If you don't support gay marriage, you must be in the closet.

[Tom Foppiano]

There seems to be some weird logic making its way around FTL. Apparently, all of the politicians who don't support "gay rights" are really homosexuals. Rick Santorum comes to mind, but I've heard this nonsense about others as well.

Don't get wrong. I support gay marriage, gay adoption, and gay butt sex. But just because someone doesn't support those things, doesn't mean they're gay. Even if someone is extremely opposed to gayness, it doesn't mean they're in the closet.

Think about how most all of us here don't support aggression. In fact, we super duper, extra strongly, extremely don't support aggression. Does that mean that we're all closet statists? Unless we use bankrupt logic, we usually assume that people who don't support aggression....(wait for it).......don't support aggression!

"Yes, Tom, but what about all of those people like Ted Haggard who are gay and don't support gay rights?" Answer: You're talking about a very small number of people. Last time I checked somewhere around 50% of the population doesn't support gay marriage. Are we really going to say that 50% of the population is gay? What about people who used to not support gay rights and now do support them. Did they convert from being gay and are now straight?

[dalebert]

You're straw-manning yet again. I don't know anyone who actually believes that. If they did, of course it would be absurd. They're simply pointing out that the extremely vocal hate-mongerers often turn out to be using that loudness to cover up for something, which may be that they're gay. It might also be some other insecurity. It doesn't have to be but it often is.

[Tom Foppiano]

I'm "straw-manning yet again?" First, I'd like to know when I did this before. Second, this is isn't a straw man. Ian (and even someone on your show...I think it was you) have claimed that Santorum is likely gay because he extremely opposes gay rights. Where the fuck is the straw man? Should I re-listen to the shows and write it up word for word?

Its silly to think that just because some anti-gay people, like Haggard, were in fact gay, that Santorum is gay. That's like saying that my local Catholic Priest (if there is one) molests young boys because other priests did.

Santorum might be gay. I don't know. But I don't think that being anti-gay is proof one way or the other.

[dalebert]

Someone did speculate about that on the show. I didn't go into my schpeal yet again about how it doesn't necessarily mean that because I've done it many times. It bothered me too at the time and I just didn't want to argue with them and derail the subject.

Be clear though. It's not just that he's against gay marriage. It's the extremely vocal negative obsession that makes people suspicious of something. It's like over-compensation. It's just suspicion. It's not proof. I don't think anyone is claiming a 100% correlation. Another form of that insecurity and overcompensation is when someone exhibits an almost neurotic obsession with publicly demonstrating or declaring their heterosexuality.

But no, of course it doesn't always mean they're gay. It doesn't even mean they're hiding something. It's just a pretty common phenomenon. There's no scientific study that I know of.

[Tom Foppiano]

As an aside....I don't think I've ever heard someone exhibiting "an almost neurotic obsession with publicly demonstrating or declaring their heterosexuality." I'm sure its happened. But I may be tone deaf to such declarations or may not delve into gay/straight issues enough to have run across such a person.

I just don't like it when people accuse others of being gay because they don't support gay rights/hate gay people and are very vocal about their opinions. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[dalebert]

I just don't like it when people accuse others of being gay because they don't support gay rights/hate gay people and are very vocal about their opinions. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I'll try to explain it then, but first, the environment has changed so much for the better for gay people that I don't think it's nearly as common as it has been even in fairly recent history. It's less common in the younger generations in particular.

See, take a particularly uncomfortable taboo like homosexuality which can result in a lot of bullshit or even violence but is not overtly apparent like race and can be concealed, then there's an incentive to convince people that you're not gay. People have been known to over-compensate by being extra womanizing, at least in how they express themselves, sometimes to the point which most people would find really inappropriate, like saying the things that you whisper to your buddies about hot women but saying it right in front of her and really loudly for everyone to hear. After all, they're not really trying to impress the woman. It's a display for everyone else.

Another case is to loudly and frequently express how much you just can't stand homos. How can you possibly be one when you hate them so much, right? IT'S WRAWNG! THE LAWD SAYS SO IN TEH BIBAL!

It's not that complicated. I thought it was something pretty broadly recognized and I'm surprised this is news to you, but as I said, times are changing. Maybe that's why.

