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Author Topic: I'm not a porcupine anymore  (Read 60940 times)

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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #255 on: July 15, 2009, 02:24:34 PM »

It's the influx of liberal people running away from other New England states that does it for me.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #256 on: July 15, 2009, 03:31:32 PM »

Everything you've been saying suggests that you believe the situation to be hopeless.  You have stated that the best we can do is either slow down the march of the government juggernaut or run away and hide somewhere.  

No.

Not thinking 200 years of state growth can be turned around with 0.05% of a population and a bunch of wishful thinking DOES NOT EQUAL being hopeless.

I think its quite possible that there will be some form of viable libertarian seastead mini-society within the next 20 years. How exactly is this hopeless?

Quote
You can continue to point out the loss of freedoms and think that is evidence of our failure or you can realize that the government is simply painting itself into a corner and creating the conditions for its own downfall.  They are destroying the economy.  The government is nearly bankrupt, we are fighting wars the majority oppose, they are increasing taxes, they are passing more and more laws.  The government is simply setting the stage for our success. 

Yeah, the fact you're losing more liberties every year is a sure sign that you're winning. :roll:

This is exactly the unrealistic attitude I have talked about FSPers having. Even the failures are a sign of success. Confirmation bias in the extreme.

You could have said this at any time in the last 50 years. That the government getting bigger just means its closer to collapse, and that people will start hating it and it will backlash into freedom. Except it never happens.

Yes empires do fall, but if thats your entire argument, theres absolutely no reason for me to move to NH while its getting less free, why don't I just sit back, wait for the government to collapse, then move when its libertopia?

and seriously what the fuck is all this "running away and hiding" stuff? Can FSPers have any discussion without accusing other people of being lazy cowards?

I don't live in America. Its equally arduous for me to move to America as it would be to move to Switzerland. How is going to Switzerland running away but America not?

Who the fuck wouldn't want to run away from the UK?


For me, taxes and personal freedoms are a big deal. So Switzerland ranks slightly above anywhere in America. I feel that the legal prostitution, euthanasia, no minimum wage and very tolerant drug policy (including a pretty much legal cannabis market in many parts of Switzerland), and the extremely low taxes (particularly for high earners) outweigh the fact there is stronger gun regulation, mandatory military training (with opt out), compulsory health insurance, and a bunch of other unlibertarian shit.

I don't hold anything against someone who finds Switzerland unappealing. I hold no loyalty to the place, and if you have a "main issue" that Switzerland doesn't cater to, I would highly discourage you from moving .

What I do have a problem with is people telling me I'm a coward or wasting my time for wanting to move a place where I can have the freedoms I want, and other libertarians lying about the opportunities available and what to expect from things like the FSP
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #257 on: July 15, 2009, 04:00:05 PM »

We are gaining experience.  We are gaining new recruits.  They are not.  

Actually, the birth rate and immigration rate of non libertarians to NH is far greater than the immigration and birth rate of libertarians within NH, so you're not actually gaining shit.

FSPers in NH currently make up less than 0.05% of the NH population, and 0.0002% of the national population. On average 37 people a year have moved to NH per year since the FSP started. Now obviously people weren't being told to move, but its the only numbers we have, don't worry, I'll be more than generous later*

300 people didn't show up who signed the first 1000, and i think around 300-400 where already living in New Hampshire, so in actuality only 300 people have actually moved to New Hampshire as part of the FSP. If the First 1000 movement had 30% not show up, its unlikely the Next 5000 will have better results.

The NH population has increased by 100,000 since 2000, roughly 12,500 per year. 0.3% of these signed up for the FSP, and I'll be generous and say another 1% of these are libertarians aswell. This still means 98.7% of new immigrants/births are not libertarians.

In other words for every 37 people who move to New Hampshire as part of the FSP, 12,474 will move who aren't, and the vast majority of those aren't libertarians, and will never be libertarians.

* = Now you might say, well the FSP is only just starting, the growth is going to keep increasing. Even if the rate of movers increased by 10 times, the majority of people moving to NH will still be non Libertarians. Hell, I'll be even more generous, lets assume every 1 FSP members is worth 10 state supporters because they are SO good at getting shit done.

Even then, value adjusted FSP members would only make up 30% of population increases.

But hey, why let a thing like facts stop you making up shit to make the FSP sound good.
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #258 on: July 15, 2009, 04:08:18 PM »

300 people didn't show up who signed the first 1000, and i think around 300-400 where already living in New Hampshire, so in actuality only 300 people have actually moved to New Hampshire as part of the FSP. If the First 1000 movement had 30% not show up, its unlikely the Next 5000 will have better results.
You shouldn't mix the first 1000 and the FSP numbers. The first 1000 had no requirement to join the FSP.

