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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2009, 01:05:40 AM »

I'd rather move to Wyoming than NH.

Free State Wyoming ftw!

/twocents
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DontTreadOnMike

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2009, 01:54:52 AM »

Free state Zug is more like it. Zug Switzerland that is. I think the highest tax bracket has to pay 8% income taxes or something like that.
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Rebel

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2009, 02:04:40 AM »

Is there any way to put "I'm not in the mood for this Thread" on that sign?


I luv you right now.
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jeffersonish

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2009, 03:43:04 AM »

The way I see it, I don't expect people to adopt the liberty mindset, but I have this compulsive need to talk to everyone about it. Hopefully I can convince a few. I do what I can when I can. I haven't signed up for FSP because I don't know if I can make the move. I probably will at some point, but it might be 20 years. I have great hopes and tiny expectations. That way when I see Ron Paul get double digit votes in some primaries I get really happy. Granted Ron Paul is not a hardcore libertarian/voluntaryist (he only seems like it when compared to the rest of Congress) but ever since he ran, it seems there are a lot more people aware of the term libertarian and a lot of people deciding to call themselves libertarian. Hopefully a couple of them will eventually actually understand what the term means, and decide they still like it.

I only read the first few posts, so you can take this for what its worth.
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Lothar

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2009, 04:22:18 AM »

The organization "Free State Project" aside, the migration project to NH is the best idea out there that is feasible today.  I think that once people think it through to an end, they will see that, once they disregard arguments about goals, timelines, perceived progress/failures.  Perhaps I am not as creative as some of you, but I see the FSP, and the private space race as the only chance free people might have.  Obviously, the world is going to change, and maybe there will be a better option at some point in the future.  I think the political migration concept makes sense.  I personally agree with the FSP voters choice in selecting NH.  As it is today, and can be soon, it's unlike anything that's ever been tried before.

I know of three people who have moved to NH without announcement.  They pledged to move with the FSP, but after a while believed it would be beneficial to the effort, and preferable to them personally, to not be associated with the FSP, and any social groups that have formed around it so far.  I know two others that have not pledged, who plan on moving at some yet to be determined time, to partake in the efforts of the FSP, but without pledging.

A couple of points..
 1, The effort to start the project has begun, but if you understand the strategy the FSP was inspired by, you'd know that the project doesn't start until possibly 5 years after the 20,000th person pledges to move with everyone else.  Anything the current residents, or early movers, do before then is just icing, and hopefully lessons, for the pledgers to expand on.

 2, I don't care much for politics.  I hear many anarchists, or voluntaryists (or whatever they choose to be called), speak as though pursuing politics is a waste of time.  I would agree with this, outside of NH.  The idea behind the political migration is to change the rules that normally apply, and not be in the vast, easily ignored, minority.  Those who believe they know that politics is universally futile aren't taking into consideration that this is something new, and they really don't have anything to compare it to (if you disagree, make sure you include things like cell phones, and the internet, in your consideration.).  It may not be apparent today (nhliberty.org/), but again, the idea is that things can be different if 20,000 people of like mind move into a low population area....  Let it begin first before giving up on it.  At least let it begin before claiming it didn't work.

 3, FSP doesn't have sole dibs on NH.  If you think you have a better plan for a migration project aimed at liberty, please start it!  I for one, will support it.  If you do, please also target NH.  I consider the "First 1,000" a different migration project, and I think it would have helped keep confusion to a minimum if it were treated as such.  If you're a fellow anarchist, and can't stand having to explain things to the ridiculous minarchists all the time, please start a "Free Terra Project", and target NH.  I'll support the effort!  If you're a statist, and you want to shrink government to some level where it magically becomes legit somehow...  well, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, I  guess, as long as you're not the larger enemy... Start the Libertarian? State Project, and  I'd support it.
If tomorrow there was an announcement of some oddly familiar looking effort to move people who are looking for a region with the best potential for freedom, from say Siberia, and they voted that it will be the White Mountains, the better for all of us it would be.  It wouldn't weaken the FSP.  I would think it would only appear to validate the FSP's selection of NH, and probably credit FTL, NHLA, Ridley, OTN, etc..  Bring on the Free Keene/Grafton/Town/County/State Projects.