But as I said before, I'm usually quick to point out that it's an oversimplification. The same tactics can be compensation for other kinds of insecurity, though usually masculinity-related as both kinds of overcompensation are like expressions of hyper-masculinity. And yes, of course I wouldn't presume that this explains every example of said behavior. It just frequently tends to be the case. They have done studies that showed a correlation between guys expressing overt homophobia and being turned on by gay porn vs. not being homophobic and not being turned on by gay porn. I'm always leary of studies and whether they were conducted properly so I'm going more on anecdotal experience, both my own and those others have talked about.

[Turd Ferguson]

I dont think Santorum is in the closet.

He just hates fags

and muslims........even the non-terrorist ones.

and anyone else that doesn't want to eradicate non-christians

A truly dangerous man, yet simple to understand.

[SonicThePorcupine]

Santorum likes it in the butt.

[dalebert]

I dont think Santorum is in the closet.

He just hates fags

and muslims........even the non-terrorist ones.

and anyone else that doesn't want to eradicate non-christians

A truly dangerous man, yet simple to understand.

Well, and his situation is complicated by the fact that he's a politician. So he has an incentive to play on these societal hang-ups even if they don't apply to him. The Xian right gets loyal foot-soldiers who will donate big bucks and will contribute lots of volunteer hours to campaigns who will spout the rhetoric they wanna hear.

[Turd Ferguson]

I dont think Santorum is in the closet.

He just hates fags

and muslims........even the non-terrorist ones.

and anyone else that doesn't want to eradicate non-christians

A truly dangerous man, yet simple to understand.

. The Xian right gets loyal foot-soldiers who will donate big bucks and will contribute lots of volunteer hours to campaigns who will spout the rhetoric they wanna hear.

Which would make him an even MORE dangerous man for getting that demographic of people riled up for a cause he didn't actually believe himself.

In Santorums case, I think he actually is right along with them.

[dalebert]

In Santorums case, I think he actually is right along with them.

I think you're right. I think he was indoctrinated into all of this from an early age. Someone like him, I think his biggest insecurity is his faith. He's overcompensating to push away any doubts that might enter his head about his kooky religious beliefs. Stuff that kooky takes a lot of evangelism and surrounding yourself with fellow believers and so on. Subconsciously, his faith level is probably very sketchy, but he believes it just enough to be terrified of going to Hell.

[Turd Ferguson]

Straight from Rick's nephews mouth (actually his fingers, since it was typed):

"My Uncle Rick cannot fathom a society in which people cooperate and work with each other freely. When Republicans were spending so much money under President Bush, my uncle was right there along with them as a senator. The reason we have so much debt is not only because of Democrats, but also because of big-spending Republicans like my Uncle Rick."

[alaric89]

Is this about that dude riding along with Rick who triggered Derrick J's Gaydar? Geeze he just said stuff as he saw them. A lot of the most anti gay people do have some sort of issue. When I was a teenager and yanking it 3 times a day and felt guilty about it, I was as anti-masturbation as a nun running a leper colony.

[Tom Foppiano]

I don't like psychoanalyzing every "hate filled" person. It is very possible that Santorum hates gays because he took some bible passages literally. Or maybe he likes being a member of the social conservative "team" and feels good being a part of a group. Or maybe he once thought negatively about gays and now doesn't want to change his view because it would mean that he used to be wrong. Or maybe his wife is really hateful and he is just sucking up to her. I don't know. And none of you guys know either.

Someone else can just as easily analyse my positions and say that I'm insecure about my position in life and that's why I blame the state for most of society's woes. It doesn't matter that I'm actually quite happy personally and financially. I have "fringe" positions; therefore I must have psychological shortcomings.

I feel the same way about this as Ian feels about 9/11. There is enough bad shit about Santorum that we can easily prove without having to delve into conspiracy theories.

[Tom Foppiano]

Is this about that dude riding along with Rick who triggered Derrick J's Gaydar? Geeze he just said stuff as he saw them. A lot of the most anti gay people do have some sort of issue. When I was a teenager and yanking it 3 times a day and felt guilty about it, I was as anti-masturbation as a nun running a leper colony.

No. This was brought up prior to that comment.

"A lot of the most anti gay people have some sort of issue."
Thats what I'm talking about. Its not enough that their ideas are bad.....we have to claim that they have "issues." And the most common "issue" I here is that they are secretly gay.

Are you secretly a violent aggressionist? Aren't you anti-violent aggression?