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Rebel

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2009, 02:44:56 AM »

I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.

Maybe, we will see.

I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).

If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.
Sure, I understand there are personal reasons. I'm not criticizing anyone who have good reasons not to move to a certain place.

Moving country is definitely a bigger step than moving state, and learning a new language is a big investment (though most swiss people speak english).

I hear good things about liberty in Costa Rica, but I'd probably never move there (unless there were absolutely no alternatives) because of the climate and the language barrier.

I've said many times that New Hampshire is probably one of the best places to be in America in terms of liberty, especially given the active liberty movement, but its certainly not the only opportunity, as many people here say, and in my opinion its not even the best opportunity, as many other people say.

Who I am criticizing is the hard-core FSP members who treat anyone who isn't in favor of the NH FSP as either being too lazy to do anything, or not caring about liberty enough, when there are plenty of good alternatives on the table.

All the grand standing and ego stroking is extremely off putting. If I saw more good things coming from the movement, and a more positive and realistic attitude to addressing problems, rather than delusion and derision, I'd be far more inclined to donate to the FSP, as I have done in the past.

But when people won't seriously address pretty much any problem with the FSP, and treat any criticism like some fucking battle, instead of a chance to work out whats best; donating money to the FSP just seems like a waste of money. I want the FSP to work, I want any liberty movement to work, but I don't want to pay money for a bunch of people to pat each other on the back and bury their heads in the sand.


Three issues here

1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
3) Looking at faults with the FSP. If the FSP is a bus (to move people to the state), as they tend to claim, then people probably don't want to stop and spend the time that it is going to take to get the bus running efficiently. They just want to get the bus to move people to NH so that they can abandon it. I certainly don't care what is wrong with the FSP organization, I just want people to sign-up so that I don't have think about the FSP anymore and we can get about the task of making a Freer State
Very special, Mark. I'm here in the NH and won't go anywhere, so the rest are just foolin themselves. Fatcat, enjoy your life wherever you are, too bad you were never part of anything important. Though, I'm sure you have a heartily response or whatever...
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Evil Muppet

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2009, 02:54:50 AM »

[youtube=425,350]-W6cT3Tvu9g[/youtube].
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2009, 03:34:38 AM »

If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.
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slayerboy

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2009, 03:49:55 AM »

If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.

Completely agree, I would too.  In a heartbeat.
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2009, 10:58:09 AM »

When the 2006 deadline was reached and that failure had occurred and you had 8000, 100s of movers, were beginning to see progress and you were in charge; what would you have done?
I would have done what Jason Sorens said would most likely be done. Reset the counter, change the SOI, and ask people who are still interested to sign up again. I would probably open it up to people already living in NH if I wanted to keep the 20,000 crap.

I think setting a threshold for the move, and deadlines are really bad ideas. The FSP has become "move to NH to fight for liberty ASAP", which is fine, but they need to dump the silly 20,000 goal. If they want to keep track of something, it should be movers, or "participants" in NH.
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guerilla_amplifier

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2009, 11:22:35 AM »

All kidding aside, I am not against FSP at all. Go for it. I believe wholly in moving somewhere to make a new life and in your freedom to do that. There are a lot of liberty-minded people everywhere that believe in making a stand where they are, and I'm all for that, too. The more liberty lovers, the better. I don't care where they live. In fact, I plan on looking into starting a free county project where I am moving.

This creepy attitude that SOME of you movers have that is so snobby, so superior to others--it's not doing you any favors. Your name calling, snide remarks, and your baseless judgment show me exactly what kind of people are moving to NH as part of the FSP. To those folks I say "no thanks" --your idealized cult of FSP is the best reason for not joining the FSP, even if I did move to NH. Also, the people who firmly believe that there is NO OTHER PLACE/WAY to be active and be liberty activists, well that is a defeatist attitude, and I can tell you that I've had plenty of opportunity to flex my freedom of speech, right to assembly, and to participate in civil disobedience whenever I wanted where I live now. Your argument back to that is always, "but nothing happens where you are! You can change stuff in NH." To that I say...maybe. Maybe I can change stuff where I am, too. If the FSP is about concentrating people in one spot to be liberty activists, they may be thinking on too small a scale. An idea as compelling as liberty and freedom is like manure--if you put it all in one place, you just get a big stinky pile. If you spread it around, stuff grows.

Good luck in your efforts, FSPers. I love FTL and I will support the show, which is great entertainment and thought-provoking. I wouldn't even know about the FSP if I didn't listen to the show...what does that tell you? Conversely, I think that there might be more people that did move to NH that didn't sign up with the FSP because of the reasons I gave, so maybe the real point here is, to address fatcat...FSP isn't really a failure. People actually moved to NH. That's pretty amazing, considering. Who cares about the numbers? People actually moved (which is a pain in the ass at any time). That's incredible!  That's no fluke. And fatcat, you and I can rest assured that those folks are part of 'something special.' Because if we don't move to NH, we're just chopped liver, spinning our wheels, going nowhere, useless eaters...  
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2009, 11:25:17 AM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.

If you are going to do it in an English speaking country then a US state is the only way you can do it, especially is you are going to market it to US citizens. States are sovereign they control their municipalities.
I'm not so sure states are sovereign. Federal rules and laws still apply, and that is where many of the problems are.
Do you really think the feds wouldn't just step in?


