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nefarious plot

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #255 on: August 03, 2009, 06:55:02 PM »

Clearly he is no linguest expert at all.
                            Quoted for posterity.

And hes not. His lies are sure as fuck not proof of anything
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blackie

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #256 on: November 10, 2009, 11:03:39 PM »

http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=27051

Israeli Rabbi's Guide to Killing Causes Firestorm

Written by Benjamin Joffe-Walt
Published Tuesday, November 10, 2009
   

An Israeli Rabbi living in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank has caused a firestorm in both Israeli and Palestinian media with a new book outlining a series of Jewish theological arguments for killing those who threaten Israel or demand Israeli land.

The 230-page book, "The King's Torah" was released over the weekend by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira and gives theological backing to Jews killing those perceived to be violating Jewish commandments or threatening the Jewish nation. A theological treatise based on Rabbi Shapira's interpretation of passages from the Jewish bible, "The King's Torah" is an extensive guide to when it is permissible for Jews to kill non-Jews.

Rabbi Shapiro's book argues that Jewish law allows the killing of "non-Jews who demand the land for themselves", those from a nation which "helps a murderer of Jews," those spreading "hostile blasphemy" and "those who, by speech, weaken our sovereignty."

"Any case in which the life of the civilian endangers Israel," the book states, "it is allowed to kill a gentile."

"The permit also applies when the persecutor is threatening to kill indirectly rather than directly," Rabbi Shapiro's book reads. "If the civilian is aiding fighters it is permissible to kill... Any citizen who supports the war or the fighters or expresses satisfaction with their deeds - the killing is permitted."

Rabbi Shapira's book argues that revenge is a necessity under Jewish law.

"To defeat the wicked one should be vengeful, tit for tat," the book reads. "Revenge is a necessity... and sometimes doing savage things intended to create a true balance of terror."

The book further states that Jews are permitted to kill children "If it is clear they will grow up to harm us."

"If hurting an evil leader's children will pressure him to stop acting maliciously," Rabbi Shapira wrote, "you can hurt them."

The book discusses the laws regarding such killings in theological terms, never specifically mentioning Palestinians, Arabs or Israeli soldiers sent to remove Jewish settlements. Its release comes weeks after the arrest of Yaakov Teitel, a Jewish Israeli settler of American origin who is understood to have admitted to killing Palestinians and attacking progressive and messianic Jews.

Rabbi Shapira is head of the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva, a religious school for Jewish boys based in the Yitzhar Jewish settlement a few miles southwest of the Palestinian city of Nablus. Rabbi Shapira's followers adhere to a radical form of Jewish religious nationalism and call for a Torah-based theocracy to replace the State of Israel, which they see as having abandoned core Jewish principals.

The school is best known for its former leader, American-born Rabbi Yitzhak Ginzburg, seen as the spiritual heir to the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, the American-Israeli founder of the extreme-right political party Kach, classified by both Israel and the U.S. as a terrorist organization. Rabbi Ginzburg was imprisoned for an article praising Baruch Goldstein, an American-born Israeli physician who killed dozens of Muslim worshipers in Hebron and injured 150 others in 1994.

Both Rabbi Ginzburg and Rabbi Ya'akov Yosef, another prominent leader of the radical Jewish religious nationalist movement, have recommended Rabbi Shapira's new book, which was first released over the weekend at a Jerusalem memorial for Rabbi Kahane.

Rabbi Hank Skirball, the chairperson of Hiddush, an Israeli organization dedicated to religious freedom and equality, said Rabbi Shapira's book represented only the far right fringe of religious Jews.

"It's a perversion of Jewish law and I don't think it's taken seriously by most," he told The Media Line. "It's giving people tremendous latitude to kill people they disagree with and opens itself up to violation of much more important prohibitions in Jewish law."

"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."
Rabbi David Hartman, founder of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem and a philosopher of contemporary Judaism, said that the rabbis of the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva were not taking into account the consequences of their teachings.

"Has the Jewish tradition ever created a distinction based on race, gender, etc? Of course, there is no doubt that there are serious Jewish sources that do not look at the non-Jew with full equality," he told The Media Line. "But they have lots of sources they could use, and which sources you choose to read and don't read is important."

