Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  If Gaza was granted statehood.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: If Gaza was granted statehood.  (Read 11425 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Diogenes The Cynic

  • Cynic. Pessimist. Skeptic. Jerk.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3727
    • View Profile
If Gaza was granted statehood.
« on: July 17, 2009, 02:36:16 PM »

Imagine if Gaza was granted statehood immediately and unilaterally.

Israel just said, yup, you can govern yourselves. They then ended Gazas restrictions on the airports, and sea.

Then what?

Other nations couldnt justifiably send money to them in the form of aid forever because they would have to open up some sort of economy? What would they do? Less then 1% of the area is arable. People there dont have many trades.

Any act of terror by Hamas could legitimately be viewed as a causus-belli, and treated as such.

They dont have anything to mine, or farm and manufacturing is nonexistent.

Think about it, what kind of country could it be?
Logged
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

markuzick

  • Atheist Pro-Lifer
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1876
  • Dr. Montessori: Discipline through liberty
    • View Profile
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2009, 04:18:20 PM »

Imagine if Gaza was granted statehood immediately and unilaterally.

Israel just said, yup, you can govern yourselves. They then ended Gazas restrictions on the airports, and sea.

Then what?

Other nations couldnt justifiably send money to them in the form of aid forever because they would have to open up some sort of economy? What would they do? Less then 1% of the area is arable. People there dont have many trades.

Any act of terror by Hamas could legitimately be viewed as a causus-belli, and treated as such.

They dont have anything to mine, or farm and manufacturing is nonexistent.

Think about it, what kind of country could it be?

Yes. A terrorist state won't work. The Jews and Arabs will either learn to live together as equals or they will die together as enemies. The Israelis have the upper hand, so the responsibility falls upon them to allow the people of Gaza and other Arab aliens to trade and travel freely, while cracking down hard on any terrorists and their organizations, be they Hamas or crazy settlers.

Only fair but tough treatment of both sides, opening up markets and reduction of the state will offer a chance for peace to take hold.

I'm not holding my breath.
Logged
As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 05:36:31 PM »

Quote
Other nations couldnt justifiably send money to them in the form of aid forever because they would have to open up some sort of economy? What would they do? Less then 1% of the area is arable. People there dont have many trades.

Any act of terror by Hamas could legitimately be viewed as a causus-belli, and treated as such.

They dont have anything to mine, or farm and manufacturing is nonexistent.

Yeah, its not like having free trade has allowed any small geographic locations with negligible natural resources to succeed economically

Hong Kong

Singapore


These people
> people like you who want to destroy freedoms over "an act of war"

Terrorism is just murder. No more no less. Its only a big deal because you make it a big deal. Hundreds more Israelis die from car accidents than die from terrorism, yet no one in Israel is decrying the massive dangers from cars, and arguing that maybe we should restrict Israelis freedom to drive over 30MPH, but its perfectly okay to restrict millions of gazans right to free trade, free movement and firearm ownership.

If any terrorist attack counts as "causus-beli", then does that mean America would be able to legitimately invade Saudi Arabia since thats where the majority of the 9/11 terrorists came from?

Now this is not defending Hamas. I think Hamas should be rigorously opposed, and pursued as murderers, and preferably people in Gaza would defend themselves against them. You don't deal with murderers in Israel by bombing residential areas so don't do it in Gaza.

Oh and please don't bring up "BUT EGYPT RESTRICTS TRADE TOO!", what egypt do is equally fucked up, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about Israel "letting" Gazans have a state (incidently Israel bomb Egpyts borders to stop smugglers/illegal immigrants from gaza, but Egypt doesn't bomb Israels borders.

If you hate Hamas so much, maybe you should think about the circumstances under which they gained power.

Hint, they didn't come to power on a ticket of moderation and diplomacy. Its exactly the same type of asshole who gets elected in Israel. The kind of person who thinks you "win" down the barrel of a gun.




No wait, I got confused for a second. If Israel stopped restricting trade and movement, it would be the end of world, Hamas would kill all Israelis, because current restrictions do such a good job of keeping weapons out of Gaza.

In other news, if any country legalized drugs there's be chaos in the streets and pandemonium in hospital emergency rooms, everyone would be on heroin and there would be a crime epidemic.

