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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #165 on: July 07, 2009, 10:44:52 PM »

At least I'm not a virgin.


I'd hate to think of the person or thing that would sleep with you.... *shudders*



Hi.
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digitalfour

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #166 on: July 07, 2009, 11:47:00 PM »

you're just the loser who spends his time on this forum bitching about what some other loser you supposedly don't care about.
well, that and pumping out dazzlingly clever one liners like R U A VIRGIN? and UR POSTING TOO LONG!!

One insults one-liners when losing the war of wit.


The people who honestly believe they can get liberty in their lifetime are hopeful and stubborn.

And not necessarily wrong.

It just seems pointless cuz once they're backed into a corner its ... "what would you do for freedom" etc.

How is this an irrelevant question?


But I guess it depends what you mean by freedom. I don't plan on trying to change laws. I don't plan on informing the state of everything I do. They can't get mad about something if they don't know about it.

Personally, I don't just want freedom for myself, I want a free society. And I think step number one in the creation of such a society is the concentration of liberty activists. Do you disagree?
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #167 on: July 08, 2009, 12:23:02 AM »

Quote
And not necessarily wrong.

That remains to be seen if the project fails or not. Success doesnt seem very likely at all however.


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How is this an irrelevant question?

He's mentioned a couple of options that would offer more freedom already. It's just a question FSPers ask when they dont have anything else to retort when trying to validate the success of the FSP.


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Personally, I don't just want freedom for myself, I want a free society. And I think step number one in the creation of such a society is the concentration of liberty activists. Do you disagree?

Who would disagree? Ain't workin too well over the past 8 years though. Fake sign ups and not meeting any of the goals...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 12:25:45 AM by Hideaki »
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digitalfour

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #168 on: July 08, 2009, 01:51:17 AM »

The people who honestly believe they can get liberty in their lifetime are hopeful and stubborn.
And not necessarily wrong.
That remains to be seen if the project fails or not. Success doesnt seem very likely at all however.

So better to be "realistic" and enslaved by that mentality of failure than hopeful and set free?

It just seems pointless cuz once they're backed into a corner its ... "what would you do for freedom" etc.
How is this an irrelevant question?
He's mentioned a couple of options that would offer more freedom already.

Maybe it's selective reading, but I haven't seen anything about actually achieving society wide freedom. I don't just want personal freedom, I want the benefits that come with societal freedom.

I think a mass movement to another country also has the downside of the resident culture rejecting the immigrant population, on a scale much higher than with non-NHites moving to NH. Has this been considered?

It's just a question FSPers ask when they dont have anything else to retort when trying to validate the success of the FSP.

I don't necessarily care about the success of the FSP, I care about its relative success compared to competing movements. Is there another project that is doing better?

Personally, I don't just want freedom for myself, I want a free society. And I think step number one in the creation of such a society is the concentration of liberty activists. Do you disagree?
Who would disagree? Ain't workin too well over the past 8 years though. Fake sign ups and not meeting any of the goals...

What is working better though? It's better to be working on something that's not-succeeding/failing than run away to some "freer" country alone.
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #169 on: July 08, 2009, 02:06:11 AM »

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So better to be "realistic" and enslaved by that mentality of failure than hopeful and set free?

Hopeful and set free? or you mean hopeful and let down. Look around you and across the world. There is no getting away from government. Maybe we'll reach an enlightened age where greed and desire for control is non-existent but I hardly doubt it. Better to save your efforts and work towards something better.


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Maybe it's selective reading, but I haven't seen anything about actually achieving society wide freedom. I don't just want personal freedom, I want the benefits that come with societal freedom.

Why wouldnt we all want freedom for everyone? I dont see it happening though.

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I think a mass movement to another country also has the downside of the resident culture rejecting the immigrant population, on a scale much higher than with non-NHites moving to NH. Has this been considered?

It is certainly a possibility. But then again who knows what'll happen as the FSP grows. I'm sure the government knows how to deal with "riots" and such if they need to or spin w/e story they make it to be.


