The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: DontTreadOnMike on July 02, 2009, 02:33:21 PM
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:(
Ohhh well....
My wife and I were going to move to NH but we're leaning more towards Colorado now. We didn't pledge to move before 2012 though so there's still time to figure it out.
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Hey, at least Colorado has jobs. 8)
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Enjoy going to FEMA camp alone asshole.
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You can't quit.
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Enjoy going to FEMA camp alone asshole.
If I'm going to a FEMA camp I don't really care if I go alone or not.
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Its not like your missing much.
If living in New Hampshire coincides with your other plans, then I would recommend being engaged in the NH liberty movement, however the idea that NH is somehow some holy grail of freedom (liberty in our lifetimes LOL), or even some last bastion of American liberty is a joke, and entirely out of touch with the facts on the ground.
Its been nearly 10 years since foundation, and only 720 people have actually moved, hundreds who were already living in NH at the time. The deadline to get 20,000 sign ups by 2006 failed, the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.
The fact that only 300 or so libertarians in New Hampshire (0.02%) actually signed up for the FSP tells you all you need to know about the raging hard-on voluntaryists and their grandiose grand standing.
The whole idea was to get such a concentration of libertarians that they could actually make a meaningful change. Now NH libbers are still carrying the whole mantra that the FSP is OH SO IMPORTANT, when the whole dynamic has changed.
It failed, get over it.
Now there can still be an NH liberty movement, but the aims need to scale to the reality. You're looking at maybe 500 people a year (at the most optimistic), or even less, given that a large percentage of FSP sign ups are likely to be unfulfilled.
This is not Liberty in your lifetime, its a bunch of libertarians together, trying shit and not getting very far, just like there are all over the country, all over the world, so give up the fucking hero complex.
The best you can hope for is to re-arrange the deckchairs (i.e. aim for weed decrim or some other fringe liberty), while the Fed goes to town on your liberties, or move country.
wait.....
THEY STOPPED THE SEATBELT BILL!!!!!!!
in short : ignore the faggots who are going to act like you're shitting on the world because you won't join their happy fun club.
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(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8088/protest.jpg)
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(http://content.pyzam.com/funnypics/people/protesting-protestors.jpg)
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(http://media.ebaumsworld.com/2007/09/sign09.jpg)
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That's weird, I agree with fatcat.
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[...]
Well I do think it's important to be around like minded people, and it would be cool to have that many activists around to help defend me if I get arrested, it's just not practical for me. I'm NOT disillusioned with the FSP (I never thought they would get to 20,000 or free NH anyway) it just isn't practical for me. If my situation changes, I'd still like to move there.
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That's weird, I agree with fatcat.
Thats cuz he's right.
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Its not like your missing much.
If living in New Hampshire coincides with your other plans, then I would recommend being engaged in the NH liberty movement, however the idea that NH is somehow some holy grail of freedom (liberty in our lifetimes LOL), or even some last bastion of American liberty is a joke, and entirely out of touch with the facts on the ground.
Its been nearly 10 years since foundation, and only 720 people have actually moved, hundreds who were already living in NH at the time. The deadline to get 20,000 sign ups by 2006 failed, the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.
The fact that only 300 or so libertarians in New Hampshire (0.02%) actually signed up for the FSP tells you all you need to know about the raging hard-on voluntaryists and their grandiose grand standing.
The whole idea was to get such a concentration of libertarians that they could actually make a meaningful change. Now NH libbers are still carrying the whole mantra that the FSP is OH SO IMPORTANT, when the whole dynamic has changed.
It failed, get over it.
Now there can still be an NH liberty movement, but the aims need to scale to the reality. You're looking at maybe 500 people a year (at the most optimistic), or even less, given that a large percentage of FSP sign ups are likely to be unfulfilled.
This is not Liberty in your lifetime, its a bunch of libertarians together, trying shit and not getting very far, just like there are all over the country, all over the world, so give up the fucking hero complex.
The best you can hope for is to re-arrange the deckchairs (i.e. aim for weed decrim or some other fringe liberty), while the Fed goes to town on your liberties, or move country.
wait.....
THEY STOPPED THE SEATBELT BILL!!!!!!!
in short : ignore the faggots who are going to act like you're shitting on the world because you won't join their happy fun club.
So what are you doing? Or do you not really care that much to do anything?
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I guess I sort of agree with Fatcat. If someone tries to give you crap about when you are moving, ignore it. I would hope that no one would. I think the first step for the FSP (getting to 20,000 signers) is not yet met. That is the important part. Thank you for signing and and take solace in the fact that Colorado was ranked very close to NH on the Mercatus Ctrs rankers.
The rest of Fatcat's rant sounds like the same crappy attitude that I am so glad to have gotten away from in Florida. Sure, it will take a while to have huge success here in NH, but we can show real victories. If you don't want to see them, that is your option. May your chains rest lightly. If you want to be in a place where there seems to be a better chance that the government might shrink instead of grow, NH is that place.
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So what are you doing? Or do you not really care that much to do anything?
I'm making signs with which I will protest some government intrusion. I will take video of said protest and post it to Youtube. I will then brag to all my like minded friends how eventually my signs will bring the state to it's knees.
I will then hold an elaborate camp out.
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Sure, it will take a while to have huge success here in NH, but we can show real victories. If you don't want to see them, that is your option.
Dont get me wrong I love the idea of the FSP and it would be great if it worked. But realistically it sure as hell not gonna be in our lifetime. It's going to take a long while and while you've had some small real victories it isn't stopping them from restricting or creating every restraint on freedom they come out with. Now if you created a standstill on laws being passed while reverting other laws I might change my opinion some. But who knows what the future holds. I remember hearing about FSP years ago when I was in HS listening to FTL for the first time. It's been a while and really not much progress for such a large time span.
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I think it will likely reach a tipping point. I don't know when that will be, but I think there are a lot of people who will be willing to move or agree to move once there are enough people already there and doing stuff.
Being around the people there is likely one of the best immediate benefits.
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I think it will likely reach a tipping point. I don't know when that will be, but I think there are a lot of people who will be willing to move or agree to move once there are enough people already there and doing stuff.
Being around the people there is likely one of the best immediate benefits.
We could all hope and pray there is a huge breaking point in the government but that can't be foreseen. As it stands now things dont look to good. I think that would be the only tipping point to speed things up immensely.
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I think it will likely reach a tipping point. I don't know when that will be, but I think there are a lot of people who will be willing to move or agree to move once there are enough people already there and doing stuff.
Being around the people there is likely one of the best immediate benefits.
We could all hope and pray there is a huge breaking point in the government but that can't be foreseen. As it stands now things dont look to good. I think that would be the only tipping point to speed things up immensely.
That tipping point is a long ways off. Half of the voters believe they can "control" government by "holding the line". No matter how bad it gets these people will continue to fight to win popularity contests so they can hold the line on taxes and fool themselves into thinking that things are getting better.
They won't do anything unless something very drastic happens (banning guns?) but even then I think they'll fight for votes in order to win popularity contests so they can undo the damage...or at least make promises about undoing the damage.
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Sure, it will take a while to have huge success here in NH, but we can show real victories. If you don't want to see them, that is your option.
Dont get me wrong I love the idea of the FSP and it would be great if it worked. But realistically it sure as hell not gonna be in our lifetime. It's going to take a long while and while you've had some small real victories it isn't stopping them from restricting or creating every restraint on freedom they come out with. Now if you created a standstill on laws being passed while reverting other laws I might change my opinion some. But who knows what the future holds. I remember hearing about FSP years ago when I was in HS listening to FTL for the first time. It's been a while and really not much progress for such a large time span.
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape on the Liberty in Our Lifetimes byline. It is marketing. I mean what is liberty? Who's lifetime? We certainly haven't stopped the growth of government here, but we only have 700 movers. What will happen when we have 7000? It will take a while for people to move here, get established, make their mistakes and begin having an affect. The FSP is an effed up mess, but it is a world better than most places and I believe it is headed in the right direction.
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They won't do anything unless something very drastic happens (banning guns?)
You're kidding right? It's drastic but i think it'll "all be safer for the kids". Ignorant masses will put up with it. They want their children to be safe. Doesnt england have a ban on guns?
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They won't do anything unless something very drastic happens (banning guns?)
You're kidding right? It's drastic but i think it'll "all be safer for the kids". Ignorant masses will put up with it. They want their children to be safe. Doesnt england have a ban on guns?
I don't know, I give the pro-2nd amendment people a little more credit than that. In the end I think you're right though. They see some "common sense" law or ban and then try to tinker within those parameters. Meanwhile they'll send some fundraising letters from the NRA screaming about gun rights, people will send in a lot of money.....and nothing will change.
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Sure, it will take a while to have huge success here in NH, but we can show real victories. If you don't want to see them, that is your option.
Dont get me wrong I love the idea of the FSP and it would be great if it worked. But realistically it sure as hell not gonna be in our lifetime. It's going to take a long while and while you've had some small real victories it isn't stopping them from restricting or creating every restraint on freedom they come out with. Now if you created a standstill on laws being passed while reverting other laws I might change my opinion some. But who knows what the future holds. I remember hearing about FSP years ago when I was in HS listening to FTL for the first time. It's been a while and really not much progress for such a large time span.
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape on the Liberty in Our Lifetimes byline. It is marketing. I mean what is liberty? Who's lifetime? We certainly haven't stopped the growth of government here, but we only have 700 movers. What will happen when we have 7000? It will take a while for people to move here, get established, make their mistakes and begin having an affect. The FSP is an effed up mess, but it is a world better than most places and I believe it is headed in the right direction.
You're completely right it is a marketing line but it's false marketing. As catchy as the phrase is I'd rather have people going there with a realistic understanding and not have some sort of deluded sense about it all. I think if you get to 7000 that'd be great and things would start to get rolling and be far more effective but your talking about 10x what you have now if those numbers are exact on movers. How old is the FSP now? 8years? I really do hope it works and i'll probably move eventually myself just so I can be around like minded ppl. To have my next of kin growing around a society that has that understanding would be great in my opinion. I think there will be a lot more hope in there lifetime then there ever will be in mine.
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They won't do anything unless something very drastic happens (banning guns?)
You're kidding right? It's drastic but i think it'll "all be safer for the kids". Ignorant masses will put up with it. They want their children to be safe. Doesnt england have a ban on guns?
I don't know, I give the pro-2nd amendment people a little more credit than that. In the end I think you're right though. They see some "common sense" law or ban and then try to tinker within those parameters. Meanwhile they'll send some fundraising letters from the NRA screaming about gun rights, people will send in a lot of money.....and nothing will change.
i think there are like 4million NRA members? The census on americas population is at some 300million... I'm sure the NRA has stopped guns from being banned outright but they havent managed to stop every restriction on guns america has put forth so far.
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Like I said, I'm not disillusioned with the FSP or anything so if that tipping point comes, I'll definitely move. I plan to jump out in front of the parade and pretend I was there the whole time. And you can all call me a posuer at porcfest...until you try my homebrew. Then you'll be glad I decided to come ;)
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Sure, it will take a while to have huge success here in NH, but we can show real victories. If you don't want to see them, that is your option.
Dont get me wrong I love the idea of the FSP and it would be great if it worked. But realistically it sure as hell not gonna be in our lifetime. It's going to take a long while and while you've had some small real victories it isn't stopping them from restricting or creating every restraint on freedom they come out with. Now if you created a standstill on laws being passed while reverting other laws I might change my opinion some. But who knows what the future holds. I remember hearing about FSP years ago when I was in HS listening to FTL for the first time. It's been a while and really not much progress for such a large time span.
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape on the Liberty in Our Lifetimes byline. It is marketing. I mean what is liberty? Who's lifetime? We certainly haven't stopped the growth of government here, but we only have 700 movers. What will happen when we have 7000? It will take a while for people to move here, get established, make their mistakes and begin having an affect. The FSP is an effed up mess, but it is a world better than most places and I believe it is headed in the right direction.
You're completely right it is a marketing line but it's false marketing. As catchy as the phrase is I'd rather have people going there with a realistic understand and not have some sort of deluded sense about it all. I think if you get to 7000 that'd be great and things would start to get rolling and be far more effective but your talking about 10x what you have now if those numbers are exact on movers. How old is the FSP now? 8years? I really do hope it works and i'll probably move eventually myself just so I can be around like minded ppl. To have my next of kin growing around a society that has that understanding would be great in my opinion. I think there will be a lot more hope in there lifetime then there ever will be in mine.
Sure it has taken awhile to get where we are. If nothing changed I would expect the rate to stay the same. But things have changed and continue to change.
Things that have changed:
1. We are having some success, enough success to convince *some* people to move.
2. FTL is growing. We have been the #1 recruiter for the FSP for a couple/few years. When we are on 100's of stations we will be attracting *alot* more people.
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Like I said, I'm not disillusioned with the FSP or anything so if that tipping point comes, I'll definitely move. I plan to jump out in front of the parade and pretend I was there the whole time. And you can all call me a posuer at porcfest...until you try my homebrew. Then you'll be glad I decided to come ;)
I meant to say: You are a Porcupine as long as you have signed the Statement of Intent.
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the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.
This is false.
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the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.
This is false.
huh?
I guess my comprehension skills must be fucked
From the First 1000 pledge on pledgebank.com. (http://www.pledgebank.com/First1000)
"I will move to New Hampshire by 12/31/2008 where I will work to bring about a society in which government’s maximum role is protecting life, liberty, and property but only if 999 other liberty minded individuals will do the same."
Deadline to sign up by: 31st December 2006
1,030 people signed up (31 over target)
Maybe my calendar is wrong. the FSP website says there are 720 movers. its now in the last half of 2009.
Getting people to sign up to do something != them actually doing it.
But hey, why break the lifelong habit of spinning the FSP in the best possible light no matter what.
The deadline to get 20,000 signers went and gone and that was swept under the carpet expertly.
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fatcat, sometimes people have unexpected things that come up in life which delay their plans. All I know is that me moving here from Michigan has helped me a lot, both financially and socially. I respect your decision to stay where you are, just don't trash others who feel differently. What really attracted me make the move other than more freedom was the Drama thread. It's going down in history as pure legendary.
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All i'm saying is in the free market false advertising is a big no no. Explain hopes and desire. Accomplishments and everything else. Just dont embelish or mislead others. Other then that I have no problem with the FSP.
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the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.
This is false.
huh?
I guess my comprehension skills must be fucked
From the First 1000 pledge on pledgebank.com.
"I will move to New Hampshire by 12/31/2008 where I will work to bring about a society in which government’s maximum role is protecting life, liberty, and property but only if 999 other liberty minded individuals will do the same."
Deadline to sign up by: 31st December 2006
1,030 people signed up (31 over target)
Maybe my calendar is wrong. the FSP website says there are 720 movers. its now in the last half of 2009.
But hey, why break the lifelong habit of spinning the FSP in the best possible light no matter what.
The deadline to get 20,000 signers went and gone and that was swept under the carpet expertly.
Oh, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that the signer goal wasn't reached in time.
I would like to say, neither the Statement of Intent nor the 1st 1000 pleadge state "I will inform the FSP that I have moved upon reaching the state". I suspect that there are many more movers than the Mover Number, though I will admit that I fluidly use the number when it serves my purposes. The Mover Number is a real problem, that much is true.
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More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.
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fatcat, sometimes people have unexpected things that come up in life which delay their plans. All I know is that me moving here from Michigan has helped me a lot, both financially and socially. I respect your decision to stay where you are, just don't trash others who feel differently. What really attracted me make the move other than more freedom was the Drama thread. It's going down in history as pure legendary.
What does any of this have to do with failing to meet the deadline?
I'm sick of all this bullshit goalpost shifting.
"Oh it doesn't matter that we didn't hit the deadline, people will move anyway." "Oh it doesn't matter that the deadline to have 20,000 signers by 2006 or disband the FSP wasn't reached."
Then what was the point of the deadline? If meeting a deadline isn't important, why have one?
I'm sure there are some people who signed the first 1000 pledge, who are still intending to move. Does this mean the goal was succeeded? The pledge was signed in 2006, thats 2 years. shit comes up, but thats nearly 30% who didn't move when they said they would. If you hit 20,000 signers, and 6,000 people don't show up after 5 years, are you going to shrug that off aswell?
Failing a deadline doesn't mean the whole project has failed, but you should at least accept the failure happened, and try to explain it, and try to improve.
I'm not surprised though, for some reason signing up to the FSP seems to make people diametrically apposed to acknowledging any form of failure.
It's going down in history as pure legendary.
lol.
Also, I'm not trashing anyone, I'm commenting on the failure i percieve, but every time I get the same shit. No one wants to actually talk about the problems, they just get bitchy and defensive "well what are you doing for liberty?" "it will take time to get to critical mass" "if you don't want to move thats fine, but you shouldn't put others down who are trying to do positive things"
It's like your all reading from the same script.
i.e. shut the fuck up if you don't agree with the FSP, because we sure don't care about rationally discussing the successes and failures of the organization, and how it can be helped.
Also, check out the embarrassing responses to my attempt at rationally analyze advertising for NH liberty, and suggest what the most effecient methods might be. No one said "hey your maths are wrong here", or "this bits right but this bits wrong".
No, I got the standard immature reaction that anyone not sucking the dick of a NH libber must either be a lazy coward, or just shouldn't be taken seriously at all.
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More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.
No more girls like the ones dancing on the ridely report will get me there. If they are like minded thats an even bigger plus.
@fatcat - They're just trying to be optimistic. What else can you do in this situation but hope and strive for the best you can? Out of country may not be a viable solution for everyone either.
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More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.
No more girls like the ones dancing on the ridely report will get me there. If they are like minded thats an even bigger plus.
Oh, man... You can find those kind of girls at any frat or college party.
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More people will move when a Cheesecake Factory is built in New Hampshire.
No more girls like the ones dancing on the ridely report will get me there. If they are like minded thats an even bigger plus.
Oh, man... You can find those kind of girls at any frat or college party.
What about liberty minded girls?? I can find that here or even just head to the bar/club on the weekend. Be nice to find a brain to go with those jugs.
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I'm sick of all this bullshit goalpost shifting.
"Oh it doesn't matter that we didn't hit the deadline, people will move anyway." "Oh it doesn't matter that the deadline to have 20,000 signers by 2006 or disband the FSP wasn't reached."
Then what was the point of the deadline? If meeting a deadline isn't important, why have one?
I'm sure there are some people who signed the first 1000 pledge, who are still intending to move. Does this mean the goal was succeeded? The pledge was signed in 2006, thats 2 years. shit comes up, but thats nearly 30% who didn't move when they said they would. If you hit 20,000 signers, and 6,000 people don't show up after 5 years, are you going to shrug that off aswell?
Failing a deadline doesn't mean the whole project has failed, but you should at least accept the failure happened, and try to explain it, and try to improve.
I'm not surprised though, for some reason signing up to the FSP seems to make people diametrically apposed to acknowledging any form of failure.
Also, I'm not trashing anyone, I'm commenting on the failure i percieve, but every time I get the same shit. No one wants to actually talk about the problems, they just get bitchy and defensive "well what are you doing for liberty?" "it will take time to get to critical mass" "if you don't want to move thats fine, but you shouldn't put others down who are trying to do positive things"
It's like your all reading from the same script.
i.e. shut the fuck up if you don't agree with the FSP, because we sure don't care about rationally discussing the successes and failures of the organization, and how it can be helped.
Also, check out the embarrassing responses to my attempt at rationally analyze advertising for NH liberty, and suggest what the most effecient methods might be. No one said "hey your maths are wrong here", or "this bits right but this bits wrong".
No, I got the standard immature reaction that anyone not sucking the dick of a NH libber must either be a lazy coward, or just shouldn't be taken seriously at all.
I guess I didn't understand your complaints. You should state them clearly. No rational being can deny that the FSP failed to reach the 2006 deadline, but they chose to continue the way they chose to continue. What can be done? The organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.
The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.
Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.
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organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.
As far as any other projects go in america. At a snails pace.
The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.
At least you're being realistic mark.
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Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.
Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!
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I guess I didn't understand your complaints. You should state them clearly. No rational being can deny that the FSP failed to reach the 2006 deadline, but they chose to continue the way they chose to continue. What can be done? The organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.
The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.
Well thats one of the most realistic opinions I've heard from an FSP proponent.
The problem for me isn't that there are failures in certain aspects, its that the failures aren't seriously addressed by anyone most members.
"nevermind" seems to be the prevalent response.
Learning from failure is extremely important, but you can't learn if you refuse to accept them and just choose to live in a fantasy world where the "tipping point" is always round the corner,
The failures in the 2006 deadline for 20,000 could have been put into play for other deadlines.
If the deadline wasn't met, then it was unrealistic, why was it? What did we misunderstand? Are we still making the same misunderstandings? Are other deadlines unrealistic?
If people are going to say, "20,000 number doesn't matter, we could make a huge difference with only 5,000", then why isn't this shit being put into action right now?
Is the FSP just going to wait indefinitely till they hit 20,000? If having libertarians in New Hampshire as people here have suggested will make more people join, why not start a new campaign? The Next 5,000?
I'm aware some of this stuff is probably being planned, but why isn't it being done now? Maybe theres a good reason it isn't being done, but I don't ever see it being discussed in discussions such as these, just same tired old defensive bullshit.
In my opinion people are far too concerned about "supporting" each other with mindless praise, which achieves nothing but swollen egos, and not eager enough to actually shop the shit for how all this stuff is going to work. Ideology is not enough. Wanting things to work is not enough, people need to make them work.
That means really talking, criticizing, improving.
We can start the back slapping and blowjob festival once we've buried government.
As for signing up to help improve things, its exactly the attitude that constructive criticism shouldn't be addressed by an outsider that makes me think the FSP isn't a group worth joining. I want a group thats dedicated to taking every opportunity to get the most out of liberty. Being an ass to someone criticizing you might be a natural response, but its missing an opportunity to A) make an outsider warm to the group B) actually address the problem
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I guess I didn't understand your complaints. You should state them clearly. No rational being can deny that the FSP failed to reach the 2006 deadline, but they chose to continue the way they chose to continue. What can be done? The organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.
The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.
Well thats one of the most realistic opinions I've heard from an FSP proponent.
The problem for me isn't that there are failures in certain aspects, its that the failures aren't seriously addressed by anyone most members.
"nevermind" seems to be the prevalent response.
Learning from failure is extremely important, but you can't learn if you refuse to accept them and just choose to live in a fantasy world where the "tipping point" is always round the corner,
The failures in the 2006 deadline for 20,000 could have been put into play for other deadlines.
