In recent news: the Palestinians are still fucked up

[Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)]

Funny thing is, the Bedouins tend to support Israel, especially when compared to other "Arab" nations.  It appears that you're siting out of context eminent domain issues (yes eminent domain blows, not gonna argue that) and claiming that they're racially based.

[libertylover]

Funny thing is, the Bedouins tend to support Israel, especially when compared to other "Arab" nations.  It appears that you're siting out of context eminent domain issues (yes eminent domain blows, not gonna argue that) and claiming that they're racially based.

Please then point out when if ever a privately owned piece of Jewish land in Israel has been taken by eminent domain for the benefit of Israeli Arabs?  You won't find it.  On paper is a far cry from in practice and in practice Arabs are denied equal rights.  Even if they are considered Israeli citizens.  It isn't so much as eminent domain as unequal application of laws.  Arabs are denied building permits on their own homes and lands.  So if they repair something on their property they are charged with building without a permit.  This is when the Israeli government comes in and demolishes the whole house.  It is intentionally done to harass and impoverish Israeli Arabs.   Arab farmers have had their entire fields plowed under just before harvest the land wasn't taken via eminent domain the crop was simply destroyed.  Why to harass and impoverish as part of state sponsored terrorism by the Israeli government.

How about the right of return.  Any Jew no mater what ethnicity or country of origin or if they have even one single relative in Israel can immigrate.  Yet if an Israeli Arab marries a Palestinian they can not get a visa for their spouse to enter Israel.  And since you Israeli apologist with say this is false I will provide the documentation up front.

INTERNATIONAL (may 17, 2006)
Israeli Arabs protest immigration law
DAN BARON  http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=575  (Please note source is a Jewish
paper so it has the prerequisite apologies for Israeli racism.)
JERUSALEM – Israeli Arabs are upset after Israel’s top court upheld a controversial
law that prevents Palestinians married to Israeli Arabs from living in Israel.


Extract from Blood and Religion
http://www.jkcook.net/Blood-and-Religion-Extract-1.pdf  or http://www.jkcook.net  
J K Cook is an independent British Journalist living and working in Israel.
the Law of Return. Passed in 1950,
two years after the establishment of the state....
It gives a right to every Jew in the world to migrate to
Israel and receive automatic citizenship while barring the return of
Palestinians.....It has eased the passage of some three
million Jews to Israel, and disinherited the 750,000 Palestinians who
were either expelled or terrorized out of the country under cover of
war, and millions of their descendants.

To say that Israeli Arabs have equal rights in Israel is so dishonest as to be laughable.  Equally laughable is to say that Bedouins are under no duress or that their support of Israel is anything less than forced.  Bedouins live under the same separate but very unequal treatment as other Arabs in Israeli territory.  This is a blog link but it is linked to several articles on the subject of Israeli apartheid to include the treatment of Bedouins. http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/03/bedouin-victims-of-israeli-apartheid.html

[avshae]

Some people here seem to think they can find accurate information in radical second-hand blogs, sectoral third-rate newspapers, and "British" sources such as "the Council for Arab-British Understanding". Or maybe they don't even bother getting their data accurate, so long as they get to fill posts with their favorite words such as "Apartheid".

I won't bother, nor do I have the time, to dispute every single crude lie and obvious distortion that is written in this thread. After being caught several times with gross falsities, some people here would do better to think very carefully before continuing to babble additional nonsense.

Coming to the point, there is discrimination against minorities in Israel, just like there is discrimination against Blacks in the US, and indeed just as there is discrimination against just about any minority in the world. You can read a generally accurate summary of discrimination against Israeli-Arabs here.

Discrimination is being dealt with by authorities and lawmakers, although this process takes time. To understand how such discrimination came about you have to dive into the details and I don't have time, so I'll give just one example, regarding why Israeli-Arab municipalities have over the years been deprived of budget resources (if you compare on a per-capita basis).

