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Poll

If you had to grow 100% of your food and process / cook it yourself, alone, what would be your primary sources of carbohydrates?

Maize
- 8 (6.1%)
Rice
- 9 (6.8%)
Wheat
- 9 (6.8%)
Barley
- 3 (2.3%)
Sorghum
- 0 (0%)
Millets
- 0 (0%)
Oats
- 0 (0%)
Rye
- 2 (1.5%)
Triticale
- 0 (0%)
Buckwheat
- 2 (1.5%)
Potatos
- 34 (25.8%)
Cabbage
- 6 (4.5%)
Apples
- 11 (8.3%)
Beans
- 20 (15.2%)
Carrots
- 4 (3%)
Peas
- 2 (1.5%)
Other legume
- 2 (1.5%)
Other fruit
- 9 (6.8%)
Other cerial
- 1 (0.8%)
Other root vegetable
- 2 (1.5%)
Other leafy vegetable
- 5 (3.8%)
Added late: squash
- 3 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 35


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mikehz

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2009, 12:54:38 PM »

Hey, if you have hemp, you can trade for whatever else you need.
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2009, 01:14:32 PM »

Man, this data is really hard to find, and those numbers are not specific to New Hampshire.  We Free Staters should start an "open source agriculture project" or something.  I wonder if we can get RMS to sing "join us now and share the veggies"...  :lol:


So, that's it, then. Apples and hemp--what more do you need?  :lol:

I'm suspicious of that single source indicating such high apple yields - I think in real world conditions hemp is as unbeatable in total calories per acre as it clearly is in qualitative nutrition!  Apples would also perform much worse if you average the numbers for the first decade or two of a new orchard, since new trees don't reach full capacity immediately.  And many other parts of the hemp plant are useful, not just the seeds.  It also needs no pesticide, fertilizer, etc...  Hemp truly is as greatly advanced compared to other plants as human beings are advanced compared to other animals!  :D

If you're going to feed some of those apples and hemp to pigs and chickens and get your protein from them (lean cuts only), then you don't need much else, except a small vegetable garden with small patches of different plants to get any vitamins / minerals missing in hemp: kale, broccoli, etc.  If you're vegan, however, hemp has too much fat and apples have too much fructose to be staples of a healthy diet.


[...]  Yams because of the vitamin content, blight resistance, ease of growth, and ease of storage.  [...]

I included "sweet potatoes" in the above table, but I'm very ignorant of the differences between them and yams.  It seems that yams are native to even warmer regions, which means would be even more difficult to grow in NH.  You'll get 3-5 higher yield with regular potatoes; and, for vitamin content, a greenhouse growing small patches of different leaf veggies year-round can't be beat.


Hey, if you have hemp, you can trade for whatever else you need.

Yeah, but if all Porcupines grow hemp and trade with non-Porcupines for other food then it's not really agricultural independence now is it?
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shezmu

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2009, 01:39:55 PM »

Question: What's stopping me from just working for real currency (i.e. silver) and paying someone else for farming? Obviously, if civilization (read: government) collapsed, then there weren't be men/women with guns to kill me for doing black market activities.


Edit: I'm probably not getting the point here....
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2009, 02:12:49 PM »

Oh, sure, you can obtain a MUCH greater return for your time by kissing government's butt, paying taxes, and buying your food from someone else who kisses government's butt.  I was en-route to making a six figure salary by age 25, and I was pretty good at saving and investing, so I'm clearly not interested in subsistence agriculture because that's the greatest economic contribution I can make.  The point of this endeavor is agricultural independence!

Do you think the American colonies could have seceded from the British Empire if all of their food was imported under the protection of the King's Navy?
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2009, 02:28:48 PM »

Hemp is good stuff. I drink a hemp protein shake almost every day. There are also hemp oils that are great for your health.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2009, 02:32:06 PM »

Hey, if you have hemp, you can trade for whatever else you need.

Not pot.  Hemp. 
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thersites

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2009, 12:39:13 AM »

My question is....how much room would it take to grow enough food to live sustainably?  Say I have good weather most of the year, some goats for milk to make butter and cheese, some chickens for eggs and meat.  How much space would it take for that plus veggies and grains, such that I never need to go shopping for food and still eat well? 

