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Author Topic: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH  (Read 3391 times)

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Libertarianssuck

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Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« on: September 25, 2009, 12:54:23 PM »

(Sept. 24) - A controversial New Hampshire law that charges those
who get lost for the cost of their rescue is facing renewed scrutiny.
Back in April, a 17-year-old Eagle Scout named Scott Mason went
hiking on New Hampshire's Mount Washington. After straying from
a path, Mason failed to return to his campsite at sunset, so Mason's
parents alerted authorities, USA Today reports. A massive search
ensued, in which state officials utilized helicopters, and sent out search
teams to canvass the mountain for three straight days, the paper said.
Mason survived his time in the frigid terrain by building a rock shelter and
using hand sanitizer to help start a fire. By the time rescuers spotted him,
the state said it had run up quite a tab.

As Dennis Abbott, the state representative who sponsored the original
bill that charges citizens for the cost of rescues, told USA Today, '"People
(who) make poor judgments at some point in time have to be responsible
for their actions. You don't rent helicopters for nothing." But the law itself,
which has been in effect since June of 2008 hasn't exactly replenished state
coffers. Since its inception, only 13 hikers other than Mason have been asked
to pay, the newspaper reports. The average charge? A mere $203 per person.
Mason and his lawyer are currently in negotiation with the state attorney general's
office regarding the $25,000 fee.










http://news.aol.com/article/eagle-scout-billed-25000-by-new/685956?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Feagle-scout-billed-25000-by-new%2F685956
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 03:50:45 PM »

End all government-funded search and rescue. Individuals who actually care can - and do - provide time and resources for searches. Eventually someone would offer "high adventure insurance" to take care of these types of things.
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 03:53:36 PM »

No argument there. Still for 25k I'd rather them not search for me and let me try to survive and find my own way out. Oh wait he didn't have a choice in the matter.
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davann

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 04:35:41 PM »

Really seems like a case of double billing. The boy's parents already paid for these services through taxation. They or anyone else caught in this type of scam should sue.

It is not the public's fault these agencies purchased to many toys they employ for search and rescue. And this is what this comes down to. During the boom government agencies budgets exploded and now they have come up with creative ways to keep it all going.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 04:54:59 PM »

No argument there. Still for 25k I'd rather them not search for me and let me try to survive and find my own way out. Oh wait he didn't have a choice in the matter.
This

Really seems like a case of double billing. The boy's parents already paid for these services through taxation. They or anyone else caught in this type of scam should sue.

It is not the public's fault these agencies purchased to many toys they employ for search and rescue. And this is what this comes down to. During the boom government agencies budgets exploded and now they have come up with creative ways to keep it all going.
And This.


Oh yeah, and this kind of reminds me of the beginning of Job: A Comedy of Justice by Robert Heinlein.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 05:00:45 PM by Admiral Naismith »
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Manuel_OKelly

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2009, 08:20:53 AM »

Tragedy of the commons? I was listening to NPR today. They were talking about how our, "National parks were the first experiment in conservation. The beauty was to be held in common and shared!" Well I guess they created death traps. Might as well put out a sign that says, "15$ park fee does not include 25,000$ rescue cost.

Heres a private solution, instead of passing the buck because you can use force, why don't they setup automated radio towers with shelters, you get lost you find one of the shelters doting the landscape and you hit the button, it sends a signal like you've probably heard in a target "Customer in need of assistance at grid 40" A single emergency team can then radio back and see what's needed.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 08:25:53 AM by Manuel_OKelly »
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Zhwazi

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 09:58:01 AM »

End all government-funded search and rescue. Individuals who actually care can - and do - provide time and resources for searches. Eventually someone would offer "high adventure insurance" to take care of these types of things.
Insurance? Seriously?

Why do libertarians love insurance so much? Fuck insurance, bill it as it happens! Anything else is "It'll be just like today except it won't be the government" and encourage this kind of irresponsibility, which is a sad excuse for anarchy.

As for the $25k charge, it sucks that the money is going to the state but at least people are feeling the consequences of their actions.
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mikehz

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 10:10:10 AM »

Why is the state even involved with this? There are already private voluntarist organizations set up for this sort of thing.