Quote
I don't necessarily care about the success of the FSP, I care about its relative success compared to competing movements. Is there another project that is doing better? What is working better though? It's better to be working on something that's not-succeeding/failing than run away to some "freer" country alone.

Who's running away? It's a search for freedom. Think of it as an adventure to homestead somewhere nice. Anyways my best bet would be seasteading or traveling abroad. It's not like leaving the country is all that horrible anyway.
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libertylover

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #170 on: July 08, 2009, 02:11:25 AM »

Zero consideration that there are silent movers who just don't want to be identified as FSP members.  Not all those who are politically in line philosophically are going to be jumping up and down and waving their hands.  And many see identifying yourself as a FSP member is kin to making yourself a target.
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #171 on: July 08, 2009, 02:21:51 AM »

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Zero consideration that there are silent movers who just don't want to be identified as FSP members.

Your totally right i'm sure you got a couple thousand silent movers there already....

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Not all those who are politically in line philosophically are going to be jumping up and down and waving their hands.  And many see identifying yourself as a FSP member is kin to making yourself a target.

I totally agree if you wanna get involved politically that even declaring ur an FSP member ruins ur credibility. So how many till you can persuade politics in the state? how far do you have to go? Are you gonna make up more then 50% of the citizens there cuz if they start to dislike changes what'll stop them from competing? (Think about the kids, what about elderly and retirement, what about health care, taxes are important for schools and roads, dont let those drug dealers/users go they'll just corrupt our neighborhood.) If you do make changes what will stop the feds from stepping in when they dont agree? You think medical marijuana raids didnt happen in california? Governments are corrupt through and through but honestly I really do wish the FSP good luck. I just really can't see it working out.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #172 on: July 08, 2009, 08:22:53 AM »

Zero consideration that there are silent movers who just don't want to be identified as FSP members.  Not all those who are politically in line philosophically are going to be jumping up and down and waving their hands.  And many see identifying yourself as a FSP member is kin to making yourself a target.

Could there be a bunch of "silent movers" going to FSP? sure.

Is there any reason to believe they are there? no. "we might not know if some people moved" is a desperate last resort to try and make the FSP look good.

Can you put a number on these "silent movers"? Can you tell if there is 1 silent mover, or 1000 silent movers? Then whats the point of bringing it up.

This is the same shit religionists use.

Can you prove that there isn't a race of super intelligent aliens surrounding the earth with space ships cloaked to any form of detection? Is not being able to prove it any reason to believe it?

When you're using the fact that you wouldn't be able to know if people moved, its extremely disingenuous territory. What next? Are you going to use the fact that taxes in NH are increasing as proof that NH citizens are getting tired of government intervention?

If there are "silent movers", what are they doing? Are they going to "social sundays"? Are they joining the NHLA? Are they turning up to protests? If they're doing anything but sitting in their houses doing nothing it should be pretty easy to measure their presence.

Or more likely its just a pathetic attempt to inflate the importance and progress of the FSP when the actual facts don't go your way.

This attitude is extremely pervasive attitude in the FSP to spin everything to the maximum, like with the First 1000. 300 people didn't show up by the deadline. but wait, they did show up, they just didn't tell anyone, or they're probably going to come in the next year or two.

The more likely possibility that A) they changed their minds, or B) they signed the pledge fraudulently isn't even mentioned. So instead of FSPers actually addressing how they missed their goal by 30%, and what they could do to do better in future, they just engage in a blowjob fest about how good the FSP is.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 08:25:52 AM by fatcat »
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #173 on: July 08, 2009, 08:57:13 AM »

"we might not know if some people moved" is a desperate last resort to try and make the FSP look good.

Indeed.
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digitalfour

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #174 on: July 08, 2009, 06:32:24 PM »

So better to be "realistic" and enslaved by that mentality of failure than hopeful and set free?
Hopeful and set free? or you mean hopeful and let down.

So be it. Better to think something can happen than not and thus directly lead to it not happening.