Maybe check out how much land people in history were allowed to utilize for themselves, peasants and that sort of thing.  They would have to give like 9/10ths to the king, or some standard measure.  I'm not well versed on that stuff, but I think there was some sort of standard.  There were similar tactics in early American history with indentured people, I believe.  And they became very proficient at using the little allotment of land, one acre or whatever it was.  Since all farming was done by hand and they were ultimately responsible for 10/10ths, their little spot would require their time and labor as well.  Modern people in all their glorious flab should be able to handle 1/10th of a peasants chores.  (LOL, or maybe not)

I actually am well versed in peasant's relationships to respective lords, and while its fantastically complex in some ways, never was there an amount even approaching fifty percent in "in kind"(barter-direct grain payment) or in specie payment. Indeed, usually it was far less. That said, medieval lords and kings were economic regulators that would make Keynes drool, virtually everything as a seignoirial monopoly(milling, brewing, baking...etc. ), and from these protected monopolies lords would gain a good bit of their income-that and the courts. Even so, the tax burden(especially in England where I'm most familiar) before say 1300, would have been minuscule compared to that demanded by modern states-including regulatory, and "legal" taxes that most sheep ignore today. 

The notion that peasants paid 9/10 to some lord is simply modernist propaganda-they had a hard life, no doubt, but they didn't need to pay for a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. We have not progressed...but in dentistry.

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Bill Brasky

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2009, 01:19:36 AM »

My question is....how much room would it take to grow enough food to live sustainably?  Say I have good weather most of the year, some goats for milk to make butter and cheese, some chickens for eggs and meat.  How much space would it take for that plus veggies and grains, such that I never need to go shopping for food and still eat well? 

Maybe check out how much land people in history were allowed to utilize for themselves, peasants and that sort of thing.  They would have to give like 9/10ths to the king, or some standard measure.  I'm not well versed on that stuff, but I think there was some sort of standard.  There were similar tactics in early American history with indentured people, I believe.  And they became very proficient at using the little allotment of land, one acre or whatever it was.  Since all farming was done by hand and they were ultimately responsible for 10/10ths, their little spot would require their time and labor as well.  Modern people in all their glorious flab should be able to handle 1/10th of a peasants chores.  (LOL, or maybe not)

I actually am well versed in peasant's relationships to respective lords, and while its fantastically complex in some ways, never was there an amount even approaching fifty percent in "in kind"(barter-direct grain payment) or in specie payment. Indeed, usually it was far less. That said, medieval lords and kings were economic regulators that would make Keynes drool, virtually everything as a seignoirial monopoly(milling, brewing, baking...etc. ), and from these protected monopolies lords would gain a good bit of their income-that and the courts. Even so, the tax burden(especially in England where I'm most familiar) before say 1300, would have been minuscule compared to that demanded by modern states-including regulatory, and "legal" taxes that most sheep ignore today. 

The notion that peasants paid 9/10 to some lord is simply modernist propaganda-they had a hard life, no doubt, but they didn't need to pay for a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. We have not progressed...but in dentistry.



Wow, really? 

Then get more well-versed.  Because it seems you've overlooked several billion people spanning ten centuries and six continents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serf
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libertylover

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2009, 03:16:13 AM »

[...]  Yams because of the vitamin content, blight resistance, ease of growth, and ease of storage.  [...]

I included "sweet potatoes" in the above table, but I'm very ignorant of the differences between them and yams.  It seems that yams are native to even warmer regions, which means would be even more difficult to grow in NH.  You'll get 3-5 higher yield with regular potatoes; and, for vitamin content, a greenhouse growing small patches of different leaf veggies year-round can't be beat.


I am sorry I transposed the two in my mind.  The yam is rougher in texture and starchy vs sweet.  The Sweet potato has the higher vitamin content and does come in a white variant.  

Limiting to just three items is extremely difficult.  And then imposing the NH grow season on top of that.  I think you might want to look into hydroponics and expand the list to  staples.  If apples have to grow from seeds to maturity they would be too difficult in a pinch.  In that case I would switch out for tomatoes.

I use hemp products now but it is very difficult for me to cook with as of yet I haven't figured out how to make a go of the hemp flour.  But we enjoy hemp oil, and hemp milk in various things.