And if countrys that banned guns unbanned them, there'd be a massive increase in shooting sprees and gun crime.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 05:38:44 PM by fatcat »
Logged

libertylover

  • No Title Needed
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2009, 04:51:31 AM »

Well said Fat Cat. 
Logged

avshae

  • Guest
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2009, 12:02:04 PM »

Gaza already is a state. It is of no importance that the Gaza entity is not formally recognized as a state. Gaza has all the attributes of an independent state, apart from and openly hostile towards Israel. This is not a hypothetical situation. There is no Israeli military or governance in Gaza. There is a wall, Israel one one side, Gaza on the other.

You say that if in the future Gaza will become a state then any act of terrorism will be considered casus-belli, and I say that Gaza already is a state, for all practical matters, and there already is continuous casus-belli.

The only problem is that Hamas, despite taking an ass-whooping like no other, and being under external siege (the only limitation on which is self-imposed by Israel in order to prevent humanitarian disaster), just don't get it. They won't surrender and stand down even to save the last Palestinian, let alone to ensure some kind of positive future prospect for Gaza. So the state of war persists.

Israel does not restrict trade or movement inside Gaza, Israel does not even restrict bearing of arms inside Gaza. Israel is simply blockading a hostile entity with which it is in a state of war, it is as simple as that. Israel doesn't care who is bearing arms inside Gaza, it just assumes that anyone bearing arms is a legitimate military target. Israel does not intend to police Gaza and pursue murderers, Israel does not even presume to have jurisdiction in Gaza.

The Gaza entity has clearly demonstrated that they do not seek a peaceful coexistence, and following war did not have the brains to surrender, so this is the consequence. As soon as Hamas surrenders unconditionally this whole situation will be over and Gaza has a chance for a fresh start.

Logged

libertylover

  • No Title Needed
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3791
    • View Profile
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2009, 12:37:01 PM »

Gaza already is a state. It is of no importance that the Gaza entity is not formally recognized as a state. Gaza has all the attributes of an independent state, apart from and openly hostile towards Israel. This is not a hypothetical situation. There is no Israeli military or governance in Gaza. There is a wall, Israel one one side, Gaza on the other.

You say that if in the future Gaza will become a state then any act of terrorism will be considered casus-belli, and I say that Gaza already is a state, for all practical matters, and there already is continuous casus-belli.

The only problem is that Hamas, despite taking an ass-whooping like no other, and being under external siege (the only limitation on which is self-imposed by Israel in order to prevent humanitarian disaster), just don't get it. They won't surrender and stand down even to save the last Palestinian, let alone to ensure some kind of positive future prospect for Gaza. So the state of war persists.

Israel does not restrict trade or movement inside Gaza, Israel does not even restrict bearing of arms inside Gaza. Israel is simply blockading a hostile entity with which it is in a state of war, it is as simple as that. Israel doesn't care who is bearing arms inside Gaza, it just assumes that anyone bearing arms is a legitimate military target. Israel does not intend to police Gaza and pursue murderers, Israel does not even presume to have jurisdiction in Gaza.

The Gaza entity has clearly demonstrated that they do not seek a peaceful coexistence, and following war did not have the brains to surrender, so this is the consequence. As soon as Hamas surrenders unconditionally this whole situation will be over and Gaza has a chance for a fresh start.



Utter and total BULL SHIT.   More propaganda and falsehoods posted by a bigot.   
Logged

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2009, 01:04:48 PM »

Israel does not restrict trade or movement inside Gaza, Israel does not even restrict bearing of arms inside Gaza. Israel is simply blockading a hostile entity with which it is in a state of war, it is as simple as that. Israel doesn't care who is bearing arms inside Gaza, it just assumes that anyone bearing arms is a legitimate military target. Israel does not intend to police Gaza and pursue murderers, Israel does not even presume to have jurisdiction in Gaza.

The Gaza entity has clearly demonstrated that they do not seek a peaceful coexistence, and following war did not have the brains to surrender, so this is the consequence. As soon as Hamas surrenders unconditionally this whole situation will be over and Gaza has a chance for a fresh start.

Israel doesn't restrict trade or movement inside Gaza?

I'm embarrassed for you if you genuinely think that, although I'm sure your just playing bullshit definition games, that Israel doesn't stop people trading inside Gaza, so that makes it okay for them to restrict any trade going into Gaza from another country.