Look around you and across the world. There is no getting away from government.

Government is a pattern of ideas, and it like any pattern of ideas can be thrown out. Your negativity manifests itself.

Bottom line is, you don't know that we can't get rid of government.

Maybe we'll reach an enlightened age where greed and desire for control is non-existent but I hardly doubt it. Better to save your efforts and work towards something better.

This statement is contradictory. What should we be working toward if not societal freedom?

Maybe it's selective reading, but I haven't seen anything about actually achieving society wide freedom. I don't just want personal freedom, I want the benefits that come with societal freedom.
Why wouldnt we all want freedom for everyone?

I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.

I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.

I dont see it happening though.

Why?

Who's running away?

People that care more about individual personal freedom than the chance of societal freedom. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they have different goals. That's OK, but to argue that anyone that has a goal of complete liberty is doing something wrong by moving to NH is stupid if you can't say what has a better shot.

It's a search for freedom.

Does no good if you can't get other people to help you expand the freedom.

Think of it as an adventure to homestead somewhere nice.

I don't just want somewhere nice, I want to achieve liberty.

Anyways my best bet would be seasteading or traveling abroad. It's not like leaving the country is all that horrible anyway.

I like the idea of seasteading, but the costs are incredible.
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #175 on: July 08, 2009, 06:49:43 PM »

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So be it. Better to think something can happen than not and thus directly lead to it not happening.

I'm not saying to give up but have some realistic hopes and dont mislead others. Freedom certainly isnt coming in your lifetime. You can create a community and hope to keep your kids from getting indoctrinated into the system and expand from there.

Quote
Government is a pattern of ideas, and it like any pattern of ideas can be thrown out. Your negativity manifests itself.
Bottom line is, you don't know that we can't get rid of government.

My negativity manifests itself with reality. C'mon now look into history. Since when have we not had some organization or government reigning control over it's peons?

Quote
This statement is contradictory. What should we be working toward if not societal freedom?

How's it contradictory. Better to save your efforts and work for something better then NH is what I meant.

Quote
I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.

They are being realistic about the situation. Do you honestly believe your efforts wont go to waste? You saw what happened to Sam. Did it have much effect at all? What about all the police brutality and wrongful doings you hear in the news and media? Does anything really happen to them? Some paid leave and a vacation... I honestly only see you all fighting for a lost cause despite it being a noble and just cause. More laws are passed on the federal level and state level despite the FSP. Maybe you hindered a seatbelt law big woop.

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I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.

Tellin yea look into seasteading or another country.

Quote
People that care more about individual personal freedom than the chance of societal freedom. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they have different goals. That's OK, but to argue that anyone that has a goal of complete liberty is doing something wrong by moving to NH is stupid if you can't say what has a better shot.

No one is doing anything wrong. By all means pursue liberty as best you can but the FSP isn't doing jack shit.

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Does no good if you can't get other people to help you expand the freedom.

Does if there are more freedoms in that area and others willing to pursue it there.

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I don't just want somewhere nice, I want to achieve liberty.

Someplace nice that has more liberties? Um jeez no brainer there.

Quote
I like the idea of seasteading, but the costs are incredible.

There are other ppl investing and they are looking into detachable "house boats" if you will. There is much progress to be made still but much more potential in our lifetime then the FSP.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 06:52:46 PM by Hideaki »
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #176 on: July 08, 2009, 07:43:28 PM »

I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.

I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.

How exactly is the FSP "working"? Is NH getting freer? No, not even when you exclude increases in Federal government.

Firstly, I've never said people shouldn't move to NH as part of the FSP. My primary concern with the FSP is members lying to libertarians about the FSP and what the alternatives are.

Also, I'd like to know how exactly Zug is "unfeasible". I have never once suggested that there should be a political migration programme for Zug.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that New Hampshire is going to be freer in 5 years than it is now. I would have to be a fucking idiot to want to move somewhere I would spend the next 5 years of my life paying more in taxes for some altruistic goal of creating some libertarian holy land.

