both sides and for civilian by-standers. The British Army study[which?] of the conflict later described this period (1970-1972), as the 'insurgency phase' of the IRA's campaign.
In rural areas such as South Armagh (which is a majority Catholic area near the border with the Republic of Ireland), the IRA unit's most effective weapon was the "culvert-bomb" - where explosives were planted under drains in country roads. This proved so dangerous for British army patrols that virtually all troops in the area had to be transported by helicopter,[13] a policy which continued until 2007, when the last British Army base was closed in South Armagh.[14] The highest military death toll from an IRA attack came on 27 August 1979, with the Warrenpoint ambush in County Down, when 18 British soldiers from the Parachute Regiment were killed by two culvert bombs placed by the Provisional IRA South Armagh Brigade.
Nah, on second thoughts IRA are nothing like Islamic terrorists.
You are right, since targeting soldiers and police is not considered terrorism, while suicide bombing civilians concentrations and indiscriminately targeting cities with not even a hint of any military target in sight is definitely terrorism.
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http://www.imemc.org/article/60986
Israeli settlers attack Palestinians in northern West Bank
(http://www.imemc.org/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/jun2009/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_skinnedfoxc14b4_1.jpg)
Israeli settlers attacking a Palestinian woman with the Israeli army standing by
Crowds of Israeli settlers attacked two Palestinian villages Asira Al-Qibliya and Far'ata, southwest of the city of Nablus, on Monday evening. During the attacks at least two Palestinians got injured. According to Israeli media one Palestinian got shot by settler gunfire.
During the settler raids of the villages, several homes were attacked, property was damaged and agricultural fields were destroyed.
The settlers from the nearby Yitzhar settlement also closed the main road between the village of Far'ata, Nablus and Qalqilia.
Local media sources report that Israeli soldiers that arrived to the scene started shooting tear gas canisters towards Palestinian civilians.
According to a member of the village council of Asira Al-Qibliya the Israeli army tried only to stop the settlers after they finished their attacks as planned.
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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246296531095&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Settler wounded in fight with Palestinians near Yitzhar
A young settler was wounded in the eye on Monday evening during a fight with Palestinians near Yitzhar, in the West Bank.
According to an initial IDF investigation, the fight started after Palestinians set fire to fields which bordered Yitzhar. Settlers from the community then confronted the Palestinians.
Security forces that arrived on the scene dispersed the group, and firefighters put out the blaze. The wounded youth was evacuated to a nearby hospital.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3738927,00.html
West Bank: Palestinian shot, settler teen hurt
Yitzhar settlers claim Palestinians torched their agricultural fields, storm nearby village in response; Palestinians say villager injured form settler gunfire
Ali Waked and Efrat Weiss
Published: 06.29.09, 22:05 / Israel News
Dozens of Jews from the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar rioted in the nearby Palestinian village Asira al-Kabaliya Monday evening.
During the riots Palestinian homes were raided, property was damaged and one villager was injured from settler gunfire, according to the Palestinians.
At the same time it was reported settlers from the Gilad Farm outpost attacked a number of Palestinians from the village of Fara'ata.
Palestinians in the West Bank expressed fears that the attacks were coordinated.
The residents of Yitzhar claimed that Palestinians from Asira al-Kabaliya had torched agricultural fields belonging to the settlement.
According to the settlers, the Palestinians stoned them as they approached the fields to extinguish the blaze, adding that a 17-year-old boy was injured in his eye during the incident. The teen was evacuated to the Schneider Children's Medical Center in Petah Tikva.
IDF soldiers alerted to the scene dispersed the crowd using tear gas and put out the fire.
The Israeli army said it was still unclear who was responsible for the fire in Yitzhar.
Meanwhile, police are investigating a suspected arson at the Bat Ayin settlement in Gush Etzion after settlers filed a complaint saying Palestinians had set fire to a barn.
"We could have woken up this morning, god forbid, to the funerals of two families," Bat Ayin resident Menashe Levinger told Ynet on Monday.
According to Levinger, a 14-year-old boy living in a nearby caravan awoke at 3:00 am and spotted the flames consuming the barn. He alerted his parents, who were able to call firefighters to the scene before the fire could reach the two wooden caravans sitting adjacent to the barn.
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Avshae state of denial is as remarkable as a brainwashed individual or zealot could possibly be. He will never give up his racist and destructive views.
That's because He. Is. A. Troll.
I think the term Troll is used way to freely to dismiss people we disagree with. I always viewed trolls as being ones who didn't believe in their position. They just posted inflammatory things to make others angry. Or they were posting spam, or repeating the same slogan multiple times tying up a thread.
Is it just me or are people accusing others of being trolls to easily?
A troll is someone who's not interested in the community here, and wants solely to argue and stir up shit. Avshae fits that description. He's never made a post that I can recall that's not about Israel, and has actually said he joined to "fight disinformation about Israel" or some shit like that.
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Avshae state of denial is as remarkable as a brainwashed individual or zealot could possibly be. He will never give up his racist and destructive views.
That's because He. Is. A. Troll.
I think the term Troll is used way to freely to dismiss people we disagree with. I always viewed trolls as being ones who didn't believe in their position. They just posted inflammatory things to make others angry. Or they were posting spam, or repeating the same slogan multiple times tying up a thread.
Is it just me or are people accusing others of being trolls to easily?
A troll is someone who's not interested in the community here, and wants solely to argue and stir up shit. Avshae fits that description. He's never made a post that I can recall that's not about Israel, and has actually said he joined to "fight disinformation about Israel" or some shit like that.
I didn't think of it in that way so I suppose the Troll label may fit in this case.
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http://www.imemc.org/article/60986
Israeli settlers attack Palestinians in northern West Bank
(http://www.imemc.org/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/jun2009/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_skinnedfoxc14b4_1.jpg)
Israeli settlers attacking a Palestinian woman with the Israeli army standing by
Crowds of Israeli settlers attacked two Palestinian villages Asira Al-Qibliya and Far'ata, southwest of the city of Nablus, on Monday evening. During the attacks at least two Palestinians got injured. According to Israeli media one Palestinian got shot by settler gunfire.
During the settler raids of the villages, several homes were attacked, property was damaged and agricultural fields were destroyed.
The settlers from the nearby Yitzhar settlement also closed the main road between the village of Far'ata, Nablus and Qalqilia.
Local media sources report that Israeli soldiers that arrived to the scene started shooting tear gas canisters towards Palestinian civilians.
According to a member of the village council of Asira Al-Qibliya the Israeli army tried only to stop the settlers after they finished their attacks as planned.
Hamas made them do it.
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Avshae fits that description. He's never made a post that I can recall that's not about Israel,
so fucking THIS, it's not funny
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A troll is someone who's not interested in the community here, and wants solely to argue and stir up shit.
Isn't that what the community here is mostly about?
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A troll is someone who's not interested in the community here, and wants solely to argue and stir up shit.
Isn't that what the community here is mostly about?
Also a good point.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE55S4KY20090629
Israel land expropriation plan angers Palestinians
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel has angered Palestinians with a plan to expropriate plots of West Bank land between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea including areas exposed by the lake's receding water levels.
A spokesman for Israel's Civil Administration Authority, an arm of the Defense Ministry, said Monday it advertised in the Jerusalem-based al-Quds newspaper Friday. Palestinians who object to the move were invited to file appeals within 45 days.
"The land in question includes a strip along the shores of the Dead Sea that emerged over the years as the water receded due to shrinkage," the spokesman said.
Palestinians have been lobbying Washington to pressure Israel to halt land seizures and settlement expansion in the occupied West Bank.
"This would be the largest area of land ever confiscated by Israel in one go since 1967. We will appeal against this decision," said Hatem Abdel-Qader, Palestinian Authority Minister for Jerusalem Affairs.
According to the ads, the land to be expropriated totals 139 sq kms (54 sq miles). It includes plots of land near the settlement of Maale Adumim, the spokesman said, without giving further details.
Maale Adumim is the largest settlement in the West Bank and one of three blocs that Israel wants to keep under any future peace deal with Palestinians.
Israel is trying to reach a deal with Washington on West Bank settlement activity, which President Barack Obama wants completely stopped. The Palestinians have said resuming stalled peace talks with Israel hinges on halting settlement building.
BUILDING SETTLEMENTS
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said he would not allow the building of new settlements but would allow construction in existing communities, under what Israel calls "natural growth."
Defense Minister Ehud Barak meets Obama's special Middle East envoy George Mitchell Tuesday in New York in a bid to bridge differences with Washington over settlements. The West Bank was occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war.
In an apparent attempt to reduce friction with Washington, Netanyahu endorsed in a speech this month the establishment of a Palestinian state, but said it should be demilitarized and would have limited sovereignty. Palestinians rejected his terms.
The World Bank says the Dead Sea water level fell from 394 meters below sea level in the 1960s to 420 meters as of mid-2007. The water surface area is down by a third, from 950 square kilometers to 637, about the size of Lake Geneva.
Large sections of the Dead Sea shore are soft terrain, pock-marked with dangerous sinkholes created by salt evaporation. But the spokesman said some of land slated for expropriation was fit for construction purposes.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas says Israeli settlements would chop a future Palestinian state into separate cantons. He wants them removed so that the Palestinians have a viable state with territorial contiguity.
Israel says settlements are no obstacle to peace, which it says can be achieved only when Abbas regains control of the Gaza Strip. Hamas Islamists seized the enclave in 2007 after routing Fatah forces loyal to the Palestinian president.
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"Settlements" are just Jews building homes on unused land. Palestinian extremists (read: Hamas) don't want Jews building homes on unused land.
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"Settlements" are just Jews building homes on unused land. Palestinian extremists (read: Hamas) don't want Jews building homes on unused land.
Jews don't want Palestinians building homes on unused land. If not then why is it nearly impossible for Palestinians to get building permits. If land is in Palestinian territory. Why do Palestinians have to get building permits from the hostel racist government of Israel to build on what is suppose to be their land? And if they don't get those nearly impossible permits, anything they do build is subject to demolish by Israel. Israeli apologist keep saying that Palestinian land is sovereign to the Palestinians. Well if that were true they shouldn't have to get permission to build a house or a factory from another country should they? This lack of permiting has to be a factor in why so many Palestinians are still forced to live in tent refugee camps.
Settlers don't just take over unused land either.
[youtube=425,350]CMeKSWBzu40[/youtube]
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"Settlements" are just Jews building homes on unused land. Palestinian extremists (read: Hamas) don't want Jews building homes on unused land.
"Unused" land outside of the Green Line.
Just because land is "unused" does not mean it is unowned.
Sometimes the "unused" land is a farmer's field/orchard/grazing land, or the route to the farmer's "unused" land. And all the land around the settlements becomes "security zones"
If and when the Palestinians get a state, maybe the Jews living in the settlements can apply for citizenship, and live under Palestinian rule.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-gorenberg28-2009jun28,0,6704423.story
A guide to Israeli settlements
How and when did they start, why are they spreading, what are the concerns and should anything be done about them?
In Cairo this month, President Obama urged Israel to stop settlement construction in the occupied territories. "The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements," he said. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in his own policy speech soon after, ardently defended the communities and the people who live in them. "The settlers are neither the enemies of the people nor the enemies of peace. Rather, they are an integral part of our people."
So what's all the fuss? We present a guide for the perplexed.
For starters, what's a settlement?
As used today, the term usually refers to an Israeli community built in the territories that Israel conquered in the Six-Day War in June 1967. Israel removed its settlements from the Sinai after making peace with Egypt in 1979, and unilaterally evacuated its Gaza Strip settlements in 2005. So the dispute today deals with the Golan Heights and especially the West Bank. Some of the settlements are tiny, but many are large suburban towns such as Maale Adumim, east of Jerusalem, and Ariel, east of Tel Aviv. These bedroom communities have attracted Israelis, both secular and religious, looking for inexpensive homes. The fastest-growing are those intended exclusively for ultra-Orthodox Jews. With low incomes and large families, the ultra-Orthodox need cheap housing. Playing to that need, successive Israeli governments have drawn them to towns such as Modiin Illit, southeast of Tel Aviv, where more than 40,000 people now live. The great majority of settlers live in large towns, most of them close to the Green Line.
What's the Green Line?
It's the armistice line between Israel and its Arab neighbors, drawn in 1949 at the end of Israel's war of independence. It's also known as the pre-1967 border. After the Six-Day War, Israel extended Israeli law to East Jerusalem (and later, the Golan Heights), which in practical terms meant annexation. But the rest of the West Bank remained under military occupation, with Palestinian autonomous rule in some areas. No other country has recognized Israeli sovereignty in East Jerusalem or the Golan Heights. So for international purposes, the Green Line is the border between Israel and occupied territory. The most recent Israeli figures found about 290,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, not counting East Jerusalem.
And what about East Jerusalem?
In the annexed areas, Israel has built large neighborhoods where nearly 200,000 Israelis now live. Israel considers those neighborhoods part of sovereign Israel. The U.S., like other countries, calls them settlements.
When did all this start?
The first settlement in the Golan Heights was quietly established by young Israelis from left-wing kibbutz movements in July 1967, with the quiet help of government officials and army officers. The first West Bank settlement, Kfar Etzion, was established by Orthodox Israelis in September 1967 with public fanfare and government backing.
What's an outpost?
The outposts are small, unofficial settlements, usually clumps of mobile homes on a hilltop, created after the government stopped approving new settlements in the mid-1990s. Though they lack legal authorization, they've received extensive help from state agencies -- as a scathing government-commissioned report documented. Under the U.S.-backed 2003 "road map" for peace, Israel is required to evacuate outposts built since 2001. So far, only a few tiny ones have been dismantled -- and settlers have subsequently rebuilt them.
So why have settlements been built?
They are intended to "establish facts" -- to ensure continued Israeli control of part or all of the occupied territory. For some settlement advocates, the main purpose is security -- to add territory to make Israel more defensible. For others, the key point is that the West Bank -- referred to as Judea and Samaria -- is part of the historic Jewish homeland. Israelis learn the Bible as their national history, and places in the West Bank such as Hebron, Bethlehem and Shiloh are the setting of much of that history. Religious settlers believe God promised the land to the Jews and that Israel's settlement of it is a fulfillment of that promise. In practice, every Israeli government since 1967 has promoted settlement -- helping to fund construction and providing financial incentives to settlers. Left-wing governments have focused on areas they considered important for security and where few Palestinians live. Right-wing governments have encouraged settlement throughout the West Bank.
Why is this a problem?
Since 1967, some Israelis have argued that keeping the West Bank creates an unbearable dilemma. If Israel maintains permanent rule over the Palestinians without giving them citizenship, it ceases to be a democracy. If it annexes the territory and grants them citizenship, it will no longer be a country with a Jewish majority -- contradicting the most basic goal of Zionism. Today, the only practical way out of this dilemma is a two-state solution, with the Palestinians receiving independence in the Gaza Strip and all or nearly all of the West Bank. To create a Palestinian state that is more than fragmented enclaves, most or all settlements must be evacuated. Continued construction only makes this more difficult.
Where has America been until now?
In principle, the U.S. has consistently opposed all settlements, including the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. However, most administrations have avoided confrontations over the issue, especially when peace negotiations were underway. In the meantime, settlements kept growing. Public diplomatic tussles during the Carter and George H.W. Bush administrations were exceptions.
Speaking of America, aren't most settlers from the U.S.?
Absolutely not. The misconception that settlements are heavily American may stem from foreign correspondents looking for English-speakers to interview when they visit.
Why the tension today?
Obama is insisting that Israel freeze further building in settlements, as called for in the road map. That position fits his goal of achieving a two-state solution. Netanyahu insists that building is needed to allow for "natural growth" of settlements. But settlements have been growing much more quickly than the rest of Israel. Decisions to build, as always, are political choices intended to "create facts." Obama doesn't want construction to preempt negotiations. Unlike most previous presidents, he is insisting that American opposition to settlements is more than mere words.
Gershom Gorenberg is the author of "The Accidental Empire: Israel and the Birth of the Settlements, 1967-1977" and a senior correspondent for the American Prospect. He blogs at southjerusalem.com.
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Jordanians protest against Israeli imports
Jordanian police attack demonstrators who demand a ban on the import of Israeli agricultural products which they say supports Jewish settlements.
(more...http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=99891§ionid=351020206 (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=99891§ionid=351020206)
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I'm late to this thread. My apologies in advance for bringing up anything already debated and disposed of.
From what I understand, the Zionists first came to palestine at a time when it was nearly empty wasteland, unwanted by anyone else, buying large tracts of land from Turkish land holders of the Ottoman Empire. The whole concept of it being a Palestinian homeland or that there is even a Palestinian people is a modern myth.