"One of the interesting things about Jewish law is that perception is a part of the criteria," Rabbi Hartman said. "Jewish theologians aren't pure academics nor are they spokesmen, so they are not writing in a vacuum. The most serious Jewish theological figures are very careful about the implications or consequences of their writings."

Rabbi Hartman argued that while such books touched a cultural chord, they were mostly ignored in the mainstream Jewish theological community.

"I make a distinction between a cultural fringe and what is fringe in terms of Jewish theological thought," he told The Media Line. "On the one hand, this is not fringe, and you have mainstream kids talking this talk. But in terms of Jewish law, there is no significant Jewish theological movement to permit the blood of non-Jews. If you're looking at the major thinkers, nobody is talking with that language, whether they are ultra-orthodox, Sephardic or Ashkenazi, and these kinds of things are ignored."

"The problem is that if you ignore something it doesn't mean it doesn't have any influence over students," Rabbi Hartman said. "Beware of that which you ignore, what is a cultural phenomenon today may become acceptable to major Jewish thinkers tomorrow."

"For example, when it comes to Israel, our return to power and the desire to strengthen the claim to the land has created a push for a new Jewish theological creativity and a cultural phenomenon in which certain Jewish theological positions are given more significance than what the major Jewish theological authorities would allow."

"Forty years ago there were no major Jewish theological figures who said the land of Israel was more significant than Pikuach Nefesh, the concept of the saving of a life," he said, in reference to Jewish theological debates over exchanging land captured by Israel for peace. "Today in the religious Zionist community there are major theological figures for whom this is now a self evident truth."
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #257 on: November 10, 2009, 11:50:32 PM »

He's right except for the children part.
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fatcat

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #258 on: November 11, 2009, 09:29:06 AM »

"If hurting an evil leader's children will pressure him to stop acting maliciously," Rabbi Shapira wrote, "you can hurt them."

fail.

Quote
"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."

success. This should be burnt into the retinas of every IDF 'recruit'.

Too bad no one in the IDF/government is gonna listen to this guy.

So I guess I support one of the crazy godfearing people in this instance.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 09:31:27 AM by fatcat »
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blackie

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #259 on: December 16, 2009, 03:30:33 PM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/world/middleeast/15briefs-Israelbrf.html

West Bank: Israeli Rabbi Decries Burning of a Mosque

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: December 14, 2009

Israel’s chief rabbi visited the Palestinian village of Yasuf on Monday to condemn the burning of a mosque there, saying the attack brought back memories of the Holocaust. The authorities say they believe that Jewish extremists carried out the attack on Friday in retaliation for a government-ordered slowdown in settlement construction. The rabbi, Yona Metzger, said arson was especially troubling to Jews because their holy places were burned by the Nazis. “In the State of Israel, we will not allow a Jew to do something like this to Muslims,” he said.
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davann

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #260 on: December 16, 2009, 06:04:21 PM »

“In the State of Israel, we will not allow a Jew to do something like this to Muslims,” he said.


Actions always will speak louder than words.
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avshae

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #261 on: December 26, 2009, 11:47:21 PM »

Quote
Quote
"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."

success. This should be burnt into the retinas of every IDF 'recruit'.

Too bad no one in the IDF/government is gonna listen to this guy.

So I guess I support one of the crazy godfearing people in this instance.

Sounds like he meant to give it a collective meaning, i.e., if Hamas-types launch missiles at your cities and the only way to stop it is by killing them, then it is allowed.

Too bad he doesn't interpret the Torah Law for what is considered lawful when there are non-combatants who did not flee the area of combat - or worse - non-combatants held hostage by the enemy.
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blackie

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #262 on: January 28, 2010, 06:19:05 PM »

http://www.thejewishchronicle.net/view/full_story/5686519/article-Involvement-in-arson-attack-leads-to-Rabbi-Yitzhak-Shapira-s-arrest-?instance=home_news_israel_right

Involvement in arson attack leads to Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira's arrest


The head of a West Bank yeshiva was arrested for his alleged involvement in an arson attack on a nearby mosque.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, one of the leaders of the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva in the northern West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, was arrested Tuesday by the Shin Bet security service.

