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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #105 on: July 05, 2009, 07:18:48 AM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.

If you are going to do it in an English speaking country then a US state is the only way you can do it, especially is you are going to market it to US citizens. States are sovereign they control their municipalities.
I'm not so sure states are sovereign. Federal rules and laws still apply, and that is where many of the problems are.
Do you really think the feds wouldn't just step in?

States may not be be sovereign in reality today, but they are supposed to be, there is lots of law on the side of state sovereignty. So, I would like to see what would happen if one of them tried. I don't know what the Fed would do, but I would hope that they wouldn't just turn guns on peaceful people.

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If Grafton decides to free their citizens from taxes and shut down the government school program, the state will just come in and revoke their charter and incorporate them into Enfield.  
First, I think even Grafton is too big to try and "take over".

Grafton doesn't have any government schools, so no government school program would be shut down. At most, it would involve pulling out of the Mascoma Valley school district. But all you really need to do is convince everyone not to send their kids to the government school. The last time I checked, the way the local school tax was calculated was based on the number of students a town has attending public schools. I'm not sure about the state school tax.

You could also offer tax abatement to everyone that doesn't use the public school system. That would leave the people using the system to pay for it.

Is there precedence for the state of NH ever revoking the charter of a town that is hundreds of years old?

It is my understanding that Grafton is largely taken over. Porcupines are all in the govt there.

I figured they didn't have a high school, but wasn't sure what schools they may or may not have had, that is why I said program I figured that paying for the kids schooling was covered by the word program.

I have thought about the abatement idea, but I bet the town could be sued for it, and if someone has a "special ed" kid, everyone is screwed. I think people with kids would be best convinced by a more surreptitious pay off and that special ed parents just need to be given a big check to leave town.

I bet there isn't precedent, nor is there likely precedent for a town telling parents they ain't payin for schoolin no more.

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If you want to provide any real freedom from the political apparatus you need a state
So, what is your current estimate of how long it will take to get "real freedom" at the state level?

Also, to get any real freedom at the state level, you need to secede. GLWT.


Would you have asked Louis and Clark what their estimate was of how long it would take them to find the "West"? This is uncharted territory. I will tell you that I think in 5 years we will begin to see some onerous laws being repealed. I consider dismantling the nanny state a life's work and one well worth undertaking.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 07:37:45 AM by FTL_Mark »
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #106 on: July 05, 2009, 07:27:20 AM »

Colorado is as free if not more than NH, I've heard Mark and Ian say that NH has recently been named the freest state in the union.  True but what they don't say is it tied with Colorado.  

Open carry?  Check
Shall issue?  Check
Relatively low taxes?  Check
Several unincorporated municipalities?  Check
Pot legal in Denver?  Check
A libertarian streak that runs through CO the size of NH?  Check

Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.

We did say one time on the show that NH, Colorado, and South Dakota were a virtual tie. I don't know that I would move if I were in Colorado or SD. I think Florida got short shrift in the study, they have tourists pay most of their taxes. But what advice do you have for libertarians living in Mass., VT, NY, NJ, Conn., and RI?

If NH is just as free as Colorado, why is it retarded to move here for freedom? Is there any real practical difference between the amount of money and time it takes to move from Cali to NH than from Cali to Colorado?
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2009, 07:36:21 AM »

1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
You see a lot of activity because that is where you are, and the people you hang out with. The easiest place for a US citizen to get involved is where they are right now.
I see activity here because I am here AND there is activity to see. I was in Sarasota, Fla. (one of the lowest tax burdens in the US) and I saw crapola. I suspect that is what you see where you are and what most libertarians see where they are.
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2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
I have asked and haven't heard how NH is viable.

The plan seems to be "move to NH ASAP, and see what happens!".

Explain to me how you plan on getting liberty/freedom in NH.
NH is viable because people are working to change things here to shrink/dissolve the govt. I don't really hear of that happening too many other places and the ones I do, I don't see it on the scale that I see it here. You don't think 6 State House members shows viablity?

That is the plan. It is a decentralized project. I encourage you to attempt to rally libertarians to join your centrally planned project to take over some place :). That will go about as well as the Free Wyoming Project.
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slayerboy

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #108 on: July 05, 2009, 07:59:31 AM »

Colorado is as free if not more than NH, I've heard Mark and Ian say that NH has recently been named the freest state in the union.  True but what they don't say is it tied with Colorado.  

Open carry?  Check
Shall issue?  Check
Relatively low taxes?  Check
Several unincorporated municipalities?  Check
Pot legal in Denver?  Check
A libertarian streak that runs through CO the size of NH?  Check

Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.

We did say one time on the show that NH, Colorado, and South Dakota were a virtual tie. I don't know that I would move if I were in Colorado or SD. I think Florida got short shrift in the study, they have tourists pay most of their taxes. But what advice do you have for libertarians living in Mass., VT, NY, NJ, Conn., and RI?

If NH is just as free as Colorado, why is it retarded to move here for freedom? Is there any real practical difference between the amount of money and time it takes to move from Cali to NH than from Cali to Colorado?

