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Author Topic: I'm not a porcupine anymore  (Read 60927 times)

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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #210 on: July 12, 2009, 09:49:13 PM »

And Zug is harsh on homeschooling.

Yup.

Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.

While Switzerland firearm restriction is a lot more than some US states, "severe restriction" is an overstatement in my opinion. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, and I believe the highest in europe.

The signing of the Schwengen treaty certainly is a bad sign, and gun regulation is likely to get worse.

Other things that are shit about Switzerland :

Mandatory Health Insurance
Compulsory military training (with some bullshit opt out)
Tough immigration
Probably some other shit I don't remember right now.


 Its by no means perfect, and its by no means much freer than anywhere else in the world. However if you take a broad spectrum approach to liberty Zug is definately a high ranker. There are countries with practically 0 tax, but they will fucking destroy your life over a few grams of cannabis.

If you have one issue that matters to you that much, then it makes sense to go to those places that are extremely free in one respect but not at all free in others.

You can find many places that outstrip Switzerland by a mile in very specific areas. However I don't think theres one area where Switzerland is particularly bad in, and its fairly strong across the board, economically and personally.

For me taxes are a big issue. In America you pay tripple in federal income tax or corporate tax as you would in Switzerland. In NH unless you have a house more expensive than $100,000 you will pay more in state tax than in Zug even if you make over $110,000 a year.

Switzerland also has no capital gains tax whereas in U.S it can be up to 35%.

Switzerland is far away.  It is difficult to move there and get a job.  It isn't an option for most of us and it is silly to suggest it.  

If you own your own business and can afford to employ 1 Swiss employee (bearing in mind theres no minimum wage) you can move to Switzerland pretty much immediately. In an age where starting an online business is trivially easy, its not really a difficult task. Or if you work for a big company that has offices in Switzerland (which many do for tax reasons) then you can ask for a transfer. You can also go down the whole sham marriage route. Certainly immigration is no work in the park, but "isn't an option" is just bunk.

I guess I'm not included in "most of us", because from what I've read its equally difficult to pass US immigration as it is to pass Swiss immigration.

My argument has never been that NH is a bad place for libertarians, if you're moving because NH is freer than where you are, and you want to be around more libertarians, then I think its a good decision, but LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES is grossly unrealistic expectation, and I think its misleading to tell other libertarians to expect it, with nothing more than wishful thinking and a handful of "What ifs?" to back it up.

I think it would be a victory for US libertarians if they even kept NH as free as it is now, and there are certainly freedoms that are not too difficult to achieve at the state level (decrimmed marijuana, possibly even legal prostitution with alot of work), but theres such a thing as setting your hopes too high. Getting thrown in jail for recording in a coutroom lobby and expecting the state to collapse is a massive waste of time.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 10:01:42 PM by fatcat »
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Bill Brasky

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #211 on: July 13, 2009, 05:52:11 PM »

Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.

Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?

I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect.  Some people do, and thats fine.  Guns are fun.  I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it.  So those restrictions don't really concern me.  Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy. 
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #212 on: July 13, 2009, 05:54:55 PM »

Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.

Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?

I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect.  Some people do, and thats fine.  Guns are fun.  I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it.  So those restrictions don't really concern me.  Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy. 

It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #213 on: July 13, 2009, 05:59:42 PM »

Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.

Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?

I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect.  Some people do, and thats fine.  Guns are fun.  I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it.  So those restrictions don't really concern me.  Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy. 

It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.

Yeah, I get that.  But guess what?

Theres no such place.

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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #214 on: July 13, 2009, 06:01:24 PM »

I don't like that Switzerland is land locked.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #215 on: July 13, 2009, 06:08:09 PM »

I don't like that Switzerland is land locked.

Probably why they've been Switzerland for a millennium. 

But yea, towing my yacht over the alps would suck. 
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Kevin Freeheart

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #216 on: July 13, 2009, 06:18:33 PM »

NH is the place to be. Why? fatcat won't bother you there. ;)
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Manuel_OKelly

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #217 on: July 13, 2009, 09:40:59 PM »

Its not like your missing much.

If living in New Hampshire coincides with your other plans, then I would recommend being engaged in the NH liberty movement, however the idea that NH is somehow some holy grail of freedom (liberty in our lifetimes LOL), or even some last bastion of American liberty is a joke, and entirely out of touch with the facts on the ground.