Anyone who has done any kind of financial management knows that funds are given to you with respect to a detailed plan of how you intend to use them. Now if a municipality has no such plans, or has repeatedly broken its commitment to previous plans (.e.g. they were given money to build a school and instead of a school the money was "absorbed" into the bottomless pit of their municipal beaurocracy), naturally the responsible authority will be reluctant to continue granting funds which end up in corrupt hands greasing all the wrong places. Much better to give it to a neighboring municipality that actually gets the school built.

[libertylover]

And there it is.  When credible evidence is given the sources are attacked.  I suppose the UK paper The Daily Mail is now not credible source because of this article.  Oh and wasn't it your charge that use of human shields was immoral in another thread.  I guess it is only moral when Israelis do it.

The suicide mission is nothing new.  It is a tactic an act of desperation.  When Zionist were still trying to take over before they had any army, they participated in what they called no escape missions, ie suicide missions of bombings intended to terrorize people out of their communities.  The dead from these no escape missions, which is only a language trick so as to not call them suicide missions, are considered martyrs for the cause.  There is a book which examines the use of suicide missions through out history by all kinds of different groups not just in the current middle eastern conflicts.  Making sense of suicide missions By Diego Gambetta  I site this information to counter the notion that suicide bombings are something new.

Although earlier agency reports mentioned at least 12 missing, the only fatality so far mentioned in the official version is the police officer. He was a demolition expert. Reuters in Jerusalem says that police and troops last night were still searching the debris at the station for further casualties.

After the explosion, an Irgun Zvai Leumi (terrorist) spokesman, broadcasting over the secret radio “Voice of Fighting Zion”, said: “The Jews are at war. Only arms will decide Palestine’s future, not an election.”

Final death toll is 12, with 11 injured. The Female Jewish terrorist has been identified as
Sima Fleishhaker-Hoizman
Source: The Daily New, Perth, Western Australia
31 October 1946

I suppose Reuters news agency and The Daily News in Australia are now on your list of reporters who are anti-Semitic and not valid sources. 
Any source that doesn't tow the Zionist Party line is automatically charged as being anti-Semitic isn't it?   You will have to add the BBC to the list as well because they don't always tow the Zionist Party line either.  I guess your pool of credible sources is shrinking to only the propaganda from Zionist run news media.  And people shouldn't believe eyewitnesses, photographic evidence or video either.  I will post it again there is a website which has cut through the bull and posts the actual statics on the situation for both sides in the conflict.  http://www.ifamericansknew.org I would strongly urge people interested in seeing how American tax dollars are used review the truthfulness of this site for themselves. 

And honestly if my government wasn't stealing money to support Israel I wouldn't care as much.  But when the USA government steals money to support Israel.  They are forcing me to be a partner in their crimes, granted just one of many.  I care about the treatment of Irish in Northern Ireland but my government wasn't sending over foreign aid in the billions to support British tanks in the streets of Belfast.  I cared about the treatment of native Africans in South Africa but again American wasn't sending South Africa billions of dollars and weapons to aid their system of oppression.  As long as America tips the balance of power in Israel's favor there won't be peace. 

[avshae]

Now it is you who are being a Palestinian apologist.

You dig up one isolated incident of an Arab boy being wrongly used, in 2004, before Hamas got to power and started mass methodic use of human shields. How in your eyes, does this make the Hamas doctrine of methodically hiding behind and exploiting the Palestinian population justified?

And even if things really occurred as the article claims they did, how can this one isolated incident, in which the boy was reportedly subject to defend against stone throwing, as opposed to live fire, compensate for Hamas wide scale use of civilians as cannon fodder, which resulted in the death of hundreds of people.

Same goes for the case of the attack on the Jerusalem railway station by the Irgum Zvai Leumi, and extremist Jewish organization that was active in the years before establishment of Israel. First of all, if you can't find any better example than one that happened in 1946, you're better off leaving it. Second, it could be called terrorism, but it wasn't a suicide mission, the intent was to leave a charge of explosives at the station and get out. (Hint: in 120 years of Israeli-Arab conflict there was only one incident of a Jewish suicide terrorist, and it wasn't this one. How many Arab suicide terrorists were there?)