The new Jewish landlords had ambitious goals, but few Jews to help them carry out those goals and so they hired Arabs from the surrounding lands to work their farms. The so called Palestinians are actually Arab immigrants who were paid to immigrate by the Jews.
If the Zionists wanted an undisputed Jewish homeland, then this was a serious mistake. Whether or not the Arabs who moved to Palestine have a so called "cultural claim" to this land is irrelevant. They came for peaceful purposes and have as much right to the homes and businesses that they built as any Jewish settler.
There is a history of injustices on both sides that have been motivated by ethnic and theological irrationality, hatreds and fear. At first it was Arab riots against Jewish immigration that started the cycle of violence and both justified as well as unjustified retaliation.
Today the situation is not much different. Theologically motivated terrorists intentionally provoke Jewish fears and collectivist retaliation in order to divide palestine into the two waring camps of the Israelis and the "Palestinians".
If the Israelis are to have any hope of peace, they need to put an end to collectivist punishment and to respect the property rights of "Palestinians". This would allow the healing effects of the free market and voluntary cooperation to help bring them toward greater mutual respect and empathy. I don't know if it's too late for this, considering pain each group has suffered at the hands of the other, as well as the intense level of theological and ethnic fanaticism of that region and the interference of many foreign nation states and their evil machinations.
An intelligent Israeli should probably just leave and let the Arabs fight among themselves. It's not worth the trouble.
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Mark, that was a fair evalutation, and I think I agree with pretty much every point except for the last line. Landowners should not just get up and leave because some assholes are threatening and attacking them. They should stand up for themselves and defend their property.
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If the Israelis are to have any hope of peace, they need to put an end to collectivist punishment and to respect the property rights of "Palestinians". This would allow the healing effects of the free market and voluntary cooperation to help bring them toward greater mutual respect and empathy.
this, but it aint going to happen.
As long as Hamas know that Israeli attacks will bring them support, they will provoke attacks.
As long as Israelis think this is a "war" that can be won by brute force and blockades, they'll keep giving Hamas all the ammunition they need, which incidentally isn't smuggled rockets (those are laughably easy to procure and produce), its having a fresh supply of angry recruits willing to risk their lives to kill other people.
The resentment from the '08 Gaza war will last for years, hundreds of dead civilians, thousands of wounded, 4,000 homes destroyed and 2 billion dollars worth of damage doesn't get forgotten any time soon. Israel by comparison suffered 10 dead soldiers, 3 dead civilians, 300 wounded soldiers and less than 200 wounded civilians.
Who do you think make up the majority of fresh Hamas recruits? Young Gazan males who have just been indoctrinated to hate jews for no reason, or young Gazan males who have seen many people they know be killed by Israeli artillery, and had to suffer shitty economic conditions through the mass restriction on trade and movement.
Any "indoctrination" by the media after that point is the equivalent of throwing a match on a bonfire.
Israel can say "we try to avoid civillian casualties" all they want, but no one in Gaza will believe it when pretty much everyone has been touched by damage from Israeli military action in some way. If they want to stop support for Hamas they need to rise above their level, not sink to it.
While what Hamas do to Israeli citizens is unspeakable, the idea that this is anywhere near "an eye for an eye" is ridiculous.
It's pretty easy for Hamas to play the righteous defenders with numbers like that.
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Mark, that was a fair evalutation, and I think I agree with pretty much every point except for the last line. Landowners should not just get up and leave because some assholes are threatening and attacking them. They should stand up for themselves and defend their property.
Rights holders in land (Land owning is illegitimate.) should stand up for themselves and also for their fellow human beings, who may happen to be Arabs.
The question though, is: How valuable is the use of this land? For the most part, it's a small piece of dessert wasteland of little value, except for irrational theological reasons.
Neither side is likely to suddenly become reasonable. Standing up for yourself may well entail cutting your losses and refusing to become sacrificial fodder to your family's theological dogmatism. This goes for both sides.
Also: Does accepting stolen money from the subjects of foreign "allies" constitute "standing up for one's self"?
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From what I understand, the Zionists first came to palestine at a time when it was nearly empty wasteland, unwanted by anyone else, buying large tracts of land from Turkish land holders of the Ottoman Empire. The whole concept of it being a Palestinian homeland or that there is even a Palestinian people is a modern myth.
Orwellian rewrite of history is more like it. Wastelands don't tend to have 500 villages that need to be demolished. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/ (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/)
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From what I understand, the Zionists first came to palestine at a time when it was nearly empty wasteland, unwanted by anyone else, buying large tracts of land from Turkish land holders of the Ottoman Empire. The whole concept of it being a Palestinian homeland or that there is even a Palestinian people is a modern myth.
Orwellian rewrite of history is more like it. Wastelands don't tend to have 500 villages that need to be demolished. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/ (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/)
I checked the website and there's nothing there that contradicts my statement, except for claims they don't even bother to back up with numbers.
The number that you quote is probably real, but you're taking it out of the context of the mid 20th century conflict and applying it to my statement concerning the origins of Zionism in the mid 19th century. They make no claim that all these villages existed before the Jews brought in Arab laborers or about the populations of any villages of that time.
I don't pretend to be an expert and I have a personal feeling of repugnance for these types of arguments concerning "group rights". I'm sure that further research will reveal controversy regarding the population of 1800s Palestine. What I understand on this matter is only what I've heard and it's not the final word. I only brought it up to counter the claim that the Jews invaded Palestine and usurped the land of the "peaceful Palestinians" who have lived there since ancient times".
Whether my statement was correct or not doesn't change the fact that there was large scale immigration of both Arabs and Jews into Palestine subsequent to the initial Zionist's land purchases. No matter what the truth about the origins of the "Palestinians" it also doesn't justify any of the violations of rights and atrocities that have been committed by both sides.
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"History is a myth agreed upon." Napoleon Bonaparte.
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
In 1798, Napoleon entered the land. The war with Napoleon and subsequent misadministration by Egyptian and Ottoman rulers, reduced the population of Palestine. Arabs and Jews fled to safer and more prosperous lands. Revolts by Palestinian Arabs against Egyptian and Ottoman rule at this time may have helped to catalyze Palestinian national feeling. Subsequent reorganization and opening of the Turkish Empire to foreigners restored some order. They also allowed the beginnings of Jewish settlement under various Zionist and proto-Zionist movements. Both Arab and Jewish population increased. By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000. At about that time, the Ottoman government imposed severe restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchase, and also began actively soliciting inviting Muslims from other parts of the Ottoman empire to settle in Palestine, including Circassians and Bosnians. The restrictions were evaded in various ways by Jews seeking to colonize Palestine, chiefly by bribery.
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http://www.rhr-na.org/content/al-kurd-family
On July 16, 2008, the Israeli Supreme Court issued an order to evict the Al Kurd family from their home in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem. This neighborhood is the site of the grave of Shimon Ha Tzaddik, Simon the Righteous.
The Al Kurd's house is part of a housing project the Jordanian government built with the United Nations Refugee and Welfare Association (UNRWA) to house 28 Palestinian refugee families who fled their homes in 1948. Before 1948, Fawzieh Al Kurd, the mother of the family, had a home in West Jerusalem. Her husband, Mohammed, had a home in Jaffa. The Al Kurd family moved into their home in Sheikh Jarra in 1956. It was agreed that ownership of the house would be transferred to the family within 3 years in exchange for their refugee status. In 1959, the home was registered in their name.
Shortly after the six day war in 1967, two groups of Jewish settlers known as the Oriental Jews Association and the Knesset Yisrael Association were successful in falsely claiming ownership of the land where these 28 houses stood. In 1972 these groups managed to register the land in their names with the Israeli land registrar.
In 1982, the two settler groups filed suits against the 28 Palestinian families, claiming their property rights. The families appointed a lawyer by the name of Tosya Cohen to defend their case. Cohen reached an agreement with the settlers in which he recognized the settlers¹ ownership of the land in return for granting the families the status of protected residents. As such, the families would have to pay rent to the owners.
The families refused to accept this agreement, fired Tosya Cohen and refused to pay the rent. They did however propose to put the rent in an escrow fund until the case was settled That proposal was rejected. Because they refused to pay the rent to the settlers' organizations, eviction orders were issued to a number of the families including the Al Kurd family.
The families hired another lawyer and upon further investigations it became clear that the settlers' associations did not own the land. The families' present lawyer, Mr. Houssni Abu Hussein petitioned the land registration department to revoke the settlers' registration of the land in 1972 and to issue an order to restate the rightful owner of the land.
In 2006, the land registration department agreed to the first demand and revoked the ownership of the settlers' association. They refused, however, to issue an order to conduct a rezoning of the area which was necessary in order to declare the rightful ownership.
The families appealed to the Israeli Supreme Court to conduct the rezoning of the area and to annul all documents related to settlers¹ rights.
Meanwhile the two settlers associations had sold their claim to the property to an investment company by the name of Nahlat Shemoun. In Feb 2008, the company submitted a project to the Israeli municipality of Jerusalem in which the company proposed to demolish the 28 homes and build 200 settlement houses and a commercial center This project would link Hebrew University to West Jerusalem.
In 2001, a group of settlers broke into half of the Al Kurd family house the half they had built for their son. Although the Israeli Supreme court issued an order to evict the settlers, they are still living there.
A week and a half ago, the Al Kurd Family was evicted from their home. We met with the mother, Fawzieh Al Kurd in a solidarity tent that had been set up on land just below her home. This is her story as translated by her friend, Amal Nashishibe.
"Last Sunday morning, at 3:30 in the morning, I heard strong knocking on the door. My husband (who is sick) had just woken up to use the bathroom and I didn¹t know what to do. I was trying to help him. The door was forced open. My husband fell to the floor. I was taken by 3 women soldiers. In the house there were at least 50 soldiers. I was in my nightgown and slippers. I was grabbed by the 3 soldiers. They took me to the upper street and they left me. My hands were handcuffed. The whole area was cordoned off.
All around the neighborhood there were soldiers. I was left on the street and no one could get to me. The soldiers were guarding me and they were making happy phone calls. My husband was carried out of the house by the soldiers and left in the neighbors' courtyard. The men were not allowed to come out of their houses to help only women were allowed to come out. I was screaming. I did not see, but my neighbors tell me that people who looked like settlers were taking the furniture out of the house. Everything was dumped out of the pantry. Our furniture was taken to the depot and now we have to pay rent for it there.
The settlers cleaned the house and they started to go in. This was our house since 1956 and this is how it is in Israel. They come take your house. Now I don¹t have an address. I don¹t have a home. There is no recourse no justice. I must take the case to an international court. There is no justice in Israel."
As of this posting, no one is living in the part of the house from which Fawzieh and Mohammed Al Kurd were evicted. The other 27 families in the neighborhood live in fear that they too will lose their homes.
more: http://www.thou-shalt-not-steal.org/eviction.html
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http://www.rhr-na.org/content/al-kurd-family
On July 16, 2008, the Israeli Supreme Court issued an order to evict the Al Kurd family from their home in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem. This neighborhood is the site of the grave of Shimon Ha Tzaddik, Simon the Righteous.
The Al Kurd's house is part of a housing project the Jordanian government built with the United Nations Refugee and Welfare Association (UNRWA) to house 28 Palestinian refugee families who fled their homes in 1948. Before 1948, Fawzieh Al Kurd, the mother of the family, had a home in West Jerusalem. Her husband, Mohammed, had a home in Jaffa. The Al Kurd family moved into their home in Sheikh Jarra in 1956. It was agreed that ownership of the house would be transferred to the family within 3 years in exchange for their refugee status. In 1959, the home was registered in their name.
Shortly after the six day war in 1967, two groups of Jewish settlers known as the Oriental Jews Association and the Knesset Yisrael Association were successful in falsely claiming ownership of the land where these 28 houses stood. In 1972 these groups managed to register the land in their names with the Israeli land registrar.
In 1982, the two settler groups filed suits against the 28 Palestinian families, claiming their property rights. The families appointed a lawyer by the name of Tosya Cohen to defend their case. Cohen reached an agreement with the settlers in which he recognized the settlers¹ ownership of the land in return for granting the families the status of protected residents. As such, the families would have to pay rent to the owners.
The families refused to accept this agreement, fired Tosya Cohen and refused to pay the rent. They did however propose to put the rent in an escrow fund until the case was settled That proposal was rejected. Because they refused to pay the rent to the settlers' organizations, eviction orders were issued to a number of the families including the Al Kurd family.
The families hired another lawyer and upon further investigations it became clear that the settlers' associations did not own the land. The families' present lawyer, Mr. Houssni Abu Hussein petitioned the land registration department to revoke the settlers' registration of the land in 1972 and to issue an order to restate the rightful owner of the land.
In 2006, the land registration department agreed to the first demand and revoked the ownership of the settlers' association. They refused, however, to issue an order to conduct a rezoning of the area which was necessary in order to declare the rightful ownership.
The families appealed to the Israeli Supreme Court to conduct the rezoning of the area and to annul all documents related to settlers¹ rights.
Meanwhile the two settlers associations had sold their claim to the property to an investment company by the name of Nahlat Shemoun. In Feb 2008, the company submitted a project to the Israeli municipality of Jerusalem in which the company proposed to demolish the 28 homes and build 200 settlement houses and a commercial center This project would link Hebrew University to West Jerusalem.
In 2001, a group of settlers broke into half of the Al Kurd family house the half they had built for their son. Although the Israeli Supreme court issued an order to evict the settlers, they are still living there.
A week and a half ago, the Al Kurd Family was evicted from their home. We met with the mother, Fawzieh Al Kurd in a solidarity tent that had been set up on land just below her home. This is her story as translated by her friend, Amal Nashishibe.
"Last Sunday morning, at 3:30 in the morning, I heard strong knocking on the door. My husband (who is sick) had just woken up to use the bathroom and I didn¹t know what to do. I was trying to help him. The door was forced open. My husband fell to the floor. I was taken by 3 women soldiers. In the house there were at least 50 soldiers. I was in my nightgown and slippers. I was grabbed by the 3 soldiers. They took me to the upper street and they left me. My hands were handcuffed. The whole area was cordoned off.
All around the neighborhood there were soldiers. I was left on the street and no one could get to me. The soldiers were guarding me and they were making happy phone calls. My husband was carried out of the house by the soldiers and left in the neighbors' courtyard. The men were not allowed to come out of their houses to help only women were allowed to come out. I was screaming. I did not see, but my neighbors tell me that people who looked like settlers were taking the furniture out of the house. Everything was dumped out of the pantry. Our furniture was taken to the depot and now we have to pay rent for it there.
The settlers cleaned the house and they started to go in. This was our house since 1956 and this is how it is in Israel. They come take your house. Now I don¹t have an address. I don¹t have a home. There is no recourse no justice. I must take the case to an international court. There is no justice in Israel."
As of this posting, no one is living in the part of the house from which Fawzieh and Mohammed Al Kurd were evicted. The other 27 families in the neighborhood live in fear that they too will lose their homes.
more: http://www.thou-shalt-not-steal.org/eviction.html
This is an example of one sided propaganda. If there was any truth to it, then the author would have reported the other side to the dispute. It's impossible to know from this whether either claim to the property is valid or even partially so, but the propagandist style would lead an intelligent person to suspect that the settlers are in the right.
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If there was any truth to it, then the author would have reported the other side to the dispute.