If the deadline wasn't met, then it was unrealistic, why was it? What did we misunderstand? Are we still making the same misunderstandings? Are other deadlines unrealistic?
If people are going to say, "20,000 number doesn't matter, we could make a huge difference with only 5,000", then why isn't this shit being put into action right now?
Is the FSP just going to wait indefinitely till they hit 20,000? If having libertarians in New Hampshire as people here have suggested will make more people join, why not start a new campaign? The Next 5,000?
I'm aware some of this stuff is probably being planned, but why isn't it being done now? Maybe theres a good reason, but I don't ever see it being discussed in discussions such as these, just same tired old defensive bullshit.
In my opinion people are far too concerned about "supporting" each other with mindless praise, which achieves nothing but swollen egos, and not eager enough to actually shop the shit for how all this stuff is going to work. Ideology is not enough. Wanting things to work is not enough, people need to make them work.
I wish that the problems that you address here were looked at and fixed. It might be that this is a problem inherent in a system were a Strong Man (Sorens) sets up a system and then hands that system over to a weak board of directors. It might be the decentralized nature of the participants. Either way I would like the FAP Organization to go away (this is the feeling of many signers, btw.) and it will once we reach 20,000 signers. It might stick around for a while to expedite movers, but at least we can then ignore them.
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Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.
Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!
Mark might but not the FSP. Not misleading members or being somewhat weird about the numbers game. They need a rehaul on marketing.
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Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.
Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!
Mark might but not the FSP. Not misleading members or being somewhat weird about the numbers game. They need a rehaul on marketing.
Well the FSP numbers are off by at least 2.
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Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.
Shit Mark's got this FSP marketing stuff down!
Mark might but not the FSP. Not misleading members or being somewhat weird about the numbers game. They need a rehaul on marketing.
They hired some new guy. We will see how that goes. I tried to fix the slow sign-up problem but setting up an outbound calling plan, but I was/am stifled by the lack of a libertarian phone number list and the need to sell ads to make money.
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Either way I would like the FAP Organization to go away (this is the feeling of many signers, btw.) and it will once we reach 20,000 signers. It might stick around for a while to expedite movers, but at least we can then ignore them.
The only thing the FAP does any more is the Liberty Forum and Porc Fest. They won't give that up once the goal of 20,000 signers is reached.
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I guess I didn't understand your complaints. You should state them clearly. No rational being can deny that the FSP failed to reach the 2006 deadline, but they chose to continue the way they chose to continue. What can be done? The organization that is the FSP is disorganized and weird, but the idea is working.
The FSP is a failure, it is just far less of a failure than everything else tried thus far.
Also, people don't like being corrected by an outsider. I would encourage you to sign, move and fix the problems.
Bullshit. It is only a failure when you give up. Since so many of us are still moving forward with this project and so many more are continually joining us then it is far from a failure.
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Its the goals that have been the failure. Until the project goes away no it's not a complete failure. It just hasn't been doing well. If unemployment rates and inflation keeps increasing I think FSP's advertising might be more effective. They just need some better commercials. Most commercials I hear on ftl or else where that are liberty based are really shitty in terms of quality, creativity, and information. But it mostly targets libertarians anyway.
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the goals were unrealistic but what would you expect. It isn't like this is something that has been tried anywhere before. How were they to know what would have been realistic goals to set for a effort like this?
I agree. They need better commercials. Something with sound effects and cool music.
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(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8088/protest.jpg)
Is there any way to put "I'm not in the mood for this Thread" on that sign?
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the goals were unrealistic but what would you expect. It isn't like this is something that has been tried anywhere before. How were they to know what would have been realistic goals to set for a effort like this?
I agree. They need better commercials. Something with sound effects and cool music.
Of course it was unrealistic but own up to it and change goals. Change to something more reasonable since obviously it's not working out so well atm. Avoid false advertising.
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FSP members before 2004 didn't think the goal was unrealistic.
http://www.freestateproject.org/news/releases/1000members.php
The membership numbers over the past year indicate that the project will meet its self-imposed deadline of September 2006 for the beginning of the move. The Free State Project has grown on average 25% each month; at this rate, the ultimate goal of 20,000 will be reached by the middle of 2003. As long as the membership continues to grow by at least 10% each month, the Project will reach its goal by early 2005 at the latest.
They expected exponential growth. The snowball wasn't supposed to stop at 20,000.
That is why the FSP failed. There is no snowball.
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Is there any way to put "I'm not in the mood for this Thread" on that sign?
Paint... srsly i hate that pic cuz i've seen it too many times now. try somethin new
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Is there any way to put "I'm not in the mood for this Thread" on that sign?
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2131/protest1.jpg)
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Paint... srsly i hate that pic cuz i've seen it too many times now. try somethin new
I don't remember receiving payment in return for entertaining you with pictures.
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I didnt read this whole thread, but what I think the FSP needs to hope that the membership numbers will increase exponentially as people join. The more people that join, the more other people they will each convince to join.
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I didnt read this whole thread, but what I think the FSP needs to hope that the membership numbers will increase exponentially as people join. The more people that join, the more other people they will each convince to join.
Just joining the FSP through a signup on the interweb might look like a "victory" number-wise, but all it is is just a list of people who signed something on the interweb.
I'd still like to know the number of "participants" who no longer have any intention of moving to NH.
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The FSP should declare "the pledge" over. Eliminate the counters and focus on events and encouraging people to move to NH to plug into the activist networks that already exist.
SO MANY movers have not even signed the FSP pledge. It's a losing battle to call people and ask them to sign a stupid online form. These people here and they're activists. That's the important part.
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The FSP should declare "the pledge" over. Eliminate the counters and focus on events and encouraging people to move to NH to plug into the activist networks that already exist.
SO MANY movers have not even signed the FSP pledge. It's a losing battle to call people and ask them to sign a stupid online form. These people here and they're activists. That's the important part.
Well the pledge is somewhat of a joke now. I know at least 5 people who, for a goof, signed up under false names (some multiple times) just to watch the counter go up. They have no interest in moving to NH and from what I can tell don't believe in this thing called liberty unless Obama is talking about it.
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Well the pledge is somewhat of a joke now.
Somewhat?
It's at least 38% a joke at this point. 20,000 people is not a lot to get to sign an online form in 8 years. If the counter is still around when it rolls to 10,000; I can't imagine the hoopla that will ensue over "reaching the halfway point"
Again, this isn't to say people aren't moving. They are. The freekeene forums has ballooned with new local activists and I was around when 8 people was a big Social Sunday, and nobody but Ian would do anything. Now we're at 35ish and have the Mike Barskey's taking the reigns with things like FreeKeene Fest and turning into far far more than it was before.
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I'd rather move to Wyoming than NH.
Free State Wyoming ftw!
/twocents
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Free state Zug is more like it. Zug Switzerland that is. I think the highest tax bracket has to pay 8% income taxes or something like that.
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Is there any way to put "I'm not in the mood for this Thread" on that sign?
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2131/protest1.jpg)
I luv you right now.
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The way I see it, I don't expect people to adopt the liberty mindset, but I have this compulsive need to talk to everyone about it. Hopefully I can convince a few. I do what I can when I can. I haven't signed up for FSP because I don't know if I can make the move. I probably will at some point, but it might be 20 years. I have great hopes and tiny expectations. That way when I see Ron Paul get double digit votes in some primaries I get really happy. Granted Ron Paul is not a hardcore libertarian/voluntaryist (he only seems like it when compared to the rest of Congress) but ever since he ran, it seems there are a lot more people aware of the term libertarian and a lot of people deciding to call themselves libertarian. Hopefully a couple of them will eventually actually understand what the term means, and decide they still like it.
I only read the first few posts, so you can take this for what its worth.
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The organization "Free State Project" aside, the migration project to NH is the best idea out there that is feasible today. I think that once people think it through to an end, they will see that, once they disregard arguments about goals, timelines, perceived progress/failures. Perhaps I am not as creative as some of you, but I see the FSP, and the private space race as the only chance free people might have. Obviously, the world is going to change, and maybe there will be a better option at some point in the future. I think the political migration concept makes sense. I personally agree with the FSP voters choice in selecting NH. As it is today, and can be soon, it's unlike anything that's ever been tried before.
I know of three people who have moved to NH without announcement. They pledged to move with the FSP, but after a while believed it would be beneficial to the effort, and preferable to them personally, to not be associated with the FSP, and any social groups that have formed around it so far. I know two others that have not pledged, who plan on moving at some yet to be determined time, to partake in the efforts of the FSP, but without pledging.
A couple of points..
1, The effort to start the project has begun, but if you understand the strategy the FSP was inspired by, you'd know that the project doesn't start until possibly 5 years after the 20,000th person pledges to move with everyone else. Anything the current residents, or early movers, do before then is just icing, and hopefully lessons, for the pledgers to expand on.
2, I don't care much for politics. I hear many anarchists, or voluntaryists (or whatever they choose to be called), speak as though pursuing politics is a waste of time. I would agree with this, outside of NH. The idea behind the political migration is to change the rules that normally apply, and not be in the vast, easily ignored, minority. Those who believe they know that politics is universally futile aren't taking into consideration that this is something new, and they really don't have anything to compare it to (if you disagree, make sure you include things like cell phones, and the internet, in your consideration.). It may not be apparent today (nhliberty.org/), but again, the idea is that things can be different if 20,000 people of like mind move into a low population area.... Let it begin first before giving up on it. At least let it begin before claiming it didn't work.
3, FSP doesn't have sole dibs on NH. If you think you have a better plan for a migration project aimed at liberty, please start it! I for one, will support it. If you do, please also target NH. I consider the "First 1,000" a different migration project, and I think it would have helped keep confusion to a minimum if it were treated as such. If you're a fellow anarchist, and can't stand having to explain things to the ridiculous minarchists all the time, please start a "Free Terra Project", and target NH. I'll support the effort! If you're a statist, and you want to shrink government to some level where it magically becomes legit somehow... well, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, I guess, as long as you're not the larger enemy... Start the Libertarian? State Project, and I'd support it.
If tomorrow there was an announcement of some oddly familiar looking effort to move people who are looking for a region with the best potential for freedom, from say Siberia, and they voted that it will be the White Mountains, the better for all of us it would be. It wouldn't weaken the FSP. I would think it would only appear to validate the FSP's selection of NH, and probably credit FTL, NHLA, Ridley, OTN, etc.. Bring on the Free Keene/Grafton/Town/County/State Projects.
I wanted to mention that the reason I opened this thread is because I was curious to see if, like a couple people I know, this was someone who was no longer affiliated with the FSP, but still an activist (or, at least a "Small Government Pledge" type), and still moving to NH for liberty. I'm not claiming that the missing 276 have all made this choice, but I do know three of them that have.
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Free state Zug is more like it. Zug Switzerland that is. I think the highest tax bracket has to pay 8% income taxes or something like that.
Personal income tax is 7,800 swiss francs per 150,000 francs(thats just under 140,000 dollars), i.e 5 PERCENT INCOME TAX
Corporate income tax is 11,000 per 160,000 francs i.e 6.8%
Source (http://www.zug.ch/behoerden/volkswirtschaftsdirektion/economic-promotion/economy-11/economy-12/intercantonal-tax-comparison/at_download/file)
that was the 2008 rates.
Now theres still a sales tax and federal tax, but even with them it comes under 15,000 per 150,000, around 15% total tax burden, although its hard to work out the total burden if you aren't fluid in german because most of the tax literature tends to be in german.
If you're a high earner in America, you pay nearly the entire Swiss tax burden on federal income tax alone.
Also Capital tax is extremely low in switzerland, 0.002%! Source (http://www.internationaltaxreview.com/?Page=10&PUBID=35&ISS=23172&SID=668647&TYPE=20)
Couple the financial freedom (low tax, no minimum wage), with all the personal freedoms, euthanasia, prostitution, drugs, I can't see how any serious libertarian could say "well that sounds good but I don't want to move to another country".
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The organization "Free State Project" aside, the migration project to NH is the best idea out there that is feasible today. I think that once people think it through to an end, they will see that, once they disregard arguments about goals, timelines, perceived progress/failures.
Yeah, why worry about something like progress or failure.
Care to back up what you say? Why the hell is "NH the best idea out there that is feasible today"?
I'm not shilling for people to move to Zug, personally I think mass migration would more likely build up resentment within the local populace, especially if it was done by the kind of self-righteous assholes in the NH FSP. Is NH good because its small so it will be easier for a small number of libertarians to make a difference?
Well Zug has a population of 100,000, less than 10% of the population of NH. That means 1,000 people in Zug is 1% of the population, but 1,000 in NH is barely 0.01%. Wouldn't this make Zug 10 times better population wise? especially considering Swiss Cantons have far more sovereignty than US states.
So what exactly is it about NH that makes it the best place for liberty? Besides that theres already a project running (which isn't a reason to continue with a worse choice), and you won't have to leave America to do it?
Especially considering the rampaging Federal government. The fed has shown no regard for State sovereignty anywhere it actually mattered. Look at cannabis distributory raids in California.
So if I don't want a project to get people to move to Switzerland? What has this got to do with anything?
Well the whole point is that FSP proponents tend to refuse to acknowledge facts as important. All the evidence points to Zug being freer than New Hampshire, yet most FSPers I've talked to happily say "well you should go for that but its not for me", but in the next breath they'll claim "FSP is the only hope for liberty in our lifetimes", and anyone who criticizes the FSP gets the tired old "WELL WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO THEN?!?! HUH!?!" response. Well I'm moving to a place where I can actually be more free than a bunch of cultists in NH, but no one wants to hear anyone pissing on their happy little club.
Cut the hero bullshit. You don't care about getting the most possible freedom. You care about getting the most possible freedom if it means staying in America. Either that or you think Zug actually isn't freer than NH, which I have seen no credible argument to support.
Alot of it comes from the ridiculous attitude that leads to a pyramid scheme of misleading. People move across the country, thats a big investment. If they accept the failings of the FSP, then its less likely for other people are less likely to join, which would make their sacrifice less likely to matter.
Also lots of people have built up FSP NH as the only hope for freedom, so its plain human condition that its too hard to accept any facts that dispute this.
I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.
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Well the pledge is somewhat of a joke now.
Somewhat?
It's at least 38% a joke at this point. 20,000 people is not a lot to get to sign an online form in 8 years. If the counter is still around when it rolls to 10,000; I can't imagine the hoopla that will ensue over "reaching the halfway point"
Again, this isn't to say people aren't moving. They are. The freekeene forums has ballooned with new local activists and I was around when 8 people was a big Social Sunday, and nobody but Ian would do anything. Now we're at 35ish and have the Mike Barskey's taking the reigns with things like FreeKeene Fest and turning into far far more than it was before.
You know what else is a joke?
Thinking free staters can take over Keene.
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I'd rather move to Wyoming than NH.
Free State Wyoming ftw!
/twocents
I wouldn't. And I carry around a FSW silver coin.
(http://www.javelinpress.com/images/fsw_coin_rev_javelin.jpg)
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I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.
Maybe, we will see.
I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).
If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.
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Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.
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Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.
Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
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Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.
Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
Maybe he is on some things, but not at running an organization. Him being the chair of the FSP BOD has been a disaster.
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I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.
Maybe, we will see.
I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).
If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.
Sure, I understand there are personal reasons. I'm not criticizing anyone who have good reasons not to move to a certain place.
Moving country is definitely a bigger step than moving state, and learning a new language is a big investment (though most swiss people speak english).
I hear good things about liberty in Costa Rica, but I'd probably never move there (unless there were absolutely no alternatives) because of the climate and the language barrier.
I've said many times that New Hampshire is probably one of the best places to be in America in terms of liberty, especially given the active liberty movement, but its certainly not the only opportunity, as many people here say, and in my opinion its not even the best opportunity, as many other people say.
Who I am criticizing is the hard-core FSP members who treat anyone who isn't in favor of the NH FSP as either being too lazy to do anything, or not caring about liberty enough, when there are plenty of good alternatives on the table.
All the grand standing and ego stroking is extremely off putting. If I saw more good things coming from the movement, and a more positive and realistic attitude to addressing problems, rather than delusion and derision, I'd be far more inclined to donate to the FSP, as I have done in the past.
But when people won't seriously address pretty much any problem with the FSP, and treat any criticism like some fucking battle, instead of a chance to work out whats best; donating money to the FSP just seems like a waste of money. I want the FSP to work, I want any liberty movement to work, but I don't want to pay money for a bunch of people to pat each other on the back and bury their heads in the sand.
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I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).
a. Everyone speaks English over there too. It wouldn't be too much of a problem
b. That's the one big drawback about Switzerland, they're pretty uptight about their borders and foreigners moving to their delicate slice of heaven.
c. I'm a freelance 3D artist and a blacksmith (in training) so I can work anywhere. My wife just needs a few big museums or colleges. She's an archeological anthropologist.
That said, I probably won't move to Zug either (even though I have family in Swizterland). If you're an American citizen working in another country, our great freedom-loving nation will still charge you income tax. The only way to avoid it is to renounce your citizenship. Considering I'm on the terrorist watch-list, if I renounce my citizenship, I don't think I'd ever see my family again. So until all of that changes, I'm stuck here...in the land of the free.
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Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.
Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
Maybe he is on some things, but not at running an organization. Him being the chair of the FSP BOD has been a disaster.
I wouldn't know. As I have said I think that there are some big problems with how the FSP is run. That is why I have been working on an outbound calling program to reach the 20,000 mark. Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
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Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.
Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
Maybe he is on some things, but not at running an organization. Him being the chair of the FSP BOD has been a disaster.
I wouldn't know. As I have said I think that there are some big problems with how the FSP is run. That is why I have been working on an outbound calling program to reach the 20,000 mark. Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
But you can't get a calling list, right?
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Americans coming into Zug would be far more easy to get rid of than Americans moving into NH.
I don't think that the NH FSP is the only answer. But I do think that consentrating together is the answer. I think multiple areas is a fine idea. Move to Wyoming, Zug or Costa Rica if you think that is better. Help the seasteaders if you want, but I don't expect anything with that for at least several years. People can be in NH working on things and building workable ideas by the time the seasteaders have any firm plans. You could go join them after helping out in some place like NH or Wyoming. You pretty much have to live on land for now, so pick a good place.
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
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On the whole, the free state project fails because of one thing, I think: this strange demand that you sign up. I would never do it just because the whole idea of joining a 'group' to support 'freedom' is at its core an incorrect notion. I am an independent, free thinking individual; I do not subscribe to the joining of any, ANY, group in the name of freedom. I subscribe to direct action on your ideals. Joining a group to simply label yourself such a thing is sort of sophomoric and of the old 'red team--blue team' mind set.
I am a liberty activist; I am not moving to NH because my partner does not want to even consider it. It's an automatic kind of thing, that strong of a rejection of an idea within a committed relationship. You can't disregard it.
I most certainly would entertain the notion of moving to NH if I could. But if I did, I would never, EVER, join the FSP.
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Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
Isn't that kinda like saying once Sept. 2006 came up the FSP leadership became irrelevant?
I think they will just "change the rules" again so they don't have to go away.
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.
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Once the 20,000 mark is reached the FSP leadership becomes irrelevant.
Isn't that kinda like saying once Sept. 2006 came up the FSP leadership became irrelevant?
I think they will just "change the rules" again so they don't have to go away.
I hadn't thought of that possibility, but they will still have the job of getting signers to move. Hopefully that will keep them busy. I know Irena and Varrin quite well and they don't seem like the type to break the rules in that way.
When the 2006 deadline was reached and that failure had occurred and you had 8000, 100s of movers, were beginning to see progress and you were in charge; what would you have done?
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WHY, why do you guys keep arguing about the numbers? It's a canard. Reject the COLLECTIVE that is the FSP.
As Ian always says, "I'm not part of your WE."
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.
If you are going to do it in an English speaking country then a US state is the only way you can do it, especially is you are going to market it to US citizens. States are sovereign they control their municipalities. If Grafton decides to free their citizens from taxes and shut down the government school program, the state will just come in and revoke their charter and incorporate them into Enfield. If you want to provide any real freedom from the political apparatus you need a state.
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You know what else is a joke?
Thinking free staters can take over Keene.
Citizens and officials of Keene are aware of the Activist's presence and are beginning to realize they aren't leaving. It's less and less looking to them like "The Mickey Mouse Club" that will fizzle out in a year or so.
The truth is, I'm already safer from government in Keene because of the activists. Unlike other places in NH, Keene police won't bother anyone open carrying. They won't bother anyone copwatching. They still, unfortunately, bother people for recording inside public buildings, but we'll make ground on that too.
If something in the country is going to change for liberty, it'll happen in Keene first. Is it likely, I don't know, but at least people are taking a chance on it.
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I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.
Maybe, we will see.
I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).
If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.
Sure, I understand there are personal reasons. I'm not criticizing anyone who have good reasons not to move to a certain place.
Moving country is definitely a bigger step than moving state, and learning a new language is a big investment (though most swiss people speak english).
I hear good things about liberty in Costa Rica, but I'd probably never move there (unless there were absolutely no alternatives) because of the climate and the language barrier.
I've said many times that New Hampshire is probably one of the best places to be in America in terms of liberty, especially given the active liberty movement, but its certainly not the only opportunity, as many people here say, and in my opinion its not even the best opportunity, as many other people say.
Who I am criticizing is the hard-core FSP members who treat anyone who isn't in favor of the NH FSP as either being too lazy to do anything, or not caring about liberty enough, when there are plenty of good alternatives on the table.
All the grand standing and ego stroking is extremely off putting. If I saw more good things coming from the movement, and a more positive and realistic attitude to addressing problems, rather than delusion and derision, I'd be far more inclined to donate to the FSP, as I have done in the past.
But when people won't seriously address pretty much any problem with the FSP, and treat any criticism like some fucking battle, instead of a chance to work out whats best; donating money to the FSP just seems like a waste of money. I want the FSP to work, I want any liberty movement to work, but I don't want to pay money for a bunch of people to pat each other on the back and bury their heads in the sand.
Three issues here
1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
3) Looking at faults with the FSP. If the FSP is a bus (to move people to the state), as they tend to claim, then people probably don't want to stop and spend the time that it is going to take to get the bus running efficiently. They just want to get the bus to move people to NH so that they can abandon it. I certainly don't care what is wrong with the FSP organization, I just want people to sign-up so that I don't have think about the FSP anymore and we can get about the task of making a Freer State
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The problem with the argument for a geopolitical movement is the fact that the majority of all political movements come after the resultant change was being contemplated by powers that be or that some charismatic politicians/leaders made some significant push in a given direction. Thus, the geopolitical movement itself can't always be supposed in terms of purely grassroots maneuvering. Rather, it can be seen as both a description of underlying change already taking place and one that gives credence for the change (an incentive for leaders to go that direction in their thinking and acting). This is obvious in terms of the adoption of [classical] liberal values in Europe, especially. Moving from thinkers in Britain, outward to continental Europe (but there were others prior such as the Spanish Scholastics, and French influened thinkers like Cantillion that laid the bedrock for such a shift).