Here again, you find one little incident that happened more than 60 years ago, and you think that can somehow balance the cruel, methodic use of men, women and children as suicide bombers by Hamas, starting from indoctrination of children in schools.

Terrorist attacks such as the one carried out by Irgum Zvai Leumi were condemned by the majority of the Jewish society in those years, as they still are today. Compare that to the PA election results in 2007 where Hamas got democratic majority.

[libertylover]

No there are several cases of Israelis using Palestinians as human shields that was the only one that made it into a major publication.  The under reporting isn't that the incidents aren't happening it is the media is being silent or simply kept out of the action.  There are several pictures, videos and videos of eyewitnesses which are not from major publications.  Information which would never have made it to the west if it wasn't for the internet.  Simple searches can turn them up on numerous sites.  But of course people aren't suppose to believe what they see or the testimony of eyewitnesses according to you unless it is a major non-Arab news outlet.  Which is a bullshit argument because the MSM is notoriously flawed and bias.  People really need to look at the evidence as collected, and at great risk to her own life, by an American journalist from California and is documented on the website http://www.ifamericansknew.org  The reason I only bring up one or two incidents also has to do with the limitation of posting on a forum.

How many news reports were there about the plight of the Jews in Europe prior to liberation?  Extremely few if any and only a handful of pictures and a short silent film which was stored in a milk jug survived.  And those were taken prior but they didn't even get discovered or recovered until after the liberation.  Note* I am talking about before the American/British Armies liberated the camps and started documenting what they found.  How many stories were released about the Warsaw Ghetto from the Jewish perspective?  None but the Germans released articles accusing Jews in Warsaw Ghetto of pedophilia and illegal weapons in a surprisingly familiar way in which propaganda against the Branch Dividians was promoted before that massacre.  It wasn't until after German control was stripped away that any of the facts came out.  And the majority of that was in the form of eyewitness testimony something you reject from Palestinian eyewitnesses when reporting on the actions of the Israeli government or illegal settlers.

Extremist rabbi Yousef Falay, who dwells at the Yitzhar settlement on illegally seized Palestinian land in the northern part of the West Bank, wrote an article in a Zionist magazine under the title "Ways of War", in which he called for the killing of all Palestinian males refusing to flee their country, describing his idea as the practical way to ensure the non-existence of the Palestinian race.

What about Palestinian's right to exist?  And these Jewish extremist win national election.  The Likud Party charter emphasized the right of settlement in "Judea (and) Samaria" (more commonly known as the "West Bank") and Gaza.  Isn't that suppose to be Palestinian sovereign territory according to you?  Seems the agenda is clearly to pushout or exterminate Palestinians.  

29 Palestinians praying in the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron were gunned down by Baruch Goldstein, a follower of Kahane, in 1994, with Israeli soldiers looking on and allowing the gunman to reload his automatic machine gun and continue killing innocent civilians. In response to that massacre, the Israeli authorities punished the Palestinian victims by taking over the Ibrahimi mosque and turning half of it into a synagogue, where Israeli settlers go to pray each week. And each year, on the anniversary of the massacre, Israeli settlers in Hebron dress up like Baruch Goldstein and parade through the streets of Hebron, firing guns in the air.

The reason there is such an old case of bombing terrorism by Jews in the area, specifically 1946, was because and I stated this they didn't yet have an army.  Currently, the only reason that Palestinians are using gorilla tactics is because they don't have a standing army or the backing of a standing army.  
If they were able to match up they wouldn't have to suffer with internal checkpoints or the constant threat of having their homes demolished or children shot in the streets by a foreign occupying force.  They wouldn't have a blockade entrapping them.  Do trust if you kill people's family members, demolish their homes, take away their ability to make a living, they will try to kill you as a last desperate act of survival.  It is exactly what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto as a handful of Jews trapped there fought back against the Germans despite overwhelming odds.  Was the Jewish resistance using the other Warsaw Ghetto residents as human shields as they fought house to house?  Should the Jewish community have condemned them for killing Germans?  Did the Germans have the right to bomb the ghetto killing many if they claimed the Jewish resistance was using the bombed out homes as hiding places?  I think the Polish Jews had every right to fight back against those that stole their homes from them and forced them into the Warsaw Ghetto.  It is the same right which the Palestinians deserve to fight back against those that have stolen their homes and forced them into permanent refugee camps.