If other libertarians want to move to Zug to enjoy the freedoms available fine, but I really don't care about donning some hero ego and trying to save the world. All the data shows that if I move to NH now, i will be less free 5 years from now than when I stepped off the plane.

Now the same goes for Zug, but I'll be much freer than I would be otherwise, and as a libertarian, I kind of care about living somewhere I will be stolen from less, and not put in a jail cell for paying a hooker or using cannabis. However, what I'm not doing, is telling everyone to move to Zug so we can have "LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES".

Zug is not getting freer, neither is New Hampshire, and both of those are highly unlikely to change in the next 10 years.

If anyone thinks my position is bullshit, please feel free to make money off that fact, as I'll happily bet money that New Hampshire will be less free in 5 years than it is now, and that Zug will be freer than New Hampshire in 5 years.

Even assuming New Hampshire was getting freer, why would I move to a country (America) to be less free than I would be in Switzerland. When NH becomes freer than Zug, please let me know and I'll be happy to move, but I'm not going to move somewhere I can be less free, just on some deluded dream of 0.05% of the population bringing down an entire government.

Saying all this, you aren't even paying attention to what my point is.

I'm not saying NH is a bad choice for libertarians to move (although i don't believe its the best),what i am saying is that misleading libertarians that "NEW HAMPSHIRE IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE OPTION" and "EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME" is wrong, and not based on fact.

There is absolutely nothing to back this up besides wishful thinking and self delusion.

How many times are you fuckers going to reply to any criticism with "OH YEAH!?!? WELL WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT FREEDOM!?!"

Its really not the ego shattering puzzle you think it is. To address your original point. What I'm going to do for freedom:

Short Term : Move to Zug, Switzerland.
Long Term : Move to a Seastead

If you're moving to NH because its one of the freest US states, and to be around other libertarians, great. If you're going to try and play hero and start libertopia, you're wasting your time, and you're a dick for looking down on people who don't want to join in your happy fun club.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 07:46:44 PM by fatcat »
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Rebel

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digitalfour

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #178 on: July 08, 2009, 10:03:07 PM »

So be it. Better to think something can happen than not and thus directly lead to it not happening.
I'm not saying to give up but have some realistic hopes and dont mislead others.

I'm against misleading others, but that includes misleading them that NH can't work.

Freedom certainly isnt coming in your lifetime.

The future is unknowable. Especially these days.

You can create a community and hope to keep your kids from getting indoctrinated into the system and expand from there.

I think concentration is important, but segregation decreases the impact liberty activists can have on their non-libertarian friends.

Government is a pattern of ideas, and it like any pattern of ideas can be thrown out. Your negativity manifests itself.
Bottom line is, you don't know that we can't get rid of government.
My negativity manifests itself with reality. C'mon now look into history. Since when have we not had some organization or government reigning control over it's peons?

There have been times, but I think it is irrelevant one way or the other. History doesn't reveal the impact the internet and technology can have on the geopolitical systems of today.

This statement is contradictory. What should we be working toward if not societal freedom?
How's it contradictory. Better to save your efforts and work for something better then NH is what I meant.

So what has a better shot of societal freedom than NH and the FSP?

I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.
They are being realistic about the situation. Do you honestly believe your efforts wont go to waste?

No effort to create more libertarians is a waste in my book.

I don't see how it is realistic to abandon all hope in societal liberty. Even if there is only a 0.001% chance of complete freedom, I think it is better to try than to run off to some foreign country. Maybe it's a waste, but what if it works?

I honestly only see you all fighting for a lost cause despite it being a noble and just cause.

Is there a less lost cause that aims for freedom? I don't know of it.

I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.
Tellin yea look into seasteading or another country.

Which one has 9000+ signers?

Even if most signers are fake, still shows support the seasteading doesn't have.

As far as another country goes, blackie's arguments of the costs to move longer distances can be used against fatcat's arguments for Zug.

By all means pursue liberty as best you can but the FSP isn't doing jack shit.