Quote
If Grafton decides to free their citizens from taxes and shut down the government school program, the state will just come in and revoke their charter and incorporate them into Enfield. 
First, I think even Grafton is too big to try and "take over".

Grafton doesn't have any government schools, so no government school program would be shut down. At most, it would involve pulling out of the Mascoma Valley school district. But all you really need to do is convince everyone not to send their kids to the government school. The last time I checked, the way the local school tax was calculated was based on the number of students a town has attending public schools. I'm not sure about the state school tax.

You could also offer tax abatement to everyone that doesn't use the public school system. That would leave the people using the system to pay for it.

Is there precedence for the state of NH ever revoking the charter of a town that is hundreds of years old?


Quote
If you want to provide any real freedom from the political apparatus you need a state
So, what is your current estimate of how long it will take to get "real freedom" at the state level?

Also, to get any real freedom at the state level, you need to secede. GLWT.

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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2009, 11:42:02 AM »

1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
You see a lot of activity because that is where you are, and the people you hang out with. The easiest place for a US citizen to get involved is where they are right now.

Quote
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
I have asked and haven't heard how NH is viable.

The plan seems to be "move to NH ASAP, and see what happens!".

Explain to me how you plan on getting liberty/freedom in NH.
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fase2000tdi

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2009, 12:58:17 PM »

1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
You see a lot of activity because that is where you are, and the people you hang out with. The easiest place for a US citizen to get involved is where they are right now.

Quote
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
I have asked and haven't heard how NH is viable.

The plan seems to be "move to NH ASAP, and see what happens!".

Explain to me how you plan on getting liberty/freedom in NH.

We don't. We're actually going to lock ourselves in a Walmart and taunt the feds til they burn the building down with us inside.
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Evil Muppet

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2009, 01:09:47 PM »

All kidding aside, I am not against FSP at all. Go for it. I believe wholly in moving somewhere to make a new life and in your freedom to do that. There are a lot of liberty-minded people everywhere that believe in making a stand where they are, and I'm all for that, too. The more liberty lovers, the better. I don't care where they live. In fact, I plan on looking into starting a free county project where I am moving.

This creepy attitude that SOME of you movers have that is so snobby, so superior to others--it's not doing you any favors. Your name calling, snide remarks, and your baseless judgment show me exactly what kind of people are moving to NH as part of the FSP. To those folks I say "no thanks" --your idealized cult of FSP is the best reason for not joining the FSP, even if I did move to NH. Also, the people who firmly believe that there is NO OTHER PLACE/WAY to be active and be liberty activists, well that is a defeatist attitude, and I can tell you that I've had plenty of opportunity to flex my freedom of speech, right to assembly, and to participate in civil disobedience whenever I wanted where I live now. Your argument back to that is always, "but nothing happens where you are! You can change stuff in NH." To that I say...maybe. Maybe I can change stuff where I am, too. If the FSP is about concentrating people in one spot to be liberty activists, they may be thinking on too small a scale. An idea as compelling as liberty and freedom is like manure--if you put it all in one place, you just get a big stinky pile. If you spread it around, stuff grows.

Good luck in your efforts, FSPers. I love FTL and I will support the show, which is great entertainment and thought-provoking. I wouldn't even know about the FSP if I didn't listen to the show...what does that tell you? Conversely, I think that there might be more people that did move to NH that didn't sign up with the FSP because of the reasons I gave, so maybe the real point here is, to address fatcat...FSP isn't really a failure. People actually moved to NH. That's pretty amazing, considering. Who cares about the numbers? People actually moved (which is a pain in the ass at any time). That's incredible!  That's no fluke. And fatcat, you and I can rest assured that those folks are part of 'something special.' Because if we don't move to NH, we're just chopped liver, spinning our wheels, going nowhere, useless eaters...  

You spend a lot of time just pissing and moaning. 
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Rusty Nut

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2009, 01:14:14 PM »

Colorado is as free if not more than NH, I've heard Mark and Ian say that NH has recently been named the freest state in the union.  True but what they don't say is it tied with Colorado.  

Open carry?  Check
Shall issue?  Check
Relatively low taxes?  Check
Several unincorporated municipalities?  Check
Pot legal in Denver?  Check
A libertarian streak that runs through CO the size of NH?  Check

Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2009, 01:31:21 PM »

Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.

Just hog tie and ship off all the bureacrauts elsewhere
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DontTreadOnMike

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2009, 02:27:19 PM »

If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.

Everyone speaks English in Switzerland.
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2009, 08:19:03 PM »

When the 2006 deadline was reached and that failure had occurred and you had 8000, 100s of movers, were beginning to see progress and you were in charge; what would you have done?
I would have done what Jason Sorens said would most likely be done. Reset the counter, change the SOI, and ask people who are still interested to sign up again. I would probably open it up to people already living in NH if I wanted to keep the 20,000 crap.

I think setting a threshold for the move, and deadlines are really bad ideas. The FSP has become "move to NH to fight for liberty ASAP", which is fine, but they need to dump the silly 20,000 goal. If they want to keep track of something, it should be movers, or "participants" in NH.

I concur, but I do think getting rid of the 20k goal will be yet another failure for the organization in what is becoming a disturbing chain of failures. So, that is why I just want to quick hit the 20k goal and move on to getting people to get their butts here.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2009, 12:59:21 AM »

If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.

Everyone speaks English in Switzerland.

Still not my country. I have no reason to expect that.
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