Bullshit. Just because something is propaganda does not mean it is not true.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/200901/20090112ATT45920/20090112ATT45920EN.pdf
P6_TA-PROV(2008)0571
The case of the al-Kurd family
European Parliament resolution of 20 November 2008 on the case of the al-Kurd family
The European Parliament,
– having regard to its previous resolutions on the Middle East,
– having regard to the report drawn up by its ad hoc delegation to Israel and the Palestinian
Territories (30 May - 2 June 2008) and its conclusions,
– having regard to the Fourth Geneva Convention,
– having regard to the relevant United Nations (UN) resolutions,
– having regard to the EU-Israel Association Agreement, and in particular Article 2 thereof,
– having regard to the declaration issued by the Presidency on behalf of the European Union
on 10 November 2008 on the destruction of houses in East Jerusalem,
– having regard to Rule 115(5) of its Rules of Procedure,
A. whereas, on the night of Sunday, 9 November 2008, members of the Israeli police and
armed forces evicted the al-Kurd family from their home in the Sheikh Jarrah
neighbourhood of East Jerusalem where they had lived for more than 50 years; whereas,
immediately afterwards, they allowed settlers to enter the family's house and then sealed off
the area,
B. whereas this eviction was carried out on the basis of an order issued by the Israeli Supreme
Court on 16 July 2008 following long and controversial legal proceedings on disputed
ownership before Israeli courts and authorities,
C. whereas the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East
(UNRWA) has declared that it will continue to offer the family assistance,
D. whereas the eviction took place despite international objections; whereas the US has raised
the issue with the Israeli authorities; whereas this decision may pave the way for the
takeover of 26 more houses in the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood of East Jerusalem, with 26
other families targeted for eviction; whereas this matter has political ramifications for the
future status of East Jerusalem,
E. drawing attention to the relevant UN Security Council resolutions and the fact that the
international community has not recognised Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem,
F. whereas a European Parliament delegation visited the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood on
3 November 2008 and had the opportunity to meet the al-Kurd family,
1. Expresses its deep concern at the eviction of the al-Kurd family, the recent destruction of the houses of Palestinian families by the Israeli authorities in several areas of East
Jerusalem and the possible serious consequences of these measures;
2. Points out that these operations, which seriously affect the lives of the residents of these
areas, contravene international law, and calls on the Israeli authorities to put an end to them
as soon as possible;
3. Points out, whilst acknowledging the independence of the Israeli judiciary within the
internationally recognised borders of the State of Israel, that under international law East
Jerusalem is not subject to the jurisdiction of Israeli courts;
4. Calls on the Council, the Commission and the international community, including the
Quartet, to make all possible efforts to protect Palestinian residents in the Sheikh Jarrah
neighbourhood and other areas of East Jerusalem and calls on the Quartet to play a more
active role in this direction;
5. Reiterates its call to the Israeli authorities immediately to halt any expansion of settlements
and the building of the security fence beyond Israel’s 1967 borders, actions which are
contrary to international law and are undermining peace efforts;
6. Affirms that such actions can only damage the chances of reaching a peace agreement
between Palestinians and Israelis; urges Israel to refrain from all unilateral measures that
may pre-empt the result of the final status negotiations, particularly in Jerusalem;
7. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission, the High
Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy, the governments and
parliaments of the Member States, the Quartet Special Envoy for the Middle East, the Israeli
Government, the Knesset, the President of the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian
Legislative Council.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005342.html
U.S. protests eviction of Arab family from East Jerusalem home
By Akiva Eldar
The United States this week filed an official protest with Israel for harming Palestinians, including the eviction of the al-Kurd family from their home in the Shimon Hatzadik complex in East Jerusalem's Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood.
The U.S. also demanded explanations for the harassment of Palestinian residents in the West Bank by Israeli settlers.
A diplomatic source told Haaretz that the Foreign Ministry responded that the decision to evict the al-Kurd family was made under civilian jurisdiction, so the state has no standing to intervene in a matter still being heard by the Supreme Court.
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Regarding harassment of Palestinians, Israel replied that the state regards this seriously and that law-enforcement officials take all necessary steps to prevent it and bring the perpetrators to trial.
The source said Washington expressed surprise at criticism from Jerusalem that the U.S. administration is dealing with "localized incidents" such as the case of the al-Kurd family and students would could not leave the Gaza Strip for studies abroad.
The diplomat said that handling such incidents is routine both for the embassy in Tel Aviv and the consulate in Jerusalem. He noted that the U.S. administration acts according to policy accepted by Israel that the Palestinian Authority should be assisted and its head Mahmoud Abbas and prime minister Salaam Fayyad strengthened. All the events in which the U.S. has intervened have clashed with that policy.
The administration recently received detailed reports of increased activity by a settler organization in East Jerusalem working to increase the Jewish presence in Arab neighborhoods such as Sheikh Jarrah, Jabal Mukkaber, Silwan and the Mount of Olives. The U.S. consulate in Jerusalem has been tracking new construction plans in those neighborhoods for the Jewish population and reporting on them to Washington.
The protest by the U.S. raises doubts on the authenticity of an Ottoman-era bill of sale on which the Jerusalem District Court relied in ruling that the Shimon Hatzadik property belongs to the Committee for the Sephardic Group. The committee transferred the property to a settler organization called "Shimon's Estate" that sought to evict the family that has lived there since the early 1950s. The al-Kurd family are refugees from West Jerusalem.
MK Yossi Beilin (Meretz) this week submitted a parliamentary question to the prime minister on the al-Kurd eviction notice, which had been slated to be carried out on July 15. The eviction was delayed after the family's lawyer requested an urgent hearing by the Supreme Court.
The question was passed around among cabinet ministers until it was returned to the prime minister, who asked Tourism Minister Ruhama Avraham Balila to respond in her role as cabinet liaison to the Knesset. "In the eyes of the prime minister," Avraham Balila addressed Beilin, "and in my eyes, not to mention in your eyes as a former justice minister, a High Court of Justice ruling always decides such matters."
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6066
Palestinians continue to stave off attempts by Israeli settlers to overtake homes in East Jerusalem
08.07.09 - 10:02
Jerusalem / PNN – The Minister of Jerusalem Affairs says that repeated attempts by settlers to break into Palestinian homes in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood are done with the cooperation and encouragement of the Israeli police.
The East Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah has resisted attempts to overtake its land and homes for years. This is the neighborhood that hosted the solidarity tent that became the house for Umm Kamal Al Kurd after the Israeli administration forced her out.
Since that time Israeli settlers have regularly attempted to seize homes in the area making the program of the military and government even more difficult for Palestinians to combat.
Ongoing court cases disputing land ownership go hand in hand with attacks by settlers on body and property.
Several weeks ago the Fateh party began to stage its own form of nonviolent resistance by creating a human chain around a Palestinian home that Israeli settlers were attempting to overtake. Settlers ran off each time but the situation is not improving with round the clock guards necessary.
Palestinian Minister of Jerusalem Affairs, Hatem Abdel Qader said today, "We see the seriousness of the repeated attempts by settlers to break into Palestinian homes in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood and see that they are with the cooperation and encouragement of the Israeli police."
Fateh spokesperson in Jerusalem, Dimitri Dliani added that the home seizure was prevented this time, but that this was a severe provocation from the settlers. He placed the responsibility for the incident on the Israeli police.
A court case has been in progress for 37 years over the ownership of the land on which this house and others are built. Settlers claim ownership of this land from before 1948, but Palestinian residents have documents of ownership and say that settlers' evidence is forged. The case was proven in favor of the Palestinians with documentation even sent from Turkey however the Israeli prosecutors ignored it. The next hearing is due in September.
Dliani warned that settlers were attempting to seize the particular house in question this week in order to impose a fait accompli before the hearing begins. He reported that the campaign to claim this house by force had been stepped up in the past weeks. He stressed that the solution to the issue would have to be a political one. "We cannot rely on the Israeli courts over the fate of our people and property when these courts are part of the occupying regime."
Sheikh Jarrah has seen several home demolitions in recent years as well as regular settler and military attacks. Several families are facing imminent eviction, with orders to leave their homes by the nineteenth of this month. They also face fines of up to 50,000 NIS, 12,500 USD, to cover the eviction costs. Property rights for six homes in Sheikh Jarrah are already in the hands of settlers and the group Nahalat Shimon is pressing for the eviction of another 27 families so that the area can be razed to build settler units.
In January residents were given copies of Ottoman documents from Ankara which prove their ownership of the land and strengthens their case that settlers claims are based on forgeries. But until the case is heard in September, residents are relying on themselves, community organizations and political parties like Fateh to protect their homes.
The secretary of Fateh in Jerusalem, Omar Shalabi, insisted that the party would remain vigilant against attempts by settlers to illegally occupy Palestinian homes, which he described as a challenge to both international law and the human rights of Palestinian residents.
It's impossible to know from this whether either claim to the property is valid or even partially so, but the propagandist style would lead an intelligent person to suspect that the settlers are in the right.
50 years of living in the house...yeah, it probably belongs to the settlers :lol:
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This is an example of one sided propaganda. If there was any truth to it, then the author would have reported the other side to the dispute. It's impossible to know from this whether either claim to the property is valid or even partially so, but the propagandist style would lead an intelligent person to suspect that the settlers are in the right.
Hi Markuzick,
No use trying to talk about media criticism here, some people here will quote anything that is written on the web and consider it to be "true" and "evidence". They even quote Arab sources, radical left-wing sources and third-rate websites and consider that to be news. One person even quoted a Syrian UN resolution draft. They certainly have no trouble overlooking reports which are clearly biased judging by their style, one-sidedness, or agenda-driven narrative. Anything goes here. I can even write a website fill it with whatever I want and quote it to "prove" my point. There is absolutely no sense of media credibility for some people here.
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I wish douche bags would stop jumping to the conclusion that if you quote something you believe every word of it.
And almost everyone links to the source, so you can decide on the credibility for yourself.
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I wish douche bags would stop jumping to the conclusion that if you quote something you believe every word of it.
And almost everyone links to the source, so you can decide on the credibility for yourself.
Unlike Avshae who rarely links anything with claims of take my word for it. Or links to Rightwing Zionist propaganda which is suppose to be the only unbias source of information :roll:
I have linked to outside of Middle Eastern sources like the BBC, The Guardian, even some Jewish owned papers like The New York Times, or Jewish websites and the If Americans only Knew web site. It is a site which is produced by an American journalist who quotes verifiable sources. I agree with blackie one of my main motivations for linking articles is to allow people to decide on the credibility for themselves.
Palestinian civilians bear brunt of settler violence June 11, 2009 http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090611/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictwestbanksettlerpalestinian (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090611/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictwestbanksettlerpalestinian)"Since that first attack three years ago, her settler neighbours have often come back -- to spray the Star of David on the walls, cut down a tree, throw tear gas canisters. In November 2008, they threw Molotov cocktails inside.
"They want to make us afraid, to make us leave, so that we get out of here," says Nahla's husband Djamal, 38.
"They take the land step by step, with all impunity, and for us there is no security, no-one protects us," he says.
In theory the Israeli army and police are supposed to provide for law and order here, but "do not do enough to prevent harm to the life and property of Palestinians and to stop the violent attacks by settlers," says the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem."
This is and article from Yahoo News and since it isn't 100% pro Zionist it will be likely considered a bias source.
Quote from: Admiral Naismith on July 06, 2009, 06:48:37 AMLandowners should not just get up and leave because some assholes are threatening and attacking them. They should stand up for themselves and defend their property.
Oh really, does this apply to Palestinian Arabs as well then? What do you do when those in positions of authority are racist who will not recognize your legitimate ownership? Just because a government does something doesn't make it right Israeli or otherwise.
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Palestinian civilians bear brunt of settler violence June 11, 2009 http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090611/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictwestbanksettlerpalestinian (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090611/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictwestbanksettlerpalestinian)"Since that first attack three years ago, her settler neighbours have often come back -- to spray the Star of David on the walls, cut down a tree, throw tear gas canisters. In November 2008, they threw Molotov cocktails inside.
"They want to make us afraid, to make us leave, so that we get out of here," says Nahla's husband Djamal, 38.
The Yitzhar settlers are what this thread was started about. The original title of the thread was Yitzhar.
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If there was any truth to it, then the author would have reported the other side to the dispute.
Bullshit. Just because something is propaganda does not mean it is not true.
Any non-objective reporting is either a distortion of the truth, a partial truth or an outright lie. I'll reword the sentence:
If this report was completely truthful, then the author would have reported the other side of the dispute.
Regardless, there's no credibility here. Re-posting of this kind of crap only casts suspicion on the motives and/or intelligence of the poster.
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I wish douche bags would stop jumping to the conclusion that if you quote something you believe every word of it.
And almost everyone links to the source, so you can decide on the credibility for yourself.
Unlike Avshae who rarely links anything with claims of take my word for it. Or links to Rightwing Zionist propaganda which is suppose to be the only unbias source of information :roll:
I have linked to outside of Middle Eastern sources like the BBC, The Guardian, even some Jewish owned papers like The New York Times, or Jewish websites and the If Americans only Knew web site. It is a site which is produced by an American journalist who quotes verifiable sources. I agree with blackie one of my main motivations for linking articles is to allow people to decide on the credibility for themselves.
Palestinian civilians bear brunt of settler violence June 11, 2009 http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090611/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictwestbanksettlerpalestinian (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090611/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictwestbanksettlerpalestinian)"Since that first attack three years ago, her settler neighbours have often come back -- to spray the Star of David on the walls, cut down a tree, throw tear gas canisters. In November 2008, they threw Molotov cocktails inside.
"They want to make us afraid, to make us leave, so that we get out of here," says Nahla's husband Djamal, 38.
"They take the land step by step, with all impunity, and for us there is no security, no-one protects us," he says.
In theory the Israeli army and police are supposed to provide for law and order here, but "do not do enough to prevent harm to the life and property of Palestinians and to stop the violent attacks by settlers," says the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem."
This is and article from Yahoo News and since it isn't 100% pro Zionist it will be likely considered a bias source.
Quote from: Admiral Naismith on July 06, 2009, 06:48:37 AMLandowners should not just get up and leave because some assholes are threatening and attacking them. They should stand up for themselves and defend their property.
Oh really, does this apply to Palestinian Arabs as well then? What do you do when those in positions of authority are racist who will not recognize your legitimate ownership? Just because a government does something doesn't make it right Israeli or otherwise.
I have no doubt that there's plenty of blame on both sides. After all, both sides are dogmatic religious fanatics that are led by a state and a state like organization.
US support of either side will only inflame the situation. The only hope that the Israelis have for peace is the establishment of the whole country as a free market zone. Barring the success of that experiment, they should negotiate for free passage and get the hell out of there. Those that choose to remain behind will either adapt to a bleak life under Islamic rule or go down fighting.
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long-winded jew thread is long-winded
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If there was any truth to it, then the author would have reported the other side to the dispute.
Bullshit. Just because something is propaganda does not mean it is not true.
Any non-objective reporting is either a distortion of the truth, a partial truth or an outright lie.
Nigger, please. Good luck trying to find objective reporting.
Regardless, there's no credibility here. Re-posting of this kind of crap only casts suspicion on the motives and/or intelligence of the poster.
Again, nigger, please. Have all the suspicion you want. I really don't care about your suspicions.
If you have some information that disputes the "crap", post it.
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I have no doubt that there's plenty of blame on both sides. After all, both sides are dogmatic religious fanatics that are led by a state and a state like organization.
US support of either side will only inflame the situation. The only hope that the Israelis have for peace is the establishment of the whole country as a free market zone. Barring the success of that experiment, they should negotiate for free passage and get the hell out of there. Those that choose to remain behind will either adapt to a bleak life under Islamic rule or go down fighting.
If you expect them to be a single democratic government, they can't do that. Because the Jewish elements will be out voted. In a combination state Jews would be the minority. If the West Bank and/or the Gaza were absorbed into Jordan they would be a huge voting block which would demand their own representation and some autonomy. And this is why Jordan doesn't want the territory. It isn't that the Palestinians are bad people it is just they have different views and would want rights which neither Jordan nor Israel wants to allow them to have. You know crazy things like life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
This is why the two state solution would be the best. But then you have right wingers (mostly settlers) in Israel who want to push these people off all the land. Because they think the Gaza and West Bank should be part of Israel minus any non-Jews which is form of genocide. Genocide isn't just killing a group of people. Genocide can also refer to the displacing of people from their land through forced deportment. What the Israeli government is doing to people in Eastern Jerusalem by recognizing false documents of ownership. Documents which are then used as an excuse to remove legitimate owners from their homes.
The territories need to have true autonomy. This means not getting permission from Israel on maters of state. Currently there is no autonomy, the population is considered to be living under an Apartheid system of government. The minority population of Israel is dictating to the people in these territories through force of arms.
I have to make a correction I think Blackie means it is difficult if not impossible to find objective reporting and if you have doubts about something find the other sides non-objective report and determine the truth for yourself. Adding to the difficulty is Israels media blackout on the territories.
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I have to make a correction I think Blackie means it is difficult if not impossible to find objective reporting and if you have doubts about something find the other sides non-objective report and determine the truth for yourself.
Pretty much. It is also interesting to see how each side spins these stories.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072208.html
Last update - 11:20 19/03/2009
Turkish documents prove Arabs own E. Jerusalem building
By Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Israel News, Arab
A document recently uncovered in Ottoman archives in Ankara confirms that Palestinians are the owners of disputed land and houses in East Jerusalem.
If an Israeli court accepts the document's validity, Palestinian families' could be saved from eviction from their homes.
Turkish officials recently helped to trace the document which could end a 30-year-old dispute over the ownership of around 30 buildings in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood.
The Palestinians' attorneys said they were granted access to the archives following the recent souring of the relations between Israel and Turkey.
"Until half a year ago the Turks didn't want to spoil their relations with Israel and were unhelpful," attorney Hatam Abu Ahmed said. "They would put us off with all kinds of excuses. Today their attitude has changed. We felt this change especially after the Gaza operation. Now senior Turkish officials are helping us."
In January, attorney Salah Abu Hussein traveled to Turkey and with the help of local officials found a document proving that the Jews demanding the Palestinians' eviction are not the compound's rightful owners.