I wanted to mention that the reason I opened this thread is because I was curious to see if, like a couple people I know, this was someone who was no longer affiliated with the FSP, but still an activist (or, at least a "Small Government Pledge" type), and still moving to NH for liberty.  I'm not claiming that the missing 276 have all made this choice, but I do know three of them that have.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2009, 07:34:22 AM »

Free state Zug is more like it. Zug Switzerland that is. I think the highest tax bracket has to pay 8% income taxes or something like that.

Personal income tax is 7,800 swiss francs per 150,000 francs(thats just under 140,000 dollars), i.e 5 PERCENT INCOME TAX

Corporate income tax is 11,000 per 160,000 francs i.e 6.8%

Source

that was the 2008 rates.

Now theres still a sales tax and federal tax, but even with them it comes under 15,000 per 150,000, around 15% total tax burden, although its hard to work out the total burden if you aren't fluid in german because most of the tax literature tends to be in german.

If you're a high earner in America, you pay nearly the entire Swiss tax burden on federal income tax alone.

Also Capital tax is extremely low in switzerland, 0.002%! Source

Couple the financial freedom (low tax, no minimum wage), with all the personal freedoms, euthanasia, prostitution, drugs, I can't see how any serious libertarian could say "well that sounds good but I don't want to move to another country".
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 07:57:51 AM by fatcat »
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2009, 07:53:49 AM »

The organization "Free State Project" aside, the migration project to NH is the best idea out there that is feasible today.  I think that once people think it through to an end, they will see that, once they disregard arguments about goals, timelines, perceived progress/failures.

Yeah, why worry about something like progress or failure.

Care to back up what you say? Why the hell is "NH the best idea out there that is feasible today"?

I'm not shilling for people to move to Zug, personally I think mass migration would more likely build up resentment within the local populace, especially if it was done by the kind of self-righteous assholes in the NH FSP. Is NH good because its small so it will be easier for a small number of libertarians to make a difference?

Well Zug has a population of 100,000, less than 10% of the population of NH. That means 1,000 people in Zug is 1% of the population, but 1,000 in NH is barely 0.01%. Wouldn't this make Zug 10 times better population wise? especially considering Swiss Cantons have far more sovereignty than US states.

So what exactly is it about NH that makes it the best place for liberty? Besides that theres already a project running (which isn't a reason to continue with a worse choice), and you won't have to leave America to do it?

Especially considering the rampaging Federal government. The fed has shown no regard for State sovereignty anywhere it actually mattered. Look at cannabis distributory raids in California.

So if I don't want a project to get people to move to Switzerland? What has this got to do with anything?

Well the whole point is that FSP proponents tend to refuse to acknowledge facts as important. All the evidence points to Zug being freer than New Hampshire, yet most FSPers I've talked to happily say "well you should go for that but its not for me", but in the next breath they'll claim "FSP is the only hope for liberty in our lifetimes", and anyone who criticizes the FSP gets the tired old "WELL WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO THEN?!?! HUH!?!" response. Well I'm moving to a place where I can actually be more free than a bunch of cultists in NH, but no one wants to hear anyone pissing on their happy little club.

Cut the hero bullshit. You don't care about getting the most possible freedom. You care about getting the most possible freedom if it means staying in America. Either that or you think Zug actually isn't freer than NH, which I have seen no credible argument to support.

Alot of it comes from the ridiculous attitude that leads to a pyramid scheme of misleading. People move across the country, thats a big investment. If they accept the failings of the FSP, then its less likely for other people are less likely to join, which would make their sacrifice less likely to matter.

Also lots of people have built up FSP NH as the only hope for freedom, so its plain human condition that its too hard to accept any facts that dispute this.

I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 07:58:38 AM by fatcat »
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2009, 09:08:14 AM »

Well the pledge is somewhat of a joke now. 

Somewhat?