A tiny place like Gaza with negligible resources and arable land cannot be economically prosperous without free trade with the rest of the world. How well do you think Hong Kong or Singapore would do if the majority of their trade with other countries was restricted by another government?

So anyone with a gun in Gaza is a "legitimate target"? Does it work both ways? Is anyone in Israel with a gun fair game?

How exactly is stopping any trade of weapons into Gaza not restricting Gazans right to bear arms?

If an Israeli wants to sell a weapon to a Gazan, how exactly is that anyones fucking business? Not forgetting of course weapon prohibition doesn't work.

How exactly is anyone with a gun in Gaza a "legitimate military target", by which I assume you mean "someone its okay to kill".

Doesn't someone need to harm someone before they become a criminal?. Wait i forgot, every man woman and child is a card carrying member of Hamas and has personally been responsible for the death of at least 1 Israeli.

As much as you like to think of Israel as some homogeneous unit "Israel" does not have the right to stop Gazans and Israelis from working and trading together.

"The Gaza entity".....

ridiculous.

As if every man woman and child has the same mind, the same opinion, the same actions. As if the majority of peaceful gazans are responsible for the minority of violent sociopaths in Hamas.

Only in your fucked up fantasy world. Enjoy your war games, psychopath.

Quote
As soon as Hamas surrenders unconditionally this whole situation will be over and Gaza has a chance for a fresh start.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Logged

avshae

  • Guest
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2009, 03:46:46 PM »

You're mixing between two things that don't belong together - your libertarian agenda, and Israel's involvement with Gaza.

If you think there is lack of individual rights in Gaza, why do you blame the Israeli regime for it? Hamas is the authority controlling Gaza these days - if you think Hamas is not providing it's people with enough individual rights, take it up with them. Suppose that you perceive a lack of individual rights in the UK, do you go blaming France for it?

The issue of freedom in Gaza is completely detached from the issue of hostility between Israel and Gaza. Even if we go along with your ideology of free trade and freedom of bearing arms, that still does not mean that country A, which is at war with country B, is in any way obligated to ensure freedom for  citizens of country B. Virtually all arms in Gaza end up in Hamas hands. Does "freedom to bear arms" dictate that you should allow or provide arms to your enemy so that he can shoot at you?

It is not the Israel gov's responsibility to uphold the rights of Gazan people, anymore than it is France's govs' responsibility to uphold the rights of UK citizens. It is Israel's responsibility to ensure it's citizens' security, by preventing weapons from reaching the hands of Hamas, and seeking the eradication of Hamas by any means possible (short of humanitarian disaster or violation of ethical laws of war).

Logged

fatcat

  • Guest
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2009, 06:02:38 PM »

If you think there is lack of individual rights in Gaza, why do you blame the Israeli regime for it? Hamas is the authority controlling Gaza these days - if you think Hamas is not providing it's people with enough individual rights, take it up with them. Suppose that you perceive a lack of individual rights in the UK, do you go blaming France for it?

France don't restrict trade and movement between UK and french citizens.

France doesn't bomb smuggling tunnels on all of the UKs borders.

France doesn't periodically shut off electricity being purchased off France power companies.

France doesn't stop millions of dollars of food aid from reaching the UK.

France doesn't periodically bomb residential areas in the UK.

France don't do anything to make me less free as a person in the UK (or at least if they do its so minor I don't even notice).

I actually didn't mention "individual rights". Israel doesn't do alot of individual meddling with Gazans freedom. What it does do is a whole bunch of large scale stuff like restricting trade and movement of millions of people. Just because Israel aren't actually governing inside Gaza, doesn't mean they're not restricting freedom.

The whole "its hamas jurisdiction" is a complete straw man. The Egyptian government is bullshit, the Hamas government is bullshit, I agree, you don't have to keep bringing it up. I'm only talking about it with you because you don't agree that the Israeli government is bullshit.

You often like to portray that "Israel" is doing "Gaza" a favor by trading with them, supplying power, etc, and that "Israel" could quite easily "cut off" Gaza and they would be worse off.

Now "Israel" and "Gaza" aren't people, they're places. If Israeli companies don't want to do business with Gazan's than I expect that they won't trade. If electricity companies don't want to sell electricity to Gaza then I expect they won't do it.