The present residents had lived in West Jerusalem before the War of Independence and after becoming refugees were moved to Sheikh Jarrah. In the '70s the Sephardic Leadership in Jerusalem claimed they had purchased the land before the war and produced Turkish documents to that effect.
The courts eventually recognized the Sephardic Leadership's ownership but granted the Palestinians protected tenants' status.
However, the Sephardic Leadership and a group of settlers who moved into the nearby compound have been demanding the Palestinians' eviction, claiming they violated their rental terms.
Over the years, several Palestinian families were evicted and other families moved into their houses. The last eviction took place in November 2008 when the al-Kurd family was evicted from its home and moved into a protest tent near its sealed house. Shortly afterward the father, Mohamed al-Kurd died of an illness.
Throughout the years, the Palestinians claimed that the Jews' ownership documents were forged, but due to the Turks' lack of cooperation they could not prove this and the courts rejected their suits.
Now the attorneys say the Ottoman document proves that the Sephardic Leadership never purchased the compound but only rented it. Another Ottoman document confirms that the document presented by the Jewish party is not authentic.
"There is no trace of the Jewish document in the archive," said Abu Hussein.
The attorneys Wednesday asked the court to withhold eviction procedures against two Palestinian families, on the basis of the Turkish document.
The about face in Turkish policy could have far-reaching implications regarding lands in Israel.
"Now it will be possible to issue ownership deeds. The Turks are very well organized and helpful," Abu Ahmed said.
Attorney Ilan Shemer, who represents the Sephardic Leadership, dismissed the Palestinian attorneys' claims regarding Palestinian ownership of the land.
"It's usually the other side that uses false documents. The document we have is the only authentic ownership deed. Since the hearings began, 50 to 60 judges have heard the case and they all ruled that their claims are false."
Consul meets on house razings
United States Consul General in Jerusalem Jacob Walles met Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat last Thursday to explain American policy toward house demolitions in Jerusalem.
City officials said Walles said the new administration was less tolerant toward the continued demolitions.
Barkat told Walles the demolition orders were for illegally built structures and that the demolitions were not in the mayor's control.
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I have no doubt that there's plenty of blame on both sides. After all, both sides are dogmatic religious fanatics that are led by a state and a state like organization.
US support of either side will only inflame the situation. The only hope that the Israelis have for peace is the establishment of the whole country as a free market zone. Barring the success of that experiment, they should negotiate for free passage and get the hell out of there. Those that choose to remain behind will either adapt to a bleak life under Islamic rule or go down fighting.
If you expect them to be a single democratic government, they can't do that. Because the Jewish elements will be out voted. In a combination state Jews would be the minority. If the West Bank and/or the Gaza were absorbed into Jordan they would be a huge voting block which would demand their own representation and some autonomy. And this is why Jordan doesn't want the territory. It isn't that the Palestinians are bad people it is just they have different views and would want rights which neither Jordan nor Israel wants to allow them to have. You know crazy things like life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
This is why the two state solution would be the best. But then you have right wingers (mostly settlers) in Israel who want to push these people off all the land. Because they think the Gaza and West Bank should be part of Israel minus any non-Jews which is form of genocide. Genocide isn't just killing a group of people. Genocide can also refer to the displacing of people from their land through forced deportment. What the Israeli government is doing to people in Eastern Jerusalem by recognizing false documents of ownership. Documents which are then used as an excuse to remove legitimate owners from their homes.
The territories need to have true autonomy. This means not getting permission from Israel on maters of state. Currently there is no autonomy, the population is considered to be living under an Apartheid system of government. The minority population of Israel is dictating to the people in these territories through force of arms.
I have to make a correction I think Blackie means it is difficult if not impossible to find objective reporting and if you have doubts about something find the other sides non-objective report and determine the truth for yourself. Adding to the difficulty is Israels media blackout on the territories.
A "two state" solution won't work. The "Palistinians" would only be encouraged by this "victory" to try and "liberate" the rest of "Palistine". War would result, bringing about Israeli reoccupation and the whole situation back to square one and an even greater degree of bad blood.
Only the inclusion of all Arabs into an Israeli society, accompanied by radical free market reforms, holds any hope for the culturally ingrained traders instincts that both Arabs and Jews have in common to seduce, in both sides, a desire to get along for the opportunities of profit.
Inclusion doesn't necessarily mean citizenship, just liberty and equality under the law, except for public education and welfare. It's the same as I propose for aliens that immigrate to the USA.
There's no guaranty, of course, that religious zealotry won't derail even that.
I don't hold out much hope for rationality or good will to suddenly take bloom in Palestine, especially with the kind of propagandist hate mongering, like some of the stuff posted here, so hungrily being produced and devoured on both sides. An intelligent Arab or Jew should probably do everything in their power to get out before it's too late.
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A "two state" solution won't work. The "Palistinians" would only be encouraged by this "victory" to try and "liberate" the rest of "Palistine". War would result, bringing about Israeli reoccupation and the whole situation back to square one and an even greater degree of bad blood.
Only the inclusion of all Arabs into an Israeli society, accompanied by radical free market reforms, holds any hope for the culturally ingrained traders instincts that both Arabs and Jews have in common to seduce, in both sides, a desire to get along for the opportunities of profit.
Inclusion doesn't necessarily mean citizenship, just liberty and equality under the law, except for public education and welfare. It's the same as I propose for aliens that immigrate to the USA.
There's no guaranty, of course, that religious zealotry won't derail even that.
I don't hold out much hope for rationality or good will to suddenly take bloom in Palestine, especially with the kind of propagandist hate mongering, like some of the stuff posted here, so hungrily being produced and devoured on both sides. An intelligent Arab or Jew should probably do everything in their power to get out before it's too late.
Are you kidding me, a single state. I don't know if you have noticed but the two sides hate each other. And Israel doesn't tread the Arabs currently living within their borders equally. Israel has it on paper that they are equal but in practice it is a whole different situation. Why do you think they would all of sudden be fair in a single state is beyond me. If they don't give equal rights it is still an apartheid system of minority rule. Yeah, isn't it so nice that they allowed us 2nd class citizen status on our own land. You say in a two state solution it would only encourage Palestinians to declare war. What the hell you think has been going on so far, Sunday socials that just got ugly? A single state solution would just encourage the Israeli militants to expand their genocide on the Palestinian people.
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A "two state" solution won't work. The "Palistinians" would only be encouraged by this "victory" to try and "liberate" the rest of "Palistine". War would result, bringing about Israeli reoccupation and the whole situation back to square one and an even greater degree of bad blood.
Only the inclusion of all Arabs into an Israeli society, accompanied by radical free market reforms, holds any hope for the culturally ingrained traders instincts that both Arabs and Jews have in common to seduce, in both sides, a desire to get along for the opportunities of profit.
Inclusion doesn't necessarily mean citizenship, just liberty and equality under the law, except for public education and welfare. It's the same as I propose for aliens that immigrate to the USA.
There's no guaranty, of course, that religious zealotry won't derail even that.
I don't hold out much hope for rationality or good will to suddenly take bloom in Palestine, especially with the kind of propagandist hate mongering, like some of the stuff posted here, so hungrily being produced and devoured on both sides. An intelligent Arab or Jew should probably do everything in their power to get out before it's too late.
Are you kidding me, a single state. I don't know if you have noticed but the two sides hate each other. And Israel doesn't tread the Arabs currently living within their borders equally. Israel has it on paper that they are equal but in practice it is a whole different situation. Why do you think they would all of sudden be fair in a single state is beyond me. If they don't give equal rights it is still an apartheid system of minority rule. Yeah, isn't it so nice that they allowed us 2nd class citizen status on our own land. You say in a two state solution it would only encourage Palestinians to declare war. What the hell you think has been going on so far, Sunday socials that just got ugly? A single state solution would just encourage the Israeli militants to expand their genocide on the Palestinian people.
You failed to give evidence that a two state solution would work. Two states only guarantee that the Arabs will live under an even more repressive regime that will use the existence of Israel as a diversionary scapegoat for its own shortcomings. You only gave reasons why, under a single state, the Israelis wouldn't be willing to treat the Arabs as equals. Actually, you didn't give the reasons; only your opinion that they wouldn't. I would tend to agree with your opinion, at least until I look at the main reason that wasn't brought up. The possibility of eliminating that reason gives me a small amount of hope:
Isn't it possible that without USSA (United Socialist States of America) backing that the Israelis would feel a greater necessity to get along with their neighbors?
Given the track record of Middle East theocracies, even if all these unlikely pieces of the puzzle fell into place, I still wouldn't be overly optimistic.
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Given the track record of Middle East theocraciesIsrael, even if all these unlikely pieces of the puzzle fell into place, I still wouldn't be overly optimistic.
FTFY
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8144368.stm
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46039000/gif/_46039617_israel_golan_map226.gif)
Israel must stay 'deep in Golan'
The Golan Heights are militarily strategic and a key water source
An aide to Israel's prime minister has said Israel must keep a large part of the Golan Heights, rejecting Syria's major demand for a peace deal.
The previous government held indirect talks with Syria, assumed to be based on returning the Golan Heights, occupied in 1967, in return for peace.
In June, Syrian President Bashar Assad said there was no partner for talks on the Israeli side.
Correspondents say the aide's comments will serve to reinforce this view.
Syria has remained in a state of war with Israel since its 1948 foundation.
Israel took control of the Golan Heights, a strategic mountainous area now popular with Israeli holidaymakers, during the 1967 Six Day War.
'Integral role'
The comments come amid a thaw in relations between the US and Syria.
US President Barack Obama has sent envoys on a series of visits, and Mr Assad recently invited the US president himself to Damascus.
US Middle East envoy George Mitchell recently visited Syria and said Damascus had an "integral role" in finding peace in the region.
But the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stands to the right of his predecessor, Ehud Olmert.
Correspondents say the new government's emerging position makes an Israeli-Syrian deal look unlikely.
"The position is that, if there is a territorial compromise, it is one that still leaves Israel on the Golan Heights and deep into the Golan Heights," the aide, Uzi Arad, said in an interview with Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
He said the Israeli government was willing to resume negotiations with "no prior conditions", but Israeli control of parts of the territory was necessary for "strategic, military and land-settlement reasons... needs of water, wine and landscape".
Syria wants the entire territory back.
The Golan Heights is currently home to about 18,000 Israeli settlers and another 17,000 Druze Arabs loyal to Syria.
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You failed to give evidence that a two state solution would work. Two states only guarantee that the Arabs will live under an even more repressive regime that will use the existence of Israel as a diversionary scapegoat for its own shortcomings. You only gave reasons why, under a single state, the Israelis wouldn't be willing to treat the Arabs as equals. Actually, you didn't give the reasons; only your opinion that they wouldn't. I would tend to agree with your opinion, at least until I look at the main reason that wasn't brought up. The possibility of eliminating that reason gives me a small amount of hope:
Isn't it possible that without USSA (United Socialist States of America) backing that the Israelis would feel a greater necessity to get along with their neighbors?
Given the track record of Middle East theocracies, even if all these unlikely pieces of the puzzle fell into place, I still wouldn't be overly optimistic.
Excuse me but where is your evidence that a single state would work? Have you even been reading any of the articles about the occupation of the West Bank by Israelis an how they treat the native population. I would say that is pretty darn good evidence of the type of treatment which Arabs would receive under and apartheid government. If the Israeli police and courts aren't protecting native Arab populations from settler violence under occupation. Why would anyone be inclined to think it will improve if the situation was made permanent? And how can you provide evidence that a two state situation would work, when that has never been allowed to happen. The Palestinians have never been allowed free autonomy without the harassment of Israel.
Israel carries on a program of blockades or incursions into the territories to kidnap and/or kill Palestinians. Then Israeli authorities act all innocent when the Palestinians retaliate. It is obvious that militant occupation and blockade are only encouraging Palestinians to fight to defend their homes, farms, businesses and lives. They aren't following the genocidal plans to simply abandon their property in the face of Israeli terrorism.
What little amount of political autonomy the Palestinians have currently would not constitute a theocracy. And if it does then Israel would have to considered a Jewish theocracy. So are you saying Jewish theocracies are allowable but Islamic theocracies are not? I would be more inclined to say they are representative governments. And the dominate religion is reflected in the elected government. In order for it to be a real theocracy a religious figure head like the Pope or Chief Rabbinate or Caliph or Dali Lama would act like a King. This hasn't happened in Israel or the Palestinian territories they tend to have mixed representative democratic systems.
There is a place in the world where a two state solution had worked and that was Hong Kong. Communist China wanted that territory for the longest time but it was under the protection of the UK. Which kept Communist China out lest they start a world war. This also kept them from blockading Hong Kong. The prosperity of Hong Kong is what saved them in the end and after years of negotiation they were re-absorbed back into China. China agreed to pretty much let them operate as they had been doing all along. The smart think that China did was to leave Hong Kong alone for the most part. The only element missing in the Palestinian territories is they don't have a super power backing them and their rights up like Hong Kong had in the UK.
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Genocide isn't just killing a group of people. Genocide can also refer to the displacing of people from their land through forced deportment.
Actually, that is quite FALSE. Genocide means the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. Look it up. (Not that I condone displacing people from their land if it is really theirs).
The territories need to have true autonomy. This means not getting permission from Israel on maters of state.
Actually, that too is FALSE. Autonomy means freedom of ruling internal matters such as education, municipal etc., as opposed to state/foreign matters such as security, customs etc. The Palestinians have autonomy since 1998, although Gaza lost it's autonomy to Hamas fundamentalist Islamic regime. Why don't you look up "autonomy" while you are looking up "genocide".
With such lack of basic knowledge, no wonder you support Hamas in the Israeli-Arab conflict. You simply don't know any better, which is why you fall for propaganda on "if-americans-knew" and such.
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You failed to give evidence that a two state solution would work. Two states only guarantee that the Arabs will live under an even more repressive regime that will use the existence of Israel as a diversionary scapegoat for its own shortcomings. You only gave reasons why, under a single state, the Israelis wouldn't be willing to treat the Arabs as equals. Actually, you didn't give the reasons; only your opinion that they wouldn't. I would tend to agree with your opinion, at least until I look at the main reason that wasn't brought up. The possibility of eliminating that reason gives me a small amount of hope:
Isn't it possible that without USSA (United Socialist States of America) backing that the Israelis would feel a greater necessity to get along with their neighbors?
Given the track record of Middle East theocracies, even if all these unlikely pieces of the puzzle fell into place, I still wouldn't be overly optimistic.
Excuse me but where is your evidence that a single state would work?
I have none. I just have faith in the healing power of the free market, but even that is not enough to give me confidence, considering the circumstances.
Have you even been reading any of the articles about the occupation of the West Bank by Israelis an how they treat the native population. I would say that is pretty darn good evidence of the type of treatment which Arabs would receive under and apartheid government.
Not necessarily, especially if they loose USA backing. Then they wouldn't feel they could act in a high handed manner with impunity. Then they may realise that, if they want security and peace, they will also have to offer fairness and justice.
Of course it takes two to have cooperation, but since the Israelis would be in control of the government, they will need to take the first steps, unilaterally, before they could expect cooperation. They would need to be firm with terrorists, but without punishing their families or communities. They would need to open up travel and economic freedom.
And how can you provide evidence that a two state situation would work, when that has never been allowed to happen. The Palestinians have never been allowed free autonomy without the harassment of Israel.
(I'll assume you meant "wouldn't".)
The "Palestinians" have a history of opposition to any Jewish control in the area whatsoever and this hasn't changed. Experiments with autonomy have indicated that a "Palestinian" state would always be at war with Israel as long as there is an Israel. On the other hand, "Palestinian" citizens of Israel, who enjoy infinitely more rights than their brothers, enjoy more freedom than Arabs in most countries and live relatively peaceful and prosperous lives, even though their sentiments are anti Israeli. This demonstrates, at least in theory, that if Israel would treat all people living within its borders with respect for their rights, then peace could be possible.
Israel carries on a program of blockades or incursions into the territories to kidnap and/or kill Palestinians. Then Israeli authorities act all innocent when the Palestinians retaliate. It is obvious that militant occupation and blockade are only encouraging Palestinians to fight to defend their homes, farms, businesses and lives. They aren't following the genocidal plans to simply abandon their property in the face of Israeli terrorism.
Terrorism begets terrorism. The fanatics, on both sides, use this this type of instigation in order to destroy hopes for peace and polarize the populations of both sides, in the hope of a war that both groups of zealots think that they can win.
What little amount of political autonomy the Palestinians have currently would not constitute a theocracy. And if it does then Israel would have to considered a Jewish theocracy. So are you saying Jewish theocracies are allowable but Islamic theocracies are not? I would be more inclined to say they are representative governments. And the dominate religion is reflected in the elected government. In order for it to be a real theocracy a religious figure head like the Pope or Chief Rabbinate or Caliph or Dali Lama would act like a King. This hasn't happened in Israel or the Palestinian territories they tend to have mixed representative democratic systems.