So, what that means for me is this: where are our Spanish Scholastics? Where is our Cantillion (or even Turgot)? If the ideas aren't there to stir the statesman and peasant alike, then the movement is doomed to fail, imho.
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On the whole, the free state project fails because of one thing, I think: this strange demand that you sign up. I would never do it just because the whole idea of joining a 'group' to support 'freedom' is at its core an incorrect notion. I am an independent, free thinking individual; I do not subscribe to the joining of any, ANY, group in the name of freedom. I subscribe to direct action on your ideals. Joining a group to simply label yourself such a thing is sort of sophomoric and of the old 'red team--blue team' mind set.
I am a liberty activist; I am not moving to NH because my partner does not want to even consider it. It's an automatic kind of thing, that strong of a rejection of an idea within a committed relationship. You can't disregard it.
I most certainly would entertain the notion of moving to NH if I could. But if I did, I would never, EVER, join the FSP.
I think you miss the point of signing up with the FSP. People want to move where there is a concentration of other liberty activists. Signing lets others considering the move know that there are more people intending to move also, thus encouraging more people to move. Once in NH, you don't have to be a part of the FSP. You are then just a liberty activist living in NH.
It is important to show progress to encourage others to also move.
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WHY, why do you guys keep arguing about the numbers? It's a canard. Reject the COLLECTIVE that is the FSP.
As Ian always says, "I'm not part of your WE."
Thank God for that too. You sound like another one of the useless eaters out there.
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I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.
Maybe, we will see.
I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).
If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.
Sure, I understand there are personal reasons. I'm not criticizing anyone who have good reasons not to move to a certain place.
Moving country is definitely a bigger step than moving state, and learning a new language is a big investment (though most swiss people speak english).
I hear good things about liberty in Costa Rica, but I'd probably never move there (unless there were absolutely no alternatives) because of the climate and the language barrier.
I've said many times that New Hampshire is probably one of the best places to be in America in terms of liberty, especially given the active liberty movement, but its certainly not the only opportunity, as many people here say, and in my opinion its not even the best opportunity, as many other people say.
Who I am criticizing is the hard-core FSP members who treat anyone who isn't in favor of the NH FSP as either being too lazy to do anything, or not caring about liberty enough, when there are plenty of good alternatives on the table.
All the grand standing and ego stroking is extremely off putting. If I saw more good things coming from the movement, and a more positive and realistic attitude to addressing problems, rather than delusion and derision, I'd be far more inclined to donate to the FSP, as I have done in the past.
But when people won't seriously address pretty much any problem with the FSP, and treat any criticism like some fucking battle, instead of a chance to work out whats best; donating money to the FSP just seems like a waste of money. I want the FSP to work, I want any liberty movement to work, but I don't want to pay money for a bunch of people to pat each other on the back and bury their heads in the sand.
Three issues here
1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
3) Looking at faults with the FSP. If the FSP is a bus (to move people to the state), as they tend to claim, then people probably don't want to stop and spend the time that it is going to take to get the bus running efficiently. They just want to get the bus to move people to NH so that they can abandon it. I certainly don't care what is wrong with the FSP organization, I just want people to sign-up so that I don't have think about the FSP anymore and we can get about the task of making a Freer State
Very special, Mark. I'm here in the NH and won't go anywhere, so the rest are just foolin themselves. Fatcat, enjoy your life wherever you are, too bad you were never part of anything important. Though, I'm sure you have a heartily response or whatever...
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[youtube=425,350]-W6cT3Tvu9g[/youtube].
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If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.
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If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.
Completely agree, I would too. In a heartbeat.
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When the 2006 deadline was reached and that failure had occurred and you had 8000, 100s of movers, were beginning to see progress and you were in charge; what would you have done?
I would have done what Jason Sorens said would most likely be done. Reset the counter, change the SOI, and ask people who are still interested to sign up again. I would probably open it up to people already living in NH if I wanted to keep the 20,000 crap.
I think setting a threshold for the move, and deadlines are really bad ideas. The FSP has become "move to NH to fight for liberty ASAP", which is fine, but they need to dump the silly 20,000 goal. If they want to keep track of something, it should be movers, or "participants" in NH.
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All kidding aside, I am not against FSP at all. Go for it. I believe wholly in moving somewhere to make a new life and in your freedom to do that. There are a lot of liberty-minded people everywhere that believe in making a stand where they are, and I'm all for that, too. The more liberty lovers, the better. I don't care where they live. In fact, I plan on looking into starting a free county project where I am moving.
This creepy attitude that SOME of you movers have that is so snobby, so superior to others--it's not doing you any favors. Your name calling, snide remarks, and your baseless judgment show me exactly what kind of people are moving to NH as part of the FSP. To those folks I say "no thanks" --your idealized cult of FSP is the best reason for not joining the FSP, even if I did move to NH. Also, the people who firmly believe that there is NO OTHER PLACE/WAY to be active and be liberty activists, well that is a defeatist attitude, and I can tell you that I've had plenty of opportunity to flex my freedom of speech, right to assembly, and to participate in civil disobedience whenever I wanted where I live now. Your argument back to that is always, "but nothing happens where you are! You can change stuff in NH." To that I say...maybe. Maybe I can change stuff where I am, too. If the FSP is about concentrating people in one spot to be liberty activists, they may be thinking on too small a scale. An idea as compelling as liberty and freedom is like manure--if you put it all in one place, you just get a big stinky pile. If you spread it around, stuff grows.
Good luck in your efforts, FSPers. I love FTL and I will support the show, which is great entertainment and thought-provoking. I wouldn't even know about the FSP if I didn't listen to the show...what does that tell you? Conversely, I think that there might be more people that did move to NH that didn't sign up with the FSP because of the reasons I gave, so maybe the real point here is, to address fatcat...FSP isn't really a failure. People actually moved to NH. That's pretty amazing, considering. Who cares about the numbers? People actually moved (which is a pain in the ass at any time). That's incredible! That's no fluke. And fatcat, you and I can rest assured that those folks are part of 'something special.' Because if we don't move to NH, we're just chopped liver, spinning our wheels, going nowhere, useless eaters...
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.
If you are going to do it in an English speaking country then a US state is the only way you can do it, especially is you are going to market it to US citizens. States are sovereign they control their municipalities.
I'm not so sure states are sovereign. Federal rules and laws still apply, and that is where many of the problems are.
Do you really think the feds wouldn't just step in?
If Grafton decides to free their citizens from taxes and shut down the government school program, the state will just come in and revoke their charter and incorporate them into Enfield.
First, I think even Grafton is too big to try and "take over".
Grafton doesn't have any government schools, so no government school program would be shut down. At most, it would involve pulling out of the Mascoma Valley school district. But all you really need to do is convince everyone not to send their kids to the government school. The last time I checked, the way the local school tax was calculated was based on the number of students a town has attending public schools. I'm not sure about the state school tax.
You could also offer tax abatement to everyone that doesn't use the public school system. That would leave the people using the system to pay for it.
Is there precedence for the state of NH ever revoking the charter of a town that is hundreds of years old?
If you want to provide any real freedom from the political apparatus you need a state
So, what is your current estimate of how long it will take to get "real freedom" at the state level?
Also, to get any real freedom at the state level, you need to secede. GLWT.
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1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
You see a lot of activity because that is where you are, and the people you hang out with. The easiest place for a US citizen to get involved is where they are right now.
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
I have asked and haven't heard how NH is viable.
The plan seems to be "move to NH ASAP, and see what happens!".
Explain to me how you plan on getting liberty/freedom in NH.
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1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
You see a lot of activity because that is where you are, and the people you hang out with. The easiest place for a US citizen to get involved is where they are right now.
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
I have asked and haven't heard how NH is viable.
The plan seems to be "move to NH ASAP, and see what happens!".
Explain to me how you plan on getting liberty/freedom in NH.
We don't. We're actually going to lock ourselves in a Walmart and taunt the feds til they burn the building down with us inside.
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All kidding aside, I am not against FSP at all. Go for it. I believe wholly in moving somewhere to make a new life and in your freedom to do that. There are a lot of liberty-minded people everywhere that believe in making a stand where they are, and I'm all for that, too. The more liberty lovers, the better. I don't care where they live. In fact, I plan on looking into starting a free county project where I am moving.
This creepy attitude that SOME of you movers have that is so snobby, so superior to others--it's not doing you any favors. Your name calling, snide remarks, and your baseless judgment show me exactly what kind of people are moving to NH as part of the FSP. To those folks I say "no thanks" --your idealized cult of FSP is the best reason for not joining the FSP, even if I did move to NH. Also, the people who firmly believe that there is NO OTHER PLACE/WAY to be active and be liberty activists, well that is a defeatist attitude, and I can tell you that I've had plenty of opportunity to flex my freedom of speech, right to assembly, and to participate in civil disobedience whenever I wanted where I live now. Your argument back to that is always, "but nothing happens where you are! You can change stuff in NH." To that I say...maybe. Maybe I can change stuff where I am, too. If the FSP is about concentrating people in one spot to be liberty activists, they may be thinking on too small a scale. An idea as compelling as liberty and freedom is like manure--if you put it all in one place, you just get a big stinky pile. If you spread it around, stuff grows.
Good luck in your efforts, FSPers. I love FTL and I will support the show, which is great entertainment and thought-provoking. I wouldn't even know about the FSP if I didn't listen to the show...what does that tell you? Conversely, I think that there might be more people that did move to NH that didn't sign up with the FSP because of the reasons I gave, so maybe the real point here is, to address fatcat...FSP isn't really a failure. People actually moved to NH. That's pretty amazing, considering. Who cares about the numbers? People actually moved (which is a pain in the ass at any time). That's incredible! That's no fluke. And fatcat, you and I can rest assured that those folks are part of 'something special.' Because if we don't move to NH, we're just chopped liver, spinning our wheels, going nowhere, useless eaters...
You spend a lot of time just pissing and moaning.
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Colorado is as free if not more than NH, I've heard Mark and Ian say that NH has recently been named the freest state in the union. True but what they don't say is it tied with Colorado.
Open carry? Check
Shall issue? Check
Relatively low taxes? Check
Several unincorporated municipalities? Check
Pot legal in Denver? Check
A libertarian streak that runs through CO the size of NH? Check
Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.
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Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.
Just hog tie and ship off all the bureacrauts elsewhere
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If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.
Everyone speaks English in Switzerland.
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When the 2006 deadline was reached and that failure had occurred and you had 8000, 100s of movers, were beginning to see progress and you were in charge; what would you have done?
I would have done what Jason Sorens said would most likely be done. Reset the counter, change the SOI, and ask people who are still interested to sign up again. I would probably open it up to people already living in NH if I wanted to keep the 20,000 crap.
I think setting a threshold for the move, and deadlines are really bad ideas. The FSP has become "move to NH to fight for liberty ASAP", which is fine, but they need to dump the silly 20,000 goal. If they want to keep track of something, it should be movers, or "participants" in NH.
I concur, but I do think getting rid of the 20k goal will be yet another failure for the organization in what is becoming a disturbing chain of failures. So, that is why I just want to quick hit the 20k goal and move on to getting people to get their butts here.
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If I had the money, and knew either French, German, or Italian I'd move to Switzerland in a heartbeat. Switzerland has historically been one of the most stable countries in Europe, and probably the most friendliest to those who have money.
Everyone speaks English in Switzerland.
Still not my country. I have no reason to expect that.
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
If it is about concentration, then a state is too big of an area.
If you are going to do it in an English speaking country then a US state is the only way you can do it, especially is you are going to market it to US citizens. States are sovereign they control their municipalities.
I'm not so sure states are sovereign. Federal rules and laws still apply, and that is where many of the problems are.
Do you really think the feds wouldn't just step in?
States may not be be sovereign in reality today, but they are supposed to be, there is lots of law on the side of state sovereignty. So, I would like to see what would happen if one of them tried. I don't know what the Fed would do, but I would hope that they wouldn't just turn guns on peaceful people.
If Grafton decides to free their citizens from taxes and shut down the government school program, the state will just come in and revoke their charter and incorporate them into Enfield.
First, I think even Grafton is too big to try and "take over".
Grafton doesn't have any government schools, so no government school program would be shut down. At most, it would involve pulling out of the Mascoma Valley school district. But all you really need to do is convince everyone not to send their kids to the government school. The last time I checked, the way the local school tax was calculated was based on the number of students a town has attending public schools. I'm not sure about the state school tax.
You could also offer tax abatement to everyone that doesn't use the public school system. That would leave the people using the system to pay for it.
Is there precedence for the state of NH ever revoking the charter of a town that is hundreds of years old?
It is my understanding that Grafton is largely taken over. Porcupines are all in the govt there.
I figured they didn't have a high school, but wasn't sure what schools they may or may not have had, that is why I said program I figured that paying for the kids schooling was covered by the word program.
I have thought about the abatement idea, but I bet the town could be sued for it, and if someone has a "special ed" kid, everyone is screwed. I think people with kids would be best convinced by a more surreptitious pay off and that special ed parents just need to be given a big check to leave town.
I bet there isn't precedent, nor is there likely precedent for a town telling parents they ain't payin for schoolin no more.
If you want to provide any real freedom from the political apparatus you need a state
So, what is your current estimate of how long it will take to get "real freedom" at the state level?
Also, to get any real freedom at the state level, you need to secede. GLWT.
Would you have asked Louis and Clark what their estimate was of how long it would take them to find the "West"? This is uncharted territory. I will tell you that I think in 5 years we will begin to see some onerous laws being repealed. I consider dismantling the nanny state a life's work and one well worth undertaking.
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Colorado is as free if not more than NH, I've heard Mark and Ian say that NH has recently been named the freest state in the union. True but what they don't say is it tied with Colorado.
Open carry? Check
Shall issue? Check
Relatively low taxes? Check
Several unincorporated municipalities? Check
Pot legal in Denver? Check
A libertarian streak that runs through CO the size of NH? Check
Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.
We did say one time on the show that NH, Colorado, and South Dakota were a virtual tie. I don't know that I would move if I were in Colorado or SD. I think Florida got short shrift in the study, they have tourists pay most of their taxes. But what advice do you have for libertarians living in Mass., VT, NY, NJ, Conn., and RI?
If NH is just as free as Colorado, why is it retarded to move here for freedom? Is there any real practical difference between the amount of money and time it takes to move from Cali to NH than from Cali to Colorado?
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1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
You see a lot of activity because that is where you are, and the people you hang out with. The easiest place for a US citizen to get involved is where they are right now.
I see activity here because I am here AND there is activity to see. I was in Sarasota, Fla. (one of the lowest tax burdens in the US) and I saw crapola. I suspect that is what you see where you are and what most libertarians see where they are.
2) Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH. I have asked people that disagree with me and not heard a single answer that sounds remotely close to viable.
I have asked and haven't heard how NH is viable.
The plan seems to be "move to NH ASAP, and see what happens!".
Explain to me how you plan on getting liberty/freedom in NH.
NH is viable because people are working to change things here to shrink/dissolve the govt. I don't really hear of that happening too many other places and the ones I do, I don't see it on the scale that I see it here. You don't think 6 State House members shows viablity?
That is the plan. It is a decentralized project. I encourage you to attempt to rally libertarians to join your centrally planned project to take over some place :). That will go about as well as the Free Wyoming Project.
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Colorado is as free if not more than NH, I've heard Mark and Ian say that NH has recently been named the freest state in the union. True but what they don't say is it tied with Colorado.
Open carry? Check
Shall issue? Check
Relatively low taxes? Check
Several unincorporated municipalities? Check
Pot legal in Denver? Check
A libertarian streak that runs through CO the size of NH? Check
Also, moving to the east coast for freedom is fucking retarded.
We did say one time on the show that NH, Colorado, and South Dakota were a virtual tie. I don't know that I would move if I were in Colorado or SD. I think Florida got short shrift in the study, they have tourists pay most of their taxes. But what advice do you have for libertarians living in Mass., VT, NY, NJ, Conn., and RI?
If NH is just as free as Colorado, why is it retarded to move here for freedom? Is there any real practical difference between the amount of money and time it takes to move from Cali to NH than from Cali to Colorado?
This would be my main reason for moving to NH from NY. Granted, CO and SD have just as much freedom, but if I wanted to live in 50 acres by myself and no socialize with anyone, I'd just do that here in NY. Yes, still want to live on acreage, but I like what I'm seeing from the community spirit in NH. I'm just not thrilled about some of the actions of the free staters, especially the younger ones. This may end up driving me away in the end, along with other people.
I guess it comes down to what you are looking to achieve in your fight for liberty. Are you looking to stand up to the government, willing to go to jail if need be? Then you better have a good bit of help behind you, NH is your place. If you are just looking to get out of a socialist state into a less socialist state, then NH, CO, and SD are all good choices. Just keep in mind, if you get in trouble, CO and SD probably don't have people as willing to help as NH would.
I'm still torn right now, but I have at least a couple of years before I really can decide anyways. I'm slowly liking what I'm seeing in NH. The whole Sam in jail episode kinda pushed me away a little bit.
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I will admit I haven't read every single comment in this thread. But has anyone pointed out that there are possibly FSP movers who simply don't want to be identified. They want to live in a freer state but aren't willing to have a target placed on them by being a FSP member. How many silent movers do you think might have slipped into the state? These people will donate and vote. They might use subtle forms of influence feeling that the antics of some FSP members might actually do more harm than good.
In any of my discussions about moving I have never been motivated to be a FSP member. My family would move in quietly and I would most likely get involved in local politics but never identify myself as a FSP member. We would increase the numbers of Libertarian leaning individuals in the state but we wouldn't be adding to the known number of FSP movers. I might even drop being involved in the Libertarian party and become a secret Libertarian in one of the majority parties.
I just wonder about such possibilities. It seems likely to me that there are way more movers than have chosen to be identified as FSP members.
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
Costa Rica probably.
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
Costa Rica probably.
No, those aren't activists, they're just all the Libertarians with money. :-P
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
Costa Rica probably.
I thought that was just a retirement community for ex CIA and FBI agents.
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Where else is there a higher concentration of liberty activists than NH?
Costa Rica probably.
No, those aren't activists, they're just all the Libertarians with money. :-P
Well, I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
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I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
You don't think we need both?
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I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
You don't think we need both?
No. A lot more would get accomplished with people spending money in the right places.
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I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
You don't think we need both?
No. A lot more would get accomplished with people spending money in the right places.
How do we figure out where the right places are?
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Sam's not poor.
Neither am I, and they might put me in jail.
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Very special, Mark. I'm here in the NH and won't go anywhere, so the rest are just foolin themselves. Fatcat, enjoy your life wherever you are, too bad you were never part of anything important. Though, I'm sure you have a heartily response or whatever...
yeah, FSP supporters don't have a bad attitude.
Rebel sums up the two worst points perfectly.
1. Anyone who isn't involved or planning to be involved in the NH liberty movement doesn't care about liberty and isn't going to do anything to help liberty.
2. Rejecting any alternate/opposing views on liberty regardless of what they are and what reasons are behind them, and not involving in any actual debate about the issues bar engaging in condescending ego driven bullshit.
As far as Marks comments go
I certainly don't care what is wrong with the FSP organization, I just want people to sign-up so that I don't have think about the FSP anymore and we can get about the task of making a Freer State
So even though the whole point of the Free State Project is to get libertarians to NH to improve liberty, but you don't care how effective the FSP is at getting libertarians to NH?
Does not compute.
I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH.
Are you disputing that Zug, Switzerland is more free than NH, USA?
How is it wasting my time to want to spend the next 5 years of my place in somewhere I can be free, rather than spending the next 5 years of my life somewhere that is less free, and probably will become less free during those 5 years. The Seat Belt bill being rejected is a ludicrous claim of success. It has been rejected many times before the FSP ever started, and as memory serves the recent vote for seatbelts came as close to succeeding as it has for a long time.
Zug has been getting freer for the past 10 years (taxes down, drug laws more liberal). Why is it a waste of time for a Libertarian to move somewhere they can have more liberty? If there were 20,000 people in North Korea starting a FSP would I be wasting my time by not joining there?
While I'm happy to accept that NH is a fine choice of habitat if you don't want to leave the US, apparently you and people like Rebel aren't happy to accept there are any other possibilities that aren't a "waste of time", no matter what the reality is, and are condescending pricks while your doing it.
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I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
You don't think we need both?
No. A lot more would get accomplished with people spending money in the right places.
How do we figure out where the right places are?
You ask too many questions.
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Sam's not poor.
Why not?
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The seat belt bill would have passed if it weren't for the efforts of Free Staters. Liberty Alliance did a lot of work in order to put the pressure on a couple of the state senators.
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I guess I consider people with money to be the real activists. Not poor people getting locked up in jail for fun.
You don't think we need both?
No. A lot more would get accomplished with people spending money in the right places.
How do we figure out where the right places are?
You ask too many questions.
:?
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Very special, Mark. I'm here in the NH and won't go anywhere, so the rest are just foolin themselves. Fatcat, enjoy your life wherever you are, too bad you were never part of anything important. Though, I'm sure you have a heartily response or whatever...
yeah, FSP supporters don't have a bad attitude.
Rebel sums up the two worst points perfectly.
1. Anyone who isn't involved or planning to be involved in the NH liberty movement doesn't care about liberty and isn't going to do anything to help liberty.
2. Rejecting any alternate/opposing views on liberty regardless of what they are and what reasons are behind them, and not involving in any actual debate about the issues bar engaging in condescending ego driven bullshit.
As far as Marks comments go
I certainly don't care what is wrong with the FSP organization, I just want people to sign-up so that I don't have think about the FSP anymore and we can get about the task of making a Freer State
So even though the whole point of the Free State Project is to get libertarians to NH to improve liberty, but you don't care how effective the FSP is at getting libertarians to NH?
Does not compute.
My experience is that the FSP Organization is inefficient and that I trust FTL and other NH Liberty Activists to do recruitment of movers. FTL has grown to somewhere around 500,000 listeners, I think we can handle getting people to move to NH.
I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH.
Are you disputing that Zug, Switzerland is more free than NH, USA?
How is it wasting my time to want to spend the next 5 years of my place in somewhere I can be free, rather than spending the next 5 years of my life somewhere that is less free, and probably will become less free during those 5 years.
