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Author Topic: I'm not a porcupine anymore  (Read 62052 times)

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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2009, 12:13:17 PM »

Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.

Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
Maybe he is on some things, but not at running an organization. Him being the chair of the FSP BOD has been a disaster.

I wouldn't know. As I have said I think that there are some big problems with how the FSP is run. That is why I have been working on an outbound calling program to reach the 20,000 mark. Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
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kalmia

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2009, 12:57:07 PM »

Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.

Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
Maybe he is on some things, but not at running an organization. Him being the chair of the FSP BOD has been a disaster.

I wouldn't know. As I have said I think that there are some big problems with how the FSP is run. That is why I have been working on an outbound calling program to reach the 20,000 mark. Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
But you can't get a calling list, right?

kalmia

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2009, 01:04:20 PM »

Americans coming into Zug would be far more easy to get rid of than Americans moving into NH.

I don't think that the NH FSP is the only answer.  But I do think that consentrating together is the answer.  I think multiple areas is a fine idea.  Move to Wyoming, Zug or Costa Rica if you think that is better.  Help the seasteaders if you want, but I don't expect anything with that for at least several years.  People can be in NH working on things and building workable ideas by the time the seasteaders have any firm plans.  You could go join them after helping out in some place like NH or Wyoming.  You pretty much have to live on land for now, so pick a good place.

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2009, 01:06:53 PM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
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guerilla_amplifier

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2009, 01:15:33 PM »

On the whole, the free state project fails because of one thing, I think: this strange demand that you sign up. I would never do it just because the whole idea of joining a 'group' to support 'freedom' is at its core an incorrect notion. I am an independent, free thinking individual; I do not subscribe to the joining of any, ANY, group in the name of freedom. I subscribe to direct action on your ideals. Joining a group to simply label yourself such a thing is sort of sophomoric and of the old 'red team--blue team' mind set.

I am a liberty activist; I am not moving to NH because my partner does not want to even consider it. It's an automatic kind of thing, that strong of a rejection of an idea within a committed relationship. You can't disregard it.

I most certainly would entertain the notion of moving to NH if I could. But if I did, I would never, EVER, join the FSP.
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2009, 01:16:30 PM »

Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
Isn't that kinda like saying once Sept. 2006 came up the FSP leadership became irrelevant?

I think they will just "change the rules" again so they don't have to go away.
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2009, 01:19:32 PM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2009, 01:22:29 PM »

Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
Isn't that kinda like saying once Sept. 2006 came up the FSP leadership became irrelevant?

I think they will just "change the rules" again so they don't have to go away.

I hadn't thought of that possibility, but they will still have the job of getting signers to move. Hopefully that will keep them busy. I know Irena and Varrin quite well and they don't seem like the type to break the rules in that way.

When the 2006 deadline was reached and that failure had occurred and you had 8000, 100s of movers, were beginning to see progress and you were in charge; what would you have done?
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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2009, 01:28:59 PM »

WHY, why do you guys keep arguing about the numbers? It's a canard. Reject the COLLECTIVE that is the FSP.

As Ian always says, "I'm not part of your WE."
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2009, 01:41:15 PM »

Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.

If you are going to do it in an English speaking country then a US state is the only way you can do it, especially is you are going to market it to US citizens. States are sovereign they control their municipalities. If Grafton decides to free their citizens from taxes and shut down the government school program, the state will just come in and revoke their charter and incorporate them into Enfield. If you want to provide any real freedom from the political apparatus you need a state.
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Coconut

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2009, 01:53:56 PM »

You know what else is a joke?

Thinking free staters can take over Keene.

Citizens and officials of Keene are aware of the Activist's presence and are beginning to realize they aren't leaving. It's less and less looking to them like "The Mickey Mouse Club" that will fizzle out in a year or so.

The truth is, I'm already safer from government in Keene because of the activists. Unlike other places in NH, Keene police won't bother anyone open carrying. They won't bother anyone copwatching. They still, unfortunately, bother people for recording inside public buildings, but we'll make ground on that too.

If something in the country is going to change for liberty, it'll happen in Keene first. Is it likely, I don't know, but at least people are taking a chance on it.
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2009, 01:56:56 PM »

I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.