I wasn't being that technical. In the middle east, all the countries are either officially Muslim or Jewish, with the exception of Lebanon, which is officially a combination of Muslim and Christian, so they are casually referred to as theocratic.
There is a place in the world where a two state solution had worked and that was Hong Kong. Communist China wanted that territory for the longest time but it was under the protection of the UK. Which kept Communist China out lest they start a world war. This also kept them from blockading Hong Kong. The prosperity of Hong Kong is what saved them in the end and after years of negotiation they were re-absorbed back into China. China agreed to pretty much let them operate as they had been doing all along. The smart think that China did was to leave Hong Kong alone for the most part. The only element missing in the Palestinian territories is they don't have a super power backing them and their rights up like Hong Kong had in the UK.
That wouldn't then be an independent "Palestinian" state, but a colony of a large western power. It might work. I don't know, but certainly hope that the USA doesn't start a colony in Palestine.
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Of course it takes two to have cooperation, but since the Israelis would be in control of the government, they will need to take the first steps, unilaterally, before they could expect cooperation.
Why would the "Israelis" be in control in a one state solution?
And I assume by "Israelis" you mean Jews.
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Of course it takes two to have cooperation, but since the Israelis would be in control of the government, they will need to take the first steps, unilaterally, before they could expect cooperation.
Why would the "Israelis" be in control in a one state solution?
And I assume by "Israelis" you mean Jews.
Sure. They could always surrender and be slaughtered or negotiate a safe exodus.
I would favor the latter.
Those are the only possibilities of a non-Israeli one state solution. Good luck!
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Why do you use "Israelis" and Jews interchangeably?
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(http://www.thedemolitiondj.nl/images/atom-bomb-orange2.gif)
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Genocide isn't just killing a group of people. Genocide can also refer to the displacing of people from their land through forced deportment.
Actually, that is quite FALSE. Genocide means the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. Look it up. (Not that I condone displacing people from their land if it is really theirs).
The territories need to have true autonomy. This means not getting permission from Israel on maters of state.
Actually, that too is FALSE. Autonomy means freedom of ruling internal matters such as education, municipal etc., as opposed to state/foreign matters such as security, customs etc. The Palestinians have autonomy since 1998, although Gaza lost it's autonomy to Hamas fundamentalist Islamic regime. Why don't you look up "autonomy" while you are looking up "genocide".
With such lack of basic knowledge, no wonder you support Hamas in the Israeli-Arab conflict. You simply don't know any better, which is why you fall for propaganda on "if-americans-knew" and such.
No there are other schools of thought on genocide being the deliberate displacement of a culture from their land. Such as the Israeli scorched earth destruction of 500 Palestinian villages. Many of the Palestinians were killed during this process and thousands of others were made refugees. You are probably too young to remember and the rewriting of history as told in Israel has blinded you to those facts. If Darfur is considered an act of genocide by the destruction of villages killing many of the inhabitants and making millions of others refugees into Chad. Then the Palestinian refugees can be considered victims as well. Sorry, but genocide isn't just herding people into concentration camps and systematically killing them like you would want people to believe.
You are wrong again Palestinians do not have autonomy, they are occupied territories. They aren't even allowed to determine their own building codes for example. They have settlers and a foreign police force. That isn't autonomy that is occupation. Maybe you are the one who should look up autonomy.
Israel's Slow-Motion Genocide in Occupied Palestine
by Stephen Lendman
Wednesday, 26 November 2008
Imagine life under these conditions:
Living in limbo under a foreign occupier. Having no self-determination, no right of return, and no power over your daily life. Being in constant fear, economically strangled, and collectively punished.
Having your free movement denied by enclosed population centers, closed borders, regular curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, electric fences, and separation walls. Having your homes regularly demolished and land systematically stolen to build settlements for encroachers in violation of international law prohibiting an occupier from settling its population on conquered land.
Having your right to essential services denied - to emergency health care, education, employment, and enough food and clean water. Being forced into extreme poverty, having your crops destroyed, and being victimized by punitive taxes. Having no right for redress in the occupier's courts under laws only protecting the occupier.
http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/112608Lendman.shtml (http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/112608Lendman.shtml)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8144368.stm
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46039000/gif/_46039617_israel_golan_map226.gif)
Israel must stay 'deep in Golan'
The Golan Heights are militarily strategic and a key water source
An aide to Israel's prime minister has said Israel must keep a large part of the Golan Heights, rejecting Syria's major demand for a peace deal.
The previous government held indirect talks with Syria, assumed to be based on returning the Golan Heights, occupied in 1967, in return for peace.
In June, Syrian President Bashar Assad said there was no partner for talks on the Israeli side.
Correspondents say the aide's comments will serve to reinforce this view.
Syria has remained in a state of war with Israel since its 1948 foundation.
Israel took control of the Golan Heights, a strategic mountainous area now popular with Israeli holidaymakers, during the 1967 Six Day War.
'Integral role'
The comments come amid a thaw in relations between the US and Syria.
US President Barack Obama has sent envoys on a series of visits, and Mr Assad recently invited the US president himself to Damascus.
US Middle East envoy George Mitchell recently visited Syria and said Damascus had an "integral role" in finding peace in the region.
But the government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stands to the right of his predecessor, Ehud Olmert.
Correspondents say the new government's emerging position makes an Israeli-Syrian deal look unlikely.
"The position is that, if there is a territorial compromise, it is one that still leaves Israel on the Golan Heights and deep into the Golan Heights," the aide, Uzi Arad, said in an interview with Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
He said the Israeli government was willing to resume negotiations with "no prior conditions", but Israeli control of parts of the territory was necessary for "strategic, military and land-settlement reasons... needs of water, wine and landscape".
Syria wants the entire territory back.
The Golan Heights is currently home to about 18,000 Israeli settlers and another 17,000 Druze Arabs loyal to Syria.
I don't agree at all with that report. First of all Druze are not Arabs (try calling a Druze "Arab" and see what he thinks of it). Second, the Druze are not loyal to Syria. Druze live in Lebanon, Israel, and Syria. Druze religion commands them to be loyal to the regime which they live in (very smart on part of their religion as it has kept their communities alive for many hundreds of years). Accordingly, many Druze serve in the Israeli military, there are even a few high-ranking Druze officers in the IDF. The Druze community has a unique tie with Israel.
Hence there is no refugee problem in the Golan, nobody claiming their land was stolen and they are oppressed. The Golan Heights is a very simple issue - it is Syria haggling over land in return for peace. In 1967 Syria Egypt and Jordan massed up their armies along the border with Israel in their second attempt to destroy Israel. Unfortunately for Syria not only did they fail, but Israel conquered the Golan Heights. Syria refused to acknowledge Israel after the w67 war and make peace, hence the Golan remained in Israeli hands.
The fact that Israel's ownership of the Golan is not recognized internationally is irrelevant - once there is a peace agreement the intl. community will recognize the border as agreed upon between the two sides. The Golan issue is simply a matter of Syria trying to make demands in return for peace, and in my opinion there is absolutely zero justification to give the Golan back to Syria. Peace should be given in return for peace.
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I'm late to this thread. My apologies in advance for bringing up anything already debated and disposed of.
From what I understand, the Zionists first came to palestine at a time when it was nearly empty wasteland, unwanted by anyone else, buying large tracts of land from Turkish land holders of the Ottoman Empire. The whole concept of it being a Palestinian homeland or that there is even a Palestinian people is a modern myth.
The new Jewish landlords had ambitious goals, but few Jews to help them carry out those goals and so they hired Arabs from the surrounding lands to work their farms. The so called Palestinians are actually Arab immigrants who were paid to immigrate by the Jews.
If the Zionists wanted an undisputed Jewish homeland, then this was a serious mistake. Whether or not the Arabs who moved to Palestine have a so called "cultural claim" to this land is irrelevant. They came for peaceful purposes and have as much right to the homes and businesses that they built as any Jewish settler.
There is a history of injustices on both sides that have been motivated by ethnic and theological irrationality, hatreds and fear. At first it was Arab riots against Jewish immigration that started the cycle of violence and both justified as well as unjustified retaliation.
Today the situation is not much different. Theologically motivated terrorists intentionally provoke Jewish fears and collectivist retaliation in order to divide palestine into the two waring camps of the Israelis and the "Palestinians".
If the Israelis are to have any hope of peace, they need to put an end to collectivist punishment and to respect the property rights of "Palestinians". This would allow the healing effects of the free market and voluntary cooperation to help bring them toward greater mutual respect and empathy. I don't know if it's too late for this, considering pain each group has suffered at the hands of the other, as well as the intense level of theological and ethnic fanaticism of that region and the interference of many foreign nation states and their evil machinations.
I agree with basically everything you said, up until this part:
An intelligent Israeli should probably just leave and let the Arabs fight among themselves. It's not worth the trouble.
Why should Israelis want to tuck their tail between their legs and leave their homeland that has also been their cultural legacy for thousands of years? On the contrary, Jews immigrate to Israel constantly, there was a huge wave of Jewish immigration to Israel in the 90s following the collapse of the USSR.
And even if an Israeli wants to leave? Where would he/she leave to?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8144368.stm
I don't agree at all with that report.
It's from one of the sources you say you like, the BBC.
First of all Druze are not Arabs (try calling a Druze "Arab" and see what he thinks of it). Second, the Druze are not loyal to Syria. Druze live in Lebanon, Israel, and Syria. Druze religion commands them to be loyal to the regime which they live in (very smart on part of their religion as it has kept their communities alive for many hundreds of years). Accordingly, many Druze serve in the Israeli military, there are even a few high-ranking Druze officers in the IDF. The Druze community has a unique tie with Israel.
Good one. Not all Druze in Israel have the same status. The article is talking only about the Druze in the Golan region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze
A minority of the Druze in the Golan region controlled by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967 and officially annexed by Israel in 1981, have a separate legal status from those in the Galilee region, and are considered permanent residents under the Golan Heights Law of 1981. Few of them have accepted full Israeli citizenship, and the majority are citizens of Syria.[35] Druze in the Golan are not drafted into the Israeli army (although a minority serve voluntarily) and many travel to Syria regularly to visit family or receive university degrees in Damascus. A year after Israel annexed the Golan, on April 14, 1982, the Druze communities around Mt. Hermon launched a six-month non-violent general strike in protest of Israel's annexation of the Golan.
The rest of the Druze population are citizens of Israel.
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Why do you use "Israelis" and Jews interchangeably?
Israel has Judaism as its official state religion. Not all Jews are Israelis, but the Israeli state represents, collectively, the Jews of Israel and gives automatic citizenship to any Jews in the world that wish to have it.
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Why do you use "Israelis" and Jews interchangeably?
Israel has Judaism as its official state religion.
No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion
At present, there is no specific law or official statement establishing the Jewish religion as the state's religion.
Not all Jews are Israelis, but the Israeli state represents, collectively, the Jews of Israel and gives automatic citizenship to any Jews in the world that wish to have it.
But not all "Israelis" are Jews. So it is incorrect to use "Israelis" and Jews interchangeably.
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I'm late to this thread. My apologies in advance for bringing up anything already debated and disposed of.
From what I understand, the Zionists first came to palestine at a time when it was nearly empty wasteland, unwanted by anyone else, buying large tracts of land from Turkish land holders of the Ottoman Empire. The whole concept of it being a Palestinian homeland or that there is even a Palestinian people is a modern myth.
The new Jewish landlords had ambitious goals, but few Jews to help them carry out those goals and so they hired Arabs from the surrounding lands to work their farms. The so called Palestinians are actually Arab immigrants who were paid to immigrate by the Jews.
If the Zionists wanted an undisputed Jewish homeland, then this was a serious mistake. Whether or not the Arabs who moved to Palestine have a so called "cultural claim" to this land is irrelevant. They came for peaceful purposes and have as much right to the homes and businesses that they built as any Jewish settler.
There is a history of injustices on both sides that have been motivated by ethnic and theological irrationality, hatreds and fear. At first it was Arab riots against Jewish immigration that started the cycle of violence and both justified as well as unjustified retaliation.
Today the situation is not much different. Theologically motivated terrorists intentionally provoke Jewish fears and collectivist retaliation in order to divide palestine into the two waring camps of the Israelis and the "Palestinians".
If the Israelis are to have any hope of peace, they need to put an end to collectivist punishment and to respect the property rights of "Palestinians". This would allow the healing effects of the free market and voluntary cooperation to help bring them toward greater mutual respect and empathy. I don't know if it's too late for this, considering pain each group has suffered at the hands of the other, as well as the intense level of theological and ethnic fanaticism of that region and the interference of many foreign nation states and their evil machinations.
I agree with basically everything you said, up until this part:
An intelligent Israeli should probably just leave and let the Arabs fight among themselves. It's not worth the trouble.
Why should Israelis want to tuck their tail between their legs and leave their homeland that has also been their cultural legacy for thousands of years? On the contrary, Jews immigrate to Israel constantly, there was a huge wave of Jewish immigration to Israel in the 90s following the collapse of the USSR.
And even if an Israeli wants to leave? Where would he/she leave to?
If you value dogmatic beliefs above you and your loved one's lives and happiness, then stay and fight to the bitter end.
Many Israelis have found ways to leave.
If Zionists were looking for a sanctuary for persecuted Jews, then Palestine, while it may have been the correct choice theologically, was one of the worst choices, from a practical standpoint. Also: Populating Palestine with immigrant Arabs to work their lands was shortsighted, to say the least. Once people come to live and make a life, you cannot simply throw them out.
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Why do you use "Israelis" and Jews interchangeably?
Israel has Judaism as its official state religion.
No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion
At present, there is no specific law or official statement establishing the Jewish religion as the state's religion.
Not all Jews are Israelis, but the Israeli state represents, collectively, the Jews of Israel and gives automatic citizenship to any Jews in the world that wish to have it.
But not all "Israelis" are Jews. So it is incorrect to use "Israelis" and Jews interchangeably.
That seems to be more of a technicality having to do with how you define "Jew". In that sense, you may be correct, in which case you might say, "Israel has Jewish as its official state ethnicity.".
That Israel tolerates non-Jews, doesn't change the fact that its policies and actions are controlled by Israeli Jews.
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Once people come to live and make a life, you cannot simply throw them out.
Yeah, you have to kill them.
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Once people come to live and make a life, you cannot simply throw them out.
Yeah, you have to kill them.
You could also learn how to live with them or if you find no way to get along with them, then you could always move.
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Once people come to live and make a life, you cannot simply throw them out.
Yeah, you have to kill them.
You could also learn how to live with them or if you find no way to get along with them, then you could always move.
You are the one that thinks they can't learn to live together. The Jews aren't going anywhere.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8144368.stm
I don't agree at all with that report.
It's from one of the sources you say you like, the BBC.
Just to set the record straight, BBC does not rank very high in my book, although it is true that I don't dismiss BBC as one-sided propaganda. Even so, I can still disagree with a certain piece.
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Actually, there is an example of a fairly successful two state solution. Ireland was occupied by the British for hundreds of years. The major argument against Irish independence was that the protestant settlers who were in the minority would be persecuted or murdered. Another argument was if Southern Ireland was allowed to become a free country. This would only encourage the IRA to attack Northern Ireland which remains under British control.
Now while there has been some fighting and terrorism which is usually perpetrated by zealots on both sides. Over all Southern Ireland has prospered and the Protestants there are not nearly as oppressed as Catholics had been under British rule. Once Britain decided to pull out they didn't blockade Southern Ireland or continue a program of colonization and occupation. This made it possible for Ireland to become arguably the most prosperous countries in Europe.
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Actually, there is an example of a fairly successful two state solution. Ireland was occupied by the British for hundreds of years. The major argument against Irish independence was that the protestant settlers who were in the minority would be persecuted or murdered. Another argument was if Southern Ireland was allowed to become a free country. This would only encourage the IRA to attack Northern Ireland which remains under British control.
Now while there has been some fighting and terrorism which is usually perpetrated by zealots on both sides. Over all Southern Ireland has prospered and the Protestants there are not nearly as oppressed as Catholics had been under British rule. Once Britain decided to pull out they didn't blockade Southern Ireland or continue a program of colonization and occupation. This made it possible for Ireland to become arguably the most prosperous countries in Europe.
Wouldn't northern Ireland be analogous to Hong Kong, but without its free market economy and wouldn't southern Ireland be analogous to mainland china, but without the communism?
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Actually, there is an example of a fairly successful two state solution. Ireland was occupied by the British for hundreds of years. The major argument against Irish independence was that the protestant settlers who were in the minority would be persecuted or murdered. Another argument was if Southern Ireland was allowed to become a free country. This would only encourage the IRA to attack Northern Ireland which remains under British control.