I guess I am ignorant of Zug. Why haven't you moved yet?
The Seat Belt bill being rejected is a ludicrous claim of success. It has been rejected many times before the FSP ever started, and as memory serves the recent vote for seatbelts came as close to succeeding as it has for a long time.
God bless you, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about here. I might add that the NHLA (populated by FSP signers) was instrumental in stopping the last push 2 years ago too, though not as much as this time.
Zug has been getting freer for the past 10 years (taxes down, drug laws more liberal). Why is it a waste of time for a Libertarian to move somewhere they can have more liberty? If there were 20,000 people in North Korea starting a FSP would I be wasting my time by not joining there?
While I'm happy to accept that NH is a fine choice of habitat if you don't want to leave the US, apparently you and people like Rebel aren't happy to accept there are any other possibilities that aren't a "waste of time", no matter what the reality is, and are condescending pricks while your doing it.
I have been accused of this generally and specifically before. I have tried to be honest here, without being condescending. I guess I failed, sorry about that.
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The seat belt bill would have passed if it weren't for the efforts of Free Staters. Liberty Alliance did a lot of work in order to put the pressure on a couple of the state senators.
Apparently the smoking ban wasn't that big of a deal.
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I'm still waiting to hear where the right places to send the money are.
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I'm still waiting to hear where the right places to send the money are.
My corporation.
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States may not be be sovereign in reality today, but they are supposed to be, there is lots of law on the side of state sovereignty. So, I would like to see what would happen if one of them tried.
Oh, the see what happens plan. Bring your guns.
I don't know what the Fed would do, but I would hope that they wouldn't just turn guns on peaceful people.
They already do that.
It is my understanding that Grafton is largely taken over. Porcupines are all in the govt there.
I don't consider taking a few mainly volunteer positions as "taking over".
What has changed?
Has the UN free zone passed?
Is there still a planning board?
It was kind of funny when John Babiarz took over as fire cheif, then requested a bunch of money for new equipment at the next vote.
Would you have asked Louis and Clark what their estimate was of how long it would take them to find the "West"? This is uncharted territory.
Yes. And I would hope they would have one.
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1) Is the Liberty Movement in NH the best? I wouldn't for sure, but I see alot of activity here. I do believe it is the easiest for US citizens to get involved with.
You see a lot of activity because that is where you are, and the people you hang out with. The easiest place for a US citizen to get involved is where they are right now.
I see activity here because I am here AND there is activity to see. I was in Sarasota, Fla. (one of the lowest tax burdens in the US) and I saw crapola. I suspect that is what you see where you are and what most libertarians see where they are.
When I was in NH, I didn't see any FSP activity unless I was looking for it.
You don't think 6 State House members shows viablity?
Not really. And can you really claim 6 state house members if you can't name them?
If you can't name them, you might as well claim 100 state house members.
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I'm still waiting to hear where the right places to send the money are.
My corporation.
You should promote it.
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I'm still waiting to hear where the right places to send the money are.
My corporation.
You should promote it.
I don't want my plan to die before it ever gets off the ground.
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States may not be be sovereign in reality today, but they are supposed to be, there is lots of law on the side of state sovereignty. So, I would like to see what would happen if one of them tried.
Oh, the see what happens plan. Bring your guns.
What you won't acknowledge is that this is the same plan of the rest of the libertarians around the world. "We will talk about liberty and see what happens. I already know the answer: not a f***ing thing.
I don't know what the Fed would do, but I would hope that they wouldn't just turn guns on peaceful people.
They already do that.
It is my understanding that Grafton is largely taken over. Porcupines are all in the govt there.
I don't consider taking a few mainly volunteer positions as "taking over".
What has changed?
Has the UN free zone passed?
Is there still a planning board?
It was kind of funny when John Babiarz took over as fire cheif, then requested a bunch of money for new equipment at the next vote.
That doesn't sound real libertarian. I would oppose that request and if I thought it the right thing to do, oppose the man. I don't know much at all about what is going on in Grafton, just what Bob H. or Tim C. say on the boards. Keep in mind that none of those people represent the movers of the project, no one does.
Would you have asked Louis and Clark what their estimate was of how long it would take them to find the "West"? This is uncharted territory.
Yes. And I would hope they would have one.
and you would have been disappointed. The plan, as I understand it, was go until we find the end, then turn around. It was a huge undertaking, with a simple plan.
Yes, the plan is move a bunch of libertarians to NH and see what happens. I think our chances are better than any other state's.
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I'm still waiting to hear where the right places to send the money are.
My corporation.
You should promote it.
I don't want my plan to die before it ever gets off the ground.
Sounds like a catch 22.
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I'm still waiting to hear where the right places to send the money are.
My corporation.
Your mother is a corporation
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I'm still waiting to hear where the right places to send the money are.
My corporation.
Your mother is a corporation
No, she's a fuckin' bitch.
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States may not be be sovereign in reality today, but they are supposed to be, there is lots of law on the side of state sovereignty. So, I would like to see what would happen if one of them tried.
Oh, the see what happens plan. Bring your guns.
What you won't acknowledge is that this is the same plan of the rest of the libertarians around the world. "We will talk about liberty and see what happens. I already know the answer: not a f***ing thing.
I will acknowledge that I haven't heard *any* large scale plan that seems viable yet.
I think the best libertarians will be able to do is create small communities that are as self-sufficient as possible.
I don't know much at all about what is going on in Grafton, just what Bob H. or Tim C. say on the boards. Keep in mind that none of those people represent the movers of the project, no one does.
They are both trying to sell Grafton to porcupines. It is in their best interest to exaggerate what is happening in Grafton. They may be able to get some small things done there, but it's not going to turn into Libertopia any time soon.
Would you have asked Louis and Clark what their estimate was of how long it would take them to find the "West"? This is uncharted territory.
Yes. And I would hope they would have one.
and you would have been disappointed. The plan, as I understand it, was go until we find the end, then turn around. It was a huge undertaking, with a simple plan.
But if you can't even make an estimate as to how long something will take, why would you think it is viable?
An estimate doesn't need to be accurate.
Congress appropriated $2,500 for an expedition, so they made an estimate of how much they thought it would cost.
Yes, the plan is move a bunch of libertarians to NH and see what happens. I think our chances are better than any other state's.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean the plan is viable. I guess it all depends what you want the end result to be.
What do you think NH will look like if this plan works?
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I'm way more concerned with the Fed than the state. And because of that, the specific state means very little to me. I'll concentrate on the ones that best suit my needs. Climate and a positive economic condition are my main concerns.
From there, I move straight to the local level. Its unwise to live in a county that contains a large city.
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[youtube=425,350]C9PGcMMC4X0[/youtube].
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States may not be be sovereign in reality today, but they are supposed to be, there is lots of law on the side of state sovereignty. So, I would like to see what would happen if one of them tried.
Oh, the see what happens plan. Bring your guns.
What you won't acknowledge is that this is the same plan of the rest of the libertarians around the world. "We will talk about liberty and see what happens. I already know the answer: not a f***ing thing.
I will acknowledge that I haven't heard *any* large scale plan that seems viable yet.
I think the best libertarians will be able to do is create small communities that are as self-sufficient as possible.
This has the same problem that The Free Town Project has. States control their towns and no freedom can be attained without raising the ire of the State. I think you would agree that the state with the largest amount of these small communities will be best off. What is the cost difference in moving 100 miles vs 1000, not much. Come start your small self sufficient community in New Hampshire, it is already the freest state (virtually tied with Colorado, and South Dakota)
I don't know much at all about what is going on in Grafton, just what Bob H. or Tim C. say on the boards. Keep in mind that none of those people represent the movers of the project, no one does.
They are both trying to sell Grafton to porcupines. It is in their best interest to exaggerate what is happening in Grafton. They may be able to get some small things done there, but it's not going to turn into Libertopia any time soon.
Would you have asked Louis and Clark what their estimate was of how long it would take them to find the "West"? This is uncharted territory.
Yes. And I would hope they would have one.
and you would have been disappointed. The plan, as I understand it, was go until we find the end, then turn around. It was a huge undertaking, with a simple plan.
But if you can't even make an estimate as to how long something will take, why would you think it is viable?
An estimate doesn't need to be accurate.
Congress appropriated $2,500 for an expedition, so they made an estimate of how much they thought it would cost.
and Jason Sorens estimated that it would take 20,000 movers to affect the government. So, the creators of both projects estimated some things, and and waited to see how things would turn out.
Yes, the plan is move a bunch of libertarians to NH and see what happens. I think our chances are better than any other state's.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean the plan is viable. I guess it all depends what you want the end result to be.
What do you think NH will look like if this plan works?
All I am hoping for is a government that is limited to cops, courts and roads. maybe some limited zoning (I don't want this, but it doesn't bother me the way marijuana prohabiton and public schools do).
I would say that the FSP has been successful if it reduces taxes in NH by 50%, legalizes marijuana, casinos, and consensual acts between adults. It would be even better if it was converted to the stateside version of the magical land of Zug.
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[youtube=425,350]C9PGcMMC4X0[/youtube].
That made my day.
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I signed, and I stand by my signature, but I don't know if I'll ever actually move. If they do indeed get to 20K, I'll live up to my commitment, honor my word, and get my ass up there within 5 years, probably a lot less. I really want to check out the Porcfest and the Liberty Forum, but that may realistically be the closest I ever come to actually moving to NH. Now that Napolitano is in D.C., AZ is getting better, with gun laws relaxing even more (we may very soon have Alaska/Vermont style CC), drug laws no worse than anywhere else (we have twice approved Medi-pot ballot initiatives, and next door New Mexico is going to have legal distribution, so if it works there, chances are good we'll adopt it soon after). The worst thing we have is the damned border. All the Feds and their "Constitution Free Zone" a few miles to the south... Montana or Wyoming would have been better choices, IMHO, but hey, I'm still proud to say I signed up with the FSP.
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Trust me. I'm going to join in with those who bash the FSP. Just as soon as I see the other plan for freedom succeed. Yep. Day 2, as soon as the other freedom plan succeeds I'm going to launch an anti-FSP tirade such as the world has never seen. Maybe I'll even launch "InyourfaceFSP.com" to hyuck it up at the free-staters. FSP will feel all whipped and battered by my anti-FSP tirade. You just wait and see. Its coming... as soon as the other plan succeeds...
As far as the "freedom in your lifetime" quote. What other freedom is anyone interested in? I mean, are you going to get fired up over freedom in your child's lifetime? If it can't get done in 20-30 years then what makes you think it will ever get done? If you are not seeking freedom in your own lifetime then what exactly is the goal?
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2 things:
1st: fatcat has a hair across his ass, cuz he's a brit (right?) & ''new hampshire'' stole it's name from hampshire, england
2nd: fsp will never work, cuz far more MASSHOLES move across the border & undo anything free staters can hope to accomplish.....bunch-a liberal/socialistic cunts that they are......
(if i'm wrong about 'is nationality, disregard....)
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2nd: fsp will never work, cuz far more MASSHOLES move across the border & undo anything free staters can hope to accomplish.....bunch-a liberal/socialistic cunts that they are......
(if i'm wrong about 'is nationality, disregard....)
The Masshole is more about the attitude of some folks from MA than anything else. Truth is, folks from MA that move to NH often do it because they are in search of more freedom. And shock, but the border towns with the highest concentrations of former MA residents tend to elect some of the most pro-freedom state representatives in the state.
Instead of Massholes, you are referring more to the people from NY, NJ and the rest of New England that are moving to NH for the white collar jobs and quality of living. (Un)fortunately, NH has the highest qualify of living in the US and that's not going to change very much. As for all of the tech, defense, health and education jobs in NH which attract out of state folks, I don't see that changing either. NH has a noticeably healthier economy than the rest of the Northeast in part because it is a lot more free and that isn't going to change anytime soon.
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2nd: fsp will never work, cuz far more MASSHOLES move across the border & undo anything free staters can hope to accomplish.....bunch-a liberal/socialistic cunts that they are......
(if i'm wrong about 'is nationality, disregard....)
The Masshole is more about the attitude of some folks from MA than anything else. Truth is, folks from MA that move to NH often do it because they are in search of more freedom. And shock, but the border towns with the highest concentrations of former MA residents tend to elect some of the most pro-freedom state representatives in the state.
Instead of Massholes, you are referring more to the people from NY, NJ and the rest of New England that are moving to NH for the white collar jobs and quality of living. (Un)fortunately, NH has the highest qualify of living in the US and that's not going to change very much. As for all of the tech, defense, health and education jobs in NH which attract out of state folks, I don't see that changing either. NH has a noticeably healthier economy than the rest of the Northeast in part because it is a lot more free and that isn't going to change anytime soon.
I 2nd this guy^
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the numbers are never an issue for anyone that really gives a shit about liberty. The project is a project to move people. If they don't make their projected numbers who the fuck cares.
lul.
enjoy your failure.
wait i forgot, the numbers don't matter cause ONE PERSON CAN CHANGE THE WORLD!1!!!!1!!!
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Given enough wealth and power I'm sure one person could obtain enough nukes to change the world
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the numbers are never an issue for anyone that really gives a shit about liberty. The project is a project to move people. If they don't make their projected numbers who the fuck cares.
lul.
enjoy your failure.
wait i forgot, the numbers don't matter cause ONE PERSON CAN CHANGE THE WORLD!1!!!!1!!!
one trick pony
lol both sides are pretty redundant
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the numbers are never an issue for anyone that really gives a shit about liberty. The project is a project to move people. If they don't make their projected numbers who the fuck cares.
lul.
enjoy your failure.
wait i forgot, the numbers don't matter cause ONE PERSON CAN CHANGE THE WORLD!1!!!!1!!!
one trick pony
I'm glad you actually went to lengths to prove what I was saying was wrong instead of just spunking out a pithy one liner.
oh wait.
I only ever mention Zug as a response to all the disingenuous assholes who claim that New Hampshire is the only viable/useful opportunity for Libertarians to be free.
100-200 libertarians a year is NOT a statistically significant number. Thousands of people are born in New Hampshire every year, the super majority will never be libertarians and will never support libertarian causes. Anyone who is going to claim most libertarians in New Hampshire don't sign up to the FSP, please show some evidence these libertarians actually exist or don't mention it.
If you think numbers don't matter..... you're an idiot. The most realistic and rational expectation for libertarians moving to New Hampshire is that it will get less free slower than any other state. There's absolutely nothing to back up the idea that New Hampshire will start moving in a libertarian direction, besides a bunch of wishful thinking and self delusion.
Now don't get me wrong, Zug is getting less free aswell, but I'm not misleading people to think Zug is some magical land where a handful of libertarians will start to turn the tide on statism.
Zug is much freer than New Hampshire is now, and it will still be freer in 5 years time, and likely after that.
Either show:
1. New Hampshire is freer than Zug
2. New Hampshire is progressing to freedom faster than anywhere else.
3. New Hampshire is in some other way the only viable place for libertarians to move.
Either that or stop treating anyone who doesn't agree New Hampshire is the only way to go as someone who is either unlibertarian, or isn't going to achieve anything.
New Hampshire is fine if you don't want to move out of America, but saying its the only viable choice and anything else is a waste of time is misleading bullshit, and I'm sick of you fuckers parroting it.
lol both sides are pretty redundant
If you think libertarians lying to other libertarians about the opportunities for freedom doesn't matter, then I guess you're right.
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BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't give a shit no more.
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BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't give a shit no more.
Its good that you still have time to post about how much you don't care about the discussion.
I guess constant updating of how much you care shows how much you don't care in a way that just ignoring it just doesn't achieve.
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If you think libertarians lying to other libertarians about the opportunities for freedom doesn't matter, then I guess you're right.
*sigh* i'm saying that its redundant cuz your debates with them over the fsp always turns out the same. Whats the point? Their are plenty of pipe dreams why not just let them have a self deluded sense of hope? It's nice to believe in something then nothing at all. It's closest to the most viable for ppl who want to stay in america. Otherwise you got seasteading or another country probably has more freedoms out there.
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BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't give a shit no more.
Its good that you still have time to post about how much you don't care about the discussion.
I guess constant updating of how much you care shows how much you don't care in a way that just ignoring it just doesn't achieve.
Are you still a virgin?
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(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8088/protest.jpg)
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3047/2395848150_a035ee2dcf.jpg)
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3614/3342742419_5f2c7f8465.jpg)
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fatcat what do you think is the best way to achieve freedom for a society?
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If you think libertarians lying to other libertarians about the opportunities for freedom doesn't matter, then I guess you're right.
*sigh* i'm saying that its redundant cuz your debates with them over the fsp always turns out the same. Whats the point? Their are plenty of pipe dreams why not just let them have a self deluded sense of hope? It's nice to believe in something then nothing at all. It's closest to the most viable for ppl who want to stay in america. Otherwise you got seasteading or another country probably has more freedoms out there.
I've said many times that NH is a fine choice if you don't want to move out of America.
The fact that NH is unlikely to become the libertopia some people believe it will be is another issue.
My main beef is NH libbers constantly parroting the "NH is the only hope" and "Well I take liberty seriously so I'm moving to NH, you can waste your life if you don't want to move" lines.
I was an FSP supporter for many years. It was only through discussion on this very forum, with blackie no less, that I was forced to re-evaluate my unrealistic expectations on New Hampshire, and actually started looking at alternatives, and I found that the canton of Zug had alot of stuff that I was looking for, while immigration for me is equally hard to America or Switzerland.
NH libbers need to stop looking at this shit like a battle. If I'm criticizing you, actually pay attention, don't assume I want to get into your faggot kiddy games about who's got the most special group. I'm not criticizing people who want to move to NH to try and make a difference, I'm critizicing :
A) The misleading, sometimes deliberate misleading of libertarians about the FSP and NH, and what the other options are.
B) The pissy attitude that anyone who isn't on the FSP bandwagon is either wasting their time, or doesn't care about liberty, and should be insulted/ridiculed.
Don't want to move across the Atlantic? Fine. Personal factors are important, which is the main reason I'm not living in Zug right now. Just stop misleading other libertarians to what the reality is. NH is far from perfect, and its far from the only option on the table.
BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't give a shit no more.
Its good that you still have time to post about how much you don't care about the discussion.
I guess constant updating of how much you care shows how much you don't care in a way that just ignoring it just doesn't achieve.
Are you still a virgin?
yah, you got me. I guess if I spent as much time on this forum as you, telling people how much I don't care about what they're talking about I'd have more luck with sexual relationships.
While you're at it, here are some people who's posts are too long (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29784.0), they're probably waiting for you to tell them what the acceptable length of post is on this forum.
Whats embarrassing here, is that supposedly your meant to not care about what I'm posting, but you're still coming back to reply to me.
I have no problem admitting that I care about the subjects I write about, and that I enjoy writing here on this forum. What's your reason for being here?
you're just the loser who spends his time on this forum bitching about what some other loser you supposedly don't care about.
well, that and pumping out dazzlingly clever one liners like R U A VIRGIN? and UR POSTING TOO LONG!!
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Just stop misleading other libertarians to what the reality is. NH is far from perfect, and its far from the only option on the table.
Ur reiterating the concerns I complained to mark about earlier. Hence the redundancy. Mark even agreed. Let them be deluded cuz most likely they'll be too stubborn to realize it themselves and they will have to face the truth eventually or live in denial.
Edit: My bad apparently mark just agreed about slow sign up and changing advertising around or something. Anyways I mentioned about false advertising and misleading people several times from the start.
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Just stop misleading other libertarians to what the reality is. NH is far from perfect, and its far from the only option on the table.
Ur reiterating the concerns I complained to mark about earlier. Hence the redundancy. Mark even agreed. Let them be deluded cuz most likely they'll be too stubborn to realize it themselves and they will have to face the truth eventually or live in denial.
Mark "agreed", but he then went on to say "I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty. I don't see anything that one can do for liberty that is nearly as efficient as moving to NH."
Its not just the nuts who think the states going to collapse at any moment that are a problem. Its reasonable people like Mark, who generally have realistic expectations, but then either deliberately or unknowingly
This whole problem is an unwillingness for libertarians to face facts. What evidence is there that anything is changing for.
This is the basis of all conspiracies. You take a few disparate facts, and weave them together to form a compelling story of your own concoction.
You take something like the failure of the seatbelt bill, maybe the FSP caused it, maybe it didn't, certainly no ones gone any way to prove that it was down to FSPers alone.
But you take that, you take some civ disser going to jail, and you start weaving this picture that this movement is making great progress, and you start to ignore things like.
1. Sign ups have decreased to a rate where it will likely be 2020 or later before the 20,000 figure is reached, and thats assuming all the current sign ups are actually legitimate (which basing that only 7/10th of the First 1000 showed up, the number of members still willing is probably even lower than that).
2. The birth rate of non libertarians in NH is much higher than the rate of immigrant libertarians, meaning that at best FSP movers are merely keeping the % of libertarians the same.
3. Total Taxes will increase next year, controls will increase next year, more laws will be brought in next year.
4. Theres nothing to suggest that the year after that, or the year after that will be any different, besides a bunch of "snowball/critical mass" bullshit that has absolutely nothing to back up if/when it would actually happen.
If NH libbers start to admit that they're fighting a losing battle, (i.e. NH is going to be less free next year than it is this year), then maybe they can start being more realistic about what can actually be achieved, like maybe decriminalizing marijuana like has already been done in some states, or maybe stopping more handgun regulation being brought in.
Of course, this goes against the whole "LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES" bullshit that sucked all the cultists in to begin with so theres no way anyone will adopt this over some fantasy bullshit where NH is going to turn into Libertopia if we all believe in it enough.
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you're just the loser who spends his time on this forum bitching about what some other loser you supposedly don't care about.
well, that and pumping out dazzlingly clever one liners like R U A VIRGIN? and UR POSTING TOO LONG!!
At least I'm not a virgin.
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You can preach as much as you want to me but I'm not disagreeing with you. The people who honestly believe they can get liberty in their lifetime are hopeful and stubborn. You can keep arguing with each one that pops up but in the end Ur debates tend to turn out the same. It just seems pointless cuz once they're backed into a corner its "the only viable option" and "what would you do for freedom" etc. It's your battle though I'm just sayin....
You keep saying you but I'm far from a conspiracy theorist or someone with unrealistic hopes.
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I still think that Wyoming or Montana would have been far better choices than NH. I'm not sure I believe this ranking that placed it as #1 most free state in America. With a state run liquor business and all those Massholes? What about the property taxes? Anyway, just my opinion, I still signed up, I had actually signed up before NH was chosen.