Shapira had been questioned earlier in the day by police, at which time he reportedly refused to answer questions about the arson. He then was placed under arrest and transferred to the Shin Bet.

At least five of the yeshiva’s students were arrested last week in connection with the arson.

In the December attack on the mosque in the Palestinian town of Yasuf, arsonists burned furniture, prayer rugs and holy texts, and defaced the mosque’s walls. The attack led to retaliatory violence, including the stabbing of an Israeli woman at a bus stop. The arson attack was internationally condemned.

The rabbi has been condemned for writing a book  called “The King’s Torah” that says it is permissible to kill non-Jewish children if they pose a threat or as a deterrent for the future. It states that only a Jew who kills a Jew violates the commandment against murder.

On Tuesday, the Anti-Defamation League called on Orthodox Jewish leaders to “speak out against his [Shapira’s] book as a perversion of Judaism.”

ADL National Director Abraham Foxman also said in a statement that “It is outrageous that several prominent rabbis have endorsed this book. The failure of religious leaders to condemn the distorted views of biblical law advocated in “Torat Hamelech” (“The King’s Torah”) may have contributed to an atmosphere in which heinous attacks, such as the attack against the Palestinian mosque in Yasuf, are encouraged and condoned as being supported by biblical commandments.”
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blackie

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #263 on: January 28, 2010, 06:30:41 PM »

http://www.vosizneias.com/47931/2010/01/27/israel-rabbi-yitzhak-shapira-released-after-court-says-no-grounds-for-arrest



Israel - The Jerusalem Magistrate's Court on Wednesday released Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, head of the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva near Yitzhar, who was arrested on Tuesday on suspicion of involvement in the arson of the mosque in the Palestinian village of Yasuf last month.


He is suspected to have had knowledge that a number of students from his yeshiva were responsible for the fire and failing to report this to the police.


The implementation of the ruling was delayed until 10:30 pm, to allow the police time to appeal the decision.


In the decision, the judge criticized the police and said they had no grounds for a remand extension. The rabbi's supporters protested outside the courthouse.


Rabbi Shapira's lawyer, Attorney Adi Keidar from the Honenu Organization, told Ynet that the rabbi denies any connection to the event and is not cooperating with his investigators.

Advertisement:

According to Keidar, the rabbi told the detectives that his refusal to help the investigation progress stems from what he called "Israel Police's conduct and attitude towards the rabbis recently."


Dozens of settlers arrived at the Shin Bet facility to support the rabbi Tuesday evening. Knesset Member Michael Ben-Ari (National Union) said during the rally that the police's conduct was redolent of "dark, oppressive regimes".


Last week, a number of suspects from Yitzhar were arrested, including some yeshiva students, on suspicions of being involved in torching in the mosque in the nearby Palestinian village, as well as other offenses. Five of them – three minors and two young men from two yeshivas in the area – are still being detained.


Remand of all of the detainees was extended until Thursday, when it will be clarified whether or not an affidavit will be submitted on their behalf prior to the issuance of indictments.
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fatcat

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #264 on: January 29, 2010, 10:18:37 AM »

Quote
Quote
"In Israel we did not kill the murderer of Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin and we didn't kill any of the people who created sedition at the time," he said. "We have freedom of speech and its very difficult to know what is dangerous and what is not. Jewish law does not provide for us to go out and kill someone for what he's saying. You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him."

success. This should be burnt into the retinas of every IDF 'recruit'.

Too bad no one in the IDF/government is gonna listen to this guy.

So I guess I support one of the crazy godfearing people in this instance.

Sounds like he meant to give it a collective meaning, i.e., if Hamas-types launch missiles at your cities and the only way to stop it is by killing them, then it is allowed.

Too bad he doesn't interpret the Torah Law for what is considered lawful when there are non-combatants who did not flee the area of combat - or worse - non-combatants held hostage by the enemy.


Doesn't sound very collective.