There were 255 FSP members in state when NH was chosen.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #259 on: July 15, 2009, 04:14:50 PM »

300 people didn't show up who signed the first 1000, and i think around 300-400 where already living in New Hampshire, so in actuality only 300 people have actually moved to New Hampshire as part of the FSP. If the First 1000 movement had 30% not show up, its unlikely the Next 5000 will have better results.
You shouldn't mix the first 1000 and the FSP numbers. The first 1000 had no requirement to join the FSP.

There were 255 FSP members in state when NH was chosen.


Well I admit that the numbers are on the rough side, FSP don't really keep clear historic records (to my knowledge).

I just used the "720 already in new hampshire" on the FSP site, plus what I remembered from the start of the First 1000, i thought it was around 300 people already in New Hampshire when the First 1000 started.

Is there a alternative source the FSP site for numbers on how many "First 1000" actually moved?

Anyway, as I went to lengths to prove, even if you multiply my numbers by 100, FSP members are getting smaller as a percentage of the population, so Evil Muppets point about "we're getting bigger, they're not" is still dud.
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #260 on: July 15, 2009, 04:30:38 PM »

Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #261 on: July 15, 2009, 04:40:48 PM »

Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Yes, so did Shaw.

Jason Sorens used his visit to NH to count as fulfilling his first 1000 requirement.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #262 on: July 15, 2009, 05:10:49 PM »

It's the influx of liberal people running away from other New England states that does it for me.

Theres no state that doesn't have an effective liberal population.  Things are too close to call these days, it seems like everything is 51/49 and it shifts back and forth like a pendulum.  People were so enraged with Boosh that they would've voted for PeeWee Herman, now it'll slide the other way in a greasy film of night-terror sweats with former liberals suddenly turned hardline.   
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #263 on: July 15, 2009, 11:54:25 PM »

Actually, things are getting better in Grafton. 
Like what?
What has been accomplished in Grafton in 5 years?
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Bill Brasky

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #264 on: July 16, 2009, 08:08:12 AM »

But hey, as long as y'all have your guns...  who cares if they control what kind of establishment you can operate. 
This is one of the trade-off deals for me. I couldn't care less about strip clubs and bars.

I seem to remember a heated discussion a few months ago, where we agreed to disagree about the importance of unregulated firearm ownership.  Your position was there should be absolutely no regulation regarding the various concerns; full auto, ballistics, and no documentation. 

You honestly believe a lack of firearm regulations and registry is more importanrt than the freedom to conduct business?  I feel the need to remind you, business is where you buy the guns.

You should be free to open a business of your choice, and operate within the guidelines.  If there were three licensed gun dealers in NH, you'd have a very different opinion.  But the point is not whether they sell tits and beer, guns, cars, or groceries, its that they require a license to operate, and can be denied.  However, if the applicant is in observance of the requirements, *poof*  you should be licensed.  It doesn't matter if every tom dick and harry opens a gun shop every ten feet.  The number of establishments is not the objective of licensure. 

Picking and choosing what's a concern based on your opinion of what they sell is not cool.  Consistancy is important.  Never once, despite my ambivolent feelings of firearms, have I held the opinion it doesn't matter if they're restricted from general ownership.  I've maintained a consistant opinion that you should present valid identification to purchase and/or distribute.  If there is an application process for ownership of more controversial designs, so be it.  Its not as if they're being denied to the population as a whole, they can be acquired by the common citizen.   
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libertylover

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #265 on: July 16, 2009, 09:00:40 AM »

Who the fuck wouldn't want to run away from the UK?[/b]
For me, taxes and personal freedoms are a big deal. So Switzerland ranks slightly above anywhere in America. I feel that the legal prostitution, euthanasia, no minimum wage and very tolerant drug policy (including a pretty much legal cannabis market in many parts of Switzerland), and the extremely low taxes (particularly for high earners) outweigh the fact there is stronger gun regulation, mandatory military training (with opt out), compulsory health insurance, and a bunch of other unlibertarian shit.

I don't hold anything against someone who finds Switzerland unappealing. I hold no loyalty to the place, and if you have a "main issue" that Switzerland doesn't cater to, I would highly discourage you from moving .

What I do have a problem with is people telling me I'm a coward or wasting my time for wanting to move a place where I can have the freedoms I want, and other libertarians lying about the opportunities available and what to expect from things like the FSP

I agree there are other states even in the USA which offer more of the freedoms I care about than what is available in NH.   But this isn't to say that NH isn't the right combination for some people.

I would think Switzerland would be difficult since they aren't part of the EU.  I heard they have some of the most restrictive immigration laws in Europe.   But if you are from the UK then the USA immigration restrictions would also be difficult.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #266 on: July 16, 2009, 10:02:16 AM »

I agree there are other states even in the USA which offer more of the freedoms I care about than what is available in NH.   But this isn't to say that NH isn't the right combination for some people.

Agreed.