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I think the best libertarians will be able to do is create small communities that are as self-sufficient as possible.
This has the same problem that The Free Town Project has. States control their towns and no freedom can be attained without raising the ire of the State.
Why do you keep saying the Free Town Project has this problem, but you don't think the Free State Project will have the same problem, on a larger scale?
But I guess it depends what you mean by freedom. I don't plan on trying to change laws. I don't plan on informing the state of everything I do. They can't get mad about something if they don't know about it.
I think you would agree that the state with the largest amount of these small communities will be best off.
No, I wouldn't. I would take a quality community over a larger quantity of communities.
What is the cost difference in moving 100 miles vs 1000, not much.
Yes, there is a significant cost difference. I can do day trips to scout out the new place at 100 miles. I can rent a truck and make multiple trips in one day at 100 miles.
At 1000 miles I have two days of driving each way, and hotels. Fuel for a truck ain't cheap.
When I paid someone to move my household stuff around 100 miles it cost me $800 for two dudes, a truck and fuel.
The last move I did that was around 2000 miles, the relo cost was over $20,000.
Come start your small self sufficient community in New Hampshire
I don't think the climate is all that great for such a thing. If I was rich, I might sail up and live there during the summer. That would be sweet. I probably have better chances of making that happen than freeing the state of NH.
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At least I'm not a virgin.
I'd hate to think of the person or thing that would sleep with you.... *shudders*
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At least I'm not a virgin.
I'd hate to think of the person or thing that would sleep with you.... *shudders*
Hi.
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you're just the loser who spends his time on this forum bitching about what some other loser you supposedly don't care about.
well, that and pumping out dazzlingly clever one liners like R U A VIRGIN? and UR POSTING TOO LONG!!
One insults one-liners when losing the war of wit.
The people who honestly believe they can get liberty in their lifetime are hopeful and stubborn.
And not necessarily wrong.
It just seems pointless cuz once they're backed into a corner its ... "what would you do for freedom" etc.
How is this an irrelevant question?
But I guess it depends what you mean by freedom. I don't plan on trying to change laws. I don't plan on informing the state of everything I do. They can't get mad about something if they don't know about it.
Personally, I don't just want freedom for myself, I want a free society. And I think step number one in the creation of such a society is the concentration of liberty activists. Do you disagree?
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And not necessarily wrong.
That remains to be seen if the project fails or not. Success doesnt seem very likely at all however.
How is this an irrelevant question?
He's mentioned a couple of options that would offer more freedom already. It's just a question FSPers ask when they dont have anything else to retort when trying to validate the success of the FSP.
Personally, I don't just want freedom for myself, I want a free society. And I think step number one in the creation of such a society is the concentration of liberty activists. Do you disagree?
Who would disagree? Ain't workin too well over the past 8 years though. Fake sign ups and not meeting any of the goals...
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The people who honestly believe they can get liberty in their lifetime are hopeful and stubborn.
And not necessarily wrong.
That remains to be seen if the project fails or not. Success doesnt seem very likely at all however.
So better to be "realistic" and enslaved by that mentality of failure than hopeful and set free?
It just seems pointless cuz once they're backed into a corner its ... "what would you do for freedom" etc.
How is this an irrelevant question?
He's mentioned a couple of options that would offer more freedom already.
Maybe it's selective reading, but I haven't seen anything about actually achieving society wide freedom. I don't just want personal freedom, I want the benefits that come with societal freedom.
I think a mass movement to another country also has the downside of the resident culture rejecting the immigrant population, on a scale much higher than with non-NHites moving to NH. Has this been considered?
It's just a question FSPers ask when they dont have anything else to retort when trying to validate the success of the FSP.
I don't necessarily care about the success of the FSP, I care about its relative success compared to competing movements. Is there another project that is doing better?
Personally, I don't just want freedom for myself, I want a free society. And I think step number one in the creation of such a society is the concentration of liberty activists. Do you disagree?
Who would disagree? Ain't workin too well over the past 8 years though. Fake sign ups and not meeting any of the goals...
What is working better though? It's better to be working on something that's not-succeeding/failing than run away to some "freer" country alone.
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So better to be "realistic" and enslaved by that mentality of failure than hopeful and set free?
Hopeful and set free? or you mean hopeful and let down. Look around you and across the world. There is no getting away from government. Maybe we'll reach an enlightened age where greed and desire for control is non-existent but I hardly doubt it. Better to save your efforts and work towards something better.
Maybe it's selective reading, but I haven't seen anything about actually achieving society wide freedom. I don't just want personal freedom, I want the benefits that come with societal freedom.
Why wouldnt we all want freedom for everyone? I dont see it happening though.
I think a mass movement to another country also has the downside of the resident culture rejecting the immigrant population, on a scale much higher than with non-NHites moving to NH. Has this been considered?
It is certainly a possibility. But then again who knows what'll happen as the FSP grows. I'm sure the government knows how to deal with "riots" and such if they need to or spin w/e story they make it to be.
I don't necessarily care about the success of the FSP, I care about its relative success compared to competing movements. Is there another project that is doing better? What is working better though? It's better to be working on something that's not-succeeding/failing than run away to some "freer" country alone.
Who's running away? It's a search for freedom. Think of it as an adventure to homestead somewhere nice. Anyways my best bet would be seasteading or traveling abroad. It's not like leaving the country is all that horrible anyway.
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Zero consideration that there are silent movers who just don't want to be identified as FSP members. Not all those who are politically in line philosophically are going to be jumping up and down and waving their hands. And many see identifying yourself as a FSP member is kin to making yourself a target.
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Zero consideration that there are silent movers who just don't want to be identified as FSP members.
Your totally right i'm sure you got a couple thousand silent movers there already....
Not all those who are politically in line philosophically are going to be jumping up and down and waving their hands. And many see identifying yourself as a FSP member is kin to making yourself a target.
I totally agree if you wanna get involved politically that even declaring ur an FSP member ruins ur credibility. So how many till you can persuade politics in the state? how far do you have to go? Are you gonna make up more then 50% of the citizens there cuz if they start to dislike changes what'll stop them from competing? (Think about the kids, what about elderly and retirement, what about health care, taxes are important for schools and roads, dont let those drug dealers/users go they'll just corrupt our neighborhood.) If you do make changes what will stop the feds from stepping in when they dont agree? You think medical marijuana raids didnt happen in california? Governments are corrupt through and through but honestly I really do wish the FSP good luck. I just really can't see it working out.
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Zero consideration that there are silent movers who just don't want to be identified as FSP members. Not all those who are politically in line philosophically are going to be jumping up and down and waving their hands. And many see identifying yourself as a FSP member is kin to making yourself a target.
Could there be a bunch of "silent movers" going to FSP? sure.
Is there any reason to believe they are there? no. "we might not know if some people moved" is a desperate last resort to try and make the FSP look good.
Can you put a number on these "silent movers"? Can you tell if there is 1 silent mover, or 1000 silent movers? Then whats the point of bringing it up.
This is the same shit religionists use.
Can you prove that there isn't a race of super intelligent aliens surrounding the earth with space ships cloaked to any form of detection? Is not being able to prove it any reason to believe it?
When you're using the fact that you wouldn't be able to know if people moved, its extremely disingenuous territory. What next? Are you going to use the fact that taxes in NH are increasing as proof that NH citizens are getting tired of government intervention?
If there are "silent movers", what are they doing? Are they going to "social sundays"? Are they joining the NHLA? Are they turning up to protests? If they're doing anything but sitting in their houses doing nothing it should be pretty easy to measure their presence.
Or more likely its just a pathetic attempt to inflate the importance and progress of the FSP when the actual facts don't go your way.
This attitude is extremely pervasive attitude in the FSP to spin everything to the maximum, like with the First 1000. 300 people didn't show up by the deadline. but wait, they did show up, they just didn't tell anyone, or they're probably going to come in the next year or two.
The more likely possibility that A) they changed their minds, or B) they signed the pledge fraudulently isn't even mentioned. So instead of FSPers actually addressing how they missed their goal by 30%, and what they could do to do better in future, they just engage in a blowjob fest about how good the FSP is.
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"we might not know if some people moved" is a desperate last resort to try and make the FSP look good.
Indeed.
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So better to be "realistic" and enslaved by that mentality of failure than hopeful and set free?
Hopeful and set free? or you mean hopeful and let down.
So be it. Better to think something can happen than not and thus directly lead to it not happening.
Look around you and across the world. There is no getting away from government.
Government is a pattern of ideas, and it like any pattern of ideas can be thrown out. Your negativity manifests itself.
Bottom line is, you don't know that we can't get rid of government.
Maybe we'll reach an enlightened age where greed and desire for control is non-existent but I hardly doubt it. Better to save your efforts and work towards something better.
This statement is contradictory. What should we be working toward if not societal freedom?
Maybe it's selective reading, but I haven't seen anything about actually achieving society wide freedom. I don't just want personal freedom, I want the benefits that come with societal freedom.
Why wouldnt we all want freedom for everyone?
I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.
I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.
I dont see it happening though.
Why?
Who's running away?
People that care more about individual personal freedom than the chance of societal freedom. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they have different goals. That's OK, but to argue that anyone that has a goal of complete liberty is doing something wrong by moving to NH is stupid if you can't say what has a better shot.
It's a search for freedom.
Does no good if you can't get other people to help you expand the freedom.
Think of it as an adventure to homestead somewhere nice.
I don't just want somewhere nice, I want to achieve liberty.
Anyways my best bet would be seasteading or traveling abroad. It's not like leaving the country is all that horrible anyway.
I like the idea of seasteading, but the costs are incredible.
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So be it. Better to think something can happen than not and thus directly lead to it not happening.
I'm not saying to give up but have some realistic hopes and dont mislead others. Freedom certainly isnt coming in your lifetime. You can create a community and hope to keep your kids from getting indoctrinated into the system and expand from there.
Government is a pattern of ideas, and it like any pattern of ideas can be thrown out. Your negativity manifests itself.
Bottom line is, you don't know that we can't get rid of government.
My negativity manifests itself with reality. C'mon now look into history. Since when have we not had some organization or government reigning control over it's peons?
This statement is contradictory. What should we be working toward if not societal freedom?
How's it contradictory. Better to save your efforts and work for something better then NH is what I meant.
I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.
They are being realistic about the situation. Do you honestly believe your efforts wont go to waste? You saw what happened to Sam. Did it have much effect at all? What about all the police brutality and wrongful doings you hear in the news and media? Does anything really happen to them? Some paid leave and a vacation... I honestly only see you all fighting for a lost cause despite it being a noble and just cause. More laws are passed on the federal level and state level despite the FSP. Maybe you hindered a seatbelt law big woop.
I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.
Tellin yea look into seasteading or another country.
People that care more about individual personal freedom than the chance of societal freedom. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they have different goals. That's OK, but to argue that anyone that has a goal of complete liberty is doing something wrong by moving to NH is stupid if you can't say what has a better shot.
No one is doing anything wrong. By all means pursue liberty as best you can but the FSP isn't doing jack shit.
Does no good if you can't get other people to help you expand the freedom.
Does if there are more freedoms in that area and others willing to pursue it there.
I don't just want somewhere nice, I want to achieve liberty.
Someplace nice that has more liberties? Um jeez no brainer there.
I like the idea of seasteading, but the costs are incredible.
There are other ppl investing and they are looking into detachable "house boats" if you will. There is much progress to be made still but much more potential in our lifetime then the FSP.
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I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.
I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.
How exactly is the FSP "working"? Is NH getting freer? No, not even when you exclude increases in Federal government.
Firstly, I've never said people shouldn't move to NH as part of the FSP. My primary concern with the FSP is members lying to libertarians about the FSP and what the alternatives are.
Also, I'd like to know how exactly Zug is "unfeasible". I have never once suggested that there should be a political migration programme for Zug.
There's absolutely nothing to suggest that New Hampshire is going to be freer in 5 years than it is now. I would have to be a fucking idiot to want to move somewhere I would spend the next 5 years of my life paying more in taxes for some altruistic goal of creating some libertarian holy land.
If other libertarians want to move to Zug to enjoy the freedoms available fine, but I really don't care about donning some hero ego and trying to save the world. All the data shows that if I move to NH now, i will be less free 5 years from now than when I stepped off the plane.
Now the same goes for Zug, but I'll be much freer than I would be otherwise, and as a libertarian, I kind of care about living somewhere I will be stolen from less, and not put in a jail cell for paying a hooker or using cannabis. However, what I'm not doing, is telling everyone to move to Zug so we can have "LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES".
Zug is not getting freer, neither is New Hampshire, and both of those are highly unlikely to change in the next 10 years.
If anyone thinks my position is bullshit, please feel free to make money off that fact, as I'll happily bet money that New Hampshire will be less free in 5 years than it is now, and that Zug will be freer than New Hampshire in 5 years.
Even assuming New Hampshire was getting freer, why would I move to a country (America) to be less free than I would be in Switzerland. When NH becomes freer than Zug, please let me know and I'll be happy to move, but I'm not going to move somewhere I can be less free, just on some deluded dream of 0.05% of the population bringing down an entire government.
Saying all this, you aren't even paying attention to what my point is.
I'm not saying NH is a bad choice for libertarians to move (although i don't believe its the best),what i am saying is that misleading libertarians that "NEW HAMPSHIRE IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE OPTION" and "EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME" is wrong, and not based on fact.
There is absolutely nothing to back this up besides wishful thinking and self delusion.
How many times are you fuckers going to reply to any criticism with "OH YEAH!?!? WELL WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT FREEDOM!?!"
Its really not the ego shattering puzzle you think it is. To address your original point. What I'm going to do for freedom:
Short Term : Move to Zug, Switzerland.
Long Term : Move to a Seastead
If you're moving to NH because its one of the freest US states, and to be around other libertarians, great. If you're going to try and play hero and start libertopia, you're wasting your time, and you're a dick for looking down on people who don't want to join in your happy fun club.
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(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2131/protest1.jpg)
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So be it. Better to think something can happen than not and thus directly lead to it not happening.
I'm not saying to give up but have some realistic hopes and dont mislead others.
I'm against misleading others, but that includes misleading them that NH can't work.
Freedom certainly isnt coming in your lifetime.
The future is unknowable. Especially these days.
You can create a community and hope to keep your kids from getting indoctrinated into the system and expand from there.
I think concentration is important, but segregation decreases the impact liberty activists can have on their non-libertarian friends.
Government is a pattern of ideas, and it like any pattern of ideas can be thrown out. Your negativity manifests itself.
Bottom line is, you don't know that we can't get rid of government.
My negativity manifests itself with reality. C'mon now look into history. Since when have we not had some organization or government reigning control over it's peons?
There have been times, but I think it is irrelevant one way or the other. History doesn't reveal the impact the internet and technology can have on the geopolitical systems of today.
This statement is contradictory. What should we be working toward if not societal freedom?
How's it contradictory. Better to save your efforts and work for something better then NH is what I meant.
So what has a better shot of societal freedom than NH and the FSP?
I'm saying I think people like fatcat and blackie are dissing the FSP even though they have different goals. I think they care more about freedom for their person, which is why fatcat's promoting unfeasible ideas like Zug, and blackie says he doesn't want to change laws.
They are being realistic about the situation. Do you honestly believe your efforts wont go to waste?
No effort to create more libertarians is a waste in my book.
I don't see how it is realistic to abandon all hope in societal liberty. Even if there is only a 0.001% chance of complete freedom, I think it is better to try than to run off to some foreign country. Maybe it's a waste, but what if it works?
I honestly only see you all fighting for a lost cause despite it being a noble and just cause.
Is there a less lost cause that aims for freedom? I don't know of it.
I still want to hear from the oh-so-wise fatcat about what is working so much better than the FSP.
Tellin yea look into seasteading or another country.
Which one has 9000+ signers?
Even if most signers are fake, still shows support the seasteading doesn't have.
As far as another country goes, blackie's arguments of the costs to move longer distances can be used against fatcat's arguments for Zug.
By all means pursue liberty as best you can but the FSP isn't doing jack shit.
Besides being the best concentrator of liberty activists in the entire world? Or am I wrong in saying that?
Does no good if you can't get other people to help you expand the freedom.
Does if there are more freedoms in that area and others willing to pursue it there.
Where are all these people that want to help Zug?
I don't just want somewhere nice, I want to achieve liberty.
Someplace nice that has more liberties? Um jeez no brainer there.
Maybe it has more liberties now, but what is the chance of increasing the liberties if you can't expand the base of liberty activists there?
I like the idea of seasteading, but the costs are incredible.
There are other ppl investing and they are looking into detachable "house boats" if you will. There is much progress to be made still but much more potential in our lifetime then the FSP.
That may be true, and it may be the solution to our problems, but so far, what has it achieved compared to the concentration of liberty activists in NH?
How exactly is the FSP "working"? Is NH getting freer? No, not even when you exclude increases in Federal government.
It's concentrating libertarians, which I think is step number one to political and social change.
My primary concern with the FSP is members lying to libertarians about the FSP and what the alternatives are.
If the goal is societal liberty, what are the alternatives?
Also, I'd like to know how exactly Zug is "unfeasible". I have never once suggested that there should be a political migration programme for Zug.
What is the point of promoting Zug if you are not promoting people move there?
Zug is unfeasible because it is another country, which I think basically means you cannot cause political change. Even if you can successfully pay to get there, and become a citizen, you will always be viewed as a foreigner and thus cannot have the same impact as against Americans. Am I just way off base on this? Can you even be elected? Does Zug really have a better chance of complete liberty than NH?
After reading more carefully over the rest of your post I understand you don't care about complete liberty, you just want greater short term liberty.
Now the same goes for Zug, but I'll be much freer than I would be otherwise, and as a libertarian, I kind of care about living somewhere I will be stolen from less, and not put in a jail cell for paying a hooker or using cannabis. However, what I'm not doing, is telling everyone to move to Zug so we can have "LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES".
Well I'm a libertarian too, and I kind of care about living somewhere that has a chance of becoming libertopia. You can say all you want about no evidence to suggest NH becoming it, but I know of no other place that even has a chance. Perhaps seasteading, but that doesn't exist yet so one can't move there.
Even assuming New Hampshire was getting freer, why would I move to a country (America) to be less free than I would be in Switzerland. When NH becomes freer than Zug, please let me know and I'll be happy to move, but I'm not going to move somewhere I can be less free, just on some deluded dream of 0.05% of the population bringing down an entire government.
Maybe it is deluded, but without another option it's irrelevant.
I'm not saying NH is a bad choice for libertarians to move (although i don't believe its the best),what i am saying is that misleading libertarians that "NEW HAMPSHIRE IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE OPTION" and "EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME" is wrong, and not based on fact.
Am I missing something? Where did you point out a better place to move if one wants societal freedom?
There is absolutely nothing to back this up besides wishful thinking and self delusion.
I started reading this thread halfway through, but Zug and seasteading seem like the only options presented so far. Neither of which can really be called better than NH IMO, because Zug is not a place for societal freedom and seasteading is less like a society and more like a community. I don't think you truly get the economic benefits of liberty when you are dealing with such a small group.
How many times are you fuckers going to reply to any criticism with "OH YEAH!?!? WELL WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT FREEDOM!?!"
How many times are you going to dodge this question:
fatcat what do you think is the best way to achieve freedom for a society?
Its really not the ego shattering puzzle you think it is. To address your original point. What I'm going to do for freedom:
Short Term : Move to Zug, Switzerland.
Long Term : Move to a Seastead
Neither of which achieve freedom for a society.
If you're going to try and play hero and start libertopia, you're wasting your time
What if it works?
you're a dick for looking down on people who don't want to join in your happy fun club.
I don't look down on people with different goals, but I do get pissed at people that don't understand the FSP's and then bash it as unsuccessful.
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What do you consider a society?
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Zero consideration that there are silent movers who just don't want to be identified as FSP members. Not all those who are politically in line philosophically are going to be jumping up and down and waving their hands. And many see identifying yourself as a FSP member is kin to making yourself a target.
Could there be a bunch of "silent movers" going to FSP? sure.
Is there any reason to believe they are there? no. "we might not know if some people moved" is a desperate last resort to try and make the FSP look good.
Can you put a number on these "silent movers"? Can you tell if there is 1 silent mover, or 1000 silent movers? Then whats the point of bringing it up.
This is the same shit religionists use.
Not trying to make the FSP look good. But in my experience of trying to get people to sign ballot petitions. Many won't sign because they think it will wrongly or rightly make them a target. However, when election time rolled around the vote totals were higher than the signature requirement. I would assume if there are ever any Libertarianisk ballot initiatives that are successful it might just be a result of silent movers. It is also possible these people are putting extra pressure on representatives the old fashioned way of writing or phone calls. You are right that their totals can't be gauged accurately but by the same token they shouldn't be entirely dismissed either.
There is a marketing formula concerning silent consumer preferences based on vocal consumers. Something like for every vocal consumer they represent 10 silent but similarly opinionated consumers. So if a radio station gets 100 phone calls to complain it represents 1000 angry actual listeners. But this dynamic may have changed due to political groups like the censor groups pushing members to call in complaints which throws the natural number off. Maybe Mark being more active in Marketing can explain this concept and how it has changed.
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The future is unknowable. Especially these days.
Maybe, but society is not moving in the direction of liberty.
http://www.davesag.com/unabomber/10history.html
SOME PRINCIPLES OF HISTORY
99. Think of history as being the sum of two components: an erratic component that consists of unpredictable events that follow no discernible pattern, and a regular component that consists of long-term historical trends. Here we are concerned with the long-term trends.
100. FIRST PRINCIPLE. If a SMALL change is made that affects a long-term historical trend, then the effect of that change will almost always be transitory -- the trend will soon revert to its original state. (Example: A reform movement designed to clean up political corruption in a society rarely has more than a short-term effect; sooner or later the reformers relax and corruption creeps back in. The level of political corruption in a given society tends to remain constant, or to change only slowly with the evolution of the society. Normally, a political cleanup will be permanent only if accompanied by widespread social changes; a SMALL change in the society won't be enough.) If a small change in a long-term historical trend appears to be permanent, it is only because the change acts in the direction in which the trend is already moving, so that the trend is not altered by only pushed a step ahead.
101. The first principle is almost a tautology. If a trend were not stable with respect to small changes, it would wander at random rather than following a definite direction; in other words it would not be a long-term trend at all.
102. SECOND PRINCIPLE. If a change is made that is sufficiently large to alter permanently a long-term historical trend, then it will alter the society as a whole. In other words, a society is a system in which all parts are interrelated, and you can't permanently change any important part without changing all other parts as well.