Hamas isn't exploiting anyone.  They are the Palestinian resistance attempting to defend what is left of their homeland from an invading occupying force.  This should be obvious by the fact that they win elections in Palestinian territories.   And the fact that they do win also reveals the Zionist propaganda as just that propaganda.  If Hamas was forcing people to aid in their efforts to resist Israel they wouldn't win elections which are monitored by outside observers.  If the shoe was on the other foot and Hamas had superior forces which were invading Israel.  Forcing the Israeli army to fight from house to house in Israel would that mean the Israeli army is using their citizens as human shields?

[fatcat]

Hamas isn't exploiting anyone.  They are the Palestinian resistance attempting to defend what is left of their homeland from an invading occupying force.  This should be obvious by the fact that they win elections in Palestinian territories.   And the fact that they do win also reveals the Zionist propaganda as just that propaganda.  If Hamas was forcing people to aid in their efforts to resist Israel they wouldn't win elections which are monitored by outside observers.  If the shoe was on the other foot and Hamas had superior forces which were invading Israel.  Forcing the Israeli army to fight from house to house in Israel would that mean the Israeli army is using their citizens as human shields?

Is Hamas justified in killing Israeli troops who invade Gaza? yep.

Is taking human shields (which Hamas do) okay as a means to an end? No, no, no.

While I don't agree that simply by launching rockets in residential areas, Hamas are using civillians as shields, as in these cases there is very little interaction, and it is entirely bullshit to attack residential areas, then claim the moral high ground because Hamas were using shields, but there are many reports of Hamas threatening and killing people who hamper their operations, which is complete bullshit.

Also while we're on the note of shields, I still haven't heard a credible answer for why, when Hamas take human shields, then its okay to kill Hamas and the "shields" because its Hamas fault and they force Israel to attack, but when Israeli's are the shields, Israel does everything in its power not to kill the shields.

Is Hamas justified in taking oppressive control over Palestinian people because they win an election? No.

Is Hamas justified in rocketing Israeli civillians? No.

Hurting innocent people works both ways.

I don't see how any rational, moral minded person can support either the IDF or Hamas.

The same reasons Israel gov is Immoral for killing innocent people is the same reason Hamas are immoral.

Albeit Israel do it on a much larger scale, but thats neither here nor there, they're both immoral and they're both fucked up.

Opposing the irrationality and immorality of the zionist pro war israelis by supporting the irrational and immoral pro war palestinians is stupid.

Support peace, support free trade and free movement, support real self defence, support no sides, support the individual.

[blackie]

I've seen avshae fault Hamas for going after traitors and collabarators. Does he feel the same way about the Jews who did that during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or are those guys heroes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

Two resistance organizations, the Jewish Military Union (Żydowski Związek Wojskowy, ŻZW) and the ŻOB took control of the Ghetto. They built dozens of fighting posts and executed individuals who collaborated with the Germans, including Jewish Police officers, members of German-sponsored Żagiew organization and Gestapo agents (like Judenrat member Dr Alfred Nossig on 22 February 1943).[14] The ŻOB established a prison to hold and execute traitors and collaborators.[15] Józef Szeryński, the former head of the Jewish Police, committed suicide.[16]

[libertylover]

Is Hamas justified in taking oppressive control over Palestinian people because they win an election? No.

Is Hamas justified in rocketing Israeli civillians? No.

