So be it. Better to think something can happen than not and thus directly lead to it not happening.
I'm not saying to give up but have some realistic hopes and dont mislead others.
I'm against misleading others, but that includes misleading them that NH can't work.
Freedom certainly isnt coming in your lifetime.
The future is unknowable. Especially these days.
You can create a community and hope to keep your kids from getting indoctrinated into the system and expand from there.
I think concentration is important, but segregation decreases the impact liberty activists can have on their non-libertarian friends.
Government is a pattern of ideas, and it like any pattern of ideas can be thrown out. Your negativity manifests itself.
Bottom line is, you don't know that we can't get rid of government.
My negativity manifests itself with reality. C'mon now look into history. Since when have we not had some organization or government reigning control over it's peons?
There have been times, but I think it is irrelevant one way or the other. History doesn't reveal the impact the internet and technology can have on the geopolitical systems of today.
This statement is contradictory. What should we be working toward if not societal freedom?
How's it contradictory. Better to save your efforts and work for something better then NH is what I meant.
So what has a better shot of societal freedom than NH and the FSP?
I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.
They are being realistic about the situation. Do you honestly believe your efforts wont go to waste?
No effort to create more libertarians is a waste in my book.
I don't see how it is realistic to abandon all hope in societal liberty. Even if there is only a 0.001% chance of complete freedom, I think it is better to try than to run off to some foreign country. Maybe it's a waste, but what if it works?
I honestly only see you all fighting for a lost cause despite it being a noble and just cause.
Is there a less lost cause that aims for freedom? I don't know of it.
I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.
Tellin yea look into seasteading or another country.
Which one has 9000+ signers?
Even if most signers are fake, still shows support the seasteading doesn't have.
As far as another country goes, blackie's arguments of the costs to move longer distances can be used against fatcat's arguments for Zug.
By all means pursue liberty as best you can but the FSP isn't doing jack shit.
Besides being the best concentrator of liberty activists in the entire world? Or am I wrong in saying that?
Does no good if you can't get other people to help you expand the freedom.
Does if there are more freedoms in that area and others willing to pursue it there.
Where are all these people that want to help Zug?
I don't just want somewhere nice, I want to achieve liberty.
Someplace nice that has more liberties? Um jeez no brainer there.
Maybe it has more liberties now, but what is the chance of increasing the liberties if you can't expand the base of liberty activists there?
I like the idea of seasteading, but the costs are incredible.
There are other ppl investing and they are looking into detachable "house boats" if you will. There is much progress to be made still but much more potential in our lifetime then the FSP.
That may be true, and it may be the solution to our problems, but so far, what has it achieved compared to the concentration of liberty activists in NH?
How exactly is the FSP "working"? Is NH getting freer? No, not even when you exclude increases in Federal government.
It's concentrating libertarians, which I think is step number one to political and social change.
My primary concern with the FSP is members lying to libertarians about the FSP and what the alternatives are.
If the goal is societal liberty, what are the alternatives?
Also, I'd like to know how exactly Zug is "unfeasible". I have never once suggested that there should be a political migration programme for Zug.
What is the point of promoting Zug if you are not promoting people move there?
Zug is unfeasible because it is another country, which I think basically means you cannot cause political change. Even if you can successfully pay to get there, and become a citizen, you will always be viewed as a foreigner and thus cannot have the same impact as against Americans. Am I just way off base on this? Can you even be elected? Does Zug really have a better chance of complete liberty than NH?
After reading more carefully over the rest of your post I understand you don't care about complete liberty, you just want greater short term liberty.
Now the same goes for Zug, but I'll be much freer than I would be otherwise, and as a libertarian, I kind of care about living somewhere I will be stolen from less, and not put in a jail cell for paying a hooker or using cannabis. However, what I'm not doing, is telling everyone to move to Zug so we can have "LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES".
Well I'm a libertarian too, and I kind of care about living somewhere that has a chance of becoming libertopia. You can say all you want about no evidence to suggest NH becoming it, but I know of no other place that even has a chance. Perhaps seasteading, but that doesn't exist yet so one can't move there.
Even assuming New Hampshire was getting freer, why would I move to a country (America) to be less free than I would be in Switzerland. When NH becomes freer than Zug, please let me know and I'll be happy to move, but I'm not going to move somewhere I can be less free, just on some deluded dream of 0.05% of the population bringing down an entire government.
Maybe it is deluded, but without another option it's irrelevant.
I'm not saying NH is a bad choice for libertarians to move (although i don't believe its the best),what i am saying is that misleading libertarians that "NEW HAMPSHIRE IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE OPTION" and "EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME" is wrong, and not based on fact.
Am I missing something? Where did you point out a better place to move
if one wants societal freedom?
There is absolutely nothing to back this up besides wishful thinking and self delusion.
I started reading this thread halfway through, but Zug and seasteading seem like the only options presented so far. Neither of which can really be called better than NH IMO, because Zug is not a place for societal freedom and seasteading is less like a society and more like a community. I don't think you truly get the economic benefits of liberty when you are dealing with such a small group.
How many times are you fuckers going to reply to any criticism with "OH YEAH!?!? WELL WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT FREEDOM!?!"
How many times are you going to dodge this question:
fatcat what do you think is the best way to achieve freedom for a society?
Its really not the ego shattering puzzle you think it is. To address your original point. What I'm going to do for freedom:
Short Term : Move to Zug, Switzerland.
Long Term : Move to a Seastead
Neither of which achieve freedom for a society.
If you're going to try and play hero and start libertopia, you're wasting your time
What if it works?
you're a dick for looking down on people who don't want to join in your happy fun club.
I don't look down on people with different goals, but I do get pissed at people that don't understand the FSP's and then bash it as unsuccessful.