103. THIRD PRINCIPLE. If a change is made that is large enough to alter permanently a long-term trend, then the consequences for the society as a whole cannot be predicted in advance. (Unless various other societies have passed through the same change and have all experienced the same consequences, in which case one can predict on empirical grounds that another society that passes through the same change will be like to experience similar consequences.)
104. FOURTH PRINCIPLE. A new kind of society cannot be designed on paper. That is, you cannot plan out a new form of society in advance, then set it up and expect it to function as it was designed to do.
105. The third and fourth principles result from the complexity of human societies. A change in human behavior will affect the economy of a society and its physical environment; the economy will affect the environment and vice versa, and the changes in the economy and the environment will affect human behavior in complex, unpredictable ways; and so forth. The network of causes and effects is far too complex to be untangled and understood.
106. FIFTH PRINCIPLE. People do not consciously and rationally choose the form of their society. Societies develop through processes of social evolution that are not under rational human control.
107. The fifth principle is a consequence of the other four.
108. To illustrate: By the first principle, generally speaking an attempt at social reform either acts in the direction in which the society is developing anyway (so that it merely accelerates a change that would have occurred in any case) or else it has only a transitory effect, so that the society soon slips back into its old groove. To make a lasting change in the direction of development of any important aspect of a society, reform is insufficient and revolution is required. (A revolution does not necessarily involve an armed uprising or the overthrow of a government.) By the second principle, a revolution never changes only one aspect of a society, it changes the whole society; and by the third principle changes occur that were never expected or desired by the revolutionaries. By the fourth principle, when revolutionaries or utopians set up a new kind of society, it never works out as planned.
109. The American Revolution does not provide a counterexample. The American "Revolution" was not a revolution in our sense of the word, but a war of independence followed by a rather far-reaching political reform. The Founding Fathers did not change the direction of development of American society, nor did they aspire to do so. They only freed the development of American society from the retarding effect of British rule. Their political reform did not change any basic trend, but only pushed American political culture along its natural direction of development. British society, of which American society was an offshoot, had been moving for a long time in the direction of representative democracy. And prior to the War of Independence the Americans were already practicing a significant degree of representative democracy in the colonial assemblies. The political system established by the Constitution was modeled on the British system and on the colonial assemblies. With major alteration, to be sure -- there is no doubt that the Founding Fathers took a very important step. But it was a step along the road that English-speaking world was already traveling. The proof is that Britain and all of its colonies that were populated predominantly by people of British descent ended up with systems of representative democracy essentially similar to that of the United States. If the Founding Fathers had lost their nerve and declined to sign the Declaration of Independence, our way of lffe today would not have been significantly different. Maybe we would have had somewhat closer ties to Britain, and would have had a Parliament and Prime Minister instead of a Congress and President. No big deal. Thus the American Revolution provides not a counterexample to our principles but a good illustration of them.
110. Still, one has to use common sense in applying the principles. They are expressed in imprecise language that allows latitude for interpretation, and exceptions to them can be found. So we present these principles not as inviolable laws but as rules of thumb, or guides to thinking, that may provide a partial antidote to naive ideas about the future of society. The principles should be borne constantly in mind, and whenever one reaches a conciusion that conflicts with them one should carefully reexamine one's thinking and retain the conclusion only if one has good, solid reasons for doing so.
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I'm against misleading others, but that includes misleading them that NH can't work.
I never said it wouldn't work just not in our lifetime. Also that it hasn't completed shit so far.
The future is unknowable. Especially these days.
Yea I just might win with this lottery ticket out of the millions of others who play...
I think concentration is important, but segregation decreases the impact liberty activists can have on their non-libertarian friends.
I never said concentration wasn't important. I'm saying because there will be a small community of people who believe the same your children will fair better learning of freedom. Again I wouldn't count on freedom in our lifetime.
There have been times, but I think it is irrelevant one way or the other. History doesn't reveal the impact the internet and technology can have on the geopolitical systems of today.
There have been times but no real free society. It only gives the ppl more reason to believe in "their" government. Even with the internet and the information out there what difference has there been? Government corruption expose, police brutality, etc. What does anyone do about it? nothing
So what has a better shot of societal freedom than NH and the FSP?
In our lifetime it would be seasteading.
I don't see how it is realistic to abandon all hope in societal liberty. Even if there is only a 0.001% chance of complete freedom, I think it is better to try than to run off to some foreign country. Maybe it's a waste, but what if it works?
Wow way to play the lottery. I dont say abandon all hope its not wrong to be hopeful but be realistic. It's not better then running to a country with more freedoms cuz nothing has prevented more freedoms from being loss in NH which shows at this point the FSP is failing miserably.
Is there a less lost cause that aims for freedom? I don't know of it.
Seasteading
Which one has 9000+ signers?
Even if most signers are fake, still shows support the seasteading doesn't have.
Seasteading has way more financial support. A lot of intelligent people have volunteered there time to the efforts as well. There is much more progress with seasteading in the past year then the FSP has had in the last 8.
Besides being the best concentrator of liberty activists in the entire world? Or am I wrong in saying that?
700 ppl is all we can get then libertarians, free marketeers, minarchists, etc. are doomed for failure. Even if you have all those ppl there nothing is working very well.
Where are all these people that want to help Zug?
Like you guys wanna help NH? No you wanna increase freedom in your lifetime wherever you voted to move the project. You already chose the place you all want to be and thats fine.
Maybe it has more liberties now, but what is the chance of increasing the liberties if you can't expand the base of liberty activists there?
There are better places for freedom and if the FSP really wanted to change things they would have found the greatest location of liberties world wide. Not like there arent libertarians all around the world.
That may be true, and it may be the solution to our problems, but so far, what has it achieved compared to the concentration of liberty activists in NH?
http://seasteading.org
engineers, researchers, blue prints, and over half a million in donations.
It's concentrating libertarians, which I think is step number one to political and social change.
Again whats stopped the feds from raiding medical marijuana facilities in california? What did anyone do despite knowing it was wrong? Protests didnt do jack shit. The fed has the power not the states so glwt.
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You can vote and even change state laws. Record wrongful doings but despite all that happening today nothing has changed. Despite people learning about it nothing has happened. So you can hold protests and you can vote politically. Yet it just continues to get worse. Maybe it'll get to the point of another revolution. That'd be cool.
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What do you consider a society?
Good question. Any group can be considered a society, but I think of a country/state-sized group when considering a society. The reason is that the bigger the landmass, the more economic freedom can be had. You can only fit so many people on a boat, and it's hard to manufacture things out there.
BTW I like your avatar.
The future is unknowable. Especially these days.
Maybe, but society is not moving in the direction of liberty.
Maybe we can make some individuals move that direction, though.
http://seasteading.org
engineers, researchers, blue prints, and over half a million in donations.
The rest of your points seemed to point to this.
I have to say, I love the idea of seasteading. I think the buildup of a new society is awesome. How long off do you think it is, though?
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http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dck5q6sr_12cqrdxrf2
looks like about 2010 they hope to make it a reality.
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http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dck5q6sr_12cqrdxrf2
looks like about 2010 they hope to make it a reality.
2010 goals: Make seasteading a reality
* Building awareness and support
o At least 1 individual is living full-time on a seastead
Sorry, but this made me laugh.
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With this strategy in place, we expect 2009 and 2010 to be an extremely productive and exciting time for the seasteading movement. Grounded in clear strategic principles -- incrementalism, transparency, realistic compromise, and balanced centralization and decentralization -- we've charted a path that's going to make real progress. This path is clearly defined, realistic in scope, and has measurable results.
Within two years, we'll see the first seastead floating in the San Francisco Bay. We'll see the commercial seasteading sector in its infancy, beginning operation on ships. Real progress will be made understanding our legal and political challenges. And the community will really take off; Ephemerisles will be happening, a large TSI membership will be built, and we'll have lots of strong, wide-reaching press coverage. What's more, we'll be well-positioned to lead the movement into its next phase, with a strong team built here at TSI and significant funding from new major donors.
You know that is next year right? They aren't gonna set up a full seasteading society without properly testing and getting feedback.
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BTW I like your avatar.
(http://www.neonuttersofneopia.com/nuttyrainbow/images/pets/chomby/biscuit_chomby.png)
It's a biscuit Chomby.
Were you into Neopets?
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It's a biscuit Chomby.
Were you into Neopets?
Haha no, just looks like a dinosaur and I was into those.
Also it's funny looking.
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Go do whatever will work. I won't deny that Zug or seasteading may be better, but is there any movement in Zug? And how long until seasteading can accept mass migration? You don't have to live out your last days in New Hampshire. There is a movement in parts of New Hampshire. You can go there and get involved and then move on to something better when it comes along. Go to Wyoming, Montana, Colorado or Arizona if they are more suitable to you. But you will get some immediate benefit from being around like minded people. And more will be accomplished with concentration. An actual decreasing of the state is not the only accomplishment to note. Creating more liberty minded people is notable.
Some of you criticize the people who claim that they see NH as the only solution, but this doesn't meant that it is necessarily the freest. It just means that it is the only place where they see any movement of significance. Zug may be freer, but what movement is there? I don't think Mark has denied that there is anything happening anywhere else. He just says that he hasn't seen it.
I see 1% committed non complaints as being very effective in undermining the system. That is very reasonable to have in some parts of NH within a few years. There are also many people who will move after there are visible changes made. I imagine these people number many times those who will go to try and make the initial changes.
I don't think there will be any decrease in state power of any significance until the national government loses much of its power, which it gets from the dollar. There will need to be a great devaluation or collapse of the dollar before significant changes for freedom can be made. I think a collapse and rejection of the dollar is likely necessary, not just a great devaluation.
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Also, ignore Boner Joe's posts. He is just a shit stirrer with nothing of value to say.
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Also, ignore Boner Joe's posts. He is just a shit stirrer with nothing of value to say.
lol ^_^
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Not trying to make the FSP look good. But in my experience of trying to get people to sign ballot petitions. Many won't sign because they think it will wrongly or rightly make them a target. However, when election time rolled around the vote totals were higher than the signature requirement. I would assume if there are ever any Libertarianisk ballot initiatives that are successful it might just be a result of silent movers. It is also possible these people are putting extra pressure on representatives the old fashioned way of writing or phone calls. You are right that their totals can't be gauged accurately but by the same token they shouldn't be entirely dismissed either.
I'm not saying there aren't any silent movers, I'm just saying that its unlikely they make up any significant proportion, and should not be used to argue that the FSP is doing better than it actually is.
Surely if these silent movers represent any significant number, they're number would be rather easy to gauge using other methods.
Sure they don't sign the FSP pledge, but if they're moving to NH for liberty, surely they must be active in some manner?
I highly encourage NH libbers to get numbers on this. Who's going to meetings? Social sundays? NHLA? etc. Surely it wouldn't be that hard to make a quick headcount of people turning up at court rooms for liberty who haven't signed? I don't hold much hope on this being done however as it removes the handy "there could be hundreds of silent movers!" argument from the belt, if it actually turns out theres only 12 silent movers.
If they're not active enough to turn up to any activism, do they really matter that much as a "silent mover".
I would be very surprised if silent movers made up more than 1% of total NH lib movers.
I don't think Mark has denied that there is anything happening anywhere else. He just says that he hasn't seen it.
"Does one care about liberty if one doesn't move to NH. I tend to agree that if one isn't working towards moving to NH one is probably wasting one's time, if one wants to stand for liberty." - FTL_Mark
Mark, the co-host of a very large libertarian radio show has stated that anything but the FSP is a waste of time.
Lets eschew this idea that the FSP is "doing something" shall we? NH is getting less free, USA is getting less free, thats not progress. You don't get to take failure now, and spin it to mean you will succeed in the future. The FSP is (slowly) growing in numbers (slower than the birth rate and immigration of non libertarians), thats it. Call it progress if you want, but if NH government is getting bigger I don't class that as success.
The idea that "NH has a movement so places without a movement aren't as good" is idiotic. Currently the FSP has done nothing to increase freedoms in NH. At best it has slightly slowed the increase of government.
What is the point of promoting Zug if you are not promoting people move there?
Zug is unfeasible because it is another country, which I think basically means you cannot cause political change. Even if you can successfully pay to get there, and become a citizen, you will always be viewed as a foreigner and thus cannot have the same impact as against Americans. Am I just way off base on this? Can you even be elected? Does Zug really have a better chance of complete liberty than NH?
I have never suggested that moving to Zug will ever lead to complete liberty. I have mentioned on many occasions that it is likely to get less free. You seem to have adopted a bizarre all or nothing attitude to freedom. While NH continues to become less free, there is very little appeal for me to go there. When I move to Zug, I am not limited, if NH starts to look better I will gladly move.
I have never once suggested a political migration campaign to Zug. I suggest Zug as a place for libertarians to move because its one of the freest places in the world, and probably the freest if you want to live somewhere with lots of english speakers and a high quality of life.
As a libertarian I was happy when someone told me about the low taxes and high freedoms available in Zug, and I am now extended the same courtesy. I don't mention Zug because I have some vested Ponzi-scheme interest in getting people to move, I mention it because its one of the freest places in the world and there are people who might want to move there if they knew about it.
FYI I happen to live in the UK, so both America and Switzerland are "foreign" countries to me. In fact im not sure why you keep bringing that up like its some act of cowardice to move to a country where you can be more free.
If what you say is true then I can't do anything as a foreigner in either America or Switzerland, so I might aswell go to the one I will be most free in. Although I'm sure you'll find a reason why NH is still actually a better choice.
Also Switzerland has becoming freer in many areas in the last 10-20 years, 20 years ago prostitution wasn't legal, now it is, 20 years ago heroin users we're jailed, now they're put in treatment programs (not ideal but better than imprisonment), 20 years ago cannabis was mainly an underground market, now there are hundreds of stores that sell cannabis. Zug is also much smaller, with a population of only 100,000 people, and has greater autonomy from the federal government, so if I was going to suggest a political migration scheme (which i think is a bad idea) Zug would seem a much better choice.
Saying all this I believe Zug is likely to become less free in the next 10-20 years. Gun regulation will likely increase, taxes will likely increase (not significantly at the canton level, but very likely at the federal level), medical regulation will increase (Switzerland already has a mandatory insurance scheme).
After reading more carefully over the rest of your post I understand you don't care about complete liberty, you just want greater short term liberty.
Obviously you didn't read closely enough:
"Short Term : Move to Zug, Switzerland.
Long Term : Move to a Seastead"
Neither of which achieve freedom for a society.
The seastead is a society, dummy. Frankly, if I can be totally free I don't care if you call it a society or not.
I then went to explain that I'd be much better off in Switzerland for both long and short term where I would be taxed less, and could put more money towards seasteading with the money I get to keep.
Well I'm a libertarian too, and I kind of care about living somewhere that has a chance of becoming libertopia. You can say all you want about no evidence to suggest NH becoming it, but I know of no other place that even has a chance. Perhaps seasteading, but that doesn't exist yet so one can't move there.
So instead of providing any evidence that NH could become "libertopia", you're just going to say nowhere else has a chance? What makes you think NH has a chance?
All of your arguments for while NH will work amount to "WHAT IF IT WORKS?!" "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE!", which as an grossly unrealistic attitude. What if next year the government collapses and everyone starts a life of voluntaryism?
All evidence shows that the US as a whole is getting less free and NH is getting less free. 5 years ago you could have said the same thing, but look, here we are, 5 years later and we're less free than we were before, and I would strongly suspect it will be the same another 5 years from now.
I won't deny that Zug or seasteading may be better, but is there any movement in Zug? And how long until seasteading can accept mass migration? You don't have to live out your last days in New Hampshire. There is a movement in parts of New Hampshire. You can go there and get involved and then move on to something better when it comes along.
That's exactly my attitude. Except I don't believe that NH is likely to get any freer in the next 20 years, regardless of the FSPs efforts.
As I've said in the past, I think NH is a great idea if you just want to be around other libertarians, live in one of the freest US states, and maybe influence NH to be slightly freer (decrim cannabis seems a realistic goal in the next 5-10 years to me) but all the LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES EVERYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME hero stuff is grossly unrealistic and disingenuous.
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Fatcat, you're arguing with devout believers. It's like trying to talk sense into a Muslim.
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Jesus! I didn't think this thread would go so far. I just want to make clear one time that I don't have a side in this debate. I don't think the FSP is a failure, I just don't want to move there at this point in my life.
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If NH becomes libertopia, you can always change your mind.
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If NH becomes libertopia, you can always change your mind.
BUT IF HE DOENST MOVE THERE ITS NOT GONNA.
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If NH becomes libertopia, you can always change your mind.
BUT IF HE DOENST MOVE THERE ITS NOT GONNA.
IT'S ALREADY WORKING.
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If NH becomes libertopia, you can always change your mind.
BUT IF HE DOENST MOVE THERE ITS NOT GONNA.
IT'S ALREADY WORKING.
:lol:
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Also, ignore Boner Joe's posts. He is just a shit stirrer with nothing of value to say.
lol ^_^
Your mother is a whore.
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Also, ignore Boner Joe's posts. He is just a shit stirrer with nothing of value to say.
Always the FSP koolaid drinkers with this opinion...
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Fatcat, you're arguing with devout believers. It's like trying to talk sense into a Muslim.
Nah, he convinced me a couple of days ago.
I can't remember a straight answer from him to this question, though:
What do you think we should do to achieve liberty?
I particularly like MacFall's answer:
A combination of very small-scale (geographically speaking) political secession achieved through the saturation of local governments with libertarian activists, and widespread individual secession achieved through counter-economic activity.
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Fatcat, you're arguing with devout believers. It's like trying to talk sense into a Muslim.
I wouldn't classify myself as a devout believer in the FSP. Cause if I did decide to move. I am just pointing out in advance I won't sign up for the FSP. The thing that will motivate me to move to NH or any state is an improved quality of life. I would be highly politically sympathetic but I would be more likely to act like a submarine. A submarine is an individual who identifies themselves as a Democrat or Republican but is really a Libertarian.
It could be an option for some people. Realizing it would be difficult to avoid some of the socials. But considering what happened with the family that owns horses. Possibly FSP members are being targeted for harassment. And that would go against my requirement for an improved quality of life before I would consider a move to NH.
I do agree BJ there are some people who are devout believers in the FSP and no argument will shake them. But I tend to see it as like trying to talk sense into a Zionist.
So ultimately I hold no ill will toward DontTreadOnMike for choosing Colorado. It is on our short list along with Montana, Alaska, and New Hampshire. We just realize this location is not the place to stay due to the growing oppression. But the medical marijuana thing did push Alaska and Colorado ahead of Montana and New Hampshire for the time being.
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Fatcat, you're arguing with devout believers. It's like trying to talk sense into a Muslim.
Nah, he convinced me a couple of days ago.
What is this feeling, in my chest? Is it joy?
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Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
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Switzerland is far away. It is difficult to move there and get a job. It isn't an option for most of us and it is silly to suggest it.
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And Zug is harsh on homeschooling.
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Fatcat, you're arguing with devout believers. It's like trying to talk sense into a Muslim.
What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment talking to a brick wall.
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Fatcat, you're arguing with devout believers. It's like trying to talk sense into a Muslim.
What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment talking to a brick wall.
That's what happens when you are an idiot.
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And Zug is harsh on homeschooling.
Yup.
Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
While Switzerland firearm restriction is a lot more than some US states, "severe restriction" is an overstatement in my opinion. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, and I believe the highest in europe.
The signing of the Schwengen treaty certainly is a bad sign, and gun regulation is likely to get worse.
Other things that are shit about Switzerland :
Mandatory Health Insurance
Compulsory military training (with some bullshit opt out)
Tough immigration
Probably some other shit I don't remember right now.
Its by no means perfect, and its by no means much freer than anywhere else in the world. However if you take a broad spectrum approach to liberty Zug is definately a high ranker. There are countries with practically 0 tax, but they will fucking destroy your life over a few grams of cannabis.
If you have one issue that matters to you that much, then it makes sense to go to those places that are extremely free in one respect but not at all free in others.
You can find many places that outstrip Switzerland by a mile in very specific areas. However I don't think theres one area where Switzerland is particularly bad in, and its fairly strong across the board, economically and personally.
For me taxes are a big issue. In America you pay tripple in federal income tax or corporate tax as you would in Switzerland. In NH unless you have a house more expensive than $100,000 you will pay more in state tax than in Zug even if you make over $110,000 a year.
Switzerland also has no capital gains tax whereas in U.S it can be up to 35%.
Switzerland is far away. It is difficult to move there and get a job. It isn't an option for most of us and it is silly to suggest it.
If you own your own business and can afford to employ 1 Swiss employee (bearing in mind theres no minimum wage) you can move to Switzerland pretty much immediately. In an age where starting an online business is trivially easy, its not really a difficult task. Or if you work for a big company that has offices in Switzerland (which many do for tax reasons) then you can ask for a transfer. You can also go down the whole sham marriage route. Certainly immigration is no work in the park, but "isn't an option" is just bunk.
I guess I'm not included in "most of us", because from what I've read its equally difficult to pass US immigration as it is to pass Swiss immigration.
My argument has never been that NH is a bad place for libertarians, if you're moving because NH is freer than where you are, and you want to be around more libertarians, then I think its a good decision, but LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMES is grossly unrealistic expectation, and I think its misleading to tell other libertarians to expect it, with nothing more than wishful thinking and a handful of "What ifs?" to back it up.
I think it would be a victory for US libertarians if they even kept NH as free as it is now, and there are certainly freedoms that are not too difficult to achieve at the state level (decrimmed marijuana, possibly even legal prostitution with alot of work), but theres such a thing as setting your hopes too high. Getting thrown in jail for recording in a coutroom lobby and expecting the state to collapse is a massive waste of time.
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Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?
I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect. Some people do, and thats fine. Guns are fun. I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it. So those restrictions don't really concern me. Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy.
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Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?
I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect. Some people do, and thats fine. Guns are fun. I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it. So those restrictions don't really concern me. Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy.
It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.
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Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?
I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect. Some people do, and thats fine. Guns are fun. I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it. So those restrictions don't really concern me. Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy.
It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.
Yeah, I get that. But guess what?
Theres no such place.
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I don't like that Switzerland is land locked.
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I don't like that Switzerland is land locked.
Probably why they've been Switzerland for a millennium.
But yea, towing my yacht over the alps would suck.
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NH is the place to be. Why? fatcat won't bother you there. ;)
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Its not like your missing much.
If living in New Hampshire coincides with your other plans, then I would recommend being engaged in the NH liberty movement, however the idea that NH is somehow some holy grail of freedom (liberty in our lifetimes LOL), or even some last bastion of American liberty is a joke, and entirely out of touch with the facts on the ground.
