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Author Topic: I'm not a porcupine anymore  (Read 52119 times)

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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2009, 09:15:07 PM »

All i'm saying is in the free market false advertising is a big no no. Explain hopes and desire. Accomplishments and everything else. Just dont embelish or mislead others. Other then that I have no problem with the FSP.
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2009, 09:16:01 PM »

the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.

This is false.

huh?

I guess my comprehension skills must be fucked

From the First 1000 pledge on pledgebank.com.

Quote
"I will move to New Hampshire by 12/31/2008 where I will work to bring about a society in which government’s maximum role is protecting life, liberty, and property but only if 999 other liberty minded individuals will do the same."

Deadline to sign up by: 31st December 2006
1,030 people signed up (31 over target)

Maybe my calendar is wrong. the FSP website says there are 720 movers. its now in the last half of 2009.

But hey, why break the lifelong habit of spinning the FSP in the best possible light no matter what.

The deadline to get 20,000 signers went and gone and that was swept under the carpet expertly.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that the signer goal wasn't reached in time.

I would like to say, neither the Statement of Intent nor the 1st 1000 pleadge state "I will inform the FSP that I have moved upon reaching the state". I suspect that there are many more movers than the Mover Number, though I will admit that I fluidly use the number when it serves my purposes. The Mover Number is a real problem, that much is true.
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Russell Griswold

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2009, 09:19:58 PM »

More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2009, 09:20:15 PM »

fatcat, sometimes people have unexpected things that come up in life which delay their plans. All I know is that me moving here from Michigan has helped me a lot, both financially and socially. I respect your decision to stay where you are, just don't trash others who feel differently. What really attracted me make the move other than more freedom was the Drama thread. It's going down in history as pure legendary.

What does any of this have to do with failing to meet the deadline?

I'm sick of all this bullshit goalpost shifting.

"Oh it doesn't matter that we didn't hit the deadline, people will move anyway." "Oh it doesn't matter that the deadline to have 20,000 signers by 2006 or disband the FSP wasn't reached."

Then what was the point of the deadline? If meeting a deadline isn't important, why have one?

I'm sure there are some people who signed the first 1000 pledge, who are still intending to move. Does this mean the goal was succeeded? The pledge was signed in 2006, thats 2 years. shit comes up, but thats nearly 30% who didn't move when they said they would. If you hit 20,000 signers, and 6,000 people don't show up after 5 years, are you going to shrug that off aswell?

Failing a deadline doesn't mean the whole project has failed, but you should at least accept the failure happened, and try to explain it, and try to improve.

I'm not surprised though, for some reason signing up to the FSP seems to make people diametrically apposed to acknowledging any form of failure.

Quote
It's going down in history as pure legendary.

lol.

Also, I'm not trashing anyone, I'm commenting on the failure i percieve, but every time I get the same shit. No one wants to actually talk about the problems, they just get bitchy and defensive "well what are you doing for liberty?" "it will take time to get to critical mass" "if you don't want to move thats fine, but you shouldn't put others down who are trying to do positive things"

It's like your all reading from the same script.

i.e. shut the fuck up if you don't agree with the FSP, because we sure don't care about rationally discussing the successes and failures of the organization, and how it can be helped.

Also, check out the embarrassing responses to my attempt at rationally analyze advertising for NH liberty, and suggest what the most effecient methods might be. No one said "hey your maths are wrong here", or "this bits right but this bits wrong".

No, I got the standard immature reaction that anyone not sucking the dick of a NH libber must either be a lazy coward, or just shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 09:26:50 PM by fatcat »
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2009, 09:21:33 PM »

More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.

No more girls like the ones dancing on the ridely report will get me there. If they are like minded thats an even bigger plus.


@fatcat - They're just trying to be optimistic. What else can you do in this situation but hope and strive for the best you can? Out of country may not be a viable solution for everyone either.
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Russell Griswold

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2009, 09:29:14 PM »

More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.

No more girls like the ones dancing on the ridely report will get me there. If they are like minded thats an even bigger plus.

Oh, man... You can find those kind of girls at any frat or college party.
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2009, 09:32:28 PM »

More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.

No more girls like the ones dancing on the ridely report will get me there. If they are like minded thats an even bigger plus.

Oh, man... You can find those kind of girls at any frat or college party.

What about liberty minded girls?? I can find that here or even just head to the bar/club on the weekend. Be nice to find a brain to go with those jugs.
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2009, 09:33:15 PM »

I'm sick of all this bullshit goalpost shifting.

"Oh it doesn't matter that we didn't hit the deadline, people will move anyway." "Oh it doesn't matter that the deadline to have 20,000 signers by 2006 or disband the FSP wasn't reached."

Then what was the point of the deadline? If meeting a deadline isn't important, why have one?

I'm sure there are some people who signed the first 1000 pledge, who are still intending to move. Does this mean the goal was succeeded? The pledge was signed in 2006, thats 2 years. shit comes up, but thats nearly 30% who didn't move when they said they would. If you hit 20,000 signers, and 6,000 people don't show up after 5 years, are you going to shrug that off aswell?

Failing a deadline doesn't mean the whole project has failed, but you should at least accept the failure happened, and try to explain it, and try to improve.

I'm not surprised though, for some reason signing up to the FSP seems to make people diametrically apposed to acknowledging any form of failure.

Also, I'm not trashing anyone, I'm commenting on the failure i percieve, but every time I get the same shit. No one wants to actually talk about the problems, they just get bitchy and defensive "well what are you doing for liberty?" "it will take time to get to critical mass" "if you don't want to move thats fine, but you shouldn't put others down who are trying to do positive things"

It's like your all reading from the same script.

i.e. shut the fuck up if you don't agree with the FSP, because we sure don't care about rationally discussing the successes and failures of the organization, and how it can be helped.

