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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: avshae on May 09, 2009, 01:23:10 PM
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Wafaa Younis, an Arab-Israeli musician, started teaching kids in Jenin to play the violin and other musical instruments, and formed an orchestra. Kids off the street holding violin bows instead of Molotoff cocktails, sounds good doesn't it? Apparently some parents in Jenin still think their kids should be doing after-school activities that don't include wearing explosive vests. The orchestra was apparently very successful, and recently they were set to play in Israel in a concert promoting peace. Read here how the Palestinian Authority treated Wafaa and her orchestra.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/03/30/1870536.aspx (http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/03/30/1870536.aspx)
Kinda makes you wonder, what kind of a state are they planning to run over there once they are free of the so-called Israeli "oppression".
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and recently they were set to play in Israel in a concert promoting peace.
They played the concert. It was only after the concert that the issue came up. Pretty sad.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073846.html
Palestinian children sing for Holocaust survivors
By The Associated Press
The Palestinian youths from a tough West Bank refugee camp stood facing the elderly Holocaust survivors on Wednesday, appearing somewhat defiant in a teenage sort of way. Then they began to sing.
The choir burst into songs for peace, bringing surprised smiles from the audience. But the event had another twist: Most of the Holocaust survivors did not know the youths were Palestinians from the West Bank, a rare sight in Israel these days. And the youths had no idea they were performing for people who lived through Nazi genocide - or even what the Holocaust was.
"I feel sympathy for them," said Ali Zeid, an 18-year-old keyboard player, who added that he was shocked by what he learned about the Holocaust, in which the Nazis killed 6 million Jews in their campaign to wipe out European Jewry.
"Only people who have been through suffering understand each other," said Zeid, who said his grandparents were Palestinian refugees forced to flee the northern city of Haifa during the war that followed Israel's creation in 1948.
The 13 musicians, aged 11 to 18, belong to Strings of Freedom, a modest orchestra from the Jenin refugee camp in the northern West Bank, the scene of a deadly 2002 battle between Palestinian militants and Israeli soldiers.
The event, held at the Holocaust Survivors Center in this tree-lined central Israeli town, was part of Good Deeds Day, an annual event run by an organization connected to billionaire Shari Arison, Israel's richest woman.
The two-hour meeting starkly highlighted how distant Palestinians and Israelis have become after more than eight years of bloody Palestinian militant attacks and deadly Israeli military reprisals.
Most of the Palestinian youths had not seen an Israeli civilian before - only gun-toting soldiers in military uniforms manning checkpoints, conducting arrest raids of wanted Palestinians or during army operations.
"They don't look like us," said Ahed Salameh, 12, who wore a black head scarf woven with silver.
Most of the elderly Israelis wore pants and T-shirts, with women sporting a smear of lipstick.
"Old people look different where we come from," Salameh said.
She said she was shocked to hear about the Nazi genocide against Jews. Ignorance and even denial of the Holocaust is widespread in Palestinian society.
Amnon Beeri of the Abraham Fund, which supports coexistence between Jews and Arabs, said most of the region's residents have no real idea about the other.
The youths said their feisty conductor, Wafa Younis, 50, tried to explain to them who the elderly people were, but chaos on the bus prevented them from listening.
The elderly audience said they assumed Arab children were from a nearby village - not from the refugee camp where 23 Israeli soldiers were killed, alongside 53 Palestinian militants and civilians, in several days of battle in April 2002.
Some 30 elderly survivors gathered in the center's hall as teenage boys and girls filed in 30 minutes late - delayed at an Israeli military checkpoint outside their town, they later explained.
Some of the young women wore Muslim head scarves - but also sunglasses and school ties.
As a host announced in Hebrew that the youths were from the Jenin refugee camp, there were gasps and muttering from the crowd. "Jenin?" one woman asked in jaw-dropped surprise.
Younis, from the Arab village of Ara in Israel, then explained in fluent Hebrew that the youths would sing for peace, prompting the audience to burst into applause.
"Inshallah," said Sarah Glickman, 68, using the Arabic term for God willing.
The encounter began with an Arabic song, "We sing for peace," and was followed by two musical pieces with violins and Arabic drums, as well as an impromptu song in Hebrew by two in the audience.
Glickman, whose family moved to the newly created Jewish state in 1949 after fleeing to Siberia to escape the Nazis, said she had no illusions the encounter would make the children understand the Holocaust. But she said it might make a small difference.
"They think we are strangers, because we came from abroad," Glickman said. "I agree: It's their land, also. But there was no other option for us after the Holocaust."
Later, she tapped her feet in tune as the teenagers played a catchy Mideast drum beat. After the event, some of the elderly Israelis chatted with students and took pictures together.
The encounter was not absent of politics. Younis dedicated a song to an Israeli soldier held captive by Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip - and also criticized Israel's occupation of the West Bank.
But she said the main mission of the orchestra, formed seven years ago to help Palestinian children overcome war trauma, was to bring people together.
"I'm here to raise spirits," Younis said. "These are poor, old people."
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The Holocaust is a particularly sensitive subject for Palestinians. There is widespread ignorance of the details of the atrocities committed by the Nazis against Jews during World War II and there is a sense among many Palestinians that why should they care about Jewish suffering more than 60 years ago when Israelis don’t seem to care about the suffering they are causing Palestinians today.
I wonder how Jews at Nazi camps felt about the Jewish musicians who played as fellow Jews were herded into the gas chambers? Many felt they were collaborating with the enemy.
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There is no comparison between Gaza and Judea-Samaria Arab population's plight today and the Jewish Holocaust in WWII. Trying to do so is completely baseless, grossly misleading, and can only fool only the ignorant.
In any case, when the PA closes down projects like this you just know they aren't heading anywhere good. Its not as if children in Jenin have a whole lot of other alternatives. The only thing keeping Judea-Samaria from becoming another Gaza is Israel's presence there.
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There is no comparison between Gaza and Judea-Samaria Arab population's plight today and the Jewish Holocaust in WWII. Trying to do so is completely baseless, grossly misleading, and can only fool only the ignorant.
In any case, when the PA closes down projects like this you just know they aren't heading anywhere good. Its not as if children in Jenin have a whole lot of other alternatives. The only thing keeping Judea-Samaria from becoming another Gaza is Israel's presence there.
Why because the Zionist are slowly starving out the Palestinians rather than building gas chambers and ovens. It is still genocide to cut off territories from free trade with other nations. The West Bank and the Gaza are both under siege by Israel. Israel has been sanctioned by the UN over 60 times for their war crimes. Of course the USA whose lawmakers have been bought off by Israel vetoed them. The Palestinians have zero sanctions brought against them.
1. Resolution 106: "...condemns Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...condemns Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...recommends Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...urges Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...censures Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...urges Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "...condemns Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "...calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "...deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "...condemns Israeli raids on Jordan as flagrant violation"
13. Resolution 259: "...deplores Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...condemns Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "...condemns Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...censures Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...condemns Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...condemns Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...demands withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "...condemns Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...demands immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...deplores Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...demands that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...condemns Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...deplores Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...condemns Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...condemns Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...calls on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon"
31. Resolution 444: "...deplores Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...determines that Israeli settlements are a serious obstruction to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...calls on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...calls on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...deplores Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...strongly deplores Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...strongly deplores Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians"
39. Resolution 471: "...expresses deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "...reiterates that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are null and void"
41. Resolution 478: "...censures (Israel) in the strongest terms for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...declares it imperative that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is null and void and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...calls on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...calls on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...demands that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...demands that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...censures Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...demands that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...condemns Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...condemns Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters"
53. Resolution 587: "...takes note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...strongly deplores the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
55. Resolution 605: "...strongly deplores Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians"
56. Resolution 607: "...calls on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
57. Resolution 608: "...deeply regrets that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...deeply regrets Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians"
59. Resolution 641: "...deplores Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians"
60. Resolution 672: "...condemns Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount"
61. Resolution 673: "...deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations"
62. Resolution 681: "...deplores Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians"
63. Resolution 694: "...deplores Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return"
64. Resolution 726: "...strongly condemns Israel's deportation of Palestinians"
65. Resolution 799: "...strongly condemns Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return."
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lol @ quoting the UN which is run by 3rd world dictators and funded by the US.
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There is no comparison between Gaza and Judea-Samaria Arab population's plight today and the Jewish Holocaust in WWII. Trying to do so is completely baseless, grossly misleading, and can only fool only the ignorant.
You're right.
(http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/40435B01-EB5B-40D3-8813-F4004CB1F18C/30605/image001.jpg)
Gaza ghetto wall. Gaza Security Fence.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Yz8UrquOEG8/R5dglkBsqaI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/ufdjMM7M4Xk/s320/WarsawGhetto_wall.JPG)
Warsaw Security Fence. Warsaw Ghetto Wall.
The walls the Nazi's built where much smaller than the ones Israel built. HOW DARE ANYONE COMPARE THE TWO!
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lol @ quoting the UN which is run by 3rd world dictators and funded by the US.
True enough but no other third party is bothering to document the abuses, do you expect the USA or Israel to admit to what is going on? Just because a bunch of thugs say the sky is blue doesn't make it untrue. And for clarification that is the list from 1955 til 1992 there have been many additions. This is a link to a list of the US Vetoes of UN in favor of Israel. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html) Please note this is from a Jewish run group that is pro Israel. They are happily putting this information out there. Like the US vetoed the resolution on Israeli forces intentionally bombing a UN food warehouse and killing a UN worker and the murder of several other UN Workers by Israeli forces. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf) How sick is that and they wonder why starving people who are imprisoned should throw stones or make improvised weapons in an attempt to defend themselves. Saddam Hussein didn't have any UN workers or inspectors killed and the USA rained all kinds of shit down on Iraq.
http://withstringsattached.org/ (http://withstringsattached.org/) This is another Jewish group that is calling out for peace in the area. All such groups are constantly harassed and threatened not from Palestinians but from the Israeli government. And getting back to the original idea that Palestinians shouldn't have self rule because they don't want some of their children being performing monkeys for the amusement of Israelis.
Kinda makes you wonder, what kind of a state are they planning to run over there once they are free of the so-called Israeli "oppression".
Kinda know the kind of murderous state the Israelis are actually running now so shouldn't their government be overturned? And being a democracy doesn't make it a just and fair government. Hitler won 98% of the vote to get into office doesn't mean he wasn't evil bastard.
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Hitler won 98% of the vote to get into office doesn't mean he wasn't evil bastard.
