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Author Topic: If borders don't exist...  (Read 10983 times)

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BonerJoe

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If borders don't exist...
« on: September 16, 2010, 02:41:33 PM »

...then why do you think private property lines do?
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Pizzly

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 03:03:06 PM »

Arbitrary Nationalistic Boundries Surrounding the Land Claimed by an Illegitimate State doens't sound as catchy as "No Borders!" or "Borders are Imaginary!"
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Peace isn't loving your neighbor, peace is simply not killing them.

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 03:22:48 PM »

...then why do you think private property lines do?

Private property, something that was earned, paid for, or mixed with labor, has a tangible association with an actual person or group of people who did such things.

State borders are lines people with guns drew so they can assert their violence, with no such tangible association to actual individuals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1OZCHixR0&hd=1

Further, that real property is necessary for the survival and thriving or mankind, whereas the borders of states are necessary for war--the health of the state.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 03:25:02 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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BonerJoe

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 03:30:41 PM »

So, border enforcement is OK as long as it's private property. I think the majority of the land across the border is privately owned, or would become such in a free society. It's OK to shoot he Mexicans then, right?
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Pizzly

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 03:35:03 PM »

So, border enforcement is OK as long as it's private property. I think the majority of the land across the border is privately owned, or would become such in a free society. It's OK to shoot he Mexicans then, right?

It's fine if a group of individuals along a line with to make an agreement to exclude individuals from a neighboring geographic area. That's one of those dirty tricks libertarians use though, similar to "it's okay if you fund the war yourself." We secretly are against it, but we make no real vocal opposition since we know it will never happen.
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Peace isn't loving your neighbor, peace is simply not killing them.

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 03:40:28 PM »

So, border enforcement is OK as long as it's private property. I think the majority of the land across the border is privately owned, or would become such in a free society. It's OK to shoot he Mexicans then, right?

Border enforcement on private property seems fine.  The part about shooting the Mexicans would probably not be, unless the Mexicans, on an individual basis, could be shown to have presented a credible mortal threat.  The concept of excessive force would seemingly be valued in a free society, probably more so than today (since today, it should be applied to "the state" and doesn't seem to be very often.)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 04:15:51 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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BonerJoe

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 03:44:15 PM »

"a credible mortal threat"

Disease.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 03:58:45 PM »

"a credible mortal threat"

Disease.

Okay...also immediate + not "made up."  (People fly into and out of the country all the time, and the paranoia about disease doesn't seem to be applied there.)  We're talking about the affirmative defense standard for killing people...

The more interesting question seems to be about easements.  It seems border control wouldn't be practicable in a stateless society because easements, which were originally roads along property lines, have been considered passable by all.  Your legitimate desire to keep someone off your property and your neighbor's legitimate desire to keep someone off your his property could not, seemingly, be coalesced into a desire to keep them out of an imaginary region by keeping them off the boundary between your properties, where they would presumably have a natural right to travel.


Reposted with salient added comment.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 04:05:44 PM by What's the frequency, Kenneth? »
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BonerJoe

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 04:01:12 PM »

So, I have a fence beyond an easement line, and signs in English stating they will be shot dead if they cross the property line, then it's OK?
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 04:04:12 PM »

So, I have a fence beyond an easement line, and signs in English stating they will be shot dead if they cross the property line, then it's OK?

No.  Death is not the penalty for trespassing (I'm sure the military thinks differently, but is that surprising?)  Consider disparity of force.
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Pizzly

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 04:07:22 PM »

"a credible mortal threat"

Disease.

Aren't most properties along the border large farms and ranches? I would understand if you felt compelled to murder someone if they walked through your living room, but it's hard to understand the justification when they are far off on the outskirts of your land.
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Peace isn't loving your neighbor, peace is simply not killing them.

BonerJoe

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 04:09:37 PM »

So, I have a fence beyond an easement line, and signs in English stating they will be shot dead if they cross the property line, then it's OK?

No.  Death is not the penalty for trespassing (I'm sure the military thinks differently, but is that surprising?)  Consider disparity of force.

If I declare it's the penalty, then it's the penalty.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 04:11:11 PM »

So, I have a fence beyond an easement line, and signs in English stating they will be shot dead if they cross the property line, then it's OK?

No.  Death is not the penalty for trespassing (I'm sure the military thinks differently, but is that surprising?)  Consider disparity of force.

If I declare it's the penalty, then it's the penalty.

And the penalty to you is getting written up for murder, and all the people who agree it's murder treating you like a murderer, and like minded people turning the other way when you protest because that doesn't seem so equitable to you.

Again, it's the disparity of force thing.  Your "rules" don't take away right to life--they have to do with your right to force them off your property.  If that becomes dangerous and ends in bloodshed, it's gonna be more interesting.
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BonerJoe

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 04:14:08 PM »

If you don't have the freedom to make your own clearly displayed rules, then you're not free.
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Pizzly

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Re: If borders don't exist...
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 04:14:44 PM »

If I declare it's the penalty, then it's the penalty.

Wouldn't this just make those individuals choose another course of action? So instead of possibly negotiating for a decrease in the flow of immigrants, by offering allotted border crossings, you lose your control of the situation to another individual with border land who may not have a concern.
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Peace isn't loving your neighbor, peace is simply not killing them.
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