Its been nearly 10 years since foundation, and only 720 people have actually moved, hundreds who were already living in NH at the time. The deadline to get 20,000 sign ups by 2006 failed, the deadline to get the first 1000 by end of 2008 failed.
The fact that only 300 or so libertarians in New Hampshire (0.02%) actually signed up for the FSP tells you all you need to know about the raging hard-on voluntaryists and their grandiose grand standing.
The whole idea was to get such a concentration of libertarians that they could actually make a meaningful change. Now NH libbers are still carrying the whole mantra that the FSP is OH SO IMPORTANT, when the whole dynamic has changed.
It failed, get over it.
Now there can still be an NH liberty movement, but the aims need to scale to the reality. You're looking at maybe 500 people a year (at the most optimistic), or even less, given that a large percentage of FSP sign ups are likely to be unfulfilled.
This is not Liberty in your lifetime, its a bunch of libertarians together, trying shit and not getting very far, just like there are all over the country, all over the world, so give up the fucking hero complex.
The best you can hope for is to re-arrange the deckchairs (i.e. aim for weed decrim or some other fringe liberty), while the Fed goes to town on your liberties, or move country.
wait.....
THEY STOPPED THE SEATBELT BILL!!!!!!!
in short : ignore the faggots who are going to act like you're shitting on the world because you won't join their happy fun club.
In other words:
"I've given up, I want you to give up too to sooth my ego. Cause you know, it's logical and stuff. AND IT DOESN"T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY EMOTIONS!!!!"
Anyway, I am here in Colorado right now. I can tell you it is nice here. Can't say we have lot's of freedom, but since New Yorkers, Californians and even Texans are all moving here because they hate their home states I can imagine those other places are worse. I've only met one person from New Hampshire though. She said she was going back.
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Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?
I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect. Some people do, and thats fine. Guns are fun. I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it. So those restrictions don't really concern me. Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy.
It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.
Yeah, I get that. But guess what?
Theres no such place.
So I shouldn't pick a place which has the least restrictions as possible?
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Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?
I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect. Some people do, and thats fine. Guns are fun. I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it. So those restrictions don't really concern me. Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy.
It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.
Yeah, I get that. But guess what?
Theres no such place.
So I shouldn't pick a place which has the least restrictions as possible?
NH is that place, bonehead.
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NH is that place, bonehead.
[youtube=425,350]1ytCEuuW2_A[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A
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Bonerjoe needs to move up to the palatial estates here in gorgeous Belleville, Michigan, and join the ranks of the power elite.
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Bonerjoe needs to move up to the palatial estates here in gorgeous Belleville, Michigan, and join the ranks of the power elite.
Yeah, maybe.
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Mahatma Gandhi’s methods for converting an opponent
Conversion is the process by which an opponent comes around to embrace your objectives.
1 Refrain from violence and hostility.
2 Attempt to obtain your opponent’s trust through
...~ Truthfulness
...~ Openness about intentions
...~ Chivalry (kindness if the other side experiences an unrelated difficulty)
...~ Making behavior inoffensive without compromising the issue at hand
3 Refrain from humiliating an opponent.
4 Make visible sacrifices for one’s cause.
...Ideally, make the suffering of the aggrieved visible.
5 Carry on constructive work. Address parts of the problem you can address.
...Make improvements where you can. Participate in activities regarded by
...everyone as benefitting everyone.
6 Maintain contact with the opponent.
...This is absolutely necessary if conversion is to succeed.
7 Demonstrate trust in the opponent.
8 Develop empathy, good will and patience toward the opponent.
This is the best you can do from your end. External conditions may still prevent conversion.
Ghandi was one man.He brought down a government.That is all.....
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This is the best you can do from your end. External conditions may still prevent conversion.
Ghandi was one man.He brought down a government.That is all.....
I was with you until these parts.
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Ghandi was one man.He brought down a government.That is all.....
I dont think they had a combination of tv, beer, or as much wealth during that time. Let alone it was another nation imposing itself upon them. A lot of differences incurred that allowed ghandi to get the people to work together.
This is the best you can do from your end. External conditions may still prevent conversion.
I was with you until these parts.
what do you mean about the first part? You dont think someone could be so indoctrinated and/or stubborn to listen to reason?
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Switzerland severely restricts personal firearm ownership. I'm not talking about machine guns here, I'm talking about even hunting rifles. Fuck that shit.
Does this bother you as a hobbyist, or does it bother you on a paranoia - preparedness level?
I can understand wanting some firepower under the bed, but I don't really care about the hobby aspect. Some people do, and thats fine. Guns are fun. I could hide one in the house and be happy, don't have to use it. So those restrictions don't really concern me. Unless things have changed, I always thought Swiss expected their citizens to keep a rifle handy.
It bothers me on the "I should be able to do what I want as long as I'm not initiating force" level.
Yeah, I get that. But guess what?
Theres no such place.
So I shouldn't pick a place which has the least restrictions as possible?
Thats the basic thing that makes Zug attractive. Its a trade off. There are other places, Costa Rica has a large ex-pat population. You know all this.
Anyway, I think the trade-off is acceptable. Going down the checklist, there seems to be more green checkmarks in Zug's column. Not that I intend to go anywhere in the next several years. I'll probably end up in the Bahamas.
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Anyway, I think the trade-off is acceptable. Going down the checklist, there seems to be more green checkmarks in Zug's column. Not that I intend to go anywhere in the next several years. I'll probably end up in the Bahamas.
There are some basic things on my list that make a place totally unacceptable, and Switzerland fails.
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Switzerland sucks. That's all there is to it.
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The "trade off" is the problem, I think. Moving to an area because it more closely meets your defintion if freedom is good but it does nothing to account for the changes that will eliminate those freedoms. New Hampshire MIGHT, but doesn't yet, effectivly combat that problem.
Conservatives piss me off. The conservative vestige of measuring "freedom" by the tax rate also pisses me off.
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In other words:
"I've given up, I want you to give up too to sooth my ego. Cause you know, it's logical and stuff. AND IT DOESN"T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY EMOTIONS!!!!"
Anyway, I am here in Colorado right now. I can tell you it is nice here. Can't say we have lot's of freedom, but since New Yorkers, Californians and even Texans are all moving here because they hate their home states I can imagine those other places are worse. I've only met one person from New Hampshire though. She said she was going back.
No, in other words lots of FSP members are deceitful about what can realistically be expected from the FSP, and I don't agree with them misleading other libertarians.
If they say :
"Move to NH, its one of the freest states in america, you get to spend time with other libertarians, and who knows, maybe in a few years we can help push through cannabis decrim, and stop other bullshit laws getting passed"
Then I have absolutely no problem with that.
The ones saying:
FSP IS THE ONLY HOPE FOR TOTAL LIBERTY! IF YOU ARENT MOVING TO NEW HAMPSHIRE YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME!
are being highly disingenuous, especially when most of the "evidence" used to show how NH might become freer amounts to a bunch of half assed hypothetical "What if?/you don't know/who knows what will happen in the future/it might work!/what else has a chance?", and all the actual hard facts show that in total pretty much every US state is becoming less free.
Draw yourself a graph of freedoms in NH, and America in general over the last 100 years. That's one hell of a downward trend.
Do things ever suddenly change for the better? Sometimes, but trends are trends for a reason, I don't plan to live my life based on the expectation of a really really long shot. Based on the current rate of government growth, NH is very likely to be less free 10 years from now than it is now, much like most other places in the world.
Does this mean no one should do anything for freedom? Of course not. I've never said people should under no circumstance move to NH. What I have said is that people shouldn't move with the (unrealistic) expectation that they will achieve any sort of "libertopia", and people definitely shouldn't be misleading other libertarians to believe these things.
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Ghandi was one man.He brought down a government.That is all.....
Yeah, it was one man, it wasn't like there were millions of other indians active in the indian independence movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence)....
:roll:
Also he didn't bring down a government, he just changed which one had the power over millions of indians.
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The "trade off" is the problem, I think. Moving to an area because it more closely meets your defintion if freedom is good but it does nothing to account for the changes that will eliminate those freedoms. New Hampshire MIGHT, but doesn't yet, effectivly combat that problem.
Conservatives piss me off. The conservative vestige of measuring "freedom" by the tax rate also pisses me off.
The problem with this is believing two completely different societies are moving in parallel arcs.
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Conservatives piss me off.
NH is pretty "conservative". They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
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Ghandi was one man.He brought down a government.That is all.....
Yeah, it was one man, it wasn't like there were millions of other indians active in the indian independence movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence)....
:roll:
Also he didn't bring down a government, he just changed which one had the power over millions of indians.
...and he was a racist, thinking one group of people were better than others based on their skin color. it still amazes me that fsp zealots hold him up like some kind of hero for freedom.
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Conservatives piss me off.
NH is pretty "conservative". They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
& turning more liberal by the fucking minute, me friend
seatbelt laws
smoking bans
more taxes on every-fucking-thing
get this, a fucking 9% tax on CAMPSITES, under room & meals....cocksuckers....i bring the fucking room & the meals
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Conservatives piss me off.
NH is pretty "conservative". They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
& turning more liberal by the fucking minute, me friend
seatbelt laws
smoking bans
more taxes on every-fucking-thing
get this, a fucking 9% tax on CAMPSITES, under room & meals....cocksuckers....i bring the fucking room & the meals
Join the campers union.
You'd still have to pay $20 a week, every week, on top of the tax, but you would be guaranteed a place to camp.
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
I said conservatives, not conservative places. Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand. I drink beer, not liquor, and compared to the illegality of selling beer at grocery stores, New Hampshire is actually a bit more lax than where I'm currently at.
That said... When we wanna see cute women dancing nekkid around here, my wife and I head to the West Virginia panhandle which is considered both redneck and conservative...
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Conservatives piss me off.
NH is pretty "conservative". They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
& turning more liberal by the fucking minute, me friend
seatbelt laws
smoking bans
more taxes on every-fucking-thing
get this, a fucking 9% tax on CAMPSITES, under room & meals....cocksuckers....i bring the fucking room & the meals
Join the campers union.
You'd still have to pay $20 a week, every week, on top of the tax, but you would be guaranteed a place to camp.
I didn't realize so many people were paying for campsites. I don't think I've paid for a campsite since I went to Yosemite like 10 years ago. Camping is free on BLM land.
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
I said conservatives, not conservative places. Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand. I drink beer, not liquor, and compared to the illegality of selling beer at grocery stores, New Hampshire is actually a bit more lax than where I'm currently at.
That said... When we wanna see cute women dancing nekkid around here, my wife and I head to the West Virginia panhandle which is considered both redneck and conservative...
You take your wife to strip clubs? Cool woman.
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FSP IS THE ONLY HOPE FOR TOTAL LIBERTY! IF YOU ARENT MOVING TO NEW HAMPSHIRE YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME!
You are saying that the chances of liberty are hopeless everywhere. We are saying it is hopeless everywhere except where you see a bunch of people gathered together to fight for it.
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FSP IS THE ONLY HOPE FOR TOTAL LIBERTY! IF YOU ARENT MOVING TO NEW HAMPSHIRE YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME!
You are saying that the chances of liberty are hopeless everywhere. We are saying it is hopeless everywhere except where you see a bunch of people gathered together to fight for it.
I'm with EM on this.
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FSP IS THE ONLY HOPE FOR TOTAL LIBERTY! IF YOU ARENT MOVING TO NEW HAMPSHIRE YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME!
You are saying that the chances of liberty are hopeless everywhere. We are saying it is hopeless everywhere except where you see a bunch of people gathered together to fight for it.
I'm with EM on this.
Good luck with your fight.
I'm not looking for a fight.
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FSP IS THE ONLY HOPE FOR TOTAL LIBERTY! IF YOU ARENT MOVING TO NEW HAMPSHIRE YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME!
You are saying that the chances of liberty are hopeless everywhere. We are saying it is hopeless everywhere except where you see a bunch of people gathered together to fight for it.
I never once brought up the word "hopeless".
Personally I think the Seasteading institute has the most realistic opportunity of getting "liberty in our lifetimes", and hope to get involved with it as soon as possible.
I think FSP NH is a good idea, so long as people moving are not being mislead about what to expect. Slow down the rate at which things get worse? Definitely a realistic goal for the FSP. Decriminalize Cannabis? Also an admirable goal.
Getting yourself thrown in jail and hoping the government to give up as a result is not a realistic expectation, its a waste of time. Even if by some miracle NH started getting freer, increases in Federal Government would most likely negate any progress made.
Obama to raise taxes to pay for "public healthcare" (http://in.reuters.com/article/marketsNewsUS/idINN1428055020090714), not to mention the amount of money thats being pissed away on "financial stimulus", or that Obama has stated he wants to make the Assault Weapons ban permanent.
You saying that I'm in favor of "hopelessness" is exactly the polemic bullshit I've come to expect from NH FSP supporters. Everything has to be some big fucking hero act. NH is the only hope, everything else is a waste of time, there's no chance anywhere else etc etc.
Anyone who doesn't think NH is the holy fucking grail cannot possibly have a viable alternative, their either lazy, deluded or wants people to give up, because the FSP is so important and its going to achieve so much.
All this is based purely on supposition. NH is not the freest place in the world, and theres little to no evidence to suggest it is likely to become the freest place in the world. Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it so. The entire emphasis in the NH lib movement seems to be on ideology and how hard people are trying, not how much they're actually changing.
Its always "you don't know what might happen", not "look at whats happening". Which is understandable since NH is getting worse every year and most people don't like realistically addressing negative things.
As far as I can see FSP libertarians are fighting a losing battle for freedom in NH (as in NH is getting less free, not more). As admirable that might be purely in terms of effort, it doesn't mean anything is getting done, and the attitude that "the only chance is when people get together in one place", also ignores the fact its also perfectly possible (and likely) that people getting together in NH is going to achieve nothing or pretty close to nothing.
Although I understand how its easy to castigate anyone who disagrees with you as a naysayer who just wants everyone to give up.
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(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/171/fspgoodluckwiththat.jpg)
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Actually, things are getting better in Grafton.
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Actually, things are getting better in Grafton.
Like what?
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand.
Actually, no. You have to get a permit. This is why there are a total of three operating in NH. The fix is in, they are grandfathered.
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand.
Actually, no. You have to get a permit. This is why there are a total of three operating in NH. The fix is in, they are grandfathered.
That clinches it. I'm staying the F out of NH.
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand.
Actually, no. You have to get a permit. This is why there are a total of three operating in NH. The fix is in, they are grandfathered.
That clinches it. I'm staying the F out of NH.
You could always drive across the border to another state with more strip clubs if that's your thing.
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FSP IS THE ONLY HOPE FOR TOTAL LIBERTY! IF YOU ARENT MOVING TO NEW HAMPSHIRE YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME!
You are saying that the chances of liberty are hopeless everywhere. We are saying it is hopeless everywhere except where you see a bunch of people gathered together to fight for it.
I never once brought up the word "hopeless".
Personally I think the Seasteading institute has the most realistic opportunity of getting "liberty in our lifetimes", and hope to get involved with it as soon as possible.
I think FSP NH is a good idea, so long as people moving are not being mislead about what to expect. Slow down the rate at which things get worse? Definitely a realistic goal for the FSP. Decriminalize Cannabis? Also an admirable goal.
Getting yourself thrown in jail and hoping the government to give up as a result is not a realistic expectation, its a waste of time. Even if by some miracle NH started getting freer, increases in Federal Government would most likely negate any progress made.
Obama to raise taxes to pay for "public healthcare" (http://in.reuters.com/article/marketsNewsUS/idINN1428055020090714), not to mention the amount of money thats being pissed away on "financial stimulus", or that Obama has stated he wants to make the Assault Weapons ban permanent.
You saying that I'm in favor of "hopelessness" is exactly the polemic bullshit I've come to expect from NH FSP supporters. Everything has to be some big fucking hero act. NH is the only hope, everything else is a waste of time, there's no chance anywhere else etc etc.
Anyone who doesn't think NH is the holy fucking grail cannot possibly have a viable alternative, their either lazy, deluded or wants people to give up, because the FSP is so important and its going to achieve so much.
All this is based purely on supposition. NH is not the freest place in the world, and theres little to no evidence to suggest it is likely to become the freest place in the world. Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it so. The entire emphasis in the NH lib movement seems to be on ideology and how hard people are trying, not how much they're actually changing.
Its always "you don't know what might happen", not "look at whats happening". Which is understandable since NH is getting worse every year and most people don't like realistically addressing negative things.
As far as I can see FSP libertarians are fighting a losing battle for freedom in NH (as in NH is getting less free, not more). As admirable that might be purely in terms of effort, it doesn't mean anything is getting done, and the attitude that "the only chance is when people get together in one place", also ignores the fact its also perfectly possible (and likely) that people getting together in NH is going to achieve nothing or pretty close to nothing.
Although I understand how its easy to castigate anyone who disagrees with you as a naysayer who just wants everyone to give up.
Everything you've been saying suggests that you believe the situation to be hopeless. You have stated that the best we can do is either slow down the march of the government juggernaut or run away and hide somewhere. You believe that anyone who thinks that they can move us towards becoming a free and open society is simply being unrealistic. Though I have to wonder how it is that you can honestly believe that you know what is an unrealistic expectation. You are not here. You do not know about even half of the activity that is going on. You have little understanding of the political institutions of New Hampshire or of the United States. You do not understand the political character of the people who are here. Hell, I doubt you even have an understanding of history.
We're losing the fight for freedom? Bullshit. We have barely begun the fight here. We are picking up strength and momentum and they are losing their strength and momentum. We are gaining experience. We are gaining new recruits. They are not. We are more dedicated. We are more passionate. They have to pay their people to do the things that many free staters are willing to do.
All you have is passed judgment on where we are now. You have failed to see how the current situation will lead to the next. Obama is pushing for a new tax is your evidence that we are failing? Absolutely not. It will simply provide another spring board for our success. Lest you forget that the reason we no longer live under the British yoke is because we rebelled because of their taxes. Rome collapsed under the weight of their tax system. Spain lost their world wide empire because of their tax system.
You can continue to point out the loss of freedoms and think that is evidence of our failure or you can realize that the government is simply painting itself into a corner and creating the conditions for its own downfall. They are destroying the economy. The government is nearly bankrupt, we are fighting wars the majority oppose, they are increasing taxes, they are passing more and more laws. The government is simply setting the stage for our success.
But you know better than all of us. You have some kind of expertise that only comes only from sitting thousands of miles away and looking at the world through a lens of pessimism.
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand.
Actually, no. You have to get a permit. This is why there are a total of three operating in NH. The fix is in, they are grandfathered.
That clinches it. I'm staying the F out of NH.
You could always drive across the border to another state with more strip clubs if that's your thing.
I've been mentioning this for three years. Its not the clubs themselves that are important, but the mindset of the people who call the shots. Its very tight-assed to restrict a lucerative, private business that is normally safer than ordinary bars. These clubs have bouncers and usually don't allow any shennanigans in the parking lot.
But hey, as long as y'all have your guns... who cares if they control what kind of establishment you can operate.
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand.
Actually, no. You have to get a permit. This is why there are a total of three operating in NH. The fix is in, they are grandfathered.
I thought it was done at the local level, mostly using zoning rules.
http://www.town.rindge.nh.us/SEXUALLY_20ORIENTED_20BUS_202006.pdf
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But hey, as long as y'all have your guns... who cares if they control what kind of establishment you can operate.
This is one of the trade-off deals for me. I couldn't care less about strip clubs and bars.
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They don't really have many strip clubs, and they have state run liquor stores.
Lack of strip clubs is always fixable if there's demand.
Actually, no. You have to get a permit. This is why there are a total of three operating in NH. The fix is in, they are grandfathered.
That clinches it. I'm staying the F out of NH.
You could always drive across the border to another state with more strip clubs if that's your thing.
I've been mentioning this for three years. Its not the clubs themselves that are important, but the mindset of the people who call the shots. Its very tight-assed to restrict a lucerative, private business that is normally safer than ordinary bars. These clubs have bouncers and usually don't allow any shennanigans in the parking lot.
But hey, as long as y'all have your guns... who cares if they control what kind of establishment you can operate.
It's the state run liquor stores that kill it for me.
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It's the influx of liberal people running away from other New England states that does it for me.
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Everything you've been saying suggests that you believe the situation to be hopeless. You have stated that the best we can do is either slow down the march of the government juggernaut or run away and hide somewhere.
No.
Not thinking 200 years of state growth can be turned around with 0.05% of a population and a bunch of wishful thinking DOES NOT EQUAL being hopeless.
I think its quite possible that there will be some form of viable libertarian seastead mini-society within the next 20 years. How exactly is this hopeless?
You can continue to point out the loss of freedoms and think that is evidence of our failure or you can realize that the government is simply painting itself into a corner and creating the conditions for its own downfall. They are destroying the economy. The government is nearly bankrupt, we are fighting wars the majority oppose, they are increasing taxes, they are passing more and more laws. The government is simply setting the stage for our success.
Yeah, the fact you're losing more liberties every year is a sure sign that you're winning. :roll:
This is exactly the unrealistic attitude I have talked about FSPers having. Even the failures are a sign of success. Confirmation bias in the extreme.
You could have said this at any time in the last 50 years. That the government getting bigger just means its closer to collapse, and that people will start hating it and it will backlash into freedom. Except it never happens.
Yes empires do fall, but if thats your entire argument, theres absolutely no reason for me to move to NH while its getting less free, why don't I just sit back, wait for the government to collapse, then move when its libertopia?
and seriously what the fuck is all this "running away and hiding" stuff? Can FSPers have any discussion without accusing other people of being lazy cowards?
I don't live in America. Its equally arduous for me to move to America as it would be to move to Switzerland. How is going to Switzerland running away but America not?
Who the fuck wouldn't want to run away from the UK?
For me, taxes and personal freedoms are a big deal. So Switzerland ranks slightly above anywhere in America. I feel that the legal prostitution, euthanasia, no minimum wage and very tolerant drug policy (including a pretty much legal cannabis market in many parts of Switzerland), and the extremely low taxes (particularly for high earners) outweigh the fact there is stronger gun regulation, mandatory military training (with opt out), compulsory health insurance, and a bunch of other unlibertarian shit.
I don't hold anything against someone who finds Switzerland unappealing. I hold no loyalty to the place, and if you have a "main issue" that Switzerland doesn't cater to, I would highly discourage you from moving .