Uh, when was that exactly?
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Little gaza boy....
Playin in the gaza streets....
Whatcha' gonna do when you grow up....
And have to face responsibility....
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There is no comparison between Gaza and Judea-Samaria Arab population's plight today and the Jewish Holocaust in WWII. Trying to do so is completely baseless, grossly misleading, and can only fool only the ignorant.
In any case, when the PA closes down projects like this you just know they aren't heading anywhere good. Its not as if children in Jenin have a whole lot of other alternatives. The only thing keeping Judea-Samaria from becoming another Gaza is Israel's presence there.
Why because the Zionist are slowly starving out the Palestinians rather than building gas chambers and ovens.
How can you call a 5% annual reproduction rate starving? How can you call supplying them with electricity, fuel, food and goods, plus allowing in aid, despite Hamas open hostile intentions toward Israel, starving? That is simply ludicrous. If Israel really wanted to starve Gaza it would be possible to do it within days.
It is still genocide to cut off territories from free trade with other nations.
First of all, no its not. And second, Israel is at war with Hamas who rules Gaza. It is perfectly legitimate for Israel to seek to prevent transport of anything it sees fit into and out of Gaza. And third, they have nothing to trade except Qassam rockets and suicide bombers. Do you know anyone who wants any?
Israel has been sanctioned by the UN over 60 times for their war crimes. Of course the USA whose lawmakers have been bought off by Israel vetoed them. The Palestinians have zero sanctions brought against them.
First of all, since the PA is not a member of the UN but only an observer, it is not possible to sanction or target a resolution against it. Be a good researcher and check how many western states regard Hamas as a terrorist organization.
And second, the UN is an organization where:
1) it is acceptable for an Arab to be Secretary-General, even though the region is in conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boutros_Boutros-Ghali)
2) Arab states in conflict with Israel can be members of the security council passing resolutions against Israel (http://www.un.org/sc/searchres_sc_members_english.asp?sc_members=148)
3) simply that there is only one Israel yet at least 30 Muslim countries that each get to vote,
then naturally Israel rarely gets a fair hand in the UN. When the US vetoes anti-Israeli propositions it is merely to counter the UN's inherent bias against Israel.
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There is no comparison between Gaza and Judea-Samaria Arab population's plight today and the Jewish Holocaust in WWII. Trying to do so is completely baseless, grossly misleading, and can only fool only the ignorant.
You're right.
(http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/40435B01-EB5B-40D3-8813-F4004CB1F18C/30605/image001.jpg)
Gaza ghetto wall. Gaza Security Fence.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Yz8UrquOEG8/R5dglkBsqaI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/ufdjMM7M4Xk/s320/WarsawGhetto_wall.JPG)
Warsaw Security Fence. Warsaw Ghetto Wall.
The walls the Nazi's built where much smaller than the ones Israel built. HOW DARE ANYONE COMPARE THE TWO!
More cheap demagogy.
China built a wall to defend against Mongolian intrusion, do you also compare them to the Nazis?
What about all these guys (http://images.google.co.il/images?rlz=1C1GGLS_enIL303IL303&sourceid=chrome&q=wall&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=iw&tab=wi), are they Nazis too?
The Aparterrorism wall, as I like to call it, was built for the sole purpose of keeping suicide bombers out of Israel, and it is very effective at that. If you favor peace then you should favor this wall, as cessation of hostilities will never be possible unless extremist terrorists are prevented from blowing up buses and cafes in Israel.
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Like the US vetoed the resolution on Israeli forces intentionally bombing a UN food warehouse and killing a UN worker and the murder of several other UN Workers by Israeli forces. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf)
Have you noticed that you referenced the Syrian draft for the resolution? I wonder whether there was an Israeli draft for that resolution.
Hitler won 98% of the vote to get into office doesn't mean he wasn't evil bastard.
Mega-False. Get you facts right or else you can't fool anyone but the ignorant.
The rest of your claims I have more or less addressed in previous posts.
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Like the US vetoed the resolution on Israeli forces intentionally bombing a UN food warehouse and killing a UN worker and the murder of several other UN Workers by Israeli forces. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf)
Have you noticed that you referenced the Syrian draft for the resolution? I wonder whether there was an Israeli draft for that resolution.
Why would a Jewish site run by Jews not include an Israeli draft? You might want to ask the webmaster for that site that question. It seemed sufficient for the group that posted it.
Hitler won 98% of the vote to get into office doesn't mean he wasn't evil bastard.
Mega-False. Get you facts right or else you can't fool anyone but the ignorant.
The rest of your claims I have more or less addressed in previous posts.
Suck it you are wrong. Hitler was elected leader when Austria agreed to become part of Germany and allow Hitler to be their leader. In that election he won 98% of the vote. When he came to power in Germany his party won the majority with 33% of the vote it was later that he used Nazi held seats to change the German constitution and make himself dictator. So democracy isn't all it is cracked up to be because it is easy for evil people to actually win elections and take over countries.
How Austria was taken over by Hitler
The Following Letter Was Originally Posted in the Worldtlk echo by Steve Davis
What I'm about to tell you is something you've probably never read, or will ever read in history books. I believe that I'm an eyewitness to history. I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history. We elected Hitler by 98% of the vote. I've never read that in any American publication. Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria over.
In 1938, Austria was in deep depression. We had nearly one third of our workforce unemployed, 25% inflation, and a 25% interest rate from banks. Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy every day. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn't want to work, but there simply wasn't any work. My mother was a very devout woman who believed that you have to help the people in need. I remember she had a big kettle of soup every day, on the stove, and we baked bread to feed those poor hungry people, about thirty each day.
The Communist Party and the National Socialist Party were fighting each other. Blocks and blocks of cities like Vienna, Lenzt, and Grotz were being destroyed. The people became desperate, and petitioned the government to let the people decide what kind of government they wanted. We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been in power since 1933. We had been told that they didn't have unemployment or crime. But they did have a high living standard. There was nothing being said of persecution of anyone, Jewish or otherwise, just that every one was happy. We wanted the same thing for Austria. We were promised that if we would vote for Hitler, everyone would be employed in two or three weeks, and he would help the family. He also said that businesses would be helped. And the farmers would get their farms back.
98% of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany, and have Hitler be our ruler.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stations/HeadingLeft/wakeupcallshow/blog/2008/09/22/THE-OLD-AND-NEW-HITLER-HAVE-YOU-EVER-REALLY-REVIEWED-THE-HISTORY-AND-COMPARED-TO-CURRENT-USA (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stations/HeadingLeft/wakeupcallshow/blog/2008/09/22/THE-OLD-AND-NEW-HITLER-HAVE-YOU-EVER-REALLY-REVIEWED-THE-HISTORY-AND-COMPARED-TO-CURRENT-USA)
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Like the US vetoed the resolution on Israeli forces intentionally bombing a UN food warehouse and killing a UN worker and the murder of several other UN Workers by Israeli forces. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/veto121902.pdf)
Have you noticed that you referenced the Syrian draft for the resolution? I wonder whether there was an Israeli draft for that resolution.
Why would a Jewish site run by Jews not include an Israeli draft? You might want to ask the webmaster for that site that question. It seemed sufficient for the group that posted it.
Why did they not use the Israeli draft? Because there is no Israeli draft, Israel has never been a member of the UN security council, the bulk of Arab and Muslim states in the UN assembly would never approve it. Syria however, in major conflict with Israel for decades, has been on the security council quite a few times. In light of that information is it any wonder that the US vetoes such resolution drafts which SYRIA INITIATES?
Hitler won 98% of the vote to get into office doesn't mean he wasn't evil bastard.
Mega-False. Get you facts right or else you can't fool anyone but the ignorant.
The rest of your claims I have more or less addressed in previous posts.
Suck it you are wrong. Hitler was elected leader when Austria agreed to become part of Germany and allow Hitler to be their leader. In that election he won 98% of the vote. When he came to power in Germany his party won the majority with 33% of the vote it was later that he used Nazi held seats to change the German constitution and make himself dictator. So democracy isn't all it is cracked up to be because it is easy for evil people to actually win elections and take over countries.
How Austria was taken over by Hitler
The Following Letter Was Originally Posted in the Worldtlk echo by Steve Davis
...
98% of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany, and have Hitler be our ruler.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stations/HeadingLeft/wakeupcallshow/blog/2008/09/22/THE-OLD-AND-NEW-HITLER-HAVE-YOU-EVER-REALLY-REVIEWED-THE-HISTORY-AND-COMPARED-TO-CURRENT-USA (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stations/HeadingLeft/wakeupcallshow/blog/2008/09/22/THE-OLD-AND-NEW-HITLER-HAVE-YOU-EVER-REALLY-REVIEWED-THE-HISTORY-AND-COMPARED-TO-CURRENT-USA)
Be careful which well you drink from. You have quoted a second-hand blog which features labels such as "heading left", "history with a concentration on black America", and the title "THE OLD AND NEW HITLER - HAVE YOU EVER REALLY REVIEWED THE HISTORY AND COMPARED TO CURRENT USA" (Capital letters left untouched). This second-hand blog quotes a letter posted by a guy on some other second-hand blog. Allow me to doubt the validity of that source.
On the other hand, many sources which I consider more reliable say that Hitler took over Austria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler)
http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa090399.htm (http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa090399.htm)
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/austria.htm (http://www.thirdreichruins.com/austria.htm)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_hitler_take_over_Austria (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_hitler_take_over_Austria)
Some of these sources mention that after Hitler took over Austria, the unification was approved by popular vote. And one source does mention that the popular vote was won by 98%. Now lets think a bit shall we? 98% in a democratic vote, that seems a bit landslide. Was there ever a president in the US or a referendum in any democratic country that got 98%? Of course not, because the Austrian vote to approve Hitlers annexation of Austria was most likely bogus. Only dictators "win" "elections" in such numbers. See the following sources:
Saddam Hussein won a "democratic" election (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2331951.stm)
So did Syrian President Hafez Al-Assad (http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0292/9202017.html)
Dictators use referendums too (http://ratchasima.net/2007/05/04/dictators-use-referendums-too/), with my favorite quote: "Adolf Hitler employed many of [such] methods, including referendum, to obtain his objectives."
Is it any wonder to you why no one seems to recall this piece of "information"?
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Apparently some parents in Jenin still think their kids should be doing after-school activities that don't include wearing explosive vests.