Also, check out the embarrassing responses to my attempt at rationally analyze advertising for NH liberty, and suggest what the most effecient methods might be. No one said "hey your maths are wrong here", or "this bits right but this bits wrong".

No, I got the standard immature reaction that anyone not sucking the dick of a NH libber must either be a lazy coward, or just shouldn't be taken seriously at all.



I guess I didn't understand your complaints. You should state them clearly. No rational being can deny that the FSP failed to reach the 2006 deadline, but they chose to continue the way they chose to continue. What can be done? The organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.

The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.

Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 09:35:58 PM by FTL_Mark »
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2009, 09:36:49 PM »

Quote
organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.

As far as any other projects go in america. At a snails pace.

Quote
The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.



At least you're being realistic mark.
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JWI

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2009, 09:40:01 PM »

Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.

Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2009, 09:41:43 PM »

I guess I didn't understand your complaints. You should state them clearly. No rational being can deny that the FSP failed to reach the 2006 deadline, but they chose to continue the way they chose to continue. What can be done? The organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.

The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.

Well thats one of the most realistic opinions I've heard from an FSP proponent.

The problem for me isn't that there are failures in certain aspects, its that the failures aren't seriously addressed by anyone most members.

"nevermind" seems to be the prevalent response.

Learning from failure is extremely important, but you can't learn if you refuse to accept them and just choose to live in a fantasy world where the "tipping point" is always round the corner,

The failures in the 2006 deadline for 20,000 could have been put into play for other deadlines.

If the deadline wasn't met, then it was unrealistic, why was it? What did we misunderstand? Are we still making the same misunderstandings? Are other deadlines unrealistic?

If people are going to say, "20,000 number doesn't matter, we could make a huge difference with only 5,000", then why isn't this shit being put into action right now?

Is the FSP just going to wait indefinitely till they hit 20,000? If having libertarians in New Hampshire as people here have suggested will make more people join, why not start a new campaign? The Next 5,000?

I'm aware some of this stuff is probably being planned, but why isn't it being done now? Maybe theres a good reason it isn't being done, but I don't ever see it being discussed in discussions such as these, just same tired old defensive bullshit.

In my opinion people are far too concerned about "supporting" each other with mindless praise, which achieves nothing but swollen egos, and not eager enough to actually shop the shit for how all this stuff is going to work. Ideology is not enough. Wanting things to work is not enough, people need to make them work.

That means really talking, criticizing, improving.

We can start the back slapping and blowjob festival once we've buried government.

As for signing up to help improve things, its exactly the attitude that constructive criticism shouldn't be addressed by an outsider that makes me think the FSP isn't a group worth joining. I want a group thats dedicated to taking every opportunity to get the most out of liberty. Being an ass to someone criticizing you might be a natural response, but its missing an opportunity to A) make an outsider warm to the group B) actually address the problem
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 09:50:19 PM by fatcat »
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2009, 09:49:35 PM »

I guess I didn't understand your complaints. You should state them clearly. No rational being can deny that the FSP failed to reach the 2006 deadline, but they chose to continue the way they chose to continue. What can be done? The organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.

The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.

Well thats one of the most realistic opinions I've heard from an FSP proponent.

The problem for me isn't that there are failures in certain aspects, its that the failures aren't seriously addressed by anyone most members.

"nevermind" seems to be the prevalent response.

Learning from failure is extremely important, but you can't learn if you refuse to accept them and just choose to live in a fantasy world where the "tipping point" is always round the corner,

The failures in the 2006 deadline for 20,000 could have been put into play for other deadlines.

If the deadline wasn't met, then it was unrealistic, why was it? What did we misunderstand? Are we still making the same misunderstandings? Are other deadlines unrealistic?

If people are going to say, "20,000 number doesn't matter, we could make a huge difference with only 5,000", then why isn't this shit being put into action right now?

Is the FSP just going to wait indefinitely till they hit 20,000? If having libertarians in New Hampshire as people here have suggested will make more people join, why not start a new campaign? The Next 5,000?

I'm aware some of this stuff is probably being planned, but why isn't it being done now? Maybe theres a good reason, but I don't ever see it being discussed in discussions such as these, just same tired old defensive bullshit.

In my opinion people are far too concerned about "supporting" each other with mindless praise, which achieves nothing but swollen egos, and not eager enough to actually shop the shit for how all this stuff is going to work. Ideology is not enough. Wanting things to work is not enough, people need to make them work.

I wish that the problems that you address here were looked at and fixed. It might be that this is a problem inherent in a system were a Strong Man (Sorens) sets up a system and then hands that system over to a weak board of directors. It might be the decentralized nature of the participants. Either way I would like the FAP Organization to go away (this is the feeling of many signers, btw.) and it will once we reach 20,000 signers. It might stick around for a while to expedite movers, but at least we can then ignore them.
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Hideaki769

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2009, 09:53:35 PM »

Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.

Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!

Mark might but not the FSP. Not misleading members or being somewhat weird about the numbers game. They need a rehaul on marketing.
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JWI

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2009, 09:55:38 PM »

Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.

Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!

Mark might but not the FSP. Not misleading members or being somewhat weird about the numbers game. They need a rehaul on marketing.

Well the FSP numbers are off by at least 2.
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2009, 09:59:40 PM »

Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.

Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!

Mark might but not the FSP. Not misleading members or being somewhat weird about the numbers game. They need a rehaul on marketing.

They hired some new guy. We will see how that goes. I tried to fix the slow sign-up problem but setting up an outbound calling plan, but I was/am stifled by the lack of a libertarian phone number list and the need to sell ads to make money.
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