Proof where is the proof. Maybe I should put up a big red false.  Where are the articles in Al Jazeera's about how Hamas is oppressing people? (Realize I am being sarcastic.)  Because when I make statements about Israel they are called false.  Then I provide links to news articles from MSM which are bias in favor of Israel as a backup.  AP even deleted a video of an Israeli soldier shooting an unarmed boy in the stomach.  There are photos taken by another source and foreign eyewitnesses (note* not Palestinians but foreign observers.) And the AP intentionally erased the evidence so much for their neutrality in reporting just the facts.  Just another incident reported by If Americans Knew organization.  And an example of why it is so difficult to get accurate reporting.

http://www.williambowles.info/isrl-pal/vtjp/2009/0409/vtjp_300409.html  Is a source of links to news articles concerning Palestine.

[avshae]

There are several pictures, videos and videos of eyewitnesses which are not from major publications.

Why would a major publication refrain from publishing incidents of clear human rights violation? Its what they live for, why would they hold back? Perhaps it is because the Palestinians have cried wolf one too many times and the media has been fooled one to many times:

Gaza beach incident
Muhammad Al-Dura

A news agency needs to preserve its own credibility, and Pallywood has produced one too many lies to be taken at face value.

29 Palestinians praying in the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron were gunned down by Baruch Goldstein, a follower of Kahane, in 1994, with Israeli soldiers looking on and allowing the gunman to reload his automatic machine gun and continue killing innocent civilians. In response to that massacre, the Israeli authorities punished the Palestinian victims by taking over the Ibrahimi mosque and turning half of it into a synagogue, where Israeli settlers go to pray each week. And each year, on the anniversary of the massacre, Israeli settlers in Hebron dress up like Baruch Goldstein and parade through the streets of Hebron, firing guns in the air.

Yes, this is the one singular event of Jewish suicide terrorism in the entire history of the conflict. And read the response of Israel and Jews all over the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre#Response

Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government, the mainstream Israeli parties and the Israeli populace in general. Spokespeople for all the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral and as terrorism. The Kach movement, to which he belonged, was outlawed as a terrorist organization. The cabinet agreed to take away the weapons of some right-wing extremists and put them in administrative detention.
In an address to the Knesset, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin denounced the US-born Goldstein as a "foreign implant" and an "errant weed". He continued, "We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism." Binyamin Netanyahu, head of the right of centre Likud party declared, "This was a despicable crime. I express my unequivocal condemnation."

Hamas isn't exploiting anyone.  They are the Palestinian resistance attempting to defend what is left of their homeland from an invading occupying force.

Oh yeah, so why did they not lay down their arms when Israel unilaterally retreated from the entire Gaza strip in 2005? Why does the Hamas charter explicitly call for the destruction of Israel and formation of an Islamic state in its stead? Why does the Hamas charter say stuff like (freely quoting) "negotiations are a waste of time, progress will only take place in violent conflict"? The claim that Hamas is merely trying to defend the Palestinians from the so-called Israeli oppression is bullshit and anyone with 2 brain cells knows it.

This should be obvious by the fact that they win elections in Palestinian territories.... If Hamas was forcing people to aid in their efforts to resist Israel they wouldn't win elections which are monitored by outside observers

I think it was none other than you yourself who said democracy is no guarantee of justice or morality. Hamas won one parliamentary election in 2007, following which they promptly seized power militarily and ousted the President and the remaining government positions which they hadn't legally acquired. That's what I call Hitler-style democracy. When is the next election scheduled for I wonder?

If the shoe was on the other foot and Hamas had superior forces which were invading Israel.  Forcing the Israeli army to fight from house to house in Israel would that mean the Israeli army is using their citizens as human shields?

You don't get off that easy. Merely fighting in urban surroundings does not in itself constitute using human shields. Many armies have done it before throughout history. It is when you start using civilian buildings as weapon depots, firing rockets while using civilian concentrations as cover, taking children piggy-back to avoid sniper fire, that kind of stuff, is when you know you're a human-shield using terrorist scum.