Where else are they going to get cannon foder
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Whatever
avshae Israeli apologist. The point is that Hitler was democratically elected can't erase that fact. And it proves that democracy on its own is not a moral objective. Even if it was a moral objective Palestinians are not allowed a vote in the Israeli apartheid system. A system which is being used to cut them off from free trade and slowly starving them out, acts of genocide. So to hold Israel up as some sort of democratic moral good is just about as worthless as saying the Nazis were fair to Jews in Germany because they came to power in democratic elections. What they did after that democratic election and the legitimacy or illegitimacy of subsequent votes or lack there of is irrelevant and only serves to obscure the point. The point being democracy isn't a moral objective it just happens to be what the mob wants at any given point in time.
Also irrelevant the factoid that if Israel wanted to cut off Gaza and the West Bank they could starve out the population in weeks. An overt act like that might actually wake up people to the abuses which the Gaza and West Bank are being subjected to on a daily basis by the Israel. My point is that they are doing it slowly, a 5% reduction in population just proves that they are being killed off albeit at only a rate of 5% hence the term slowly. And you said it yourself that the rate was 5%. I also noticed you didn't deny that a UN food warehouse was blown up by Israeli forces or that UN workers were killed by Israeli forces. You just attacked the source of the information but not the lack of truthfulness of the allegations. I suppose you will deny that Israeli forces are plowing down thousand year old date farms and demolishing homes and businesses in what are suppose to be sovereign Palestinian territories. An area that you claim is under Palestinian rule. I find it very doubtful Palestinian leaders would say come on in Israel demolish our farms and homes. As an added bonus create several internal checkpoints with your occupying forces and keep our citizens from being able to travel freely within their own sovereign territory. The point is it is a major lie to say that the Palestinians have any sovereign territory and can engage in free trade with other nations. What Israel can't blockade or cutoff via land locking they accomplish through military intimidation of potential trading partners.
Seriously the only way for their to be peace in the area is to allow the freedom of movement of people and goods into the currently occupied territories. They need to have independent water rights and not being dependent on Israel, which has a history of cutting off water and sewage. Even if Israel doesn't allow Palestinians entry into Israel but lets neighboring countries know they won't be bombed by Israel should they do business with the Palestinians could start to mend bridges. Without these rights it is very doubtful there will be peace. And the starving oppressed children of Palestine will see suicide bombing as their only recourse against an tyrannical state bent on their genocide. The same options which were chosen over a generation ago by Warsaw Ghetto residents when faced with similar circumstances.
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Seriously the only way for their to be peace in the area is to allow the freedom of movement of people and goods into the currently occupied territories. They need to have independent water rights and not being dependent on Israel, which has a history of cutting off water and sewage. Even if Israel doesn't allow Palestinians entry into Israel but lets neighboring countries know they won't be bombed by Israel should they do business with the Palestinians could start to mend bridges. Without these rights it is very doubtful there will be peace.
word
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In recent news: trolls are still very well-fed.
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Whatever avshae Israeli apologist.
How eloquent, I'm impressed.
The point is that Hitler was democratically elected can't erase that fact.
As I have already described in detail,
FALSE. FALSE. FALSE.
Palestinians are not allowed a vote in the Israeli ...
Neither are Israelis allowed to vote in the PA. You see, each citizen votes in his own authority. French people vote in France, and German people vote in Germany. And Palestinians vote in the PA, its very simple.
How can you call a 5% annual reproduction rate starving?
My point is that they are doing it slowly, a 5% reduction in population just proves that they are being killed off albeit at only a rate of 5% hence the term slowly. And you said it yourself that the rate was 5%.
reproduction, meaning increase not reduction. +5% each year. Get it?
I also noticed you didn't deny that a UN food warehouse was blown up by Israeli forces or that UN workers were killed by Israeli forces. You just attacked the source of the information but not the lack of truthfulness of the allegations.
You made no such allegation, so I didn't deny anything. Save your last ounce of dignity and at least agree with me that a Syrian draft in the UN cannot be considered a credible source.
I suppose you will deny that Israeli forces are plowing down thousand year old date farms
There are no "thousand year old farms" in Gaza nor in Judea-Samaria. Since all of the regions inhabitants are recent immigrants. And older Arab people were Bedouins (desert nomads).
and demolishing homes and businesses in what are suppose to be sovereign Palestinian territories.
specifically if Hamas used them as military infrastructure during a war.
Even if Israel doesn't allow Palestinians entry into Israel but lets neighboring countries know they won't be bombed by Israel should they do business with the Palestinians could start to mend bridges.
You just crack me up. Israel bombs neighboring countries for doing business with the Palestinians? What are you on?
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From the Historical Atlas of the Twentieth Century
Q: Was Hitler democratically elected as Chancellor of Germany in 1933?
A: Yes. Of course he was.
However, because the office of Chancellor was not filled by popular election, it might be more accurate to say that Hitler was constitutionally chosen to be the Chancellor of Germany, a democratic nation. The point is, there was nothing about Hitler's appointment as Chancellor (30 Jan. 1933) which violated the Constitution of Germany. President Hindenburg legally selected the leader of the largest party in Parliament to head up a coalition government. It has happened hundreds of times throughout history without being considered undemocratic.
Only in light of later events does it become obvious that this was the beginning of the end of democratic rule in Germany. If Hitler had suddenly died in office before the Reichtag Fire (27 Feb. 1933) gave him the excuse to crush the opposition, history would record the uninterrupted flow of democracy in Germany in 1933. Granted, the window of opportunity for Hitler to leave a legacy as a proper democrat was only open for a single month, but that could have been enough.
The myth that Hitler slipped into power by way of an illegal backroom deal which bypassed the constitution is more comforting than considering that maybe laws and democratic constitutions are not foolproof safeguards against the emergence of tyrants. If a constitutionally valid plurality want tyranny, they'll get it.
BTW Wikipedia is not accepted as a source at any reputable University I know of, so quoting them as a source is completely invalid.
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When I say Palestinians are not allowed to vote in Israel. I mean Palestinians who are living in Israeli territories are not allowed to vote in Israel it is an Apartheid system. And saying that the Palestinians can vote in their own territories, for governments which have no power to remove Israeli forces from their streets, homes and lives. It is about as valid as saying under German occupation the French were allowed to vote for the Vichy government during WWII so therefore they must be free. Or how about the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were allowed to vote for their representatives so they must have been free as well. Equally the argument that the West Bank and Gaza are free to hold their own elections and free in their own territories is ridiculous.
[youtube=425,350]v/lSp-oIOhq00[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSp-oIOhq00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSp-oIOhq00)
http://www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
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And foreigners who live in America aren't allowed to vote either. That's not apartheid.
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And foreigners who live in America aren't allowed to vote either. That's not apartheid.
Not talking about foreigners either. They are citizens of Israel! Arab Israelis are Palestinians who live in Israel and are citizens in Israel. They are not allowed to vote in Israels national elections. They do not have equal rights period. It is an Apartheid system. If you are Arab even as a citizen of Israel you can not purchase homes or lands from a Jewish Israelis by law. If you are an Arab citizen of Israel you have to pay on a different schedule for basic necessities like water and sewage by law. And no Arab Israelis are not a different ethnic group from Palestinians, it is a designation given by Israel for Palestinians who are citizens of Israel. If you asked an Arab Israeli are they Palestinian, unless you are an Israeli they will tell you yes.
Israel is engaging in systematic ethnic cleansing which is one of the planks of genocide. And people wonder why maybe just maybe many of the oppressed don't want their fellows to play music for their oppressors and pretend they aren't being victimized.
[youtube=425,350]v/JIudn8-jJJw[/youtube]
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Until the Palestinians either fuck off & live in Jordon or get with reality & realise Israel ain't their's to dictate this shit is jst going to rumble on
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Israeli Arabs are allowed to vote in national elections. And they do. And there are several Israeli Arabs (what you keep referring to as Palestinians) in the Knesset (Parliament). :shock:
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I'll try to as brief as I can:
Palestinians who are living in Israeli territories are not allowed to vote in Israel
False.
If you are Arab even as a citizen of Israel you can not purchase homes or lands from a Jewish Israelis by law.
False.
If you are an Arab citizen of Israel you have to pay on a different schedule for basic necessities like water and sewage by law.
False.
False buffer overflow. Exiting.
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You can say false all you want but Arabs in Israel are discriminated against in terms of access to land and the purchase of land by Israeli Law. It is a fact so choke on it.
Palestinian leaders are hardly alone in claiming that the land "always goes from Arabs to the Jews." Many journalists and commentators have found Israel's policies to be discriminatory. These, they variously charged, bar non-Jews from leasing, or buying, or even accessing, most or all of the land in Israel.
The original formulation of this argument would seem to be by Walter Lehn, a professor of linguistics then at the University of Minnesota, who contended in a 1974 article in the Journal of Palestine Studies that
the [Israeli] state under colour of law effectively prevents any non-Jew from leasing or holding any rights ... to 90 percent of the land in Israel.
Lehn's argument found a willing audience, and has been widely repeated by academics writing both for professional and lay readers. For example, Zachary Lockman, then a Harvard history professor, contended in a 1988 letter to The New York Times that
some 92 percent of Israel's land area is administered in accordance with ... [regulations which] prohibit these lands from being purchased, leased or worked by Arab citizens of Israel.
More recently, speaking on National Public Radio's All Things Considered, William Quandt of the University of Virginia charged that
Israel was established as a state for Jews. It has of course an Arab minority who have citizenship rights, but the specific way in which land is owned in Israel is predominantly that the Jewish Agency purchases land on behalf of the Jewish people and then leases it out to its Jewish citizens.
Arabs cannot have access to that land that's owned by the Jewish Agency. They can keep land they have privately owned before the State of Israel was created. There's a small amount of private property that can be traded and Arabs can buy that as well as Jews, but most land is held in trust for the Jewish people, so yes there is a legal basis for what we would flat out call discriminatory practices.
Rashid Khalidi, director of the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago and president of the American Committee on Jerusalem, repeats the same argument, saying that in Jerusalem
non-Jews are barred by law from purchasing or leasing most properties (Jewish National Fund property, "state land," and land under control of the Custodian of "Absentee" Property—i.e., stolen Arab land).
Journalists picked this argument up from academics. The Washington Post's Barton Gellman reported that because
the Zionists devised formal and informal mechanisms to prevent Arabs from acquiring Jewish land that persist today ...