If I was to have a subsistence NH garden it would include more stuff than just hemp, sweet potatoes and tomatoes.  I would also include green beans, blackeyed peas, watermelon, spinach, green peppers, cayenne peppers, leeks, garlic, carrots, broccoli and popping corn variant.  

Popping corn can also be used to grind up for corn meal, cracked corn feed for animals and the dry cob is a cheap airlock for making vinegar.  Watermelon, since apples take too long you can make a kind of vinegar from watermelon similar to cider vinegar.  Peas, peppers, leeks, garlic, potatos can be successfully dry stored.  

The animal to keep would be chickens with pigs coming in at a close second.  Chickens are first because they produce eggs.  Pigs because they are fast growing massive breeding garbage disposals.  Pigs also produce methane which can be used to power a generator.  

Another thing I would have an underground home style home or tapped earth home to minimize energy costs.  But this is all pie in the sky as I don't have the funds to start up such a project.



« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 02:11:21 PM by libertylover »
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Bill Brasky

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2009, 03:55:54 AM »

The number of pigs required to power anything with methane would be ridiculous, and the science behind stripping methane requires some extremely complex engineering.  It is so many orders of magnitude in the wrong direction from the simplicity of wind, solar, or hydro, that you should simply agree and abandon the thought as "oh, that hard, huh?"  without a lot of bantering around.  Way hard.  

If you wanted a combustible fuel source, to make flame for cooking or whatnot, you've got wood or you could distill alcohol from a crop that has a natural sugar content, or you could horde coal before the shit hits the fan..  Beyond that, occasionally you can find a farm that has a natural gas tap from its own dedicated well.  Thats not unheard of.  If I had one thing to hope for out of anything on a farm, it would be a gas well.  
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AL the Inconspicuous

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2009, 12:48:33 PM »

[...]  Limiting to just three items is extremely difficult.

The poll question asks "your primary sources of carbohydrates" - you would of course want to eat a diverse diet, grow small patches of a wide variety of fruits and veggies, keep bees for pollination and honey, fish, hunt, trade with your neighbors, etc, etc, etc.


And then imposing the NH grow season on top of that.

My original FSP state of choice was Alaska.  :lol:

It might actually be easier to hunt / fish / gather enough food there though, and some varieties of potatoes / oats would do OK as well.  They even grow stuff in Iceland!  When there's a will, there's a way.


I think you might want to look into hydroponics  [...]

Definitely a good idea!  The yield benefits are amazing!  But this thread is mostly about short-term low-budget solutions.


I just hemp products now but it is very difficult for me to cook with as of yet I haven't figured out how to make a go of the hemp flour.

Yeah, that's an important consideration - a lot of foods we're used to are dependent on a lot of mechanization that wouldn't be available / economical when bootstrapping an agricultural economy in the event of a crisis.


Another thing I would have an underground home style home or tapped earth home to minimize energy costs.

Hmmm...  Hobbit holes!  :lol:

That's probably something that still requires some research, and is probably more difficult to build for now.  This thread is about low-tech solutions for making sure you have enough food 2-8 months from now when your dried goods run out.  I'm imagining a scenario where the U.S. government was embarrassed into allowing New Hampshire (or just Coös County) to secede, but got the surrounding states & Canada to blockade us, thinking we'd be forced to surrender before we had the chance to apply pressure to lift the blockade.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2009, 01:38:43 PM »

The number of pigs required to power anything with methane would be ridiculous, and the science behind stripping methane requires some extremely complex engineering.  It is so many orders of magnitude in the wrong direction from the simplicity of wind, solar, or hydro, that you should simply agree and abandon the thought as "oh, that hard, huh?"  without a lot of bantering around.  Way hard.  

If you wanted a combustible fuel source, to make flame for cooking or whatnot, you've got wood or you could distill alcohol from a crop that has a natural sugar content, or you could horde coal before the shit hits the fan..  Beyond that, occasionally you can find a farm that has a natural gas tap from its own dedicated well.  Thats not unheard of.  If I had one thing to hope for out of anything on a farm, it would be a gas well.  
The science behind it isn't what's hard.  It's the execution.
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libertylover

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2009, 02:35:01 PM »

The number of pigs required to power anything with methane would be ridiculous, and the science behind stripping methane requires some extremely complex engineering.  It is so many orders of magnitude in the wrong direction from the simplicity of wind, solar, or hydro, that you should simply agree and abandon the thought as "oh, that hard, huh?"  without a lot of bantering around.  Way hard.  