Even if restricting trade stopped Hamas getting weapons (which it doesn't), it still wouldn't be justified, because the vast majority of Gazans haven't done anything wrong, haven't killed or stolen from anyone, and should be free to

Remember, we're not just talking about the restriction of weapons trade, but ALL TRADE under the guise of "stopping hamas getting weapons".

"its war" or "hamas need to surrender first" is arbitrary rhetoric, it doesn't change the fact that innocent people should be free to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else

Has there been a period in history where Hamas haven't had weapons since the trade restrictions began?

Who do you think the tunnel traders are dealing with? Egyptian and Israeli business men.

Obviously theres a demand for goods in Gaza above what Israel allow, or tunnel smugglers wouldn't spend thousands of dollars building tunnels to trade through.


Quote
Does "freedom to bear arms" dictate that you should allow or provide arms to your enemy so that he can shoot at you?

Do you make no distinction between those two positions? When have I ever said something like "Israel should give Hamas weapons". That is the worst straw man I've ever heard.

I don't want Hamas to be in power, I want them to be in jail, this doesn't mean I want to arrest or kill anyone else in Gaza

Can you not get it through your head that there are other people in Gaza besides Hamas? Over a million of them, really, im not lying.

All your arguments can be used to restrict freedoms anywhere.

People in every country in the world murder people with weapons. Why don't aren't you in favor in banning guns in Israel? Wouldn't it stop Israelis getting weapons to use for murders?

Oh wait, I forgot "ITS WAR"
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 06:05:39 PM by fatcat »
Logged

avshae

  • Guest
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2009, 01:54:54 AM »

If you think there is lack of individual rights in Gaza, why do you blame the Israeli regime for it? Hamas is the authority controlling Gaza these days - if you think Hamas is not providing it's people with enough individual rights, take it up with them. Suppose that you perceive a lack of individual rights in the UK, do you go blaming France for it?

France don't restrict trade and movement between UK and french citizens.
Of course they don't, since there is peaceful coexistence between France and the UK. The UK charter does not include a specific agenda to destroy France. UK soldiers are not firing rockets at French cities.

You evaded the UK-France example, but take two countries at war - and Gaza is at war with Israel if ever there was war. Take the American attacks on German merchant convoys in WWII. Was that in you opinion an unjustified act of preventing freedom of trade? Or was it a legitimate war effort. I'll bet that in 1939 Germany did its best to seal off any supplies, military or non-military, from reaching the coasts of Britain, was that also an act of "restricting freedom of trade"? Terms such as "freedom of trade" and "freedom to bear arms", refer to a government's internal policy, and you are using them out of context.


Quote
Does "freedom to bear arms" dictate that you should allow or provide arms to your enemy so that he can shoot at you?

Do you make no distinction between those two positions?
There is no distinction between allowing arms into Gaza and giving them to Hamas - virtually all arms in Gaza end up in Hamas hands therefore it is exactly the same thing.

In 1993, as part of the Oslo accords, Israel (shorthand for "the Israeli governement", just to make it clear) agreed to give Arafat 10 thousand or so guns, supposedly so that the PA would have the means to stop terrorism and keep law and order. Less than 3 years later those same guns were pointed at Israel. Today, these guns constitute a significant part of Hamas' arsenal. Allowing arms into Gaza strictly equals giving them to Hamas. Would you have advised Churchill to allow arms into Nazi Germany during WWII? After all, not all Germans were Nazis, and some of them might have needed weapons to defend themselves against Nazi tyranny. It is exactly the same thing.

People in every country in the world murder people with weapons. Why don't aren't you in favor in banning guns in Israel? Wouldn't it stop Israelis getting weapons to use for murders?
Since holding a firearm requires skill and responsibility, I am in favor of regulating the distribution of arms to ensure that they will not fall into incapable and irresponsible hands. Similarly I think one should obtain a drivers licence before being allowed by the state to operate an automobile, since this requires proficiency and responsibility, and has the potential to be dangerous if used carelessly.

Unfortunately this is not possible to do in Gaza right now.