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No not all Israeli Arabs are entitled to vote. Again you are the one who is misleading people.
Q. Are Israeli Arabs entitled to vote?
All Arab citizens of Israel can vote in national
elections and stand for the Israeli Knesset.
However, there are over 70,000 Israeli Arabs living
within villages in Israel that remain unrecognized
by the government who therefore cannot vote in
municipal elections.
These Israeli Arabs in their unrecognised villages
have few, if any, amenities provided by the state.
http://www.caabu.org/pdf/Israeli-Arabs-final.pdf
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House demolitions have nothing to do with HAMAS
House Demolitions
House demolitions in the Arab sector are linked to
the state’s policy of large-scale confiscation of land
and to restrictive planning regulations.
• These regulations have led many Israeli Arabs
to build their homes without permits. These
homes are frequently demolished
• Even though violations of planning and building
regulations are also widespread in the Jewish
sector, they are rarely punished with the same
severity.
• In 2003, the Government destroyed over 35
Bedouin houses, a mosque, 13 shops and a
water container in the unrecognised villages
• There have also been cases of Israeli airplanes,
accompanied by police forces & other security
forces, spraying chemical herbicide on houses
and crops in unrecognized villages in the
Negev.
Same British source as previously stated.
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Funny thing is, the Bedouins tend to support Israel, especially when compared to other "Arab" nations. It appears that you're siting out of context eminent domain issues (yes eminent domain blows, not gonna argue that) and claiming that they're racially based.
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Funny thing is, the Bedouins tend to support Israel, especially when compared to other "Arab" nations. It appears that you're siting out of context eminent domain issues (yes eminent domain blows, not gonna argue that) and claiming that they're racially based.
Please then point out when if ever a privately owned piece of Jewish land in Israel has been taken by eminent domain for the benefit of Israeli Arabs? You won't find it. On paper is a far cry from in practice and in practice Arabs are denied equal rights. Even if they are considered Israeli citizens. It isn't so much as eminent domain as unequal application of laws. Arabs are denied building permits on their own homes and lands. So if they repair something on their property they are charged with building without a permit. This is when the Israeli government comes in and demolishes the whole house. It is intentionally done to harass and impoverish Israeli Arabs. Arab farmers have had their entire fields plowed under just before harvest the land wasn't taken via eminent domain the crop was simply destroyed. Why to harass and impoverish as part of state sponsored terrorism by the Israeli government.
How about the right of return. Any Jew no mater what ethnicity or country of origin or if they have even one single relative in Israel can immigrate. Yet if an Israeli Arab marries a Palestinian they can not get a visa for their spouse to enter Israel. And since you Israeli apologist with say this is false I will provide the documentation up front.
INTERNATIONAL (may 17, 2006)
Israeli Arabs protest immigration law
DAN BARON http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=575 (Please note source is a Jewish
paper so it has the prerequisite apologies for Israeli racism.)
JERUSALEM – Israeli Arabs are upset after Israel’s top court upheld a controversial
law that prevents Palestinians married to Israeli Arabs from living in Israel.
Extract from Blood and Religion
http://www.jkcook.net/Blood-and-Religion-Extract-1.pdf or http://www.jkcook.net
J K Cook is an independent British Journalist living and working in Israel.
the Law of Return. Passed in 1950,
two years after the establishment of the state....
It gives a right to every Jew in the world to migrate to
Israel and receive automatic citizenship while barring the return of
Palestinians.....It has eased the passage of some three
million Jews to Israel, and disinherited the 750,000 Palestinians who
were either expelled or terrorized out of the country under cover of
war, and millions of their descendants.
To say that Israeli Arabs have equal rights in Israel is so dishonest as to be laughable. Equally laughable is to say that Bedouins are under no duress or that their support of Israel is anything less than forced. Bedouins live under the same separate but very unequal treatment as other Arabs in Israeli territory. This is a blog link but it is linked to several articles on the subject of Israeli apartheid to include the treatment of Bedouins. http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/03/bedouin-victims-of-israeli-apartheid.html (http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/03/bedouin-victims-of-israeli-apartheid.html)
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Some people here seem to think they can find accurate information in radical second-hand blogs, sectoral third-rate newspapers, and "British" sources such as "the Council for Arab-British Understanding". Or maybe they don't even bother getting their data accurate, so long as they get to fill posts with their favorite words such as "Apartheid".
I won't bother, nor do I have the time, to dispute every single crude lie and obvious distortion that is written in this thread. After being caught several times with gross falsities, some people here would do better to think very carefully before continuing to babble additional nonsense.
Coming to the point, there is discrimination against minorities in Israel, just like there is discrimination against Blacks in the US, and indeed just as there is discrimination against just about any minority in the world. You can read a generally accurate summary of discrimination against Israeli-Arabs here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Discrimination).
Discrimination is being dealt with by authorities and lawmakers, although this process takes time. To understand how such discrimination came about you have to dive into the details and I don't have time, so I'll give just one example, regarding why Israeli-Arab municipalities have over the years been deprived of budget resources (if you compare on a per-capita basis).
Anyone who has done any kind of financial management knows that funds are given to you with respect to a detailed plan of how you intend to use them. Now if a municipality has no such plans, or has repeatedly broken its commitment to previous plans (.e.g. they were given money to build a school and instead of a school the money was "absorbed" into the bottomless pit of their municipal beaurocracy), naturally the responsible authority will be reluctant to continue granting funds which end up in corrupt hands greasing all the wrong places. Much better to give it to a neighboring municipality that actually gets the school built.
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And there it is. When credible evidence is given the sources are attacked. I suppose the UK paper The Daily Mail is now not credible source because of this article. Oh and wasn't it your charge that use of human shields was immoral in another thread. I guess it is only moral when Israelis do it. (http://i16.tinypic.com/4lqe2q0.jpg)
The suicide mission is nothing new. It is a tactic an act of desperation. When Zionist were still trying to take over before they had any army, they participated in what they called no escape missions, ie suicide missions of bombings intended to terrorize people out of their communities. The dead from these no escape missions, which is only a language trick so as to not call them suicide missions, are considered martyrs for the cause. There is a book which examines the use of suicide missions through out history by all kinds of different groups not just in the current middle eastern conflicts. Making sense of suicide missions By Diego Gambetta I site this information to counter the notion that suicide bombings are something new.
Although earlier agency reports mentioned at least 12 missing, the only fatality so far mentioned in the official version is the police officer. He was a demolition expert. Reuters in Jerusalem says that police and troops last night were still searching the debris at the station for further casualties.
After the explosion, an Irgun Zvai Leumi (terrorist) spokesman, broadcasting over the secret radio “Voice of Fighting Zion”, said: “The Jews are at war. Only arms will decide Palestine’s future, not an election.”
Final death toll is 12, with 11 injured. The Female Jewish terrorist has been identified as
Sima Fleishhaker-Hoizman
Source: The Daily New, Perth, Western Australia
31 October 1946
I suppose Reuters news agency and The Daily News in Australia are now on your list of reporters who are anti-Semitic and not valid sources. :roll:
Any source that doesn't tow the Zionist Party line is automatically charged as being anti-Semitic isn't it? You will have to add the BBC to the list as well because they don't always tow the Zionist Party line either. I guess your pool of credible sources is shrinking to only the propaganda from Zionist run news media. And people shouldn't believe eyewitnesses, photographic evidence or video either. I will post it again there is a website which has cut through the bull and posts the actual statics on the situation for both sides in the conflict. http://www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org) I would strongly urge people interested in seeing how American tax dollars are used review the truthfulness of this site for themselves.
And honestly if my government wasn't stealing money to support Israel I wouldn't care as much. But when the USA government steals money to support Israel. They are forcing me to be a partner in their crimes, granted just one of many. I care about the treatment of Irish in Northern Ireland but my government wasn't sending over foreign aid in the billions to support British tanks in the streets of Belfast. I cared about the treatment of native Africans in South Africa but again American wasn't sending South Africa billions of dollars and weapons to aid their system of oppression. As long as America tips the balance of power in Israel's favor there won't be peace.
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Now it is you who are being a Palestinian apologist.
You dig up one isolated incident of an Arab boy being wrongly used, in 2004, before Hamas got to power and started mass methodic use of human shields. How in your eyes, does this make the Hamas doctrine of methodically hiding behind and exploiting the Palestinian population justified?
And even if things really occurred as the article claims they did, how can this one isolated incident, in which the boy was reportedly subject to defend against stone throwing, as opposed to live fire, compensate for Hamas wide scale use of civilians as cannon fodder, which resulted in the death of hundreds of people.
Same goes for the case of the attack on the Jerusalem railway station by the Irgum Zvai Leumi, and extremist Jewish organization that was active in the years before establishment of Israel. First of all, if you can't find any better example than one that happened in 1946, you're better off leaving it. Second, it could be called terrorism, but it wasn't a suicide mission, the intent was to leave a charge of explosives at the station and get out. (Hint: in 120 years of Israeli-Arab conflict there was only one incident of a Jewish suicide terrorist, and it wasn't this one. How many Arab suicide terrorists were there?)
Here again, you find one little incident that happened more than 60 years ago, and you think that can somehow balance the cruel, methodic use of men, women and children as suicide bombers by Hamas, starting from indoctrination of children in schools.
Terrorist attacks such as the one carried out by Irgum Zvai Leumi were condemned by the majority of the Jewish society in those years, as they still are today. Compare that to the PA election results in 2007 where Hamas got democratic majority.
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No there are several cases of Israelis using Palestinians as human shields that was the only one that made it into a major publication. The under reporting isn't that the incidents aren't happening it is the media is being silent or simply kept out of the action. There are several pictures, videos and videos of eyewitnesses which are not from major publications. Information which would never have made it to the west if it wasn't for the internet. Simple searches can turn them up on numerous sites. But of course people aren't suppose to believe what they see or the testimony of eyewitnesses according to you unless it is a major non-Arab news outlet. Which is a bullshit argument because the MSM is notoriously flawed and bias. People really need to look at the evidence as collected, and at great risk to her own life, by an American journalist from California and is documented on the website http://www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org) The reason I only bring up one or two incidents also has to do with the limitation of posting on a forum.