You are only allowed to kill someone if it is very obvious that he's about to kill you and you have no other way to save your life other than by killing him.

The "very obvious" and "no other way to save your life", is crucially important. If you fire artillery into a civilian area after a rocket is launched, maybe you'll hit the militant that fired the rocket, and maybe that will stop him killing someone in the future, but that is very far from "very obvious" and "no other way to save your life".

To my knowledge a good number, if not a majority of Israeli artillery and air attacks are done in retaliation to a rocket attack, meaning it cant even losely be classed as defence, since it won't stop the rockets that have been launched from killing anyone.

There's no case of self defense I wouldn't defend if it met the criteria this rabbi set out.

Of course I would add to this that its only okay to kill someone to save your life, if you can do it with the reasonable expectation that you won't kill any innocent people.

I.e. you can use a gun in a mall but not a rocket launcher.
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blackie

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #265 on: February 17, 2010, 11:30:00 PM »

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57988

Two Soldiers Wounded By Settlers In Yitzhar Settlement
 Thursday February 18, 2010 00:02


    Israeli sources reported Wednesday that a border-guard officer and an Israeli soldier were lightly wounded on Wednesday after a group of young Jewish settlers from the Yitzhar settlement, in the West Bank, hurled stones at them.

Israeli Ynet News reported that one of the soldiers needed to be hospitalized.

The army was conducting a drill in the settlement; the drill was meant to "counter attacks against the settlement”, and members of the local police took part in it.

The Ynet stated that some 30 young settlers, aged 16 – 17, including some masked settlers, attacked the soldiers and hurled stones and light bombs filled with paint.

The settlers also torched tires and punctured the tires of two Israeli military vehicles before shutting the electric gate of the settlement.

The attack angered army commanders who said that they were conducting a drill to protect the settlements in the West Bank, yet the soldiers were attacked by local settlers. The commanders described the attack as shameful.

Last week, the settlers attacked an army vehicle transporting two senior army commanders. The settlers hurled stones and paint cans at the vehicle.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #266 on: February 18, 2010, 01:44:30 AM »

now let's see the white phosphours rain down on the kibbutzim
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blackie

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #267 on: February 26, 2010, 01:39:54 PM »

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3854982,00.html

Goldstein legacy continues

Dozens of followers will gather Saturday to mark 16 years to Cave of the Patriarchs massacre that left 29 Muslim worshippers dead. 'We come here every year to show the Left that suppressing the Right will be met with opposition,' says editor of book about Goldstein

Shmulik Grossman
Published:    02.26.10, 14:44 / Israel News

On Saturday, as in every year, Baruch Goldstein followers will mark 16 years to the massacre of Muslim worshippers in the Cave of the Patriarchs. This year's timing is especially sensitive, as it comes amidst renewed tensions in Hebron following the government's announcement on the national heritage plan.

In the early hours of the morning, on Purim holiday, February 1994, he entered the Cave of the Patriarchs' Muslim complex while wearing IDF uniform, and slaughtered 29 Arab worshippers and injured 125 others.

A blow to the head with a fire extinguisher put an end to the massacre – and to his life. As years went by, his life and death became a myth among radical right-wing circles. "He knew that Jewish blood was about to be shed, and so he protected his own people. Perhaps some were innocent – but war is war," says Itamar Ben Gvir in an attempt to rationalize the unthinkable act.

"We come here every year to show the Left that suppressing the Right will be met with opposition," said Michael Ben-Horin, who edited a book about Goldstein titled "Baruch Hagever." Recently, the book marked a victory when the District Court ruled that "Lauding Goldstein does not constitute incitement" – a decision that was not appealed by the state.

Ben-Horin, who has never hesitated to speak freely, was convinced of his hero's virtue: "He prevented a large massacre in Hebron's Jewish settlement, and we visit his grave in order to implicitly say – Jewish lives are not disposable."

Paradoxically, Goldstein's followers credit the Left with establishing their hero's fame. They are especially "thankful" to former MK Ran Cohen (Meretz), who initiated a law to evacuate Goldstein's burial site that was built by his family members.