Maybe, we will see.

I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).

If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.

Sure, I understand there are personal reasons. I'm not criticizing anyone who have good reasons not to move to a certain place.

Moving country is definitely a bigger step than moving state, and learning a new language is a big investment (though most swiss people speak english).

I hear good things about liberty in Costa Rica, but I'd probably never move there (unless there were absolutely no alternatives) because of the climate and the language barrier.

I've said many times that New Hampshire is probably one of the best places to be in America in terms of liberty, especially given the active liberty movement, but its certainly not the only opportunity, as many people here say, and in my opinion its not even the best opportunity, as many other people say.

Who I am criticizing is the hard-core FSP members who treat anyone who isn't in favor of the NH FSP as either being too lazy to do anything, or not caring about liberty enough, when there are plenty of good alternatives on the table.

All the grand standing and ego stroking is extremely off putting. If I saw more good things coming from the movement, and a more positive and realistic attitude to addressing problems, rather than delusion and derision, I'd be far more inclined to donate to the FSP, as I have done in the past.

But when people won't seriously address pretty much any problem with the FSP, and treat any criticism like some fucking battle, instead of a chance to work out whats best; donating money to the FSP just seems like a waste of money. I want the FSP to work, I want any liberty movement to work, but I don't want to pay money for a bunch of people to pat each other on the back and bury their heads in the sand.


Three issues here

1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
3) Looking at faults with the FSP. If the FSP is a bus (to move people to the state), as they tend to claim, then people probably don't want to stop and spend the time that it is going to take to get the bus running efficiently. They just want to get the bus to move people to NH so that they can abandon it. I certainly don't care what is wrong with the FSP organization, I just want people to sign-up so that I don't have think about the FSP anymore and we can get about the task of making a Freer State
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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2009, 02:32:31 PM »

The problem with the argument for a geopolitical movement is the fact that the majority of all political movements come after the resultant change was being contemplated by powers that be or that some charismatic politicians/leaders made some significant push in a given direction. Thus, the geopolitical movement itself can't always be supposed in terms of purely grassroots maneuvering. Rather, it can be seen as both a description of underlying change already taking place and one that gives credence for the change (an incentive for leaders to go that direction in their thinking and acting). This is obvious in terms of the adoption of [classical] liberal values in Europe, especially. Moving from thinkers in Britain, outward to continental Europe (but there were others prior such as the Spanish Scholastics, and French influened thinkers like Cantillion that laid the bedrock for such a shift).

So, what that means for me is this: where are our Spanish Scholastics? Where is our Cantillion (or even Turgot)? If the ideas aren't there to stir the statesman and peasant alike, then the movement is doomed to fail, imho.
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kalmia

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2009, 01:39:16 AM »

On the whole, the free state project fails because of one thing, I think: this strange demand that you sign up. I would never do it just because the whole idea of joining a 'group' to support 'freedom' is at its core an incorrect notion. I am an independent, free thinking individual; I do not subscribe to the joining of any, ANY, group in the name of freedom. I subscribe to direct action on your ideals. Joining a group to simply label yourself such a thing is sort of sophomoric and of the old 'red team--blue team' mind set.

I am a liberty activist; I am not moving to NH because my partner does not want to even consider it. It's an automatic kind of thing, that strong of a rejection of an idea within a committed relationship. You can't disregard it.

I most certainly would entertain the notion of moving to NH if I could. But if I did, I would never, EVER, join the FSP.


I think you miss the point of signing up with the FSP.  People want to move where there is a concentration of other liberty activists.  Signing lets others considering the move know that there are more people intending to move also, thus encouraging more people to move.  Once in NH, you don't have to be a part of the FSP.  You are then just a liberty activist living in NH.

It is important to show progress to encourage others to also move.

Evil Muppet

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2009, 02:01:16 AM »

WHY, why do you guys keep arguing about the numbers? It's a canard. Reject the COLLECTIVE that is the FSP.

As Ian always says, "I'm not part of your WE."

Thank God for that too.  You sound like another one of the useless eaters out there. 
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