I have no problem with people moving to NH if they want:

A) To be around other libertarians
B) Be in one of the freest states in USA
C) Work with other libertarians to try and keep the state free


I do have a problem is the constant misleading and holier-than-thou attitude alot of FSPers have.

I think the most realistic goal for the FSP is to slow the increase of the state, maybe push through a decrim weed bill, maybe stop seatbelt law going through.

Possibly in 50-70 years NH might be in a position to become totally free, if the Federal government has dissolved, but nothing happening today shows its likely for NH and America in general to get less free, and relying on "anything could happen in the future" is not a sensible attitude to base moving across the world on.

And saying that FSP is the only chance for true freedom, and moving anywhere else amounts to cowardly running away is a ridiculous statement to make.

Quote
I would think Switzerland would be difficult since they aren't part of the EU.  I heard they have some of the most restrictive immigration laws in Europe.   But if you are from the UK then the USA immigration restrictions would also be difficult.

Also true.

Switzerland not being part of the EU is a benefit and a burden in certain areas. Immigration in Switzerland is extremely tight, although if you own your own business its relatively simple. If you have a turnover of over I think £60,000, and you can afford to hire one swiss citizen (given that theres no minimum wage), then immigration is practically automatic from what I've had (though whether its as simple in reality remains to be seen).

The Canton of Zug has almost as many businesses as people for this very reason.

Also as far as comments about NH being special because it has such a big liberty movement, is a little myopic to suggest no other places in the world have libertarians working for freedom.

In fact the 3rd largest political party (Free democratic Party), got 15.8% of the vote (30 out of 200 seats) in the last election, the next biggest party getting 19%.

From the Wikipedia on Free Democratic Party of Switzerland
Quote
As a classical liberal party, the FDP's goal is to promote freedom and self-responsibility in the society and economy.

The party has the opinion that an open society and economic liberalism promoting economic competition guarantees more prosperity and social and economic stability than a redistributive state.

The party supports an easy tax code and low taxes along with tax competition among the cantons of Switzerland. It also supports a state without excessive bureaucracy and over-regulation which hampers economic progress. It also aims at lowering the budget deficits and the national debt by lowering government spending. It prefers tax cuts as an economic stimulus measure to subsidies.

Is this proof Switzerland is destined to become Libertopia? No, likely its going to become less free, much like most other places in the world. A Federal bill to completely legalize Cannabis was instigated via Switzerlands system of Direct Democracy, and only lost by 20 votes, so clearly there is potential for libertarian activism.

I expect that I would do as much to support liberty (given that I can't vote as an immigrant) whether I moved to America OR Switzerland.

The idea that NH is the only place in the world you can work with other libertarians to effect a change is blatantly false. And all the rhetoric about NH libbers "fighting for freedom" while everyone else is "running away" is highly insulting.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 10:08:37 AM by fatcat »
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Evil Muppet

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #267 on: July 16, 2009, 12:52:49 PM »



No.

Not thinking 200 years of state growth can be turned around with 0.05% of a population and a bunch of wishful thinking DOES NOT EQUAL being hopeless.

I think its quite possible that there will be some form of viable libertarian seastead mini-society within the next 20 years. How exactly is this hopeless?




New Hampshire is unrealistic but a sad parody of a horrible Kevin Costner movie is realistic?
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Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #268 on: July 16, 2009, 02:14:06 PM »



No.

Not thinking 200 years of state growth can be turned around with 0.05% of a population and a bunch of wishful thinking DOES NOT EQUAL being hopeless.

I think its quite possible that there will be some form of viable libertarian seastead mini-society within the next 20 years. How exactly is this hopeless?




New Hampshire is unrealistic but a sad parody of a horrible Kevin Costner movie is realistic?

Certainly there are obstacles the seasteading. I've never said its a sure thing, or the only opportunity on the table (as opposed to some FSPers).

However, you can buy a boat now, and be pretty much govern-less so long as you aren't dealing with nuclear materials, or shipping large amounts of drugs to a mainland.

All seasteading is is an extension of that idea. Be it linking a bunch of boats together, or a floating platform or a oil rig style stationary platform.

Given that the SI already has

The great hope for Seasteading is that its not a political issue. Its not a matter of taking down a government, or getting people to migrate, or getting people to vote, or a bunch of other hard to control factors. Its logistical.

Get money - build stuff.

But I'd say its significantly more likely that I could be in a seastead 20 years from now buying heroin and paying no tax than doing the same in New Hampshire.

I don't see how calling seasteading a "sad parody" of a "horrible movie" is an effective argument.

Might governments intervene with a seastead? Possibly. Is it a hell of a lot less likely than the US government intervening in New Hampshire? yup.
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #269 on: July 16, 2009, 02:23:11 PM »

Would be nice...

« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 03:25:06 PM by Hideaki »
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