Its been nearly 10 years since foundation, and only 720 people have actually moved, hundreds who were already living in NH at the time. The deadline to get 20,000 sign ups by 2006 failed, the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.

The fact that only 300 or so libertarians in New Hampshire (0.02%) actually signed up for the FSP tells you all you need to know about the raging hard-on voluntaryists and their grandiose grand standing.

The whole idea was to get such a concentration of libertarians that they could actually make a meaningful change. Now NH libbers are still carrying the whole mantra that the FSP is OH SO IMPORTANT, when the whole dynamic has changed.

It failed, get over it.

Now there can still be an NH liberty movement, but the aims need to scale to the reality. You're looking at maybe 500 people a year (at the most optimistic), or even less, given that a large percentage of FSP sign ups are likely to be unfulfilled.

This is not Liberty in your lifetime, its a bunch of libertarians together, trying shit and not getting very far, just like there are all over the country, all over the world, so give up the fucking hero complex.

 The best you can hope for is to re-arrange the deckchairs (i.e. aim for weed decrim or some other fringe liberty), while the Fed goes to town on your liberties, or move country.

wait.....

THEY STOPPED THE SEATBELT BILL!!!!!!!

in short : ignore the faggots who are going to act like you're shitting on the world because you won't join their happy fun club.

In other words:

"I've given up, I want you to give up too to sooth my ego. Cause you know, it's logical and stuff. AND IT DOESN"T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY EMOTIONS!!!!"

Anyway, I am here in Colorado right now. I can tell you it is nice here. Can't say we have lot's of freedom, but since New Yorkers, Californians and even Texans are all moving here because they hate their home states I can imagine those other places are worse. I've only met one person from New Hampshire though. She said she was going back.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 09:44:25 PM by Manuel_OKelly »
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #218 on: July 13, 2009, 09:45:55 PM »

Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.

Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?

I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect.  Some people do, and thats fine.  Guns are fun.  I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it.  So those restrictions don't really concern me.  Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy. 

It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.

Yeah, I get that.  But guess what?

Theres no such place.



So I shouldn't pick a place which has the least restrictions as possible?
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Rebel

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #219 on: July 13, 2009, 10:14:42 PM »

Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.

Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?

I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect.  Some people do, and thats fine.  Guns are fun.  I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it.  So those restrictions don't really concern me.  Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy. 

It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.

Yeah, I get that.  But guess what?

Theres no such place.



So I shouldn't pick a place which has the least restrictions as possible?
NH is that place, bonehead.
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #220 on: July 13, 2009, 10:22:14 PM »

NH is that place, bonehead.

[youtube=425,350]1ytCEuuW2_A[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A
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John Shaw

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #221 on: July 13, 2009, 10:25:46 PM »

Bonerjoe needs to move up to the palatial estates here in gorgeous Belleville, Michigan, and join the ranks of the power elite.
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #222 on: July 13, 2009, 10:52:10 PM »

Bonerjoe needs to move up to the palatial estates here in gorgeous Belleville, Michigan, and join the ranks of the power elite.

Yeah, maybe.
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Terror Australis

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #223 on: July 14, 2009, 01:06:27 AM »

Mahatma Gandhi’s methods for converting an opponent

Conversion is the process by which an opponent comes around to embrace your objectives.

1 Refrain from violence and hostility.

2 Attempt to obtain your opponent’s trust through
...~ Truthfulness
...~ Openness about intentions
...~ Chivalry (kindness if the other side experiences an unrelated difficulty)
...~ Making behavior inoffensive without compromising the issue at hand

3 Refrain from humiliating an opponent.

4 Make visible sacrifices for one’s cause.
...Ideally, make the suffering of the aggrieved visible.

5 Carry on constructive work. Address parts of the problem you can address.
...Make improvements where you can. Participate in activities regarded by
...everyone as benefitting everyone.

6 Maintain contact with the opponent.
...This is absolutely necessary if conversion is to succeed.

7 Demonstrate trust in the opponent.

8 Develop empathy, good will and patience toward the opponent.


This is the best you can do from your end. External conditions may still prevent conversion.


Ghandi was one man.He brought down a government.That is all.....
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One two three

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #224 on: July 14, 2009, 01:09:56 AM »

This is the best you can do from your end. External conditions may still prevent conversion.

Ghandi was one man.He brought down a government.That is all.....

I was with you until these parts.
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