If you wanted a combustible fuel source, to make flame for cooking or whatnot, you've got wood or you could distill alcohol from a crop that has a natural sugar content, or you could horde coal before the shit hits the fan..  Beyond that, occasionally you can find a farm that has a natural gas tap from its own dedicated well.  Thats not unheard of.  If I had one thing to hope for out of anything on a farm, it would be a gas well.  
The science behind it isn't what's hard.  It's the execution.

I don't know this high school kids project made it look fairly easy and low cost.

http://www.small-farm-permaculture-and-sustainable-living.com/methane_generator.html

Poo to power seems like a fantastic idea to me.  Could always supplement with the family poo.   

To use solar, wind or hydro you have to have an outside energy source of either sun, wind or running water.  Methane is ultimately the most dependable because every animal poos.  Even if the methane is used more like propane as people use it for cooking and gas lighting.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2009, 02:54:29 PM »

The number of pigs required to power anything with methane would be ridiculous, and the science behind stripping methane requires some extremely complex engineering.  It is so many orders of magnitude in the wrong direction from the simplicity of wind, solar, or hydro, that you should simply agree and abandon the thought as "oh, that hard, huh?"  without a lot of bantering around.  Way hard.  

If you wanted a combustible fuel source, to make flame for cooking or whatnot, you've got wood or you could distill alcohol from a crop that has a natural sugar content, or you could horde coal before the shit hits the fan..  Beyond that, occasionally you can find a farm that has a natural gas tap from its own dedicated well.  Thats not unheard of.  If I had one thing to hope for out of anything on a farm, it would be a gas well.  
The science behind it isn't what's hard.  It's the execution.

I don't know this high school kids project made it look fairly easy and low cost.

http://www.small-farm-permaculture-and-sustainable-living.com/methane_generator.html

Poo to power seems like a fantastic idea to me.  Could always supplement with the family poo.   

To use solar, wind or hydro you have to have an outside energy source of either sun, wind or running water.  Methane is ultimately the most dependable because every animal poos.  Even if the methane is used more like propane as people use it for cooking and gas lighting.
Of course we already do poo to power today.  I've read (but have not confirmed) that cow shit is a major source of Methane in the USA.  but I think its even less efficient than Hydro or Wind or Solar.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: If you had to grow your own food...
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2009, 06:36:25 PM »

My question is....how much room would it take to grow enough food to live sustainably?  Say I have good weather most of the year, some goats for milk to make butter and cheese, some chickens for eggs and meat.  How much space would it take for that plus veggies and grains, such that I never need to go shopping for food and still eat well? 

Maybe check out how much land people in history were allowed to utilize for themselves, peasants and that sort of thing.  They would have to give like 9/10ths to the king, or some standard measure.  I'm not well versed on that stuff, but I think there was some sort of standard.  There were similar tactics in early American history with indentured people, I believe.  And they became very proficient at using the little allotment of land, one acre or whatever it was.  Since all farming was done by hand and they were ultimately responsible for 10/10ths, their little spot would require their time and labor as well.  Modern people in all their glorious flab should be able to handle 1/10th of a peasants chores.  (LOL, or maybe not)

I actually am well versed in peasant's relationships to respective lords, and while its fantastically complex in some ways, never was there an amount even approaching fifty percent in "in kind"(barter-direct grain payment) or in specie payment. Indeed, usually it was far less. That said, medieval lords and kings were economic regulators that would make Keynes drool, virtually everything as a seignoirial monopoly(milling, brewing, baking...etc. ), and from these protected monopolies lords would gain a good bit of their income-that and the courts. Even so, the tax burden(especially in England where I'm most familiar) before say 1300, would have been minuscule compared to that demanded by modern states-including regulatory, and "legal" taxes that most sheep ignore today. 

The notion that peasants paid 9/10 to some lord is simply modernist propaganda-they had a hard life, no doubt, but they didn't need to pay for a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. We have not progressed...but in dentistry.



So if there serfs were taxed only 50% and not 90%, then you would expect one farmer for every nonfarmer in society, otherwise, where would the surplus food go? My understanding was that these societies were about 90% agrarian. Since you're the expert, you tell me.
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