Now while there has been some fighting and terrorism which is usually perpetrated by zealots on both sides. Over all Southern Ireland has prospered and the Protestants there are not nearly as oppressed as Catholics had been under British rule. Once Britain decided to pull out they didn't blockade Southern Ireland or continue a program of colonization and occupation. This made it possible for Ireland to become arguably the most prosperous countries in Europe.
Wouldn't northern Ireland be analogous to Hong Kong, but without its free market economy and wouldn't southern Ireland be analogous to mainland china, but without the communism?
I wouldn't agree that is the case. Britain invaded Ireland, took it and started to colonize it with British Protestant settlers. The native population which was in the majority were treated like second class citizens and displaced of their lands. However, after several generations the protestants were established in significant numbers in the Northern counties. And that population was used to establish the divide of the land once a two state solution was reached. Several of the Protestants in southern Ireland chose to move to Northern Ireland and the protection of the British. But some decided to stay in southern Ireland.
If you read anything about the potato blight and resulting starvation has been considered by some an act of genocide on the Catholic population. This is from the Irish perspective and their argument for the Irish holocaust http://www.irishholocaust.org/britain%27scoverup (http://www.irishholocaust.org/britain%27scoverup)
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My point wasn't to say that their histories parallel one another, but that they are both examples of a state and colony, instead of a two state situation.
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Bibi signs off on plan to evacuate outposts
July 21, 2009
JERUSALEM (JTA) -- The Israel Defense Forces is formulating a plan to evacuate two dozen illegal outposts in one day, an Israeli newspaper reported.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has approved the idea for the plan to evacuate the 23 outposts built after March 2001, the daily Ha'aretz reported Tuesday.
A joint exercise to prepare for the planned evacuation took place last week and was carried out by the Border Police, the police and the IDF, according to Ha'aretz.
The IDF told Ha'aretz that it was keeping the preparations for the evacuation as vague as possible except to upper echelon leaders to prevent soldiers who "identify with the settlers" from leaking the plans to them.
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http://www.smh.com.au/world/masked-settlers-go-on-rampage-after-army-moves-in-20090724-dw75.html
Masked settlers go on rampage after army moves in
Jason Koutsoukis Herald Correspondent in Jerusalem
July 25, 2009
LAST Monday started out with troops of the Israeli Defence Forces demolishing a single caravan from a lonely hilltop in the north of the West Bank.
Not large enough to be properly termed an illegal settler outpost, the site known as Adei Ad looked like home to a handful of dishevelled campers. But even though their campsite had been set up on land owned by Palestinians and was considered illegal under Israeli law, the caravan's demolition had violent consequences.
Settlers from the nearby outpost of Kedumim quickly thronged to the site to protest against the defence forces' actions, throwing stones and lightly injuring one soldier. News that the defence forces had also removed a few shacks from the illegal settlement outpost Nofei Yarden, and several containers from another outpost, Mitzpe Danny, only added to the tension.
A group of 15 masked settlers appeared on the highway to Nablus, hurling stones at the passing Palestinian traffic.
An army spokesman said later that five suspects had been arrested and that the defence forces viewed with gravity "all expressions of violence, law-breaking, disruptions of public order and damage to people and property".
It is no wonder that news of the defence forces' movements in the West Bank spread quickly. Walk through any Jewish settlement in the West Bank and it is hard to miss the green posters covering almost every public space.
"Do you know about an upcoming evacuation?" read the signs, in Hebrew. "Call the outpost operations centre."
Were the defence forces' actions at the three small outposts a sign that it was finally moving to deliver on five years of promises to the US to evacuate 23 larger illegal outposts?
Some activists at Qiryat Arba, a Jewish settlement near the ancient city of Hebron, did not wait to find out.
Masked settlers on horseback went on the rampage, setting fire to hundreds of Palestinian olive trees, using machetes to damage hundreds more trees. Ten Palestinian cars were set on fire.
The next day, Tuesday, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published a story on its front page saying that the defence forces were ready to evacuate all 23 illegal outposts in a single day.
After seeing that report, eight settlers from Yitzhar, in the northern West Bank, donned masks and decided to attack the Palestinian village of Burin. About 30 ancient olives trees were uprooted, and hundreds more damaged, as the mob ran riot through the olive groves.
"This is where the real hatred is," said one Israeli soldier who spoke to the Herald on condition of anonymity. "We cannot enter the outposts safely to talk to anyone about calming things down or about not using violence."
One settler activist, Meir Bartler, who belongs to the movement Land of Israel Loyalists and is a resident of the hilltops in the Shilo area, near Nablus, said settlers were not to blame for the violence. "We are just responding to provocation from the Palestinians, who invade our homes, set fire to our holy books, and are trying to disrupt peace. As for the [defence forces], they are using force against us. We are defending our homes."
Another settler activist, Itamar Ben Gvir, who works as assistant to Michael Ben-Ari, a member of the Knesset from the extreme right-wing National Union party, said all of the areas of Judea and Samaria - as he refers to the West Bank - were on alert and warned that blood would be spilled.
"The IDF are using excessive force against innocent people," Mr Ben Gvir said. "People here do not understand how the Government of the state of Israel can attack its own people."
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Masked settlers go on rampage after army moves in
The reason these settlers are confused is because they are probably Lukid party members and since the Lukid party won the election they thought that the agreed separation wouldn't occur. Why would they think that? Just read the Charter for the Lukid party and you will have your answer. In spite of what their Prime Minister says, his party as part of their charter sees both the Gaza and the West Bank as being Israeli territory and that Palestinians have no rights. If Palestinians defend their territory they are labeled terrorist. But these obvious invaders (settlers) have been given special status and military protections. Something to which the settlers have become accustomed. So when Israel actually follows through with its agreement to remove squatter camps they blame the Palestinians. They can't process that the political party which they elected with a charter to colonize and displace native inhabitants could possibly be behind their squatter camp removals.
So the settlers go on a rampage demolishing homes and farms of Palestinians which are obvious acts of terrorism. What does the IDF do, it sits back and watches the mayhem. There is no protection of Palestinians from these acts of terrorism. You can be sure if a group of masked Palestinians had invaded Israeli territory and destroyed crops and homes of Israelis there would be thousands of dead Palestinians from either IDF ground troops or bombings. But when the terrorism is perpetuated by these settler squatters nothing is done not even arrests of the guilty parties. And if they do arrest a token few they will get a slap on the wrist and the Palestinians will not be compensated for the damage done by these acts of terrorism. In fact you can already see it in the end of the article Israelis will be blaming the victims.
You might ask yourself why didn't the Palestinians fight back against these masked settlers. Because if they had defended their property and homes the IDF and the settlers would have tried to claim in some way they were responsible for the violence. Any Palestinian fighting to protect their property would have been cut down by the IDF sharpshooters. People are suppose to believe the IDF was helpless to stop the masked rampage. It is a load of crap they did nothing because of their own bias in favor of the masked settler terrorist.
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The whole concept of it being a Palestinian homeland or that there is even a Palestinian people is a modern myth.
Bulllshit, this is the common Zionist revisonist history that dehumanizes 8 million people into cattle. There is not a shred of reality to it.
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Cattle? Where did you get that from?
So, if "Palestinians" existed prior to 1948, then what was their language, cuisine, art, or history?
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So they never existed they were what? Ghosts? Your revisionists maps and inaccurate history is meant to dehumanize people. Its why your so hated and rightfully so. Common American ignorance. If its not NASCAR its evil huh? Pathetic.
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So they never existed they were what? Ghosts?
no....just angry arabs
nomads
bedouins
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You dumbshit inbreads woul'dnt know an Arab from a Greek.
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You dumbshit inbreads woul'dnt know an Arab from a Greek.
the arabs are the ones w/ the bomb belts & vests (and that ''smell'')
the greeks are the ones w/ the pizza/sub shops
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They exist they always have they are humans. Far more human the most in America. They've always been then there. Your thieving murderous ways against the Native Americans are in excusable and they do not set precedent for your Khazar masters to be able to thieve from the Palestinians like two bit niggers robbing the 7-11.
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First off, niggers don't rob 7-11's, we rob White Hen Pantry's bitch.
And lets not forget how those "human" Arabs known as the Ottoman Turks cut a bloody and murderous fucking path through Europe...
Know all of history, not just the parts you like to defend your argument. Both sides are guilty of being fucking cannibals all in the name of some imaginary being, so STFU and go waste more of your life praying about it.
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Your fucked up bullshit revisionist history doesn't justify paying kikes to steel shit. Not to mention killing babies. Don't give me your sob story's about history you clearly are to fucking stupid to know when you obviously not raised human en ought yo care about other humans . Go back to the white hen you filthy nigger.
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Your thieving murderous ways against the Native Americans are in excusable
motherfucker's like you always single out the white man, w/ the native american card.
the spaniards killed far mor ''native americans'' than whitey.
so, they traded manhattan for a bunch of fucking trinkets & a few sheckles....
tuff tits
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Your fucked up bullshit revisionist history doesn't justify paying kikes to steel shit. Not to mention killing babies. Don't give me your sob story's about history you clearly are to fucking stupid to know when you obviously not raised human en ought yo care about other humans . Go back to the white hen you filthy nigger.
wow, another angry arab cunt that can't spell.....
what are the odds?
go blow yourself up, martyr
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Your thieving murderous ways against the Native Americans are in excusable
motherfucker's like you always single out the white man, w/ the native american card.
the spaniards killed far mor ''native americans'' than whitey.
so, they traded manhattan for a bunch of fucking trinkets & a few sheckles....
tuff tits
Do you want to continue handling this or can I take over on this jackass?
Please? Pretty please?
Not to say you aren't doing a good job, which you are, BTW.
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Do you want to continue handling this or can I take over on this jackass?
Please? Pretty please?
Not to say you aren't doing a good job, which you are, BTW.
by all means, my good man, have at
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The best and worst thing about the internet is xowqard fucks like these duicksuckers voice the opinions they dont have th balls to say in real life. Whats sad is you see what absolute worthless fucking animals most Americans truly are. It amazes me so many of you are truly confused about why the rest of humanity is sickened by you.
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Your revisonist hisotry is meaningless it doesnt change the facts. You cna live in your world of delusions, your still violent ignorant animals.
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The best and worst thing about the internet is xowqard fucks like these duicksuckers voice the opinions they dont have th balls to say in real life. Whats sad is you see what absolute worthless fucking animals most Americans truly are. It amazes me so many of you are truly confused about why the rest of humanity is sickened by you.
So what, let me get this straight...
Arbas hate it when we clump you all together as bomb wearing camel jockey jihadist loving hate spewing 7-11 working warmongers,
but its okay to group all Americans together (which has FARRRR more genetic and ethnic diversity in any 10 square miles then any 100 square miles in the middle east?
Are you secretly a Republican?
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It amazes me so many of you are truly confused about why the rest of humanity is sickened by you.
...and that's why there's and ENDLESS FUCKING CONGA-LINE, killing themselves to get into this country, you ignorant twat.....no ''revisionistic'' tale there...FACT
and what paradise doth thou hail from?
i'm betting it's a 3rd-worlder cesspool, that you & yours are scrambling to evacuate....24 hours a day
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Like the stupid immature chidlren you are, But but they did this but but they did it first. Your simply not capable of civiised human thought. Fucking stupid cavemen and and equally stupid spear chucker.
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Like the stupid immature chidlren you are, But but they did this but but they did it first. Your simply not capable of civiised human thought. Fucking stupid cavemen and and equally stupid spear chucker.
And how many people are waiting line for a green card to ANY country in the middle east???
Exactly.
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There is no excuse you fucking turdsd can give to jsutify your murder and money flowing to these baby killers. You are to balme and deserve all you recive for pridefully supporting genocide.
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There is no excuse you fucking turdsd can give to jsutify your murder and money flowing to these baby killers. You are to balme and deserve all you recive for pridefully supporting genocide.
I personally have never supported genocide. To say I do is disingenuous to your argument, as is your lack of spelling. I've been to Iraq, and one thing I saw that ONLY your people are capable of (and Mexicans, to a lesser extent) is to take a small child, kill them, cut open their chest and remove all the major organs, stick a soundbox and bomb in their bodies, and leave it so that a patrol will find them, hear the crying from the soundbox, and blow them up, all for having SYMPATHY on their fellow man. To play on someone else's sympathy and kill them for it is a low ONLY achieved in modern times by YOUR people. Fix your people before you even try to come at someone elses.
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Theres nothing here that changes your murderous ways. Lies ignorance and hatred. The fact your fucking psycho inbred motherfuckers find words scary and find joy in crushed baby skulls proove this society isnt all that far from its Serial killers. Your all sub human shit
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Theres nothing here that changes your murderous ways. Lies ignorance and hatred. The fact your fucking psycho inbred motherfuckers find words scary and find joy in crushed baby skulls proove this society isnt all that far from its Serial killers. Your all sub human shit
Proof that I like crushed baby skulls or it didn't happen.
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Cattle? Where did you get that from?
So, if "Palestinians" existed prior to 1948, then what was their language, cuisine, art, or history?
Palestinian language is an Aramaic dialect. There cuisine is influence heavily by Turkish cuisine so it differs from typical Arab cuisine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_cuisine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_cuisine). The dome of the rock is an excellent example of mosaic art built in 687 AD. Palestine was the informal designation for the territory ruled by Turkey for 400 years. Palestine wasn't made an official designation until the British took over after 1917.
Demographics of Historic Palestine Prior to 1948
Ever since the founding of the Zionist movement, supporters of Zionism have downplayed the fact that historic Palestine had always had a healthy indigenous population. Zionists trumpeted the falsehood widely: "A land without a people, for a people without a land." While this slogan encouraged Jewish emigration to historic Palestine, it also paved the way for one of the largest dispossessions in modern history. Both the demographics statistics themselves, as well as the history of Jewish emigration to Palestine in the 1930s tell and important story.
More: http://www.cjpme.ca/documents/En%20Demographics%20Factsheet%20v.1.pdf (http://www.cjpme.ca/documents/En%20Demographics%20Factsheet%20v.1.pdf)
Here is a link to a map of Palestine from 1570 http://www.mapsorama.com/map-of-palestine-in-16th-century/ (http://www.mapsorama.com/map-of-palestine-in-16th-century/)
The map makers in 1849 seemed to recognize there was a Palestine http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg) Some of the villages which were represented on these maps, the inhabitants were either murdered or driven off then the town was demolished and erased from future maps or given new Jewish names.
Another map from 1835 of Palestine http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~3287~400104:Palestine-or-the-Holy-Land,-Or-the- (http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~3287~400104:Palestine-or-the-Holy-Land,-Or-the-)
There were always indigenous people who were living in the cities, towns and villages on the historic maps. Just because the people didn't have political autonomy didn't make them non-existent.
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Cattle? Where did you get that from?
So, if "Palestinians" existed prior to 1948, then what was their language, cuisine, art, or history?
Palestinian language is an Aramaic dialect. There cuisine is influence heavily by Turkish cuisine so it differs from typical Arab cuisine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_cuisine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_cuisine). The dome of the rock is an excellent example of mosaic art built in 687 AD. Palestine was the informal designation for the territory ruled by Turkey for 400 years. Palestine wasn't made an official designation until the British took over after 1917.
Demographics of Historic Palestine Prior to 1948
Ever since the founding of the Zionist movement, supporters of Zionism have downplayed the fact that historic Palestine had always had a healthy indigenous population. Zionists trumpeted the falsehood widely: "A land without a people, for a people without a land." While this slogan encouraged Jewish emigration to historic Palestine, it also paved the way for one of the largest dispossessions in modern history. Both the demographics statistics themselves, as well as the history of Jewish emigration to Palestine in the 1930s tell and important story.
More: http://www.cjpme.ca/documents/En%20Demographics%20Factsheet%20v.1.pdf (http://www.cjpme.ca/documents/En%20Demographics%20Factsheet%20v.1.pdf)
Here is a link to a map of Palestine from 1570 http://www.mapsorama.com/map-of-palestine-in-16th-century/ (http://www.mapsorama.com/map-of-palestine-in-16th-century/)
The map makers in 1849 seemed to recognize there was a Palestine http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg) Some of the villages which were represented on these maps, the inhabitants were either murdered or driven off then the town was demolished and erased from future maps or given new Jewish names.
Another map from 1835 of Palestine http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~3287~400104:Palestine-or-the-Holy-Land,-Or-the- (http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~3287~400104:Palestine-or-the-Holy-Land,-Or-the-)
There were always indigenous people who were living in the cities, towns and villages on the historic maps. Just because the people didn't have political autonomy didn't make them non-existent.