[avshae]

I've seen avshae fault Hamas for going after traitors and collabarators. Does he feel the same way about the Jews who did that during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or are those guys heroes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

Two resistance organizations, the Jewish Military Union (Żydowski Związek Wojskowy, ŻZW) and the ŻOB took control of the Ghetto. They built dozens of fighting posts and executed individuals who collaborated with the Germans, including Jewish Police officers, members of German-sponsored Żagiew organization and Gestapo agents (like Judenrat member Dr Alfred Nossig on 22 February 1943).[14] The ŻOB established a prison to hold and execute traitors and collaborators.[15] Józef Szeryński, the former head of the Jewish Police, committed suicide.[16]

I wonder why this obsession of comparing everything to WWII, the Nazis and the holocaust, as if there were no other historical events. My chief fault with Hamas is that they seek the destruction of Israel, and they are cowardly civilians-targeting suicide-bomber human-shield using dirty terrorists who have no regard for anyones life.

If you must compare, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising took place during approximately one month. As opposed to that uprising (or Israel today), Hamas in Gaza do have the jurisdiction to try people accused of collaboration or other accusations. So if they choose to let gangs run wild with AK-47s offing people who are suspected with collaboration (or just using it as an excuse to off someone so they could have his house or daughter or whatever), then it serves only to show the world what type of "liberation movement" we're dealing with here. And if they want to have a round of kneecaping every time they feel they need to intimidate Fatah rivals some more, well, I guess its just their style of democracy. I find no fault with that at all. They're freedom fighters aren't they?

[avshae]

I still haven't heard a credible answer for why, when Hamas take human shields, then its okay to kill Hamas and the "shields" because its Hamas fault and they force Israel to attack, but when Israeli's are the shields, Israel does everything in its power not to kill the shields.

Did you read my answer?

I don't see how any rational, moral minded person can support either the IDF or Hamas.
The same reasons Israel gov is Immoral for killing innocent people is the same reason Hamas are immoral.
Albeit Israel do it on a much larger scale, but thats neither here nor there, they're both immoral and they're both fucked up.

It is impossible for anyone to come out squeaky clean out of such a conflict. Israel can't just do nothing against Hamas rocket fire, and can't send in Sherlock Holmes to investigate, cuz Sherlock's head would come back on a spit. And Hamas pussies aren't exactly coming out and engaging IDF in the open.

The question is, given the situation in the last Gaza operation, which side was doing the utmost to minimize innocent casualties, and which side was doing the utmost to maximize them.

And I believe you, like the majority of western states, are well aware of the answer to that.

[fatcat]

I still haven't heard a credible answer for why, when Hamas take human shields, then its okay to kill Hamas and the "shields" because its Hamas fault and they force Israel to attack, but when Israeli's are the shields, Israel does everything in its power not to kill the shields.

Did you read my answer?

Yes and it was a bullshit non answer.

I think it is clear for any normal person to see that IDF utilized all of its skill and innovativeness to minimize as much as possible innocent casualties in Gaza, just as it did in the famous Entebbe operation you referred to and in many other instances. Yet even in that mastermind surprise operation carried out by the IDF's crack "Sayeret Matkal" unit, that stunned the terrorists completely, and indeed the entire world, 3 hostages and one soldier were still killed. Other IDF attempts to rescue hostages were botched and all the hostages died. The outcome is never perfect in this type of thing. And it is unreasonable to expect Entebbe to be reiterated all the time, especially on a much larger scale such as in Gaza. Hamas were prepared, with detailed plans on just how to cynically exploit their own population.

The point is, you're talking about IDF attempts to rescue hostages. If IDF botch a rescue attempt, then that is a genuine accident. But that is completely incompatible to the Hamas human shield situation. The IDF aren't attempting any sort of rescue for human shields in Palestine, you said it yourself, they won't risk sending troops in who might get killed. All that happens is a big old bunch of artillery shells get rained down, Hamas and the shields get killed, and then Israel goes, "well we tried not to cause any civillian deaths, but its Hamas fault anyway for taking human shields."

I don't see how any rational, moral minded person can support either the IDF or Hamas.
The same reasons Israel gov is Immoral for killing innocent people is the same reason Hamas are immoral.
Albeit Israel do it on a much larger scale, but thats neither here nor there, they're both immoral and they're both fucked up.