Logged

markuzick

  • Atheist Pro-Lifer
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1876
  • Dr. Montessori: Discipline through liberty
    • View Profile
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2009, 02:04:07 AM »

Both fatcat and avshae are correct. They just interpret the situation from different perspectives. In my opinion all this simply underscores the futility of creating a Palestinian state/s.

It's unlikely that a Palestinian state that isn't run by terrorists armed and funded by powers hostile toward Israel could last for long, even if it could exist at all.

The only hope for peace is for Israel to reabsorb all Arabs that reside in palestine into their society with full respect for their personal and economic rights. If the Israelis are not up to this task, they face a future of continuous warfare and/or civil war and, ultimately, their doom.

Under normal circumstances, states can get away with ignoring the rights of their subjects, as long as they at least maintain some popular support for these policies with their voters. This won't work in Israel. It will take much more than treating Arabs and Jews as equals to overcome old grievances. Both sides need to be seduced by the opportunities of extreme economic and personal freedom in order to forget their hatreds.

My guess is that the Israelis are not up to the task.( May they prove me wrong.) My advise to any Jew or Arab in palestine is to find some way to get themselves and their families out, before it's too late.
Logged
As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

  • A Cut Above The Rest
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8299
  • If government is the answer, the question is stupi
    • View Profile
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2009, 02:12:18 AM »

If you think there is lack of individual rights in Gaza, why do you blame the Israeli regime for it? Hamas is the authority controlling Gaza these days - if you think Hamas is not providing it's people with enough individual rights, take it up with them. Suppose that you perceive a lack of individual rights in the UK, do you go blaming France for it?

France don't restrict trade and movement between UK and french citizens.
Of course they don't, since there is peaceful coexistence between France and the UK. The UK charter does not include a specific agenda to destroy France. UK soldiers are not firing rockets at French cities.

You evaded the UK-France example, but take two countries at war - and Gaza is at war with Israel if ever there was war. Take the American attacks on German merchant convoys in WWII. Was that in you opinion an unjustified act of preventing freedom of trade? Or was it a legitimate war effort. I'll bet that in 1939 Germany did its best to seal off any supplies, military or non-military, from reaching the coasts of Britain, was that also an act of "restricting freedom of trade"? Terms such as "freedom of trade" and "freedom to bear arms", refer to a government's internal policy, and you are using them out of context.


Quote
Does "freedom to bear arms" dictate that you should allow or provide arms to your enemy so that he can shoot at you?

Do you make no distinction between those two positions?
There is no distinction between allowing arms into Gaza and giving them to Hamas - virtually all arms in Gaza end up in Hamas hands therefore it is exactly the same thing.

In 1993, as part of the Oslo accords, Israel (shorthand for "the Israeli governement", just to make it clear) agreed to give Arafat 10 thousand or so guns, supposedly so that the PA would have the means to stop terrorism and keep law and order. Less than 3 years later those same guns were pointed at Israel. Today, these guns constitute a significant part of Hamas' arsenal. Allowing arms into Gaza strictly equals giving them to Hamas. Would you have advised Churchill to allow arms into Nazi Germany during WWII? After all, not all Germans were Nazis, and some of them might have needed weapons to defend themselves against Nazi tyranny. It is exactly the same thing.

People in every country in the world murder people with weapons. Why don't aren't you in favor in banning guns in Israel? Wouldn't it stop Israelis getting weapons to use for murders?
Since holding a firearm requires skill and responsibility, I am in favor of regulating the distribution of arms to ensure that they will not fall into incapable and irresponsible hands. Similarly I think one should obtain a drivers licence before being allowed by the state to operate an automobile, since this requires proficiency and responsibility, and has the potential to be dangerous if used carelessly.

Unfortunately this is not possible to do in Gaza right now.


I was with you all the way until that last line.  Mega fail man.  The government is not the solution.  Regulating firearm ownership always leads to tyrrany.  Check out the Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership at www.jpfo.org , a great organization of gun owning Jews like myself.
Logged
"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

  • A Cut Above The Rest
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8299
  • If government is the answer, the question is stupi
    • View Profile
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 02:18:15 AM »

Both fatcat and avshae are correct. They just interpret the situation from different perspectives. In my opinion all this simply underscores the futility of creating a Palestinian state/s.

It's unlikely that a Palestinian state that isn't run by terrorists armed and funded by powers hostile toward Israel could last for long, even if it could exist at all.