The tl;dr summary:
Just because white people didn't draw it on maps and make it known doesn't mean it didn't exist. Just because I don't have my name on a chair that I have owned for 3 years doesn't make it any less mine when you decide you want to sit in it.
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Liberty says it nicely. but the reality is still the same these animals want to de humanize others inot CATTLE to justify the illegal crimes commited with full US support. Acts of genocide and tyranny. While you ignorant shits babble about freedom and jusitice. disgusting.
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And you silly little bitch you jsut cant stop justifying theft and murder through actiojns of others. You dumb ass nigger.
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Byt you stupid motherfuckers logic your sothern border in retreat. Cede South Texas to the Mecicans. They are there so now its their land. Dumbfuck's. Easy to give a way somebosy else life when your cozy in the US. Why should you give a fuck how many babies die. Why should we next time your buildings fall. We wont. You deserve it.
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Byt you stupid motherfuckers logic your sothern border in retreat. Cede South Texas to the Mecicans. They are there so now its their land. Dumbfuck's. Easy to give a way somebosy else life when your cozy in the US. Why should you give a fuck how many babies die. Why should we next time your buildings fall. We wont. You deserve it.
Prove I believe in any of that bullshit you said or you are full of shit.
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Well when somebdy you love(if your even capable of emotion) dies perhaps being shown the same indifference and inhuamnity as you do. Youll finally figure it out.
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Theres nothing here that changes your murderous ways. Lies ignorance and hatred. The fact your fucking psycho inbred motherfuckers find words scary and find joy in crushed baby skulls proove this society isnt all that far from its Serial killers. Your all sub human shit
this, from a group of subhumans that eagerly kills its own children in the name of allah. that would rather sacrifice its children to kill a few jews, than be normal members of the human race.
you people go into a murderous rage if someone draws a fucking cartoon of allah, and you have the balls to call us cavemen?
you camel-fucking ape...(fuck camels, cuz your women are uglier than festering sores, ...thats why you really keep them covered up)
go shit in your falafel
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Stop ruining my thread.
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See this is why your just a stupid fucking inbred. You make and assumption, Im as white as sheet. I am not religious at all. I dispise all reliigion. And your still the fuilthy fucking murderous pig that makles excuses for Genocide by saying. BUt they....But but but. Like some 4 year old.
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See this is why your just a stupid fucking inbred. You make and assumption, Im as white as sheet. I am not religious at all. I dispise all reliigion. And your still the fuilthy fucking murderous pig that makles excuses for Genocide by saying. BUt they....But but but. Like some 4 year old.
you spell like a fucking foreigner, douchebag
you are a fucking arabic cocksucker, i suspect
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Deflecting away from Kikes murder by pointing at people you say dont even fuckign exist is just the cheap excuses fabricatred by a childs mind. Junior, if everybody jumped off the cliff would you too?" Fucking idiots.
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STOP RUINING MY THREAD.
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Who the fuck are you? Kim Il Sung? You want to moderate a foum your in the wrong place
http://www.freeforums.org/ try that napolean
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Who the fuck are you? Kim Il Sung? You want to moderate a foum your in the wrong place
http://www.freeforums.org/ try that napolean
This thread is in the Hijack-Free Zone. I started the thread. If I didn't delete and re-create my account, I would be deleting posts right now.
Go fuck up this thread, it has the same title "Israeli settlers are terrorists"
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=30150.0
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quit your crying, Uncle Joe, its free country
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Blackie WHY???? :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: did you delete your account?
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I do it every once in a while, just because.
There is only one post worth keeping since page 14.
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It's all so stupid. If I had ONE WISH, it would be for religion to evaporate from people's minds, including that of the state.
HERE HERE
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So all this bullshit about this place being a free sppech thing is a joke. Any litlte whininey fuck can cecor you. fucking idiocy. this is the second cencor based forum that claims free speech. LIES
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So all this bullshit about this place being a free sppech thing is a joke. Any litlte whininey fuck can cecor you. fucking idiocy. this is the second cencor based forum that claims free speech. LIES
I blame the Jews.
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Also liek every other fourm liktle tyrants must insnist on controliing other posters when all they have to do is ignore. What part of Freedom dont you understand? Nothing is hi jacked, thats simply a phrase for, I dont like whats said. A person made a commmon mythical remark about 8 million poeple being some ghost. Then ignorant inbreds show there inhuman indifference to suffering. Whats out of the ordinary and distrubing is not my response but the lack of similar responces by others. Its sad statement that so many have so little concern, or reaction to death.
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Whatever
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There are plenty of Dictatorial forums. If you insist on controlling opinions and expression, perhaps the Sean hannity blog is more your speed.
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This new guy has got to be a joke.
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Oh fuck you. A joke is you filthy racistrs pigs casting away 8 million people as disposible cause you dont how they like their food cooked.
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Oh fuck you. A joke is you filthy racistrs pigs casting away 8 million people as disposible cause you dont how they like their food cooked.
A better joke is your "education".
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Oh the kiddy is going for the typos? Yes thats the real sign of inteligence. You fucking idiot. your made up hisotry and racism is the bastion of higher education huh? Eat shit.
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And I am copying and pasting my posts. So dont think you can ccensor me.
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There is only one post worth keeping since page 14.
Yes.
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At it again are we...?
Palestinian language is an Aramaic dialect.
There is no "Palestinian" language. They speak common Arabic, same as the Arabs in Jordan, same as the Arabs in Syria and Lebanon. Aramaic was at one point used as a day-to-day language in Israel by most of its inhabitants, primarily the Jews. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language)
Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history.[3] It has been the language of administration of empires and the language of divine worship. It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the Second Temple period (539 BCE – 70 CE), the original language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, likely to have been the mother tongue of Jesus of Nazareth and is the main language of the Talmud.
The dome of the rock is an excellent example of mosaic art built in 687 AD.
The dome of the rock was defiantly built on the grounds of the Temple Mount, where Solomon's Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Temple) was built by the Israelites more than 1500 years previously.
Palestine was the informal designation for the territory ruled by Turkey for 400 years. Palestine wasn't made an official designation until the British took over after 1917.
Palestine was a general name for the land, every citizen of Palestine, first and foremost the Jews, were called "Palestinians". Only in the 60's did the Arabs start taking this word and using it as a name of their "people". The maps you referenced do nothing for your case. They do not show any evidence of non-Jewish majority in Palestine. Jews have been living in Israel in various strengths and capacity since ancient times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Holy_Cities).
There were always indigenous people who were living in the cities, towns and villages on the historic maps.
Yes, and these indigenous people are called Israelites, or Jews.
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Fuck off with your Goebbles Bullshit.
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At it again are we...?
Palestinian language is an Aramaic dialect.
There is no "Palestinian" language. They speak common Arabic, same as the Arabs in Jordan, same as the Arabs in Syria and Lebanon. Aramaic was at one point used as a day-to-day language in Israel by most of its inhabitants, primarily the Jews. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language)
Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history.[3] It has been the language of administration of empires and the language of divine worship. It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the Second Temple period (539 BCE – 70 CE), the original language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, likely to have been the mother tongue of Jesus of Nazareth and is the main language of the Talmud.
Next you will be saying there is no such thing as a dialects or accents. I think linguistics would beg to differ. I speak English but my dialect is Southeastern US which is different in sound from the English spoken even as close as the Chesapeake bay region. It is different from the dialect or accent of English spoken in New England and way different from the English spoken in Ireland, Scotland and England. In English there are usage and sound difference even variations in spellings of some words. I can say with certainty that all languages even Arabic have regional differences in sound, usage and slang. I can understand a speaker of English from the UK. But I can tell by the sound and the words they choose to frequently use, we are not from the same group of English speakers.
The dome of the rock is an excellent example of mosaic art built in 687 AD.
The dome of the rock was defiantly built on the grounds of the Temple Mount, where Solomon's Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Temple) was built by the Israelites more than 1500 years previously.
So what now the world has to demolish everything and set it back to the way it looked 2000 years ago? Or just to put back buildings which were destroyed in the middle ages. Kind of like making people go back to the land of their tribes origins. Man no one would be able to move if all us of Scottish ancestry were made to move back home.
Palestine was the informal designation for the territory ruled by Turkey for 400 years. Palestine wasn't made an official designation until the British took over after 1917.
Palestine was a general name for the land, every citizen of Palestine, first and foremost the Jews, were called "Palestinians". Only in the 60's did the Arabs start taking this word and using it as a name of their "people". The maps you referenced do nothing for your case. They do not show any evidence of non-Jewish majority in Palestine. Jews have been living in Israel in various strengths and capacity since ancient times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Holy_Cities).
The maps however show the Arab villages and place names which have been wiped off the map by Israeli forces in the 20th century. They didn't do demographics when many of those maps were published.
There were always indigenous people who were living in the cities, towns and villages on the historic maps.
Yes, and these indigenous people are called Israelites, or Jews.
Bull reference the link to the Demographic changes in population in the last 100 years. Most Jews immigrated to the area from Europe because they were being attacked in Europe. I don't blame them for wanting to get out of Europe at all. There were some Jews already in Palestine but most of the Jews in Israel today are descendants of the European immigration of the 20th century.
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BBC has a na article today about the continued destruction of arab property in Isreal.
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At it again are we...?
Palestinian language is an Aramaic dialect.
You have to be kidding me. I would consider myself to be the foremost expert on Aramaic in this forum. I study texts in it every day.
In addition to that, I have fluency, or competency in other semetic languages.
So, my Hebrew is shaky, my Farsi is fluent, my Aramaic is decent, and I have a smattering of Arabic. I can tell you with certainty that Arabic does not come from Aramaic. Aramaic was an influence, but people stopped talking that conversationally hundreds of years ago.
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Clearly he is no linguest expert at all.
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Clearly he is no linguest expert at all.
Quoted for posterity.
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At it again are we...?
Palestinian language is an Aramaic dialect.
You have to be kidding me. I would consider myself to be the foremost expert on Aramaic in this forum. I study texts in it every day.
In addition to that, I have fluency, or competency in other semetic languages.
So, my Hebrew is shaky, my Farsi is fluent, my Aramaic is decent, and I have a smattering of Arabic. I can tell you with certainty that Arabic does not come from Aramaic. Aramaic was an influence, but people stopped talking that conversationally hundreds of years ago.
I meant to say Arabic and I am not sure why I super imposed Aramaic. Aramaic being one of the influence languages for Arabic. My point before people jumped on only the mistaken use of an influence root language is people in any language family will have regional differences and accents. Usually only native speakers pickup on the differences in inflection and accent which some people call dialects. I know some Spanish and I am told that Spanish speakers from Mexico sound different from Cuban Spanish speakers who in turn sound different to Spanish speakers in Spain. But honestly when I hear Spanish speakers to me they all sound the same and the regional differences are not noticeable. So the claim that all Arabic speakers are the same is a racist one with no basis in truth.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8180743.stm
The US has led international condemnation of Israel after it evicted nine Palestinian families living in two houses in occupied East Jerusalem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcjchhD3qBc
[youtube=425,350]LcjchhD3qBc[/youtube]
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At it again are we...?
Palestinian language is an Aramaic dialect.
You have to be kidding me. I would consider myself to be the foremost expert on Aramaic in this forum. I study texts in it every day.
In addition to that, I have fluency, or competency in other semetic languages.
So, my Hebrew is shaky, my Farsi is fluent, my Aramaic is decent, and I have a smattering of Arabic. I can tell you with certainty that Arabic does not come from Aramaic. Aramaic was an influence, but people stopped talking that conversationally hundreds of years ago.
I meant to say Arabic and I am not sure why I super imposed Aramaic. Aramaic being one of the influence languages for Arabic. My point before people jumped on only the mistaken use of an influence root language is people in any language family will have regional differences and accents. Usually only native speakers pickup on the differences in inflection and accent which some people call dialects. I know some Spanish and I am told that Spanish speakers from Mexico sound different from Cuban Spanish speakers who in turn sound different to Spanish speakers in Spain. But honestly when I hear Spanish speakers to me they all sound the same and the regional differences are not noticeable. So the claim that all Arabic speakers are the same is a racist one with no basis in truth.
Well then, excuse me for jumping on you for it.
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Clearly he is no linguest expert at all.
Quoted for posterity.
And hes not. His lies are sure as fuck not proof of anything
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http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=27051
Israeli Rabbi's Guide to Killing Causes Firestorm
Written by Benjamin Joffe-Walt
Published Tuesday, November 10, 2009
An Israeli Rabbi living in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank has caused a firestorm in both Israeli and Palestinian media with a new book outlining a series of Jewish theological arguments for killing those who threaten Israel or demand Israeli land.
The 230-page book, "The King's Torah" was released over the weekend by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira and gives theological backing to Jews killing those perceived to be violating Jewish commandments or threatening the Jewish nation. A theological treatise based on Rabbi Shapira's interpretation of passages from the Jewish bible, "The King's Torah" is an extensive guide to when it is permissible for Jews to kill non-Jews.
Rabbi Shapiro's book argues that Jewish law allows the killing of "non-Jews who demand the land for themselves", those from a nation which "helps a murderer of Jews," those spreading "hostile blasphemy" and "those who, by speech, weaken our sovereignty."
"Any case in which the life of the civilian endangers Israel," the book states, "it is allowed to kill a gentile."
"The permit also applies when the persecutor is threatening to kill indirectly rather than directly," Rabbi Shapiro's book reads. "If the civilian is aiding fighters it is permissible to kill... Any citizen who supports the war or the fighters or expresses satisfaction with their deeds - the killing is permitted."
Rabbi Shapira's book argues that revenge is a necessity under Jewish law.
"To defeat the wicked one should be vengeful, tit for tat," the book reads. "Revenge is a necessity... and sometimes doing savage things intended to create a true balance of terror."
The book further states that Jews are permitted to kill children "If it is clear they will grow up to harm us."
"If hurting an evil leader's children will pressure him to stop acting maliciously," Rabbi Shapira wrote, "you can hurt them."
The book discusses the laws regarding such killings in theological terms, never specifically mentioning Palestinians, Arabs or Israeli soldiers sent to remove Jewish settlements. Its release comes weeks after the arrest of Yaakov Teitel, a Jewish Israeli settler of American origin who is understood to have admitted to killing Palestinians and attacking progressive and messianic Jews.
Rabbi Shapira is head of the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva, a religious school for Jewish boys based in the Yitzhar Jewish settlement a few miles southwest of the Palestinian city of Nablus. Rabbi Shapira's followers adhere to a radical form of Jewish religious nationalism and call for a Torah-based theocracy to replace the State of Israel, which they see as having abandoned core Jewish principals.
The school is best known for its former leader, American-born Rabbi Yitzhak Ginzburg, seen as the spiritual heir to the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, the American-Israeli founder of the extreme-right political party Kach, classified by both Israel and the U.S. as a terrorist organization. Rabbi Ginzburg was imprisoned for an article praising Baruch Goldstein, an American-born Israeli physician who killed dozens of Muslim worshipers in Hebron and injured 150 others in 1994.
Both Rabbi Ginzburg and Rabbi Ya'akov Yosef, another prominent leader of the radical Jewish religious nationalist movement, have recommended Rabbi Shapira's new book, which was first released over the weekend at a Jerusalem memorial for Rabbi Kahane.
Rabbi Hank Skirball, the chairperson of Hiddush, an Israeli organization dedicated to religious freedom and equality, said Rabbi Shapira's book represented only the far right fringe of religious Jews.
"It's a perversion of Jewish law and I don't think it's taken seriously by most," he told The Media Line. "It's giving people tremendous latitude to kill people they disagree with and opens itself up to violation of much more important prohibitions in Jewish law."
"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."
Rabbi David Hartman, founder of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem and a philosopher of contemporary Judaism, said that the rabbis of the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva were not taking into account the consequences of their teachings.
"Has the Jewish tradition ever created a distinction based on race, gender, etc? Of course, there is no doubt that there are serious Jewish sources that do not look at the non-Jew with full equality," he told The Media Line. "But they have lots of sources they could use, and which sources you choose to read and don't read is important."
"One of the interesting things about Jewish law is that perception is a part of the criteria," Rabbi Hartman said. "Jewish theologians aren't pure academics nor are they spokesmen, so they are not writing in a vacuum. The most serious Jewish theological figures are very careful about the implications or consequences of their writings."
Rabbi Hartman argued that while such books touched a cultural chord, they were mostly ignored in the mainstream Jewish theological community.
"I make a distinction between a cultural fringe and what is fringe in terms of Jewish theological thought," he told The Media Line. "On the one hand, this is not fringe, and you have mainstream kids talking this talk. But in terms of Jewish law, there is no significant Jewish theological movement to permit the blood of non-Jews. If you're looking at the major thinkers, nobody is talking with that language, whether they are ultra-orthodox, Sephardic or Ashkenazi, and these kinds of things are ignored."