How many news reports were there about the plight of the Jews in Europe prior to liberation? Extremely few if any and only a handful of pictures and a short silent film which was stored in a milk jug survived. And those were taken prior but they didn't even get discovered or recovered until after the liberation. Note* I am talking about before the American/British Armies liberated the camps and started documenting what they found. How many stories were released about the Warsaw Ghetto from the Jewish perspective? None but the Germans released articles accusing Jews in Warsaw Ghetto of pedophilia and illegal weapons in a surprisingly familiar way in which propaganda against the Branch Dividians was promoted before that massacre. It wasn't until after German control was stripped away that any of the facts came out. And the majority of that was in the form of eyewitness testimony something you reject from Palestinian eyewitnesses when reporting on the actions of the Israeli government or illegal settlers.
Extremist rabbi Yousef Falay, who dwells at the Yitzhar settlement on illegally seized Palestinian land in the northern part of the West Bank, wrote an article in a Zionist magazine under the title "Ways of War", in which he called for the killing of all Palestinian males refusing to flee their country, describing his idea as the practical way to ensure the non-existence of the Palestinian race.
What about Palestinian's right to exist? And these Jewish extremist win national election. The Likud Party charter emphasized the right of settlement in "Judea (and) Samaria" (more commonly known as the "West Bank") and Gaza. Isn't that suppose to be Palestinian sovereign territory according to you? Seems the agenda is clearly to pushout or exterminate Palestinians.
29 Palestinians praying in the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron were gunned down by Baruch Goldstein, a follower of Kahane, in 1994, with Israeli soldiers looking on and allowing the gunman to reload his automatic machine gun and continue killing innocent civilians. In response to that massacre, the Israeli authorities punished the Palestinian victims by taking over the Ibrahimi mosque and turning half of it into a synagogue, where Israeli settlers go to pray each week. And each year, on the anniversary of the massacre, Israeli settlers in Hebron dress up like Baruch Goldstein and parade through the streets of Hebron, firing guns in the air.
The reason there is such an old case of bombing terrorism by Jews in the area, specifically 1946, was because and I stated this they didn't yet have an army. Currently, the only reason that Palestinians are using gorilla tactics is because they don't have a standing army or the backing of a standing army.
If they were able to match up they wouldn't have to suffer with internal checkpoints or the constant threat of having their homes demolished or children shot in the streets by a foreign occupying force. They wouldn't have a blockade entrapping them. Do trust if you kill people's family members, demolish their homes, take away their ability to make a living, they will try to kill you as a last desperate act of survival. It is exactly what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto as a handful of Jews trapped there fought back against the Germans despite overwhelming odds. Was the Jewish resistance using the other Warsaw Ghetto residents as human shields as they fought house to house? Should the Jewish community have condemned them for killing Germans? Did the Germans have the right to bomb the ghetto killing many if they claimed the Jewish resistance was using the bombed out homes as hiding places? I think the Polish Jews had every right to fight back against those that stole their homes from them and forced them into the Warsaw Ghetto. It is the same right which the Palestinians deserve to fight back against those that have stolen their homes and forced them into permanent refugee camps.
Hamas isn't exploiting anyone. They are the Palestinian resistance attempting to defend what is left of their homeland from an invading occupying force. This should be obvious by the fact that they win elections in Palestinian territories. And the fact that they do win also reveals the Zionist propaganda as just that propaganda. If Hamas was forcing people to aid in their efforts to resist Israel they wouldn't win elections which are monitored by outside observers. If the shoe was on the other foot and Hamas had superior forces which were invading Israel. Forcing the Israeli army to fight from house to house in Israel would that mean the Israeli army is using their citizens as human shields?
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Hamas isn't exploiting anyone. They are the Palestinian resistance attempting to defend what is left of their homeland from an invading occupying force. This should be obvious by the fact that they win elections in Palestinian territories. And the fact that they do win also reveals the Zionist propaganda as just that propaganda. If Hamas was forcing people to aid in their efforts to resist Israel they wouldn't win elections which are monitored by outside observers. If the shoe was on the other foot and Hamas had superior forces which were invading Israel. Forcing the Israeli army to fight from house to house in Israel would that mean the Israeli army is using their citizens as human shields?
Is Hamas justified in killing Israeli troops who invade Gaza? yep.
Is taking human shields (which Hamas do) okay as a means to an end? No, no, no.
While I don't agree that simply by launching rockets in residential areas, Hamas are using civillians as shields, as in these cases there is very little interaction, and it is entirely bullshit to attack residential areas, then claim the moral high ground because Hamas were using shields, but there are many reports of Hamas threatening and killing people who hamper their operations, which is complete bullshit.
Also while we're on the note of shields, I still haven't heard a credible answer for why, when Hamas take human shields, then its okay to kill Hamas and the "shields" because its Hamas fault and they force Israel to attack, but when Israeli's are the shields, Israel does everything in its power not to kill the shields. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2786000/2786967.stm)
Is Hamas justified in taking oppressive control over Palestinian people because they win an election? No.
Is Hamas justified in rocketing Israeli civillians? No.
Hurting innocent people works both ways.
I don't see how any rational, moral minded person can support either the IDF or Hamas.
The same reasons Israel gov is Immoral for killing innocent people is the same reason Hamas are immoral.
Albeit Israel do it on a much larger scale, but thats neither here nor there, they're both immoral and they're both fucked up.
Opposing the irrationality and immorality of the zionist pro war israelis by supporting the irrational and immoral pro war palestinians is stupid.
Support peace, support free trade and free movement, support real self defence, support no sides, support the individual.
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I've seen avshae fault Hamas for going after traitors and collabarators. Does he feel the same way about the Jews who did that during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or are those guys heroes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
Two resistance organizations, the Jewish Military Union (Żydowski Związek Wojskowy, ŻZW) and the ŻOB took control of the Ghetto. They built dozens of fighting posts and executed individuals who collaborated with the Germans, including Jewish Police officers, members of German-sponsored Żagiew organization and Gestapo agents (like Judenrat member Dr Alfred Nossig on 22 February 1943).[14] The ŻOB established a prison to hold and execute traitors and collaborators.[15] Józef Szeryński, the former head of the Jewish Police, committed suicide.[16]
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Is Hamas justified in taking oppressive control over Palestinian people because they win an election? No.
Is Hamas justified in rocketing Israeli civillians? No.
Proof where is the proof. Maybe I should put up a big red false. Where are the articles in Al Jazeera's about how Hamas is oppressing people? (Realize I am being sarcastic.) Because when I make statements about Israel they are called false. Then I provide links to news articles from MSM which are bias in favor of Israel as a backup. AP even deleted a video of an Israeli soldier shooting an unarmed boy in the stomach. There are photos taken by another source and foreign eyewitnesses (note* not Palestinians but foreign observers.) And the AP intentionally erased the evidence so much for their neutrality in reporting just the facts. Just another incident reported by If Americans Knew organization. And an example of why it is so difficult to get accurate reporting.
http://www.williambowles.info/isrl-pal/vtjp/2009/0409/vtjp_300409.html (http://www.williambowles.info/isrl-pal/vtjp/2009/0409/vtjp_300409.html) Is a source of links to news articles concerning Palestine.
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There are several pictures, videos and videos of eyewitnesses which are not from major publications.
Why would a major publication refrain from publishing incidents of clear human rights violation? Its what they live for, why would they hold back? Perhaps it is because the Palestinians have cried wolf one too many times and the media has been fooled one to many times:
Gaza beach incident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmevqCYkL_c&feature=PlayList&p=A6FB9F6A0905CB9C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=49)
Muhammad Al-Dura (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3geiT77mlY4)
A news agency needs to preserve its own credibility, and Pallywood has produced one too many lies to be taken at face value.
29 Palestinians praying in the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron were gunned down by Baruch Goldstein, a follower of Kahane, in 1994, with Israeli soldiers looking on and allowing the gunman to reload his automatic machine gun and continue killing innocent civilians. In response to that massacre, the Israeli authorities punished the Palestinian victims by taking over the Ibrahimi mosque and turning half of it into a synagogue, where Israeli settlers go to pray each week. And each year, on the anniversary of the massacre, Israeli settlers in Hebron dress up like Baruch Goldstein and parade through the streets of Hebron, firing guns in the air.
Yes, this is the one singular event of Jewish suicide terrorism in the entire history of the conflict. And read the response of Israel and Jews all over the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre#Response (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre#Response)
Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government, the mainstream Israeli parties and the Israeli populace in general. Spokespeople for all the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral and as terrorism. The Kach movement, to which he belonged, was outlawed as a terrorist organization. The cabinet agreed to take away the weapons of some right-wing extremists and put them in administrative detention.
In an address to the Knesset, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin denounced the US-born Goldstein as a "foreign implant" and an "errant weed". He continued, "We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism." Binyamin Netanyahu, head of the right of centre Likud party declared, "This was a despicable crime. I express my unequivocal condemnation."
Hamas isn't exploiting anyone. They are the Palestinian resistance attempting to defend what is left of their homeland from an invading occupying force.
Oh yeah, so why did they not lay down their arms when Israel unilaterally retreated from the entire Gaza strip in 2005? Why does the Hamas charter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Hamas_Charter) explicitly call for the destruction of Israel and formation of an Islamic state in its stead? Why does the Hamas charter say stuff like (freely quoting) "negotiations are a waste of time, progress will only take place in violent conflict"? The claim that Hamas is merely trying to defend the Palestinians from the so-called Israeli oppression is bullshit and anyone with 2 brain cells knows it.
This should be obvious by the fact that they win elections in Palestinian territories.... If Hamas was forcing people to aid in their efforts to resist Israel they wouldn't win elections which are monitored by outside observers
I think it was none other than you yourself who said democracy is no guarantee of justice or morality. Hamas won one parliamentary election in 2007, following which they promptly seized power militarily and ousted the President and the remaining government positions which they hadn't legally acquired. That's what I call Hitler-style democracy. When is the next election scheduled for I wonder?
If the shoe was on the other foot and Hamas had superior forces which were invading Israel. Forcing the Israeli army to fight from house to house in Israel would that mean the Israeli army is using their citizens as human shields?
You don't get off that easy. Merely fighting in urban surroundings does not in itself constitute using human shields. Many armies have done it before throughout history. It is when you start using civilian buildings as weapon depots, firing rockets while using civilian concentrations as cover, taking children piggy-back to avoid sniper fire, that kind of stuff, is when you know you're a human-shield using terrorist scum.