The only hope for peace is for Israel to reabsorb all Arabs that reside in palestine into their society with full respect for their personal and economic rights. If the Israelis are not up to this task, they face a future of continuous warfare and/or civil war and, ultimately, their doom.

Under normal circumstances, states can get away with ignoring the rights of their subjects, as long as they at least maintain some popular support for these policies with their voters. This won't work in Israel. It will take much more than treating Arabs and Jews as equals to overcome old grievances. Both sides need to be seduced by the opportunities of extreme economic and personal freedom in order to forget their hatreds.

My guess is that the Israelis are not up to the task.( May they prove me wrong.) My advise to any Jew or Arab in palestine is to find some way to get themselves and their families out, before it's too late.
There are no Jews in Palestine, Hamas and Fatah already killed or drove them all out.  The Jews live in Israel.

I think that I agree with you though that an economic seduction is the best solution for peace in Gaza.  I think that the Gazan people need to look at the West Bank which has finally settled down and is making money and is not fucked with by Israel as much because of the fact that they're not launching rockets at Israel every day. 

Hamas needs to learn the lesson that the Israeli people will not put up with their shit.  Everytime they launch an RPG into Israel Gaza gets fucked over hard.  This is no longer the case in the West Bank though, I believe because they are no longer promoting violence as they are in Gaza, and they are more interested in developing economically.
Logged
"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

markuzick

  • Atheist Pro-Lifer
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1876
  • Dr. Montessori: Discipline through liberty
    • View Profile
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 03:50:00 AM »


There are no Jews in Palestine, Hamas and Fatah already killed or drove them all out.  The Jews live in Israel.

I think that I agree with you though that an economic seduction is the best solution for peace in Gaza.  I think that the Gazan people need to look at the West Bank which has finally settled down and is making money and is not fucked with by Israel as much because of the fact that they're not launching rockets at Israel every day. 

Hamas needs to learn the lesson that the Israeli people will not put up with their shit.  Everytime they launch an RPG into Israel Gaza gets fucked over hard.  This is no longer the case in the West Bank though, I believe because they are no longer promoting violence as they are in Gaza, and they are more interested in developing economically.


Palestine is just the name I'm using for the general area that contains Israel, Palestine and Gaza.

Is the West Bank really settled down and making money? Aren't the people living under all kinds of restrictions on their liberties and numerous indignities? How long do you think it will take before there's another uprising?

I understand why the Israelis feel they need to control them in order to suppress terrorism but they are going about this by denying them their basic rights and will continue to do so as long as they are autonomous, for the reasons I mentioned above.

The Israelis must learn to live with all the people under its rule, not segregate them into prison-like ghettos. Attempts to create Palestinian states only result in the current unacceptable and explosive situation.
Logged
As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Alex Libman 14

  • Guest
Re: If Gaza was granted statehood.
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 07:02:25 AM »

The Jewtroll is reviving colonial rhetoric that would make King Leopold proud.

And the Palestinians should never agree to just accept sovereignty over their ghetto - they should fight for unconditional freedom, that is reconquering everything that was stolen from them by the Zionist movement since the 19th century, minus the minuscule droplets of land that were actually purchased by the Jews before before any major coercion was utilized.  In absence of Zionist force, the government in that region would most likely resemble that of Lebanon.  Most sane Jews want to leave anyway, and the first-world nations should open their borders to them.  The minority that stay should be treated at least as well as they were since Islam came to dominate that region, driving out the much less tolerant remnants of the Roman Empire.

The broader victory would of course go further than that - undoing the deliberate political influence the western powers have had in that region, of which Israel was just one of many steps, and creating an Arab confederation of many cantons that would eventually find it in their best interest to follow the best practices imported from Dubai or Qatar.

Soil erosion, crusades, colonialism (going as far back as the Turks), the "Dutch disease" (negative consequences of natural resources export), and high birth-rates all explain the fall of the Arabic peoples over the past ~500 years, before which they were at the forefront of world-class science, technology, culture, and trade.  They tend to have a very good work and family ethic, and there's absolutely no rational reason to believe that region can't be successful in the coming century.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  If Gaza was granted statehood.

// ]]>

Page created in 0.021 seconds with 32 queries.