It's at least 38% a joke at this point. 20,000 people is not a lot to get to sign an online form in 8 years. If the counter is still around when it rolls to 10,000; I can't imagine the hoopla that will ensue over "reaching the halfway point"

Again, this isn't to say people aren't moving. They are. The freekeene forums has ballooned with new local activists and I was around when 8 people was a big Social Sunday, and nobody but Ian would do anything. Now we're at 35ish and have the Mike Barskey's taking the reigns with things like FreeKeene Fest and turning into far far more than it was before.
You know what else is a joke?

Thinking free staters can take over Keene.
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2009, 09:10:36 AM »

I'd rather move to Wyoming than NH.

Free State Wyoming ftw!

/twocents
I wouldn't. And I carry around a FSW silver coin.

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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2009, 09:43:28 AM »

I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.

Maybe, we will see.

I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).

If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.
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blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2009, 09:50:17 AM »

Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.
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FTL_Mark

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2009, 09:51:42 AM »

Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.

Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
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No one has conjectured that I could quite possibly be a Libertarian posing as an Anarchist trying to pretend to still be a Libertarian; or what I like to call an Anarcho-Hustler.

blackie

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2009, 09:56:50 AM »

Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least)
I hope you are not talking about Jason Sorens.

Jason Sorens isn't an expert?
Maybe he is on some things, but not at running an organization. Him being the chair of the FSP BOD has been a disaster.
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fatcat

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2009, 10:26:29 AM »

I can guarantee that New Hampshire will still be less free than Zug is right now in 10 years times. I'd also hazard a wager that NH will probably be less free than it is right now in 10 years time.

Maybe, we will see.

I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).

If Zug is the promised land, go there! I totally support that. One thing they don't have is a nationally syndicated radio show pushing people to move there. Maybe the FSP is a pipe dream (it is the pipe dream of an expert at least), but I couldn't just sit in Sarasota and do nothing but complain about the state of things.

Sure, I understand there are personal reasons. I'm not criticizing anyone who have good reasons not to move to a certain place.

Moving country is definitely a bigger step than moving state, and learning a new language is a big investment (though most swiss people speak english).

I hear good things about liberty in Costa Rica, but I'd probably never move there (unless there were absolutely no alternatives) because of the climate and the language barrier.

I've said many times that New Hampshire is probably one of the best places to be in America in terms of liberty, especially given the active liberty movement, but its certainly not the only opportunity, as many people here say, and in my opinion its not even the best opportunity, as many other people say.

Who I am criticizing is the hard-core FSP members who treat anyone who isn't in favor of the NH FSP as either being too lazy to do anything, or not caring about liberty enough, when there are plenty of good alternatives on the table.

All the grand standing and ego stroking is extremely off putting. If I saw more good things coming from the movement, and a more positive and realistic attitude to addressing problems, rather than delusion and derision, I'd be far more inclined to donate to the FSP, as I have done in the past.

But when people won't seriously address pretty much any problem with the FSP, and treat any criticism like some fucking battle, instead of a chance to work out whats best; donating money to the FSP just seems like a waste of money. I want the FSP to work, I want any liberty movement to work, but I don't want to pay money for a bunch of people to pat each other on the back and bury their heads in the sand.
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DontTreadOnMike

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Re: I'm not a porcupine anymore
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2009, 11:47:24 AM »



I can tell you why *I* won't move to Zug.
a) I don't speak German, not even a little. That is going to make the first 2 years pretty rough.
b) I have heard that the Swiss immigration criteria are even tougher than the USs.
c) I can only really do my job in the US. No one in the US will want to hear me doing a talk from another country (at least not for an extended time).

a. Everyone speaks English over there too. It wouldn't be too much of a problem

b. That's the one big drawback about Switzerland, they're pretty uptight about their borders and foreigners moving to their delicate slice of heaven.

c. I'm a freelance 3D artist and a blacksmith (in training) so I can work anywhere. My wife just needs a few big museums or colleges. She's an archeological anthropologist.


That said, I probably won't move to Zug either (even though I have family in Swizterland). If you're an American citizen working in another country, our great freedom-loving nation will still charge you income tax. The only way to avoid it is to renounce your citizenship. Considering I'm on the terrorist watch-list, if I renounce my citizenship, I don't think I'd ever see my family again. So until all of that changes, I'm stuck here...in the land of the free.
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