"He only strengthened what many already admired about him," said right-wing activist Noam Federman, "Six years after the incident, the state and the Left removed all the symbols that gave the burial site the character of a memorial monument. Many Jews saw it as an attempt to squash the memory of a man who prevented a Jewish massacre in Hebron."

Former Knesset Member Ran Cohen (Meretz) says that "what members of Kach built was no less than a monument to commemorate a nefarious crime." The bill he legislated, Cohen explained, prevented teens from gathering at the site and getting educated to follow Goldstein's way. "Their aim was to educate to terror. The phenomenon surrounding Goldstein brings to mind a crazy ritual. This whole practice is criminal and is being portrayed as having a Jewish spirit," he said.

"All these insane 'Goldsteinites' are enemies of Israel and belong to a strand that is by and large anti-Zionist. Whoever enters a synagogue in Jericho during a period of calm and provokes hatred and hostile activity is a terrorist – and the state should treat them accordingly," Cohen adds.
 
Criticism not only from Left

Peace Now member Hagit Ofran claimed that Goldstein's followers who uproot trees as part of their struggle over control of West Bank lands, represent the "ugly Jew" and reaches new levels of a moral low. "Those who praise terror acts and call for the slaughter of innocents symbolize everything that is evil and cowardly in our country," Ofran said.

Peace Now is not the only one spewing criticism at Goldstein admirers. Realistic Religious Zionism member Yonatan Urich says that "very few normative people will show support for an act like the one perpetrated by Goldstein, but on the other hand, they do not explicitly condemn his actions either," he said.

Urich adds that he often hears comments such as "Goldstein was a saint, but did unthinkable actions." According to the same logic, Urich noted, "One can assume Stalin was a nice guy who did horrible things."

Goldstein's burial site has become a sort of spiritual center, where barren women and sick people come in order to ask for remedy. However, far-right activists reject this notion, claiming it resembles "Pagan practices."
 
Either way, if weather conditions allow, dozens of followers will visit Goldstein's grave on Saturday, where they will celebrate the memory of a man responsible for the lives of 29 Muslim worshippers and the further escalation of the conflict in Hebron. Police said they are prepared for the possibility of riots breaking out throughout the city, especially given this year's sensitive timing.
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blackie

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #268 on: February 26, 2010, 02:06:12 PM »

I found this interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre

The first suicide bombing carried out by Palestinian militants was launched by Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades in 1994, in retaliation for the massacre carried out by Goldstein.[42] Eight people were killed and 34 wounded in the attack which took place in Afula on April 6, 1994, at the end of the forty day mourning period for Goldstein's victims.[43]
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avshae

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Re: Israeli settlers are terrorists?
« Reply #269 on: February 26, 2010, 05:44:48 PM »

I found this interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Abraham_massacre

The first suicide bombing carried out by Palestinian militants was launched by Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades in 1994, in retaliation for the massacre carried out by Goldstein.[42] Eight people were killed and 34 wounded in the attack which took place in Afula on April 6, 1994, at the end of the forty day mourning period for Goldstein's victims.[43]

It is customary for Arab terrorist groups in the middle east to attribute any attack (suicide bombing or other) as a "retaliation". They won't go out and say "its a fine day to go out and target some Israeli civilians". It's always "in response" to this or that event or commemoration. These attacks are often planned months ahead of time, and the actual timing depends upon when they are able to overcome security and cause the most carnage, nothing else. After the attack has taken place they go on the media and declare that it is in retaliation to this or that event that just happened to have taken place recently. Groups like Hamas constantly and relentlessly seek to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible, "retaliation" is just a false premise.
It even says in the source you referenced above that at the time of the "Cave of the Patriarchs" massacre:
Quote
"... warnings were issued regarding an expected attack by Hamas following the distribution of its leaflets in Hebron."

Besides, Cave of the Patriarchs was the ONLY case of Jewish suicide-bomber ever. One man acted alone and his action was harshly condemned by almost all Israeli society. So if Hamas' first suicide attack was "in retaliation" to Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, than what were all their other hundreds of suicide bombing attacks in retaliation for?


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