This would be my main reason for moving to NH from NY.  Granted, CO  and SD have just as much freedom, but if I wanted to live in 50 acres by myself and no socialize with anyone, I'd just do that here in NY.  Yes, still want to live on acreage, but I like what I'm seeing from the community spirit in NH.  I'm just not thrilled about some of the actions of the free staters, especially the younger ones.  This may end up driving me away in the end, along with other people.

I guess it comes down to what you are looking to achieve in your fight for liberty.  Are you looking to stand up to the government, willing to go to jail if need be?  Then you better have a good bit of help behind you, NH is your place.  If you are just looking to get out of a socialist state into a less socialist state, then NH, CO, and SD are all good choices.  Just keep in mind, if you get in trouble, CO and SD probably don't have people as willing to help as NH would.

I'm still torn right now, but I have at least a couple of years before I really can decide anyways.  I'm slowly liking what I'm seeing in NH.  The whole Sam in jail episode kinda pushed me away a little bit.
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libertylover

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2009, 08:19:33 AM »

I will admit I haven't read every single comment in this thread.  But has anyone pointed out that there are possibly FSP movers who simply don't want to be identified.  They want to live in a freer state but aren't willing to have a target placed on them by being a FSP member.  How many silent movers do you think might have slipped into the state?  These people will donate and vote.  They might use subtle forms of influence feeling that the antics of some FSP members might actually do more harm than good. 

In any of my discussions about moving I have never been motivated to be a FSP member.  My family would move in quietly and I would most likely get involved in local politics but never identify myself as a FSP member.  We would increase the numbers of Libertarian leaning individuals in the state but we wouldn't be adding to the known number of FSP movers.  I might even drop being involved in the Libertarian party and become a secret Libertarian in one of the majority parties. 

I just wonder about such possibilities.  It seems likely to me that there are way more movers than have chosen to be identified as FSP members. 

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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #110 on: July 05, 2009, 10:56:48 AM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?

Costa Rica probably.
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John Shaw

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2009, 12:20:03 PM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?

Costa Rica probably.

No, those aren't activists, they're just all the Libertarians with money. :-P
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libertylover

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #112 on: July 05, 2009, 12:26:41 PM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
Costa Rica probably.

I thought that was just a retirement community for ex CIA and FBI agents. 
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #113 on: July 05, 2009, 12:42:46 PM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?

Costa Rica probably.

No, those aren't activists, they're just all the Libertarians with money. :-P

Well, I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
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digitalfour

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #114 on: July 05, 2009, 01:09:25 PM »

I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.

You don't think we need both?
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #115 on: July 05, 2009, 01:39:41 PM »

I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.

You don't think we need both?

No. A lot more would get accomplished with people spending money in the right places.
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digitalfour

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2009, 01:54:27 PM »

I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
You don't think we need both?
No. A lot more would get accomplished with people spending money in the right places.

How do we figure out where the right places are?
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Coconut

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2009, 04:27:15 PM »

Sam's not poor.

Neither am I, and they might put me in jail.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2009, 04:40:55 PM »

Very special, Mark. I'm here in the NH and won't go anywhere, so the rest are just foolin themselves. Fatcat, enjoy your life wherever you are, too bad you were never part of anything important. Though, I'm sure you have a heartily response or whatever...

yeah, FSP supporters don't have a bad attitude.

Rebel sums up the two worst points perfectly.

1. Anyone who isn't involved or planning to be involved in the NH liberty movement doesn't care about liberty and isn't going to do anything to help liberty.

2. Rejecting any alternate/opposing views on liberty regardless of what they are and what reasons are behind them, and not involving in any actual debate about the issues bar engaging in condescending ego driven bullshit.

As far as Marks comments go

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I certainly don't care what is wrong with the FSP organization, I just want people to sign-up so that I don't have think about the FSP anymore and we can get about the task of making a Freer State

So even though the whole point of the Free State Project is to get libertarians to NH to improve liberty, but you don't care how effective the FSP is at getting libertarians to NH?

Does not compute.

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I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH.

Are you disputing that Zug, Switzerland is more free than NH, USA?

How is it wasting my time to want to spend the next 5 years of my place in somewhere I can be free, rather than spending the next 5 years of my life somewhere that is less free, and probably will become less free during those 5 years. The Seat Belt bill being rejected is a ludicrous claim of success. It has been rejected many times before the FSP ever started, and as memory serves the recent vote for seatbelts came as close to succeeding as it has for a long time.

Zug has been getting freer for the past 10 years (taxes down, drug laws more liberal). Why is it a waste of time for a Libertarian to move somewhere they can have more liberty? If there were 20,000 people in North Korea starting a FSP would I be wasting my time by not joining there?

While I'm happy to accept that NH is a fine choice of habitat if you don't want to leave the US, apparently you and people like Rebel aren't happy to accept there are any other possibilities that aren't a "waste of time", no matter what the reality is, and are condescending pricks while your doing it.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 04:50:41 PM by fatcat »
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BonerJoe

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2009, 04:49:03 PM »

I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
You don't think we need both?
No. A lot more would get accomplished with people spending money in the right places.

How do we figure out where the right places are?

You ask too many questions.
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