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Author Topic: How to respond to this  (Read 5455 times)

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Spud

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How to respond to this
« on: February 14, 2006, 10:08:05 PM »

Hello. I'm a new member and have been listening to the podcast for a long while. I'm having a "friendly" chat with this guy on another board and I don't know how to respond to the following. Can somebody help me out with my reply? The person I am chatting with is a true blue republican and we're debating about flat tax and how the government is needed for our "protection". I'm at a loss on how to reply to a person that thinks that the government and Bush can do no wrong.

Thanks!


Quote:


>On 2/11/2006 7:24:33 PM, Spud wrote:
>Now you have nuts that are pushing for a straight or flat tax as well. Think about it, a flat tax will do nothing but create a black market for each and >every product. Why would you go to the store to pay an inflated price when you could buy the same thing cheaper on the black market?.

A flat income tax will create a black market but the current income and sales taxes don't? Curious economic theory. How does it work?
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fourthgeek

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2006, 10:31:19 PM »

Thus we get rid of all three taxes.
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sfliberty

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2006, 11:54:20 PM »

Which three?  There are so many.   :(
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 12:48:27 PM by sfliberty »
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tehk

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2006, 12:03:12 AM »

Hello. I'm a new member and have been listening to the podcast for a long while. I'm having a "friendly" chat with this guy on another board and I don't know how to respond to the following. Can somebody help me out with my reply? The person I am chatting with is a true blue republican and we're debating about flat tax and how the government is needed for our "protection". I'm at a loss on how to reply to a person that thinks that the government and Bush can do no wrong.

Thanks!


Quote:


>On 2/11/2006 7:24:33 PM, Spud wrote:
>Now you have nuts that are pushing for a straight or flat tax as well. Think about it, a flat tax will do nothing but create a black market for each and >every product. Why would you go to the store to pay an inflated price when you could buy the same thing cheaper on the black market?.

A flat income tax will create a black market but the current income and sales taxes don't? Curious economic theory. How does it work?

...do you guys know what a flat tax is? Or do I...? Cause when I hear flat tax, I think an income tax with no brackets (or 2, with one group of lower income earners paying 0%). Like Estonia, which has an income tax of ~24% that everyone pays regardless of income.

Income taxes don't create black markets, sales tax does. The reason for this being, would you pay $1080 dollars for an uberwidget at the store (which charges sales tax) or $1020 from a black market, where sales tax doesn't matter?

EDIT- Also, debating with people who believe that Bush and/or the government can do no wrong sounds like a fruitless endeavor. I wouldn't waste your time. Who said that our job isn't to make individualists, but find them? I don't remember, but he's a smart guy.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 12:04:58 AM by tehk »
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Proletarian

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2006, 01:37:54 AM »

Well...taxes don't necessarily "create" black markets. And those markets wouldn't be black, anyways. Think about it. Black markets only come about when something is made illegal; demand for that product usually shoots through the roof, a market booms -- but it's not a protected free market, thus "black."

What products are being made illegal? What markets are losing their protected free market status?
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libertylover

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2006, 04:38:21 AM »

You still have moonshiners and hooch is legal.  They moonshine cause of the sin tax attached to the product.  I know of people that are manufacturing cigerettes in prep for the taxes.  Most just run cheap car loads of cigs from NC up to NY and cut out the tax.

I think the mix up is VAT (Value Added Tax) and sales tax incorporated into the purchase price  being confused with a flat tax on income.  When Forebs ran for president he was a proponet of the flat income tax at 3% with no deducation and a very simplified tax form.  The rich and the corporations killed the idea.  Most of them only currently pay 1% with all the special deductions they have created for themselves.
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tehk

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2006, 12:15:09 PM »

Well...taxes don't necessarily "create" black markets. And those markets wouldn't be black, anyways. Think about it. Black markets only come about when something is made illegal; demand for that product usually shoots through the roof, a market booms -- but it's not a protected free market, thus "black."

What products are being made illegal? What markets are losing their protected free market status?

Main Entry: black market
Function: noun
: illicit trade in goods or commodities in violation of official regulations; also : a place where such trade is carried on

Sometimes, you don't have to do anything illicit to get around this stuff. Just ask people who live in Vancouver, WA, the east border of Vermont, and countless other places I'm sure. When you want to buy a new TV, why not just hop the border to Portland or New Hampshire where there's no sales tax?

I guess my main point is that artificially raising the price of a good lowers demand for that good (at that price). A rational consumer will want to pay as little as he can, which translates to the black market in the presence of a sales tax. Or, in a more real life example, he'll just drive over the border to a state that doesn't have the sales tax.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2006, 10:04:27 PM »

Flat tax is just like sales tax, except on your income.  Everybody pays the same percentage, except like the other guy mentioned, the poor pay none. 

Normal blue collar types like it cuz the rich dont have all those loopholes to play with, and they pay just like everybody else.  You would still have all the other bullshit to deal with like property tax and school tax.  Flat is only supposed to eliminate ratcheting income tax.  Or so i hear. 
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bushwacker

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2006, 12:47:13 AM »

Yeah. It would be cool if it was implemented and set to the lowest bracket % (if you were going to have it at all of course), but more likely it would be set above-median.
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lapafrax

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2006, 05:34:09 PM »

Quote
A flat income tax will create a black market but the current income and sales taxes don't? Curious economic theory. How does it work?

A flat income tax would be a regressive tax, since everyone would pay the same rate irrespective of their income.

Of course no income tax should exist, period.    Government should be funded either by tariffs (as Harry Browne says), a small sales tax or voluntary user fees.
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MobileDigit

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2006, 05:50:09 PM »

A flat income tax would be a regressive tax, since everyone would pay the same rate irrespective of their income.
A flat income tax is a proportionate tax, not a regressive tax. A flat sales tax, would be regressive.

Government should be funded either by tariffs (as Harry Browne says), a small sales tax or voluntary user fees.

I find it amusing that statists try to make people believe government 'fees' are not taxes.
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Proletarian

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2006, 10:17:52 PM »

I find it amusing that statists try to make people believe government 'fees' are not taxes.

Taxes denote involuntary payment. You have no choice to pay a tax for a service you may or may not have chosen.
Fees denotes voluntary payment. You have a choice to purchase a service for a fee.
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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2006, 10:56:35 PM »

Fees denotes voluntary payment. You have a choice to purchase a service for a fee.

But in the case of government monopolies, which all minarchists support to some degree, there cannot be alternate services. In this case, the 'fee' is in fact a tax.
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I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

lapafrax

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2006, 04:38:56 PM »

Quote
In this case, the 'fee' is in fact a tax.

You wouldn't have to pay this fee.
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BenTucker

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Re: How to respond to this
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2006, 06:36:34 PM »

Quote
You have no choice to pay a tax for a service you may or may not have chosen

you mean kinda like paying economic rent for simply have a place to exist?
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