"The problem is that if you ignore something it doesn't mean it doesn't have any influence over students," Rabbi Hartman said. "Beware of that which you ignore, what is a cultural phenomenon today may become acceptable to major Jewish thinkers tomorrow."
"For example, when it comes to Israel, our return to power and the desire to strengthen the claim to the land has created a push for a new Jewish theological creativity and a cultural phenomenon in which certain Jewish theological positions are given more significance than what the major Jewish theological authorities would allow."
"Forty years ago there were no major Jewish theological figures who said the land of Israel was more significant than Pikuach Nefesh, the concept of the saving of a life," he said, in reference to Jewish theological debates over exchanging land captured by Israel for peace. "Today in the religious Zionist community there are major theological figures for whom this is now a self evident truth."
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He's right except for the children part.
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"If hurting an evil leader's children will pressure him to stop acting maliciously," Rabbi Shapira wrote, "you can hurt them."
fail.
"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."
success. This should be burnt into the retinas of every IDF 'recruit'.
Too bad no one in the IDF/government is gonna listen to this guy.
So I guess I support one of the crazy godfearing people in this instance.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/world/middleeast/15briefs-Israelbrf.html
West Bank: Israeli Rabbi Decries Burning of a Mosque
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: December 14, 2009
Israel’s chief rabbi visited the Palestinian village of Yasuf on Monday to condemn the burning of a mosque there, saying the attack brought back memories of the Holocaust. The authorities say they believe that Jewish extremists carried out the attack on Friday in retaliation for a government-ordered slowdown in settlement construction. The rabbi, Yona Metzger, said arson was especially troubling to Jews because their holy places were burned by the Nazis. “In the State of Israel, we will not allow a Jew to do something like this to Muslims,” he said.
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“In the State of Israel, we will not allow a Jew to do something like this to Muslims,” he said.
Actions always will speak louder than words.
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"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."
success. This should be burnt into the retinas of every IDF 'recruit'.
Too bad no one in the IDF/government is gonna listen to this guy.
So I guess I support one of the crazy godfearing people in this instance.
Sounds like he meant to give it a collective meaning, i.e., if Hamas-types launch missiles at your cities and the only way to stop it is by killing them, then it is allowed.
Too bad he doesn't interpret the Torah Law for what is considered lawful when there are non-combatants who did not flee the area of combat - or worse - non-combatants held hostage by the enemy.
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http://www.thejewishchronicle.net/view/full_story/5686519/article-Involvement-in-arson-attack-leads-to-Rabbi-Yitzhak-Shapira-s-arrest-?instance=home_news_israel_right
Involvement in arson attack leads to Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira's arrest
The head of a West Bank yeshiva was arrested for his alleged involvement in an arson attack on a nearby mosque.
Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, one of the leaders of the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva in the northern West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, was arrested Tuesday by the Shin Bet security service.
Shapira had been questioned earlier in the day by police, at which time he reportedly refused to answer questions about the arson. He then was placed under arrest and transferred to the Shin Bet.
At least five of the yeshiva’s students were arrested last week in connection with the arson.
In the December attack on the mosque in the Palestinian town of Yasuf, arsonists burned furniture, prayer rugs and holy texts, and defaced the mosque’s walls. The attack led to retaliatory violence, including the stabbing of an Israeli woman at a bus stop. The arson attack was internationally condemned.
The rabbi has been condemned for writing a book called “The King’s Torah” that says it is permissible to kill non-Jewish children if they pose a threat or as a deterrent for the future. It states that only a Jew who kills a Jew violates the commandment against murder.
On Tuesday, the Anti-Defamation League called on Orthodox Jewish leaders to “speak out against his [Shapira’s] book as a perversion of Judaism.”
ADL National Director Abraham Foxman also said in a statement that “It is outrageous that several prominent rabbis have endorsed this book. The failure of religious leaders to condemn the distorted views of biblical law advocated in “Torat Hamelech” (“The King’s Torah”) may have contributed to an atmosphere in which heinous attacks, such as the attack against the Palestinian mosque in Yasuf, are encouraged and condoned as being supported by biblical commandments.”
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http://www.vosizneias.com/47931/2010/01/27/israel-rabbi-yitzhak-shapira-released-after-court-says-no-grounds-for-arrest
(http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/shapira5.jpg)
Israel - The Jerusalem Magistrate's Court on Wednesday released Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, head of the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva near Yitzhar, who was arrested on Tuesday on suspicion of involvement in the arson of the mosque in the Palestinian village of Yasuf last month.
He is suspected to have had knowledge that a number of students from his yeshiva were responsible for the fire and failing to report this to the police.
The implementation of the ruling was delayed until 10:30 pm, to allow the police time to appeal the decision.
In the decision, the judge criticized the police and said they had no grounds for a remand extension. The rabbi's supporters protested outside the courthouse.
Rabbi Shapira's lawyer, Attorney Adi Keidar from the Honenu Organization, told Ynet that the rabbi denies any connection to the event and is not cooperating with his investigators.
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According to Keidar, the rabbi told the detectives that his refusal to help the investigation progress stems from what he called "Israel Police's conduct and attitude towards the rabbis recently."
Dozens of settlers arrived at the Shin Bet facility to support the rabbi Tuesday evening. Knesset Member Michael Ben-Ari (National Union) said during the rally that the police's conduct was redolent of "dark, oppressive regimes".
Last week, a number of suspects from Yitzhar were arrested, including some yeshiva students, on suspicions of being involved in torching in the mosque in the nearby Palestinian village, as well as other offenses. Five of them – three minors and two young men from two yeshivas in the area – are still being detained.
Remand of all of the detainees was extended until Thursday, when it will be clarified whether or not an affidavit will be submitted on their behalf prior to the issuance of indictments.
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"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."
success. This should be burnt into the retinas of every IDF 'recruit'.
Too bad no one in the IDF/government is gonna listen to this guy.
So I guess I support one of the crazy godfearing people in this instance.
Sounds like he meant to give it a collective meaning, i.e., if Hamas-types launch missiles at your cities and the only way to stop it is by killing them, then it is allowed.
Too bad he doesn't interpret the Torah Law for what is considered lawful when there are non-combatants who did not flee the area of combat - or worse - non-combatants held hostage by the enemy.
Doesn't sound very collective.
You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him.
The "very obvious" and "no other way to save your life", is crucially important. If you fire artillery into a civilian area after a rocket is launched, maybe you'll hit the militant that fired the rocket, and maybe that will stop him killing someone in the future, but that is very far from "very obvious" and "no other way to save your life".
To my knowledge a good number, if not a majority of Israeli artillery and air attacks are done in retaliation to a rocket attack, meaning it cant even losely be classed as defence, since it won't stop the rockets that have been launched from killing anyone.
There's no case of self defense I wouldn't defend if it met the criteria this rabbi set out.
Of course I would add to this that its only okay to kill someone to save your life, if you can do it with the reasonable expectation that you won't kill any innocent people.
I.e. you can use a gun in a mall but not a rocket launcher.
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http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57988
Two Soldiers Wounded By Settlers In Yitzhar Settlement
Thursday February 18, 2010 00:02
Israeli sources reported Wednesday that a border-guard officer and an Israeli soldier were lightly wounded on Wednesday after a group of young Jewish settlers from the Yitzhar settlement, in the West Bank, hurled stones at them.
Israeli Ynet News reported that one of the soldiers needed to be hospitalized.
The army was conducting a drill in the settlement; the drill was meant to "counter attacks against the settlement”, and members of the local police took part in it.
The Ynet stated that some 30 young settlers, aged 16 – 17, including some masked settlers, attacked the soldiers and hurled stones and light bombs filled with paint.
The settlers also torched tires and punctured the tires of two Israeli military vehicles before shutting the electric gate of the settlement.
The attack angered army commanders who said that they were conducting a drill to protect the settlements in the West Bank, yet the soldiers were attacked by local settlers. The commanders described the attack as shameful.
Last week, the settlers attacked an army vehicle transporting two senior army commanders. The settlers hurled stones and paint cans at the vehicle.
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now let's see the white phosphours rain down on the kibbutzim
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3854982,00.html
Goldstein legacy continues
Dozens of followers will gather Saturday to mark 16 years to Cave of the Patriarchs massacre that left 29 Muslim worshippers dead. 'We come here every year to show the Left that suppressing the Right will be met with opposition,' says editor of book about Goldstein
Shmulik Grossman
Published: 02.26.10, 14:44 / Israel News
On Saturday, as in every year, Baruch Goldstein followers will mark 16 years to the massacre of Muslim worshippers in the Cave of the Patriarchs. This year's timing is especially sensitive, as it comes amidst renewed tensions in Hebron following the government's announcement on the national heritage plan.
In the early hours of the morning, on Purim holiday, February 1994, he entered the Cave of the Patriarchs' Muslim complex while wearing IDF uniform, and slaughtered 29 Arab worshippers and injured 125 others.
A blow to the head with a fire extinguisher put an end to the massacre – and to his life. As years went by, his life and death became a myth among radical right-wing circles. "He knew that Jewish blood was about to be shed, and so he protected his own people. Perhaps some were innocent – but war is war," says Itamar Ben Gvir in an attempt to rationalize the unthinkable act.
"We come here every year to show the Left that suppressing the Right will be met with opposition," said Michael Ben-Horin, who edited a book about Goldstein titled "Baruch Hagever." Recently, the book marked a victory when the District Court ruled that "Lauding Goldstein does not constitute incitement" – a decision that was not appealed by the state.
Ben-Horin, who has never hesitated to speak freely, was convinced of his hero's virtue: "He prevented a large massacre in Hebron's Jewish settlement, and we visit his grave in order to implicitly say – Jewish lives are not disposable."
Paradoxically, Goldstein's followers credit the Left with establishing their hero's fame. They are especially "thankful" to former MK Ran Cohen (Meretz), who initiated a law to evacuate Goldstein's burial site that was built by his family members.
"He only strengthened what many already admired about him," said right-wing activist Noam Federman, "Six years after the incident, the state and the Left removed all the symbols that gave the burial site the character of a memorial monument. Many Jews saw it as an attempt to squash the memory of a man who prevented a Jewish massacre in Hebron."
Former Knesset Member Ran Cohen (Meretz) says that "what members of Kach built was no less than a monument to commemorate a nefarious crime." The bill he legislated, Cohen explained, prevented teens from gathering at the site and getting educated to follow Goldstein's way. "Their aim was to educate to terror. The phenomenon surrounding Goldstein brings to mind a crazy ritual. This whole practice is criminal and is being portrayed as having a Jewish spirit," he said.
"All these insane 'Goldsteinites' are enemies of Israel and belong to a strand that is by and large anti-Zionist. Whoever enters a synagogue in Jericho during a period of calm and provokes hatred and hostile activity is a terrorist – and the state should treat them accordingly," Cohen adds.
Criticism not only from Left
Peace Now member Hagit Ofran claimed that Goldstein's followers who uproot trees as part of their struggle over control of West Bank lands, represent the "ugly Jew" and reaches new levels of a moral low. "Those who praise terror acts and call for the slaughter of innocents symbolize everything that is evil and cowardly in our country," Ofran said.
Peace Now is not the only one spewing criticism at Goldstein admirers. Realistic Religious Zionism member Yonatan Urich says that "very few normative people will show support for an act like the one perpetrated by Goldstein, but on the other hand, they do not explicitly condemn his actions either," he said.
Urich adds that he often hears comments such as "Goldstein was a saint, but did unthinkable actions." According to the same logic, Urich noted, "One can assume Stalin was a nice guy who did horrible things."
Goldstein's burial site has become a sort of spiritual center, where barren women and sick people come in order to ask for remedy. However, far-right activists reject this notion, claiming it resembles "Pagan practices."
Either way, if weather conditions allow, dozens of followers will visit Goldstein's grave on Saturday, where they will celebrate the memory of a man responsible for the lives of 29 Muslim worshippers and the further escalation of the conflict in Hebron. Police said they are prepared for the possibility of riots breaking out throughout the city, especially given this year's sensitive timing.
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I found this interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre
The first suicide bombing carried out by Palestinian militants was launched by Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades in 1994, in retaliation for the massacre carried out by Goldstein.[42] Eight people were killed and 34 wounded in the attack which took place in Afula on April 6, 1994, at the end of the forty day mourning period for Goldstein's victims.[43]
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I found this interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre
The first suicide bombing carried out by Palestinian militants was launched by Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades in 1994, in retaliation for the massacre carried out by Goldstein.[42] Eight people were killed and 34 wounded in the attack which took place in Afula on April 6, 1994, at the end of the forty day mourning period for Goldstein's victims.[43]
It is customary for Arab terrorist groups in the middle east to attribute any attack (suicide bombing or other) as a "retaliation". They won't go out and say "its a fine day to go out and target some Israeli civilians". It's always "in response" to this or that event or commemoration. These attacks are often planned months ahead of time, and the actual timing depends upon when they are able to overcome security and cause the most carnage, nothing else. After the attack has taken place they go on the media and declare that it is in retaliation to this or that event that just happened to have taken place recently. Groups like Hamas constantly and relentlessly seek to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible, "retaliation" is just a false premise.
It even says in the source you referenced above that at the time of the "Cave of the Patriarchs" massacre:"... warnings were issued regarding an expected attack by Hamas following the distribution of its leaflets in Hebron."
Besides, Cave of the Patriarchs was the ONLY case of Jewish suicide-bomber ever. One man acted alone and his action was harshly condemned by almost all Israeli society. So if Hamas' first suicide attack was "in retaliation" to Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, than what were all their other hundreds of suicide bombing attacks (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Suicide+and+Other+Bombing+Attacks+in+Israel+Since.htm) in retaliation for?
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It even says in the source you referenced above that at the time of the "Cave of the Patriarchs" massacre:"... warnings were issued regarding an expected attack by Hamas following the distribution of its leaflets in Hebron."
and?
Besides, Cave of the Patriarchs was the ONLY case of Jewish suicide-bomber ever.
He wasn't a bomber, and he didn't commit suicide. I'm not sure why that matters. He's definitely not the only case of a Jewish terrorist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre
Shortly afterwards, Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish resident of the Kiryat Arba settlement and member of the Kahanist movement, entered the Isaac Hall of the cave. He was dressed in his army uniform and carried an IMI Galil assault rifle and four magazines of ammunition, which held 35 rounds each. He was not stopped by the guards, who assumed that he was an officer entering the tomb to pray in an adjacent chamber reserved for Jews.[3]
Standing in front of the only exit from the cave and positioned to the rear of the Muslim worshippers, he opened fire with the weapon, killing 29 people and injuring another 125.
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The attack ended when Goldstein was subdued and beaten to death by the survivors.
So if Hamas' first suicide attack was "in retaliation" to Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, than what were all their other hundreds of suicide bombing attacks (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Suicide+and+Other+Bombing+Attacks+in+Israel+Since.htm) in retaliation for?
I don't know, but it seems like you have to be brainwashed or really mad about something to be a suicide bomber.
It's not like the Jews don't do the retaliation thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
The first operations began around April 1936, and by the end of World War II, more than 250 Arabs had been killed. The trend of activities was an attempt to respond "an eye for an eye" in the form of violent operations against Arab violence, and often to match the form of retaliation or its location to correspond to the attack that provoked it. A number of examples:
* After an Arab shooting at Carmel school in Tel Aviv, which resulted in the death of a Jewish child, Irgun members attacked an Arab neighborhood near Kerem Hatemanim in Tel Aviv, killing one Arab man and injuring another.
* On August 17, the Irgun responded to shootings by Arabs from the Jaffa-Jerusalem train towards Jews that were waiting by the train block on Herzl Street in Tel Aviv. The same day, when a Jewish child was injured by the shooting, Irgun members attacked a train on the same route, killing one Arab and injuring five.
During 1936, Irgun members carried out approximately ten retaliatory operations.
Throughout 1937 the Irgun continued this line of operation.
* On March 6, a Jew at Sabbath prayers at the Western Wall was shot by a local Arab. A few hours later, the Irgun shot at an Arab in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Rechavia.
* On June 29, a band of Arabs attacked an Egged bus on the Jerusalem - Tel Aviv road, killing one Jew. The following day, two Jews were also killed near Karkur. A few hours later, the Irgun carried out a number of operations.
o An Arab bus making its way from Lifta was attacked in Jerusalem.
o In two other locations in Jerusalem, Arabs were shot as well.
o In Tel Aviv, a hand grenade was thrown at an Arab coffee shop on Carmel St., injuring many of the patrons.
o Irgun members also injured an Arab on Reines St. in Tel Aviv.
o On September 5, the Irgun responded to the murder of a rabbi on his way home from prayer in the Old City of Jerusalem by throwing explosives at an Arab bus that had left Lifta, injuring two female passengers and a British police officer.