It is impossible for anyone to come out squeaky clean out of such a conflict. Israel can't just do nothing against Hamas rocket fire, and can't send in Sherlock Holmes to investigate, cuz Sherlock's head would come back on a spit. And Hamas pussies aren't exactly coming out and engaging IDF in the open.

No, Hamas aren't fighting a war that makes it easy to fight them. Do you expect them to? Did the IRA do it? The IRA used IEDs and mortars just like islamic terrorists do, and they hid among a civilian populace so that they couldn't be attacked in the open. But when they did that, the UK military didn't just bomb them anyway and call the civilians collateral damage.

Hiding among civilians is meant to work because no sane, moral person is meant to want to drop bombs on innocent people just to kill their enemy.

Yes more soldiers and police officers would die if they sent in to engage Hamas on the ground instead of bombing the shit out of the 6th most dense place on earth.

THATS WHAT WAR IS. The point is it would be moral and be more beneficial in the long run if Israel decided to do the moral thing and put its troops at risk to apprehend Hamas members, not sacrifice innocent Palestinians by pursuing indiscriminate bombing/shelling campaigns that knowingly.


Don't you fucking dare claim that your forced into a position, and that you can't possibly risk troops in the kind of operations the UK army did in Ireland during the provisional IRA campaign.

During the provisional campaign, BECAUSE the UK fought a mainly moral war and didn't indiscriminately kill Irish civillians, lots of UK soldiers where killed by IRA terrorists in roadside bombs and ambushes.

655 dead UK soldiers and 272 dead police for only 255 dead IRA members. Some IRA members were even arrested, you know that old fashioned justice with courts in the place of Howitzers. How many civillians did the UK army kill? Far less than the IRA killed even of Republican people, let alone UK civillians, and as such the IRA has lost the vast majority of its support. Funny how killing hundreds of innocent people and calling it collateral damage actually helps a terrorist campaign that tries to portray the other side as oppressors.

In the latest Gaza invasion 10 Israeli soldiers died (most of them in friendly fire attacks), and between 200-900 civillians died, and 500 Hamas members and police men died.

Notice any disparity? Compare the numbers to the IRA conflict. Now the UK army wasn't stainless, they killed innocent people too, and i condemn them for it, but compared the the Israel campaign, they're practically saintly.

 Are you that blindly dissonant that you refuse to accept that there is any other way to fight the war? That there is a moral way to fight the war, and that Israels hand is not forced to kill so many innocent people, it does it out of an unwillingness to lose Israeli soldiers in the line of duty. Go on, lie, lie to yourself, tell yourself that Israel is fighting the most moral war it can, tell yourself anything to avoid any shit landing on your beloved Israel.

Apparently a soldier who willingly goes into battle should be protected over Palestinian civilians who have no means of defending themselves and have done nothing wrong.

You're going to band about the pussy label when your talking about a military that would prefer 100 Palestinian civillians to die than for one soldier to die actually doing his job.

You know all the times you complain about Hamas using dirty, immoral tactics? Thats the time you're meant to take the high ground, not stoop to their level.

[Luke Smith]

The fundamental choice in this debate is do you want to take the side of rational, 21st century people like Avshae, or do you want to take the side of the Hamas extremist with his head stuck in the 7th century chanting for Allah's holy suicide bombers to go kill some people and perhaps even create another 9/11. That choice is pretty clear-cut to me.

And it's not like Avshae and his fellow Israelis haven't been more than fair to these people. They've given them the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and I believe the Golan Heights, and they've allowed them to create their own Muslim Palestinian state in those areas of Israel. But of course that's never enough for extremists such as Hamas. They have to have it all, and if they don't get it all, their response is to go kill people.

[blackie]

The fundamental choice in this debate is do you want to take the side of rational, 21st century people like Avshae, or do you want to take the side of the Hamas extremist with his head stuck in the 7th century chanting for Allah's holy suicide bombers to go kill some people and perhaps even create another 9/11.

Fail.

I don't need to take a side. Both sides are fucked up beyond all repair.