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I've seen avshae fault Hamas for going after traitors and collabarators. Does he feel the same way about the Jews who did that during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or are those guys heroes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
Two resistance organizations, the Jewish Military Union (Żydowski Związek Wojskowy, ŻZW) and the ŻOB took control of the Ghetto. They built dozens of fighting posts and executed individuals who collaborated with the Germans, including Jewish Police officers, members of German-sponsored Żagiew organization and Gestapo agents (like Judenrat member Dr Alfred Nossig on 22 February 1943).[14] The ŻOB established a prison to hold and execute traitors and collaborators.[15] Józef Szeryński, the former head of the Jewish Police, committed suicide.[16]
I wonder why this obsession of comparing everything to WWII, the Nazis and the holocaust, as if there were no other historical events. My chief fault with Hamas is that they seek the destruction of Israel, and they are cowardly civilians-targeting suicide-bomber human-shield using dirty terrorists who have no regard for anyones life.
If you must compare, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising took place during approximately one month. As opposed to that uprising (or Israel today), Hamas in Gaza do have the jurisdiction to try people accused of collaboration or other accusations. So if they choose to let gangs run wild with AK-47s offing people who are suspected with collaboration (or just using it as an excuse to off someone so they could have his house or daughter or whatever), then it serves only to show the world what type of "liberation movement" we're dealing with here. And if they want to have a round of kneecaping every time they feel they need to intimidate Fatah rivals some more, well, I guess its just their style of democracy. I find no fault with that at all. They're freedom fighters aren't they?
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I still haven't heard a credible answer for why, when Hamas take human shields, then its okay to kill Hamas and the "shields" because its Hamas fault and they force Israel to attack, but when Israeli's are the shields, Israel does everything in its power not to kill the shields. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2786000/2786967.stm)
Did you read my answer? (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29172.msg541919#msg541919)
I don't see how any rational, moral minded person can support either the IDF or Hamas.
The same reasons Israel gov is Immoral for killing innocent people is the same reason Hamas are immoral.
Albeit Israel do it on a much larger scale, but thats neither here nor there, they're both immoral and they're both fucked up.
It is impossible for anyone to come out squeaky clean out of such a conflict. Israel can't just do nothing against Hamas rocket fire, and can't send in Sherlock Holmes to investigate, cuz Sherlock's head would come back on a spit. And Hamas pussies aren't exactly coming out and engaging IDF in the open.
The question is, given the situation in the last Gaza operation, which side was doing the utmost to minimize innocent casualties, and which side was doing the utmost to maximize them.
And I believe you, like the majority of western states, are well aware of the answer to that.
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I still haven't heard a credible answer for why, when Hamas take human shields, then its okay to kill Hamas and the "shields" because its Hamas fault and they force Israel to attack, but when Israeli's are the shields, Israel does everything in its power not to kill the shields. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2786000/2786967.stm)
Did you read my answer? (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29172.msg541919#msg541919)
Yes and it was a bullshit non answer.
I think it is clear for any normal person to see that IDF utilized all of its skill and innovativeness to minimize as much as possible innocent casualties in Gaza, just as it did in the famous Entebbe operation you referred to and in many other instances. Yet even in that mastermind surprise operation carried out by the IDF's crack "Sayeret Matkal" unit, that stunned the terrorists completely, and indeed the entire world, 3 hostages and one soldier were still killed. Other IDF attempts to rescue hostages were botched and all the hostages died. The outcome is never perfect in this type of thing. And it is unreasonable to expect Entebbe to be reiterated all the time, especially on a much larger scale such as in Gaza. Hamas were prepared, with detailed plans on just how to cynically exploit their own population.
The point is, you're talking about IDF attempts to rescue hostages. If IDF botch a rescue attempt, then that is a genuine accident. But that is completely incompatible to the Hamas human shield situation. The IDF aren't attempting any sort of rescue for human shields in Palestine, you said it yourself, they won't risk sending troops in who might get killed. All that happens is a big old bunch of artillery shells get rained down, Hamas and the shields get killed, and then Israel goes, "well we tried not to cause any civillian deaths, but its Hamas fault anyway for taking human shields."
I don't see how any rational, moral minded person can support either the IDF or Hamas.
The same reasons Israel gov is Immoral for killing innocent people is the same reason Hamas are immoral.
Albeit Israel do it on a much larger scale, but thats neither here nor there, they're both immoral and they're both fucked up.
It is impossible for anyone to come out squeaky clean out of such a conflict. Israel can't just do nothing against Hamas rocket fire, and can't send in Sherlock Holmes to investigate, cuz Sherlock's head would come back on a spit. And Hamas pussies aren't exactly coming out and engaging IDF in the open.
No, Hamas aren't fighting a war that makes it easy to fight them. Do you expect them to? Did the IRA do it? The IRA used IEDs and mortars just like islamic terrorists do, and they hid among a civilian populace so that they couldn't be attacked in the open. But when they did that, the UK military didn't just bomb them anyway and call the civilians collateral damage.
Hiding among civilians is meant to work because no sane, moral person is meant to want to drop bombs on innocent people just to kill their enemy.
Yes more soldiers and police officers would die if they sent in to engage Hamas on the ground instead of bombing the shit out of the 6th most dense place on earth.
THATS WHAT WAR IS. The point is it would be moral and be more beneficial in the long run if Israel decided to do the moral thing and put its troops at risk to apprehend Hamas members, not sacrifice innocent Palestinians by pursuing indiscriminate bombing/shelling campaigns that knowingly.
Don't you fucking dare claim that your forced into a position, and that you can't possibly risk troops in the kind of operations the UK army did in Ireland during the provisional IRA campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969%E2%80%931997).
During the provisional campaign, BECAUSE the UK fought a mainly moral war and didn't indiscriminately kill Irish civillians, lots of UK soldiers where killed by IRA terrorists in roadside bombs and ambushes.
655 dead UK soldiers and 272 dead police for only 255 dead IRA members. Some IRA members were even arrested, you know that old fashioned justice with courts in the place of Howitzers. How many civillians did the UK army kill? Far less than the IRA killed even of Republican people, let alone UK civillians, and as such the IRA has lost the vast majority of its support. Funny how killing hundreds of innocent people and calling it collateral damage actually helps a terrorist campaign that tries to portray the other side as oppressors.
In the latest Gaza invasion 10 Israeli soldiers died (most of them in friendly fire attacks), and between 200-900 civillians died, and 500 Hamas members and police men died.
Notice any disparity? Compare the numbers to the IRA conflict. Now the UK army wasn't stainless, they killed innocent people too, and i condemn them for it, but compared the the Israel campaign, they're practically saintly.
Are you that blindly dissonant that you refuse to accept that there is any other way to fight the war? That there is a moral way to fight the war, and that Israels hand is not forced to kill so many innocent people, it does it out of an unwillingness to lose Israeli soldiers in the line of duty. Go on, lie, lie to yourself, tell yourself that Israel is fighting the most moral war it can, tell yourself anything to avoid any shit landing on your beloved Israel.
Apparently a soldier who willingly goes into battle should be protected over Palestinian civilians who have no means of defending themselves and have done nothing wrong.
You're going to band about the pussy label when your talking about a military that would prefer 100 Palestinian civillians to die than for one soldier to die actually doing his job.
You know all the times you complain about Hamas using dirty, immoral tactics? Thats the time you're meant to take the high ground, not stoop to their level. :roll:
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The fundamental choice in this debate is do you want to take the side of rational, 21st century people like Avshae, or do you want to take the side of the Hamas extremist with his head stuck in the 7th century chanting for Allah's holy suicide bombers to go kill some people and perhaps even create another 9/11. That choice is pretty clear-cut to me.
And it's not like Avshae and his fellow Israelis haven't been more than fair to these people. They've given them the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and I believe the Golan Heights, and they've allowed them to create their own Muslim Palestinian state in those areas of Israel. But of course that's never enough for extremists such as Hamas. They have to have it all, and if they don't get it all, their response is to go kill people.
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The fundamental choice in this debate is do you want to take the side of rational, 21st century people like Avshae, or do you want to take the side of the Hamas extremist with his head stuck in the 7th century chanting for Allah's holy suicide bombers to go kill some people and perhaps even create another 9/11.
Fail.
I don't need to take a side. Both sides are fucked up beyond all repair.
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The point is, you're talking about IDF attempts to rescue hostages. If IDF botch a rescue attempt, then that is a genuine accident. But that is completely incompatible to the Hamas human shield situation. The IDF aren't attempting any sort of rescue for human shields in Palestine, you said it yourself, they won't risk sending troops in who might get killed.
It would be ideal for everyone involved (except Hamas) if the IDF could evacuate the entire population of Gaza from the clutches of Hamas before attacking them, but you can't really expect that. Apart from actually flying them out, IDF did everything possible and more - from leaflets telling people where safe zones are, last minute strike cancellations in case of last-minute data of unexpected civilians in the target zone, preceding the fatal strike with a cautionary one to force people to flee, you name it. What additional rescue operations would you have the IDF do (except for not engaging Hamas, or maybe trying to catch them when many of even wear explosive vests to use when soldiers approach them)?
All that happens is a big old bunch of artillery shells get rained down, Hamas and the shields get killed, and then Israel goes, "well we tried not to cause any civillian deaths, but its Hamas fault anyway for taking human shields."
I don't know where you got the impression about "shells raining down" and "bombing the shit out of ..." as it is completely detached from reality. I have told you and shown you time and again that there was no "wild bombing", and that precise identified targets were attacked with pinpoint accuracy. And you still go on with the "wild bombing" rhetoric. What do I need to do to get that out of your head?
No, Hamas aren't fighting a war that makes it easy to fight them. Do you expect them to? Did the IRA do it? The IRA used IEDs and mortars just like islamic terrorists do, and they hid among a civilian populace so that they couldn't be attacked in the open.
As I have said already in a previous post, guerrilla hiding among civilians, although not very courageous, does not in itself constitute using human shields. It is still a length from what Hamas did - forcing civilians to stay and "guard" targets, using civilian buildings as military structures, either for direct combat or for other purposes, etc etc. I don't think even the meanest IRA bastard ever took a kid piggyback to avoid sniper fire, which was a routine tactic by Hamas COWARDS.
Hiding among civilians is meant to work because no sane, moral person is meant to want to drop bombs on innocent people just to kill their enemy.
