Immigration

[digitalfour]

I'm not saying I'm all gung-ho for this incarnation, because its very broken.  But the concept is legitimate and sound, even if its actual practice is terribly mismanaged.

Um, no. It only seems sound if you don't want to understand how complete liberty could work.

My argument with the pure anarchists is they think the oblivion is the path, from which will spring a healthier society.

See, this is the problem that occurs when you think government is an actual thing. It's not.

Government is an idea, for better or worse, and ideas change.

I don't think government should be overthrown, which is exactly what you think I want.

I think government should be educated out of existence. The misunderstanding of this concept shows very clearly in your fear-based and ultimately irrelevant-to-the-point writing.

[Terror Australis]

Government is no different to religion.It is incredibly difficult or next to impossible to convince the believers that it doesn't actually exist.That is why the modern form of heresy/terrorism is believing in liberty.Some places you can be executed by the priests/cops/beauracrats for advocating it.The next spanish inquisition will be state sponsored,they have already legalised torture and imprisonment just for being accused of heresy/terrorism.As religion has gone in history so will government untill we enter the age of enlightenment.

[crimson80]

Government is no different to religion.It is incredibly difficult or next to impossible to convince the believers that it doesn't actually exist.That is why the modern form of heresy/terrorism is believing in liberty.Some places you can be executed by the priests/cops/beauracrats for advocating it.The next spanish inquisition will be state sponsored,they have already legalised torture and imprisonment just for being accused of heresy/terrorism.As religion has gone in history so will government untill we enter the age of enlightenment.

But governments do exist.  They exist the same as businesses, schools, associations, etc.  

Government is an idea, for better or worse, and ideas change.

Government is an institution which is based on ideas.  But it is more than an idea.  The same way that a business is (or can be) more than an idea.  Is McDonald's just an idea?  No.  It is created from an idea, but it also has property, employees, etc. 

[John Shaw]

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=33758.0

[digitalfour]

But governments do exist.  They exist the same as businesses, schools, associations, etc.

In other words, you're saying if people stopped believing in businesses, schools, associations, etc. they would stop existing too? I agree. Those institutions don't rob and murder though.

Government is an institution which is based on ideas.  But it is more than an idea.

The point is not that the people with guns say they own certain white houses, it is that if no one believed in government there would not be government. In this way government is a fiction.

[crimson80]

But governments do exist.  They exist the same as businesses, schools, associations, etc.

In other words, you're saying if people stopped believing in businesses, schools, associations, etc. they would stop existing too? I agree. Those institutions don't rob and murder though.

Government is an institution which is based on ideas.  But it is more than an idea.

The point is not that the people with guns say they own certain white houses, it is that if no one believed in government there would not be government. In this way government is a fiction.

If no one ate meat, there wouldn't be McDonalds.  But that doesn't make it "a fiction" (whatever that is supposed to mean). 

[hellbilly]

"Existence exists". Sound familiar?

If it is perceived, it exists.

Government exists, boundaries, borders, nations, laws, penalties all exist. The "imaginary lines on paper" angle is quirky.. all around the globe those lines are acknowledged. A handful of people who want total liberty will not change that. Doesn't mean it isn't a wonderful & worthy concept, just means a border-less globe isn't likely to happen, ever.

Makes me wonder at what point noble aspirations morph into naive desires.

[digitalfour]

The point is not that the people with guns say they own certain white houses, it is that if no one believed in government there would not be government. In this way government is a fiction.

If no one ate meat, there wouldn't be McDonalds.  But that doesn't make it "a fiction" (whatever that is supposed to mean). 

Government aggression cannot be legitimate because government legitimacy comes, not from an outside government, and not from a mistaken view of the necessity of government, but from consent of the governed. Given that governments are currently monopolies, consent does not exist.

If it is perceived, it exists.

Sure, people in the name of government will put you in a cage if they want. I know this. However, the point is government should not be fought like a boxer would fight another boxer. Government, just like slavery, is an institution that can only be undermined through education. In this way I differ sharply from the view that a particular government being overthrown is inherently good. Only by replacing the faulty belief system of government with a better one such as voluntaryism, can government truly be ended.

[BobRobertson]

Government is a fiction, the same way a story is not a book. The book exists even if there is nothing printed on the page.

The social institution "government", like the story, comes and goes as people in general want it to. Buildings, individuals, remain regardless of what the name is on the plaque at the front door.

Only by replacing the faulty belief system of government with a better one such as voluntaryism, can government truly be ended.

Couldn't agree more. A violent revolution would simply install a new set of people utilizing power, because the dependency on being told what to do has not been removed.

Education is the key.

I do not want to "overthrow" government, since I do not want the government that would rise in its place.

I want government to go away, preferably because the people who work within it discover they are better needed elsewhere.

Sadly, there will always be individuals who cling to power. So long as the institution exists, the sociopathic will be drawn to it like flies to sugar. Getting enough people to recognize that the institution of legitimate coercion can and should be ignored into non-existence is the hard part.

That brainwashing by the public schools and mass media really works.

[ForumTroll]

Couldn't agree more. A violent revolution would simply install a new set of people utilizing power, because the dependency on being told what to do has not been removed.

And it would most likely be Glenn Beck types. I don't know if that is better or worse than what we have now. You can bet abortion and homosex (except lesbionics, of course) would be punishable by death.