Besides being the best concentrator of liberty activists in the entire world? Or am I wrong in saying that?

Does no good if you can't get other people to help you expand the freedom.
Does if there are more freedoms in that area and others willing to pursue it there.

Where are all these people that want to help Zug?

I don't just want somewhere nice, I want to achieve liberty.
Someplace nice that has more liberties? Um jeez no brainer there.

Maybe it has more liberties now, but what is the chance of increasing the liberties if you can't expand the base of liberty activists there?

I like the idea of seasteading, but the costs are incredible.
There are other ppl investing and they are looking into detachable "house boats" if you will. There is much progress to be made still but much more potential in our lifetime then the FSP.

That may be true, and it may be the solution to our problems, but so far, what has it achieved compared to the concentration of liberty activists in NH?


How exactly is the FSP "working"? Is NH getting freer? No, not even when you exclude increases in Federal government.

It's concentrating libertarians, which I think is step number one to political and social change.

My primary concern with the FSP is members lying to libertarians about the FSP and what the alternatives are.

If the goal is societal liberty, what are the alternatives?

Also, I'd like to know how exactly Zug is "unfeasible". I have never once suggested that there should be a political migration programme for Zug.

What is the point of promoting Zug if you are not promoting people move there?

Zug is unfeasible because it is another country, which I think basically means you cannot cause political change. Even if you can successfully pay to get there, and become a citizen, you will always be viewed as a foreigner and thus cannot have the same impact as against Americans. Am I just way off base on this? Can you even be elected? Does Zug really have a better chance of complete liberty than NH?

After reading more carefully over the rest of your post I understand you don't care about complete liberty, you just want greater short term liberty.

Now the same goes for Zug, but I'll be much freer than I would be otherwise, and as a libertarian, I kind of care about living somewhere I will be stolen from less, and not put in a jail cell for paying a hooker or using cannabis. However, what I'm not doing, is telling everyone to move to Zug so we can have "LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES".

Well I'm a libertarian too, and I kind of care about living somewhere that has a chance of becoming libertopia. You can say all you want about no evidence to suggest NH becoming it, but I know of no other place that even has a chance. Perhaps seasteading, but that doesn't exist yet so one can't move there.

Even assuming New Hampshire was getting freer, why would I move to a country (America) to be less free than I would be in Switzerland. When NH becomes freer than Zug, please let me know and I'll be happy to move, but I'm not going to move somewhere I can be less free, just on some deluded dream of 0.05% of the population bringing down an entire government.

Maybe it is deluded, but without another option it's irrelevant.

I'm not saying NH is a bad choice for libertarians to move (although i don't believe its the best),what i am saying is that misleading libertarians that "NEW HAMPSHIRE IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE OPTION" and "EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME" is wrong, and not based on fact.

Am I missing something? Where did you point out a better place to move if one wants societal freedom?

There is absolutely nothing to back this up besides wishful thinking and self delusion.

I started reading this thread halfway through, but Zug and seasteading seem like the only options presented so far. Neither of which can really be called better than NH IMO, because Zug is not a place for societal freedom and seasteading is less like a society and more like a community. I don't think you truly get the economic benefits of liberty when you are dealing with such a small group.

How many times are you fuckers going to reply to any criticism with "OH YEAH!?!? WELL WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT FREEDOM!?!"

How many times are you going to dodge this question:

fatcat what do you think is the best way to achieve freedom for a society?

Its really not the ego shattering puzzle you think it is. To address your original point. What I'm going to do for freedom:
Short Term : Move to Zug, Switzerland.
Long Term : Move to a Seastead

Neither of which achieve freedom for a society.

If you're going to try and play hero and start libertopia, you're wasting your time

What if it works?

you're a dick for looking down on people who don't want to join in your happy fun club.

I don't look down on people with different goals, but I do get pissed at people that don't understand the FSP's and then bash it as unsuccessful.
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #179 on: July 08, 2009, 10:13:45 PM »

What do you consider a society?
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