What I do have a problem with is people telling me I'm a coward or wasting my time for wanting to move a place where I can have the freedoms I want, and other libertarians lying about the opportunities available and what to expect from things like the FSP
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We are gaining experience. We are gaining new recruits. They are not.
Actually, the birth rate and immigration rate of non libertarians to NH is far greater than the immigration and birth rate of libertarians within NH, so you're not actually gaining shit.
FSPers in NH currently make up less than 0.05% of the NH population, and 0.0002% of the national population. On average 37 people a year have moved to NH per year since the FSP started. Now obviously people weren't being told to move, but its the only numbers we have, don't worry, I'll be more than generous later*
300 people didn't show up who signed the first 1000, and i think around 300-400 where already living in New Hampshire, so in actuality only 300 people have actually moved to New Hampshire as part of the FSP. If the First 1000 movement had 30% not show up, its unlikely the Next 5000 will have better results.
The NH population has increased by 100,000 since 2000, roughly 12,500 per year. 0.3% of these signed up for the FSP, and I'll be generous and say another 1% of these are libertarians aswell. This still means 98.7% of new immigrants/births are not libertarians.
In other words for every 37 people who move to New Hampshire as part of the FSP, 12,474 will move who aren't, and the vast majority of those aren't libertarians, and will never be libertarians.
* = Now you might say, well the FSP is only just starting, the growth is going to keep increasing. Even if the rate of movers increased by 10 times, the majority of people moving to NH will still be non Libertarians. Hell, I'll be even more generous, lets assume every 1 FSP members is worth 10 state supporters because they are SO good at getting shit done.
Even then, value adjusted FSP members would only make up 30% of population increases.
But hey, why let a thing like facts stop you making up shit to make the FSP sound good.
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300 people didn't show up who signed the first 1000, and i think around 300-400 where already living in New Hampshire, so in actuality only 300 people have actually moved to New Hampshire as part of the FSP. If the First 1000 movement had 30% not show up, its unlikely the Next 5000 will have better results.
You shouldn't mix the first 1000 and the FSP numbers. The first 1000 had no requirement to join the FSP.
There were 255 FSP members in state when NH was chosen.
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300 people didn't show up who signed the first 1000, and i think around 300-400 where already living in New Hampshire, so in actuality only 300 people have actually moved to New Hampshire as part of the FSP. If the First 1000 movement had 30% not show up, its unlikely the Next 5000 will have better results.
You shouldn't mix the first 1000 and the FSP numbers. The first 1000 had no requirement to join the FSP.
There were 255 FSP members in state when NH was chosen.
Well I admit that the numbers are on the rough side, FSP don't really keep clear historic records (to my knowledge).
I just used the "720 already in new hampshire" on the FSP site, plus what I remembered from the start of the First 1000, i thought it was around 300 people already in New Hampshire when the First 1000 started.
Is there a alternative source the FSP site for numbers on how many "First 1000" actually moved?
Anyway, as I went to lengths to prove, even if you multiply my numbers by 100, FSP members are getting smaller as a percentage of the population, so Evil Muppets point about "we're getting bigger, they're not" is still dud.
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Yes, so did Shaw.
Jason Sorens used his visit to NH to count as fulfilling his first 1000 requirement.
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It's the influx of liberal people running away from other New England states that does it for me.
Theres no state that doesn't have an effective liberal population. Things are too close to call these days, it seems like everything is 51/49 and it shifts back and forth like a pendulum. People were so enraged with Boosh that they would've voted for PeeWee Herman, now it'll slide the other way in a greasy film of night-terror sweats with former liberals suddenly turned hardline.
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Actually, things are getting better in Grafton.
Like what?
What has been accomplished in Grafton in 5 years?
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But hey, as long as y'all have your guns... who cares if they control what kind of establishment you can operate.
This is one of the trade-off deals for me. I couldn't care less about strip clubs and bars.
I seem to remember a heated discussion a few months ago, where we agreed to disagree about the importance of unregulated firearm ownership. Your position was there should be absolutely no regulation regarding the various concerns; full auto, ballistics, and no documentation.
You honestly believe a lack of firearm regulations and registry is more importanrt than the freedom to conduct business? I feel the need to remind you, business is where you buy the guns.
You should be free to open a business of your choice, and operate within the guidelines. If there were three licensed gun dealers in NH, you'd have a very different opinion. But the point is not whether they sell tits and beer, guns, cars, or groceries, its that they require a license to operate, and can be denied. However, if the applicant is in observance of the requirements, *poof* you should be licensed. It doesn't matter if every tom dick and harry opens a gun shop every ten feet. The number of establishments is not the objective of licensure.
Picking and choosing what's a concern based on your opinion of what they sell is not cool. Consistancy is important. Never once, despite my ambivolent feelings of firearms, have I held the opinion it doesn't matter if they're restricted from general ownership. I've maintained a consistant opinion that you should present valid identification to purchase and/or distribute. If there is an application process for ownership of more controversial designs, so be it. Its not as if they're being denied to the population as a whole, they can be acquired by the common citizen.
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Who the fuck wouldn't want to run away from the UK?[/b]
For me, taxes and personal freedoms are a big deal. So Switzerland ranks slightly above anywhere in America. I feel that the legal prostitution, euthanasia, no minimum wage and very tolerant drug policy (including a pretty much legal cannabis market in many parts of Switzerland), and the extremely low taxes (particularly for high earners) outweigh the fact there is stronger gun regulation, mandatory military training (with opt out), compulsory health insurance, and a bunch of other unlibertarian shit.
I don't hold anything against someone who finds Switzerland unappealing. I hold no loyalty to the place, and if you have a "main issue" that Switzerland doesn't cater to, I would highly discourage you from moving .
What I do have a problem with is people telling me I'm a coward or wasting my time for wanting to move a place where I can have the freedoms I want, and other libertarians lying about the opportunities available and what to expect from things like the FSP
I agree there are other states even in the USA which offer more of the freedoms I care about than what is available in NH. But this isn't to say that NH isn't the right combination for some people.
I would think Switzerland would be difficult since they aren't part of the EU. I heard they have some of the most restrictive immigration laws in Europe. But if you are from the UK then the USA immigration restrictions would also be difficult.
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I agree there are other states even in the USA which offer more of the freedoms I care about than what is available in NH. But this isn't to say that NH isn't the right combination for some people.
Agreed.
I have no problem with people moving to NH if they want:
A) To be around other libertarians
B) Be in one of the freest states in USA
C) Work with other libertarians to try and keep the state free
I do have a problem is the constant misleading and holier-than-thou attitude alot of FSPers have.
I think the most realistic goal for the FSP is to slow the increase of the state, maybe push through a decrim weed bill, maybe stop seatbelt law going through.
Possibly in 50-70 years NH might be in a position to become totally free, if the Federal government has dissolved, but nothing happening today shows its likely for NH and America in general to get less free, and relying on "anything could happen in the future" is not a sensible attitude to base moving across the world on.
And saying that FSP is the only chance for true freedom, and moving anywhere else amounts to cowardly running away is a ridiculous statement to make.
I would think Switzerland would be difficult since they aren't part of the EU. I heard they have some of the most restrictive immigration laws in Europe. But if you are from the UK then the USA immigration restrictions would also be difficult.
Also true.
Switzerland not being part of the EU is a benefit and a burden in certain areas. Immigration in Switzerland is extremely tight, although if you own your own business its relatively simple. If you have a turnover of over I think £60,000, and you can afford to hire one swiss citizen (given that theres no minimum wage), then immigration is practically automatic from what I've had (though whether its as simple in reality remains to be seen).
The Canton of Zug has almost as many businesses as people for this very reason.
Also as far as comments about NH being special because it has such a big liberty movement, is a little myopic to suggest no other places in the world have libertarians working for freedom.
In fact the 3rd largest political party (Free democratic Party), got 15.8% of the vote (30 out of 200 seats) in the last election, the next biggest party getting 19%.
From the Wikipedia on Free Democratic Party of Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_of_Switzerland)
As a classical liberal party, the FDP's goal is to promote freedom and self-responsibility in the society and economy.
The party has the opinion that an open society and economic liberalism promoting economic competition guarantees more prosperity and social and economic stability than a redistributive state.
The party supports an easy tax code and low taxes along with tax competition among the cantons of Switzerland. It also supports a state without excessive bureaucracy and over-regulation which hampers economic progress. It also aims at lowering the budget deficits and the national debt by lowering government spending. It prefers tax cuts as an economic stimulus measure to subsidies.
Is this proof Switzerland is destined to become Libertopia? No, likely its going to become less free, much like most other places in the world. A Federal bill to completely legalize Cannabis was instigated via Switzerlands system of Direct Democracy, and only lost by 20 votes, so clearly there is potential for libertarian activism.
I expect that I would do as much to support liberty (given that I can't vote as an immigrant) whether I moved to America OR Switzerland.
The idea that NH is the only place in the world you can work with other libertarians to effect a change is blatantly false. And all the rhetoric about NH libbers "fighting for freedom" while everyone else is "running away" is highly insulting.
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No.
Not thinking 200 years of state growth can be turned around with 0.05% of a population and a bunch of wishful thinking DOES NOT EQUAL being hopeless.
I think its quite possible that there will be some form of viable libertarian seastead mini-society within the next 20 years. How exactly is this hopeless?
New Hampshire is unrealistic but a sad parody of a horrible Kevin Costner movie is realistic?
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No.
Not thinking 200 years of state growth can be turned around with 0.05% of a population and a bunch of wishful thinking DOES NOT EQUAL being hopeless.
I think its quite possible that there will be some form of viable libertarian seastead mini-society within the next 20 years. How exactly is this hopeless?
New Hampshire is unrealistic but a sad parody of a horrible Kevin Costner movie is realistic?
Certainly there are obstacles the seasteading. I've never said its a sure thing, or the only opportunity on the table (as opposed to some FSPers).
However, you can buy a boat now, and be pretty much govern-less so long as you aren't dealing with nuclear materials, or shipping large amounts of drugs to a mainland.
All seasteading is is an extension of that idea. Be it linking a bunch of boats together, or a floating platform or a oil rig style stationary platform.
Given that the SI already has
The great hope for Seasteading is that its not a political issue. Its not a matter of taking down a government, or getting people to migrate, or getting people to vote, or a bunch of other hard to control factors. Its logistical.
Get money - build stuff.
But I'd say its significantly more likely that I could be in a seastead 20 years from now buying heroin and paying no tax than doing the same in New Hampshire.
I don't see how calling seasteading a "sad parody" of a "horrible movie" is an effective argument.
Might governments intervene with a seastead? Possibly. Is it a hell of a lot less likely than the US government intervening in New Hampshire? yup.
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Would be nice...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3345/3497468890_76fdfd4294_o.jpg)
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You honestly believe a lack of firearm regulations and registry is more importanrt than the freedom to conduct business? I feel the need to remind you, business is where you buy the guns.
There are firearm regulations, and there are restrictions on the type of business you can conduct. When I compare places that may be better for me to live, I look at the things that affect me. NH gun laws are decent. I don't go to strip clubs or bars, or even drink, so the regulation on those things don't really affect me. I don't have anything against strip clubs or bars, and think NH is silly about some of that stuff.
You should be free to open a business of your choice, and operate within the guidelines.
How it should be, and how it is are two different things. That is why you have to make trade offs.
If there were three licensed gun dealers in NH, you'd have a very different opinion.
I'm not sure that would bother me, as long as I can buy the types of guns I want. I think I have only been to three gun shop in NH. If NH had the same restrictions on guns that MA has, that would be a problem for me.
Picking and choosing what's a concern based on your opinion of what they sell is not cool. Consistancy is important.
I don't know. It's not based on my opinion of what they sell, it based on the fact that I am not a consumer of what they sell. Just like fatcat doesn't really care about the homeschool laws in Zug because it's not something that affects him, strip clubs aren't a big issue for me because I don't frequent them. When I investigate places to live, I look at the issues that affect me. Homeschooling is a bigger issue than guns for me.
That doesn't mean I think strip clubs should be restricted. You have to make some trade-offs some where, so I choose to do it on issues that don't really affect me. If I still drank, the state run liquor stores would piss me off. But I don't, so I don't really care about it.
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Did you sign up as a resident and register to vote?
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Did you sign up as a resident and register to vote?
There is no such thing as signing up as a resident.
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Did you sign up as a resident and register to vote?
Keith, why are you trying to provoke me into committing fraud? Isn't this against FSP bylaws?
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Did you sign up as a resident and register to vote?
There is no such thing as signing up as a resident.
I did it when I moved to NH. You go to the town hall and sign up as a resident. It's free and fun! It allowed me to get a recreation card and beach sticker. The form the town gives you also counts as one form of i.d. at the DMV.
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Did you sign up as a resident and register to vote?
Keith, why are you trying to provoke me into committing fraud? Isn't this against FSP bylaws?
I'm trying to say that if you didn't sign up as a resident or voter, were you really one? Did you get a DL or plate for your car? Did you get a resident carry permit? Did you get a local library card? A local hunting license? If you didn't do any of these things, why did you say you moved to NH for four days?
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Did you sign up as a resident and register to vote?
Keith, why are you trying to provoke me into committing fraud? Isn't this against FSP bylaws?
I'm trying to say that if you didn't sign up as a resident or voter, were you really one? Did you get a DL or plate for your car? Did you get a resident carry permit? Did you get a local library card? A local hunting license? If you didn't do any of these things, why did you say you moved to NH for four days?
Are you that dense to not realize what I said about moving for 4 days was a joke?
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The FSP doesn't have bylaws.
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The FSP doesn't have bylaws.
http://www.freestateproject.org/about/corpbylaws.php
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I don't see how calling seasteading a "sad parody" of a "horrible movie" is an effective argument.
Might governments intervene with a seastead? Possibly. Is it a hell of a lot less likely than the US government intervening in New Hampshire? yup.
yes....james bond movies have already proven it.
plus, if you didn't manage to get wiped out in the 1st 6 mos. by a typhoon, hurricane, tidal wave, you'd go completely mad w/in a year.
and kill/be killed by other equally insane people...
plus, you'd get scurvy
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I did it when I moved to NH. You go to the town hall and sign up as a resident. It's free and fun! It allowed me to get a recreation card and beach sticker. The form the town gives you also counts as one form of i.d. at the DMV.
That is a resident of the town, not the state of NH. People who own property in the town, but are residents of another state can also do that.
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Technically I moved to NH for 4 days. Does that count?
Did you sign up as a resident and register to vote?
Keith, why are you trying to provoke me into committing fraud? Isn't this against FSP bylaws?
I'm trying to say that if you didn't sign up as a resident or voter, were you really one? Did you get a DL or plate for your car? Did you get a resident carry permit? Did you get a local library card? A local hunting license? If you didn't do any of these things, why did you say you moved to NH for four days?
Did Jason Sorens do any of that stuff?
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So did BJ or didn't BJ, the world wants to know!
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So did BJ or didn't BJ, the world wants to know!
Huh?
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Did Jason Sorens do any of that stuff?
don't know about any of it, blacko, but your avatar is highly annoying
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You honestly believe a lack of firearm regulations and registry is more importanrt than the freedom to conduct business? I feel the need to remind you, business is where you buy the guns.
There are firearm regulations, and there are restrictions on the type of business you can conduct. When I compare places that may be better for me to live, I look at the things that affect me. NH gun laws are decent. I don't go to strip clubs or bars, or even drink, so the regulation on those things don't really affect me. I don't have anything against strip clubs or bars, and think NH is silly about some of that stuff.
You should be free to open a business of your choice, and operate within the guidelines.
How it should be, and how it is are two different things. That is why you have to make trade offs.
If there were three licensed gun dealers in NH, you'd have a very different opinion.
I'm not sure that would bother me, as long as I can buy the types of guns I want. I think I have only been to three gun shop in NH. If NH had the same restrictions on guns that MA has, that would be a problem for me.
Picking and choosing what's a concern based on your opinion of what they sell is not cool. Consistancy is important.
I don't know. It's not based on my opinion of what they sell, it based on the fact that I am not a consumer of what they sell. Just like fatcat doesn't really care about the homeschool laws in Zug because it's not something that affects him, strip clubs aren't a big issue for me because I don't frequent them. When I investigate places to live, I look at the issues that affect me. Homeschooling is a bigger issue than guns for me.
That doesn't mean I think strip clubs should be restricted. You have to make some trade-offs some where, so I choose to do it on issues that don't really affect me. If I still drank, the state run liquor stores would piss me off. But I don't, so I don't really care about it.
I can appreciate that, and I guess its the SOP that most people would adopt.
I don't do any of that shit anymore either, and rarely drink. But I think it sets a dangerous precedent to disallow a legal enterprise to all but an elite few.
It kinda makes me wonder who owns those licenses, and who they're connected to.
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Certainly there are obstacles the seasteading. I've never said its a sure thing, or the only opportunity on the table (as opposed to some FSPers).
However, you can buy a boat now, and be pretty much govern-less so long as you aren't dealing with nuclear materials, or shipping large amounts of drugs to a mainland.
All seasteading is is an extension of that idea. Be it linking a bunch of boats together, or a floating platform or a oil rig style stationary platform.
Given that the SI already has
The great hope for Seasteading is that its not a political issue. Its not a matter of taking down a government, or getting people to migrate, or getting people to vote, or a bunch of other hard to control factors. Its logistical.
Get money - build stuff.
But I'd say its significantly more likely that I could be in a seastead 20 years from now buying heroin and paying no tax than doing the same in New Hampshire.
I don't see how calling seasteading a "sad parody" of a "horrible movie" is an effective argument.
Might governments intervene with a seastead? Possibly. Is it a hell of a lot less likely than the US government intervening in New Hampshire? yup.
It is bad science fiction is what it is. The problem is logistical? That is just another way to say that it is going to be extremely expensive.
This is what the future of liberty looks like.
[youtube=425,350]tJmpuHQN1bY[/youtube]
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And you dont think the seasteading institute isnt getting plenty of funding? You dont think that they have researchers and engineers who can really produce something of value that would actually work? Why dont you check out the site and get involved in some of the forum discussions. Check out the blue prints and the logistics. See what they have planned. Or wait till next year when they have their first test case and see how it goes from there. I'd give it some time. I think they can do more then ur giving credit to it.
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Anyway, I think the trade-off is acceptable. Going down the checklist, there seems to be more green checkmarks in Zug's column. Not that I intend to go anywhere in the next several years. I'll probably end up in the Bahamas.
There are some basic things on my list that make a place totally unacceptable, and Switzerland fails.
All the women in Switzerland look EXACTLY like this!!! I say your list means nothing in the face of this.
(http://store.halloweentownstore.com/miva/graphics/00000001/CW121.jpg)
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Anyway, I think the trade-off is acceptable. Going down the checklist, there seems to be more green checkmarks in Zug's column. Not that I intend to go anywhere in the next several years. I'll probably end up in the Bahamas.
There are some basic things on my list that make a place totally unacceptable, and Switzerland fails.
All the women in Switzerland look EXACTLY like this!!! I say your list means nothing in the face of this.
(http://store.halloweentownstore.com/miva/graphics/00000001/CW121.jpg)
Why not just move to California with that attitude. I mean, they did write a song about it:
[youtube=425,350]N2CyQ7Eslg4[/youtube]
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Anyway, I think the trade-off is acceptable. Going down the checklist, there seems to be more green checkmarks in Zug's column. Not that I intend to go anywhere in the next several years. I'll probably end up in the Bahamas.
There are some basic things on my list that make a place totally unacceptable, and Switzerland fails.
All the women in Switzerland look EXACTLY like this!!! I say your list means nothing in the face of this.
(http://store.halloweentownstore.com/miva/graphics/00000001/CW121.jpg)
OK. I'm convinced.
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Anyway, I think the trade-off is acceptable. Going down the checklist, there seems to be more green checkmarks in Zug's column. Not that I intend to go anywhere in the next several years. I'll probably end up in the Bahamas.
There are some basic things on my list that make a place totally unacceptable, and Switzerland fails.
All the women in Switzerland look EXACTLY like this!!! I say your list means nothing in the face of this.
(http://store.halloweentownstore.com/miva/graphics/00000001/CW121.jpg)
Why not just move to California with that attitude. I mean, they did write a song about it:
[youtube=425,350]N2CyQ7Eslg4[/youtube]
I think when the Beach Boys wrote that song way back when, CA was a different place. I think that was before we got overrun by socialist assholes. But still, I think CA girls are still the hottest.
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lee roth ruined that song
only thing going for the video was hot chix
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Would be nice...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3345/3497468890_76fdfd4294_o.jpg)
swimming pool next to ocean...
It seems to me that it is a waste of space. Also the buildings need to be domed to avoid wave damage during the hurricanes it can't avoid.
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Would be nice...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3345/3497468890_76fdfd4294_o.jpg)
swimming pool next to ocean...
It seems to me that it is a waste of space. Also the buildings need to be domed to avoid wave damage during the hurricanes it can't avoid.
ahhh, maybe people don't want to dive 100 feet into the ocean....
mebbe some peeps don dig on salt water...
also, are those underground parking spaces?
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Funny, my wife and I live in Colorado and want to move to NH.
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Funny, my wife and I live in Colorado and want to move to NH.
My girlfriend thinks its too cold in NH, and its really tough to convince her to move there (she has arthritis and gets quite sore during bad weather). Colorado may be the middle ground, if activists are gathering there at all.
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Funny, my wife and I live in Colorado and want to move to NH.
My girlfriend thinks its too cold in NH, and its really tough to convince her to move there (she has arthritis and gets quite sore during bad weather). Colorado may be the middle ground, if activists are gathering there at all.
No. Actually, pro-freedom folks are leaving CO for WY and NH. I know of folks that have left CO for both states. Though, unless you are talking about southern CO, it's not much different than NH.
Good luck.
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I must have gotten CO mixed up with WY. I've been researching WY today and I joined the FSW boards and introduced myself.
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I must have gotten CO mixed up with WY. I've been researching WY today and I joined the FSW boards and introduced myself.
That's cool. There is one town that is usually a few degrees warmer than anywhere in NH in the winter. However, most of the population centers tend to colder than the population centers in NH. Luckily, WY is less humid so it's more of a dry heat. Unfortunately, WY tends to be a lot more windy, which adds extra chill. All in all, you may average what feels like a couple degrees warmer weather in WY. However, I doubt your wife will even notice that difference. But if you have a bunch of family in WY or something, it makes sense.
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Well, so far as the FSP is concerned, I'd choose NH as my first choice. However, my gal is not convinced, thus I must offer her more choices.
I'm young, so I cant see one place being my only place of residence forever yet, but at least a liberty activist gathering ground could be a home-base of sorts.