From the National Association for Search and Rescue website:

Quote
Mission Statement

The National Association for Search and Rescue, Inc., (NASAR) is a not-for-profit membership association dedicated to advancing professional, literary, and scientific knowledge in fields related to search and rescue. NASAR is comprised of thousands of paid and non-paid professionals interested in all aspects of search and rescue - the humanitarian cause of saving lives - throughout the United States and around the world. "...that others may live."


http://www.nasar.org/nasar/
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2009, 12:01:51 AM »

Insurance? Seriously?

Why do libertarians love insurance so much? Fuck insurance, bill it as it happens! Anything else is "It'll be just like today except it won't be the government" and encourage this kind of irresponsibility, which is a sad excuse for anarchy.

As for the $25k charge, it sucks that the money is going to the state but at least people are feeling the consequences of their actions.

Because aside from the government and the monopolies they create, nobody else gets to provide a service that was not solicited, then charge for it. I suppose some good "rescue service" might find you stranded on a mountainside with a broken leg and offer to rescue you for a charge. Then, if you did not agree, they would leave you their brochure containing their phone number, printed on a simple waterproof map, and give you a bottle of water and a cookie.

I suppose there could also be not-for-profit, charitable rescue societies that would put you on their mailing list forever if they rescued you and ask to help them with fundraisers.
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One two three

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 12:10:40 AM »

We already talked about this here.  Also, the guy wasn't an idiot.
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Zhwazi

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2009, 04:36:03 AM »

Insurance? Seriously?

Why do libertarians love insurance so much? Fuck insurance, bill it as it happens! Anything else is "It'll be just like today except it won't be the government" and encourage this kind of irresponsibility, which is a sad excuse for anarchy.
Because aside from the government and the monopolies they create, nobody else gets to provide a service that was not solicited, then charge for it.
How's that relevant?
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Andy

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2009, 07:24:35 AM »

Quote
Why do libertarians love insurance so much? Fuck insurance, bill it as it happens!

Insurance is overused but I think it does have a legitimate place.

Insurance against fire, natural disasters, 3rd party auto insurance, catastrophic illness in the young.

I agree you could do without it, but personally I wouldn't if they could be had without all the junk attached and at a price that reflected that.

Zhwazi

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2009, 07:58:39 AM »

Quote
Why do libertarians love insurance so much? Fuck insurance, bill it as it happens!

Insurance is overused but I think it does have a legitimate place.

Insurance against fire, natural disasters, 3rd party auto insurance, catastrophic illness in the young.

I agree you could do without it, but personally I wouldn't if they could be had without all the junk attached and at a price that reflected that.
Insurance is replacing direct economic information with the "best guess" of some policymaker. It reduces ability to accurately make economic calculations and at least for that reason should be deferred whenever possible. This best guess also carries an overhead because somebody's making money off you that if you paid for things out of pocket you'd be able to save that money, and if you can't pay for it out of pocket, it's possible that you just can't afford insurance and would pay out of pocket anyways, or that you're in the central class that can't afford to pay out of pocket but can afford insurance who are kept in that state in part by insurance rates and would be better off without it. The only way insurance makes sense is if you plan to defraud the insurance company, to use the economic distortion of insurance to your benefit. Otherwise you're better off without the distortion and without the overhead.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2009, 08:18:17 AM »

Insurance is nothing more than organized gambling.  Is there a problem with that?  I don't think so.
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"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Idiot gets lost and receives $25k rescue bill from NH
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2009, 12:01:08 PM »

Insurance? Seriously?

Why do libertarians love insurance so much? Fuck insurance, bill it as it happens! Anything else is "It'll be just like today except it won't be the government" and encourage this kind of irresponsibility, which is a sad excuse for anarchy.
Because aside from the government and the monopolies they create, nobody else gets to provide a service that was not solicited, then charge for it.
How's that relevant?

It is relevant because in common law based transactions you don't get to provide a "service" that wasn't requested then arbitrarily set the prices. Only if you can compel payment are you able to get away with such behavior. Since the discussion is about receiving a $25k rescue bill, we might examine ways in which people who are free to negotiate might deal with the problem of getting rescues to those in need and setting a 'fair' price.

On another note, rescue insurance already exists. Here is one example: http://www.americanalpineclub.org/globalrescue

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