If so, than I can suggest a tactic with which Hamas (or any other PUSSIE terrorist) can conquer the world: strap civilians to all vehicles and "soldiers", execute 10 civilians in Gaza for every round IDF (or any other opposition) fires at you. No sane person, army, or government in the world can stop you right? Don't you understand the bullshit just had to end?
Yes more soldiers and police officers would die if they sent in to engage Hamas on the ground instead of bombing the shit out of the 6th most dense place on earth. The point is it would be moral and be more beneficial in the long run if Israel decided to do the moral thing and put its troops at risk to apprehend Hamas members, not sacrifice innocent Palestinians by pursuing indiscriminate bombing/shelling campaigns that knowingly.
Don't you fucking dare claim that your forced into a position, and that you can't possibly risk troops in the kind of operations the UK army did in Ireland during the provisional IRA campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969%E2%80%931997).
As I have already explained to you the key differences between Hamas and IRA, both here and previously, let me just add one thing you may not have considered. Most of the Israeli army is not composed of professional soldiers, but of enlisted persons and reserve duty, meaning they are just average Joes like you and I. There is no moral justification to risk mens lives for the remote possibility of saving others, especially when you know that (a) that is exactly the bait the Hamas wants you to bite on, and (b) Hamas are the ones who set the bait: live Palestinian civilians. They could easily have avoided the situation. Guerrilla warfare still does not necessitate use of human shields as Hamas did.
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I hereby declare a "Two-False-You're-Out" policy in this thread. One falsity is allowed in tolerance, but if a post contains two or more gross insurrmountable false statements with not even an attempt at backing evidence, it will be deleted.
There are several pictures, videos and videos of eyewitnesses which are not from major publications.
Why would a major publication refrain from publishing incidents of clear human rights violation? Its what they live for, why would they hold back? Perhaps it is because the Palestinians have cried wolf one too many times and the media has been fooled one to many times:
Because they are not unbias on the issue. I suppose German news papers wrote unbias reports about the Warsaw Ghetto. :roll: I have had to deal with the press on several occasions and they are all politically motivated dependent on who owns them. I participated in a protest against a law in my state which took away voter approval for private sector government bonds. The newspaper was in favor of the measure so they edited out the photo to make it appear that the protest signs were in favor of the bill. Complete misrepresentation of the facts. The measure passed. I have had a reporter lie to me personally. When I asked them to not use my name and they published my name. I refuse to deal with reporters any more.
Did you not read the Charter of one of the major Israel parties. A charter which calls for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza. It is on their own site not made up by some outside party it is their own material. The radical Rabbi felt free to publish under his own name that all Palestinian males over the age of 13 that don't refuse to abandon the Gaza and West Bank be murdered. And you want to point to fingers.
Oh and like carrying a child would stop and Israel sniper from murdering anyone. I think they would just consider that a twofer. Israelis had no problem bombing elementary school children with no cause just more excuses and fabrications of mythical munitions which don't turn up. Just the small bodies of defenseless kids.
Who introduced Nuclear weapons to the Middle East. That would be Israel with the help of the USA. What country refused to sign a anti-nuclear proliferation treaty, that would be Israel. What country uses depleted uranium on civilian populations. Yep again that would be Israel and sadly also the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan. I just don't like being forced through taxes to support these types of activities.
Did you not read the Charter of one of the major Israel parties. A charter which calls for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza.
False. I suppose you mean one of the four major ones, as I didn't check all the others, but still quite sure this is False.
Israelis had no problem bombing elementary school children with no cause
False.
Sorry, yurr out.
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Nothing but a complete Israeli apologist thread. How about you arm Hamas equally to the IDF and we will see who the cowards are then. Snipers are just a cleaned up name for assassins. They lurk up to a mile away in hiding and take out targeted individuals who don't have tanks, body armor or any of the billions of USA military aid has given to Israel.
You call kids in the street throwing rocks at tanks which are demolishing their homes and communities cowards. They have rocks the Israelis have tanks and automatic rifles and body armor. Sad you think it is less evil that the Israelis know they are targeting unarmed civilians rather than randomly bombing them.
By Chris McGreal
UK Guardian
November 24, 2004
An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun’s magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a “security area” on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
...... http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/child-killed.html (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/child-killed.html)
The UK Guardian Video clip about IDF use of Palestinians as human shields.
[youtube=425,350]v/Hy6-FZz69lE[/youtube]
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I hereby declare a "Two-False-You're-Out" policy in this thread. One falsity is allowed in tolerance, but if a post contains two or more gross insurrmountable false statements with not even an attempt at backing evidence, it will be deleted.
There are several pictures, videos and videos of eyewitnesses which are not from major publications.
Why would a major publication refrain from publishing incidents of clear human rights violation? Its what they live for, why would they hold back? Perhaps it is because the Palestinians have cried wolf one too many times and the media has been fooled one to many times:
Because they are not unbias on the issue. I suppose German news papers wrote unbias reports about the Warsaw Ghetto. :roll: I have had to deal with the press on several occasions and they are all politically motivated dependent on who owns them. I participated in a protest against a law in my state which took away voter approval for private sector government bonds. The newspaper was in favor of the measure so they edited out the photo to make it appear that the protest signs were in favor of the bill. Complete misrepresentation of the facts. The measure passed. I have had a reporter lie to me personally. When I asked them to not use my name and they published my name. I refuse to deal with reporters any more.
Did you not read the Charter of one of the major Israel parties. A charter which calls for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza. It is on their own site not made up by some outside party it is their own material. The radical Rabbi felt free to publish under his own name that all Palestinian males over the age of 13 that don't refuse to abandon the Gaza and West Bank be murdered. And you want to point to fingers.
Oh and like carrying a child would stop and Israel sniper from murdering anyone. I think they would just consider that a twofer. Israelis had no problem bombing elementary school children with no cause just more excuses and fabrications of mythical munitions which don't turn up. Just the small bodies of defenseless kids.
Who introduced Nuclear weapons to the Middle East. That would be Israel with the help of the USA. What country refused to sign a anti-nuclear proliferation treaty, that would be Israel. What country uses depleted uranium on civilian populations. Yep again that would be Israel and sadly also the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan. I just don't like being forced through taxes to support these types of activities.
Did you not read the Charter of one of the major Israel parties. A charter which calls for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza.
False. I suppose you mean one of the four major ones, as I didn't check all the others, but still quite sure this is False.
Israelis had no problem bombing elementary school children with no cause
False.
Sorry, yurr out.
Just because you call something false doesn't make it false jerk.
The Likud party's platform expressly rejects the idea of a Palestinian state, and is adamant that the settlers must stay put.
The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities [i.e. settlements in Judea and Samaria] and will prevent their uprooting. (...)
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.
And its charter claims sovereignty over the whole Land of Israel, which (as different from the State of Israel) includes Judea and Samaria. The charter calls for:
Preserving the right of the Jewish Nation to the Land of Israel as an eternal, inalienable right; perseverance in the settlement and development of all parts of the Land of Israel; implementation of the State's sovereignty on them.
For those who don't know Judea and Samaria are the West Bank and Gaza which are suppose to be sovereign Palestinian territory. However the LIKUD party a major political party in Israel calls for those territories to become the sole property of Israel and for colonization by Zionist.
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All that happens is a big old bunch of artillery shells get rained down, Hamas and the shields get killed, and then Israel goes, "well we tried not to cause any civillian deaths, but its Hamas fault anyway for taking human shields."
I don't know where you got the impression about "shells raining down" and "bombing the shit out of ..." as it is completely detached from reality. I have told you and shown you time and again that there was no "wild bombing", and that precise identified targets were attacked with pinpoint accuracy. And you still go on with the "wild bombing" rhetoric.
Erm, the IDF, the UN, the PCHR (although the IDF's word is golden)?
3 dead Israeli civilians, 10 dead soldiers, most of whom where killed by other Israelis, and 295(IDF)-900(PCHR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Centre_for_Human_Rights)) dead innocent Palestinians.
Yeah, thats not alot of dead innocents, Israel have such a hard time with their 3 civillian deaths.
Hamas are the evil indiscriminate terrorists, yet Israel, by their own estimates kill 100 times more civillians than Hamas.
Yeah the shells weren't raining down, it was hardly a scratch really. :roll:
No, Hamas aren't fighting a war that makes it easy to fight them. Do you expect them to? Did the IRA do it? The IRA used IEDs and mortars just like islamic terrorists do, and they hid among a civilian populace so that they couldn't be attacked in the open.
As I have said already in a previous post, guerrilla hiding among civilians, although not very courageous, does not in itself constitute using human shields. It is still a length from what Hamas did - forcing civilians to stay and "guard" targets, using civilian buildings as military structures, either for direct combat or for other purposes, etc etc. I don't think even the meanest IRA bastard ever took a kid piggyback to avoid sniper fire, which was a routine tactic by Hamas COWARDS.
"In similar incidents, the IRA deliberately killed 91 Protestant civilians in 1974-76" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969%E2%80%931997#Accusations_of_sectarian_attacks)
11 December 1971: A bomb attack on a furniture shop on the Shankill Road in Belfast killed four Protestant civilians, including two children. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_IRA_actions)
20 March 1993: Two IRA bombs exploded in Warrington, killing two children and injuring over fifty people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_IRA_actions)
One child murderer is as bad as another in my opinion. I don't see how using a child as a shield for bullets is any worse than deliberately bombing places and killing children in the process. Hamas are cowards, okay, now what. Does this mean its okay to bomb civilian areas.
I don't see how any of this means Israel can't fight a campaign like the UK did.
UK never pursued a policy of shelling residential areas. More UK civilians had died in certain years compared to 2008 in Israel, the year Israel said enough was enough and invaded, yet the UK military never decided that too many civillians had died and now they had
If UK didn't have to do it for 10 times the civilian deaths, and hundreds of times the military casualties, then Israel don't HAVE to do it, they just WANT to do it, because they know Israeli soldiers dying in battle is much worse come election than having 100 dead palestinians in their place.
The majority of IRA killings where in the forms of bombs and mortars, and some very occasional gun battles. The only way the UK military managed to try and kill and capture IRA terrorists was to go into Ireland, where they would get frequently ambushed and hit by roadside bombs.
IRA terrorists: 293 dead
British Armed Forces: 655 dead
RUC (police): 272 dead
Thats how the readout looks when you're not being a pussy and launching shells into a major city from miles away. Of course you'll never accept that Israel could follow a similar strategy, because that would mean what Israel are doing is horrifically immoral, what with killing thousands of innocent people they didn't have to.
If so, than I can suggest a tactic with which Hamas (or any other PUSSIE terrorist) can conquer the world: strap civilians to all vehicles and "soldiers", execute 10 civilians in Gaza for every round IDF (or any other opposition) fires at you. No sane person, army, or government in the world can stop you right? Don't you understand the bullshit just had to end?
This bullshit has ended has it? As far as I know Hamas are still launching rockets on Israel on a regular basis.
You've engaged in a shell game.
Its indicative of how confused your moral compass is that you can equate Hamas shooting civillians to Israel bombing Hamas and killing civilians in the process.
If you kill a Hamas militant, and they decide to kill some Palestinian, then fuck them, the blood is on their hands, you did nothing wrong. You didn't make them kill that civillian. They did, the blood is on their hands, and you were justified in killing the Hamas militant in self defense. Just like Hamas aren't making Israel bomb Gaza.
ITS NOT ABOUT WHAT HAMAS DO. Its about what you do. Kill as many people in self defense as you want, but when you kill innocent people, take yourself to a fucking jail cell because you're a murderer.
As I have already explained to you the key differences between Hamas and IRA, both here and previously, let me just add one thing you may not have considered. Most of the Israeli army is not composed of professional soldiers, but of enlisted persons and reserve duty, meaning they are just average Joes like you and I. There is no moral justification to risk mens lives for the remote possibility of saving others, especially when you know that (a) that is exactly the bait the Hamas wants you to bite on, and (b) Hamas are the ones who set the bait: live Palestinian civilians. They could easily have avoided the situation. Guerrilla warfare still does not necessitate use of human shields as Hamas did.
This is simple dodging.
"There is no moral justification to risk mens lives for the remote possibility of saving others, especially when you know that (a) that is exactly the bait the Hamas wants you to bite on, and (b) Hamas are the ones who set the bait: live Palestinian civilians. They could easily have avoided the situation. Guerrilla warfare still does not necessitate use of human shields as Hamas did."
Israel is the ones enlisting people into the IDF.
Fine, don't risk Israeli soldiers lives with ground operations in Gaza, but then don't risk innocent Palestinians
Its completely fucking ridiculous to say an 18 year old male with body armor, an assault rifle, and billions of dollars of logistics support, can't be risked in battle, but we can kill 100 times more Palestinian civilians through artillery bombardments if it means not sending that man into battle.
What you're essentially saying is, we can't risk Israeli soldiers lives by sending them into dangerous place, but we can risk Palestinian civillian lives because we need to kill Hamas, but we can't risk Israeli soldiers doing it, so its okay to risk Palestinian innocents. Even women or children, anything to avoid Israeli soldiers being put at risk.
What about the moral justification for killing innocent Palestinians? Shit, I forgot, IDF soldiers are "average joes", like you or me.
Except for the ones that launch artillery shells on residential areas knowing innocent people will die. I'm nothing like those immoral fuckers, or apparently anything like you.
All the reasons you've given that Israel have to kill innocent people in order to effectively fight Hamas I have disproved with my correlaries with IRA and the UK.
I've already shown how the UK military where willing to suffer 100 times the losses the IDF has in order not to fight a campaign exactly, where you use long distance weapons to keep your troops safe, and let innocent people take the risk soldiers should be taking.
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Nothing but a complete Israeli apologist troll thread.
And thanks to you & fatcat, a quite successful one.
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Did you not read the Charter of one of the major Israel parties. A charter which calls for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza.
False. I suppose you mean one of the four major ones, as I didn't check all the others, but still quite sure this is False.
Just because you call something false doesn't make it false jerk.
The Likud party's platform expressly rejects the idea of a Palestinian state, and is adamant that the settlers must stay put.
The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities [i.e. settlements in Judea and Samaria] and will prevent their uprooting. (...)
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.
The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.
And its charter claims sovereignty over the whole Land of Israel, which (as different from the State of Israel) includes Judea and Samaria. The charter calls for:
Preserving the right of the Jewish Nation to the Land of Israel as an eternal, inalienable right; perseverance in the settlement and development of all parts of the Land of Israel; implementation of the State's sovereignty on them.
For those who don't know Judea and Samaria are the West Bank and Gaza which are suppose to be sovereign Palestinian territory. However the LIKUD party a major political party in Israel calls for those territories to become the sole property of Israel and for colonization by Zionist.
As I said, and even in light of your quoting from the Likud charter, your statement above was and remains FALSE, as were all the other ones I have previously pointed out. You can't just go writing total bullshit and not expect me to point it out.
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I don't know where you got the impression about "shells raining down" and "bombing the shit out of ..." as it is completely detached from reality. I have told you and shown you time and again that there was no "wild bombing", and that precise identified targets were attacked with pinpoint accuracy. And you still go on with the "wild bombing" rhetoric.
Erm, the IDF, the UN, the PCHR (although the IDF's word is golden)?
3 dead Israeli civilians, 10 dead soldiers, most of whom where killed by other Israelis, and 295(IDF)-900(PCHR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Centre_for_Human_Rights)) dead innocent Palestinians.
Yeah, thats not alot of dead innocents, Israel have such a hard time with their 3 civillian deaths.
Hamas are the evil indiscriminate terrorists, yet Israel, by their own estimates kill 100 times more civillians than Hamas.
Fail. The amount casualties by itself is no indication whatsoever of fighting tactics and does not indicate "wild bombing" as you claim. I can reasonably assert that most of these casualties were off of Hamas' direct hands, for example when Hamas blew up buildings trying to stop Israeli advance, not bothering to check whether civilians were inside, and other incidents along those lines.
And the amount of Israeli civilian casualties on the other side definitely has nothing to do whether or not there was indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. There definitely was indiscriminate shelling of Israel as Hamas barely made no effort to conceal it.
As I have said already in a previous post, guerrilla hiding among civilians, although not very courageous, does not in itself constitute using human shields. It is still a length from what Hamas did - forcing civilians to stay and "guard" targets, using civilian buildings as military structures, either for direct combat or for other purposes, etc etc. I don't think even the meanest IRA bastard ever took a kid piggyback to avoid sniper fire, which was a routine tactic by Hamas COWARDS.
"In similar incidents, the IRA deliberately killed 91 Protestant civilians in 1974-76" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969%E2%80%931997#Accusations_of_sectarian_attacks)
11 December 1971: A bomb attack on a furniture shop on the Shankill Road in Belfast killed four Protestant civilians, including two children. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_IRA_actions)
20 March 1993: Two IRA bombs exploded in Warrington, killing two children and injuring over fifty people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_IRA_actions)
One child murderer is as bad as another in my opinion. I don't see how using a child as a shield for bullets is any worse than deliberately bombing places and killing children in the process. Hamas are cowards, okay, now what. Does this mean its okay to bomb civilian areas.
We were talking about human-shields. None of the IRA incidents you referenced involved use of human shields. I agree that using civilians as human shields in combat is just as bad as blowing up cafes, but the issue arises when people like you don't understand that in both cases the culprit is the same one. Don't get confused: who rigged up civilians buildings? Who used civilian infrastructure on its inhabitants for military uses? Who forced civilians to guard targets with their own flesh?
More UK civilians had died in certain years compared to 2008 in Israel, the year Israel said enough was enough and invaded, yet the UK military never decided that too many civillians had died and now they had
You should take that up with the UK government why they allowed so many people to die while they played our-shit-don't-stink games.
The majority of IRA killings where in the forms of bombs and mortars, and some very occasional gun battles. The only way the UK military managed to try and kill and capture IRA terrorists was to go into Ireland, where they would get frequently ambushed and hit by roadside bombs.
IRA terrorists: 293 dead
British Armed Forces: 655 dead
RUC (police): 272 dead
Thats how the readout looks when you're not being a pussy and launching shells into a major city from miles away. Of course you'll never accept that Israel could follow a similar strategy, because that would mean what Israel are doing is horrifically immoral, what with killing thousands of innocent people they didn't have to.
I wonder why you seem to conveniently forget the fact that IDF did go in on the ground, and was in there for weeks. And you're quoting casualty numbers from a period of decades, and comparing them to two weeks ground incursion, which is pointless. Do the math how many casualties per week the UK security forces suffered. Or compare to how many casualties IDF suffered since 1987, the beginning of the first Intifada.
Or think of it this way: compare the two decades of the IRA campaign, to the two decades of conflict with the Gaza and Judea-Samaria Arabs. Call it "the soft phase" of the two conflicts. Now IRA stood down eventually, its leaders realizing they had achieved nothing in years of bloody conflict, and lost most of their popularity due to the violence they had caused. But what if they hadn't stood down? What if amidst the ruins of the IRA campaign the most extreme of the IRA factions would rise and continue the terrorism, much more brutally and relentlessly than any of the other factions. The IRA's parallel to Hamas. People who just don't know when enough is enough, and its time to lay down your arms and pursue peaceful solutions. What would the UK do then?
Unfortunately I don't have time to respond to the rest.
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Fatcat, Libertylover: The bottom line is that Hamas is a terrorist group. The fact that they were voted into power in the Gaza Strip in the 2006 parliamentary elections does not change that fact in the least. In fact, the fact that they won that election reflects badly on the people of the Gaza Strip, and makes me wonder what kind of people they are that they could hand a brutal terrorist organization such an overwhelming number of seats in the Palestinian parliament. Hamas' actions are in no way legitimate, and the brave men and women in the IDF should do everything in their power to punish Hamas for their terrible crimes.
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In fact, the fact that they won that election reflects badly on the people of the Gaza Strip, and makes me wonder what kind of people they are that they could hand a brutal terrorist organization such an overwhelming number of seats in the Palestinian parliament. Hamas' actions are in no way legitimate,
(http://www.willisms.com/archives/bushcheney2000.gif)
(http://www.gbgm-umc.org/ravenna/Obama-Biden08small.jpg)
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In fact, the fact that they won that election reflects badly on the people of the Gaza Strip, and makes me wonder what kind of people they are that they could hand a brutal terrorist organization such an overwhelming number of seats in the Palestinian parliament. Hamas' actions are in no way legitimate,
(http://www.willisms.com/archives/bushcheney2000.gif)
(http://www.gbgm-umc.org/ravenna/Obama-Biden08small.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol: