The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: AbsurdParadox on June 11, 2007, 09:05:19 PM
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You know, I spend a lot of time in libertarian/pro-free-market arguments in other forums online... usually refuting poor assumptions. My favorite one is where someone thinks libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies. How do you guys keep from just getting frustrated and completely giving up?
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libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies.
This IS true though...you haven't been to the secret meetings apparently. How do we do it? When it looks like all sane arguments won't work we just blow the person we're arguing with until they give in.
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libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies.
This IS true though...you haven't been to the secret meetings apparently. How do we do it? When it looks like all sane arguments won't work we just blow the person we're arguing with until they give in.
I disagree entirely with you. None of your arguments will work with me.
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libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies.
This IS true though...you haven't been to the secret meetings apparently. How do we do it? When it looks like all sane arguments won't work we just blow the person we're arguing with until they give in.
Its all suddenly so clear!
Seriously, lets start a libertarian cabal. I've always liked cloaks.
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You know, I spend a lot of time in libertarian/pro-free-market arguments in other forums online... usually refuting poor assumptions. My favorite one is where someone thinks libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies. How do you guys keep from just getting frustrated and completely giving up?
To answer your question seriously, I don't argue libertarianism with folk over message boards anymore. It's just pointless to me, because folk aren't interested in listening or understanding but fighting.
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Does that mean I'm not getting my blow job?
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Does that mean I'm not getting my blow job?
That rule only applies for non-libertarians Brock you should know that! Weren't you at the last Bohemian Grove meeting??
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A sense of humor helps. It must be hell for a True Believer who can't laugh at oneself from time to time.
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Does that mean I'm not getting my blow job?
That rule only applies for non-libertarians Brock you should know that! Weren't you at the last Bohemian Grove meeting??
Just another reason why no sane person would be libertarian. All the perks go away.
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You know, I spend a lot of time in libertarian/pro-free-market arguments in other forums online... usually refuting poor assumptions. My favorite one is where someone thinks libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies. How do you guys keep from just getting frustrated and completely giving up?
First, come to grips with the hardest part of Libertarianism. You don't exist to convince others, satisfy their needs, or save the world.
Second, don't go to some non-political forum with the agenda of convincing people. You just be competing for air on an already poor signal to noise ratio soapbox.
Third, the core of what we are, really, is people who want to be left alone. Fire in the belly is fine and good, when you believe in a cause passionately, but when you give up what freedom you have to tilting at windmills/pissing into the wind, it only wastes your life.
Four, live a life of freedom. Do as you see fit. Live by the NAP. Don't lie, cheat or steal from people. And when put to the test, take the moral high ground. Say so when asked about it. People will start to respect you and your opinions. Then when they ask you what you believe in, (When you know them well enough.) then tell them, in light, non lecturing words, without the suggestion of condemnation of people you disagree with. You can convert people to Libertarianism, but only one person at a time. It's an individualist view that requires individualist methods. I have been a Libertarian since I was eighteen, and in that time, I have introduced four people successfully to freedom. My wife, (At the age of 38, Former Republican) My Father, (Aged 59, he's just read Atlas Shrugged, and is getting into The Fountainhead.) My Father in law, (May he have peace. He voted non-republican for the first time in his life, for Michael Badnarick, at the age of sixty-three.) and my best friend since the age of twelve. (Aged 32, was a violent nihilist type anarchist, turned capitalist hero.) That's it for all that time.
Just remember, being free also means not enslaving yourself to others.
I fought and fought for fucking years, to get people to listen. You can't get people to listen by fighting them. Reach for the ideal in yourself, and people will see that natural charisma that comes from true self esteem, and be attracted to it.
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First, come to grips with the hardest part of Libertarianism. You don't exist to convince others, satisfy their needs, or save the world.
+1
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We do it from behind of course.
Seriously though, the way I do it on the literature forums I go to is usually I just post some stuff in my signature or something, and hope they ask me about it. It's hard to convince people who don't already have an open mind for it to all the sudden up into libertarianism. It's a tough road to hoe, so to speak.
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You know, I spend a lot of time in libertarian/pro-free-market arguments in other forums online... usually refuting poor assumptions. My favorite one is where someone thinks libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies. How do you guys keep from just getting frustrated and completely giving up?
I only talk to like minded people now, keeps me from going nuts. I only talk to "non-liberty" minded people when they have a question and I will help educate them until they start arguing, then I just walk away after saying "you will figure it out"
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Governments murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide) people.
Your government murders (http://krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html) people.
Individuals (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Tianasquare.jpg) can not control their government.
You (http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-05/29524816.jpg) can not control your government (http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm). (NSFW - You prob don't want to see)
Advocating government means advocating mass murder. Period.
Government is a system that is based in violence and commits violence on a grand scale. Violence is not civil. Civilized people do not form governments, savages do.
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If you believe in government I consider you a savage.
If after presented with the facts you continue to believe in government you remain a savage and I have no more use for you than I have for a pet or work animal.
The savages currently out number the civilized by degrees. It is not good to piss off a pack of animals whether they be bulls or savage men. It is best to find other civilized people and give the savages a few more generations to evolve. Believing you can convince most savages to be civilized is naive. Most savages are domesticated enough not to be individually violent under most circumstances. They are clever and evolved enough to mostly commit violence only when it is approved of by the rest of the pack, else they may be on the other end of the violence. So when around savages it is best not to do things the pack disagrees with.
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You guys are totally right about forums. I'm not to worried abuot convincing people... just correcting people who like to spout bad information, but I think I'm giving up on that as well... it seems to always become the non-libertarians calling the libertarians crazy, the libertarians having a nice circle jerk, and then MAYBE one person who really is interested in it or hasn't heard of it, haha.
Thanks for the advice guys.
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My favorite one is where someone thinks libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies.
They are only half right :lol:
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you get angry cause you lack discipline daniel-san
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A sense of humor helps. It must be hell for a True Believer who can't laugh at oneself from time to time.
Kinda like the truthers? Well, except Brokor.
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Arguing and refuting rarely convince anyone to change sides. I've learned to make suggestions or mention pro-freedom ideas if the chances arise without saying "libertarian.". A little here and a little there. I mentioned Ron Paul in a letter to the editor recently. Last week my neighbor that I rarely talk to asked "so who's Ron Paul?" This turned into a lengthy discussion with him asking the questions.
If you attack someone else's core of beliefs they will tune you out immediately. If you are in a debate, I've actually found that "The Gun in the Room"-style argument can be quite effective. The Gun in the Room is an article written by Stefan Molyneux (at lewrockwell.com) and was discussed on FTL recently .
Don't give up. Stay away from non-productive forums. Mostly live by example as John Shaw stated earlier in this thread.
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You know, I spend a lot of time in libertarian/pro-free-market arguments in other forums online... usually refuting poor assumptions. My favorite one is where someone thinks libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies. How do you guys keep from just getting frustrated and completely giving up?
Every person like this is an oppportunity to refine the phrasing of the arguement, an opportunity to learn how to convince people, and how not to do it if you screw up. Even when you lose, you win.
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Arguing and refuting rarely convince anyone to change sides. I've learned to make suggestions or mention pro-freedom ideas if the chances arise without saying "libertarian."
Winner. I just make libertarian-leaning comments on things that are right in front of us and relevant. For example, my boss is a pretty damn hard-line conservative, listens to Rush, etc. We were in Louisiana on Monday visiting a few fields (of the oil variety) and at one point we were crossing a very long bridge over miles of swamp with .1 mile markers. I made the comment "I wonder who got the contract to put in those tenth mile markers". I didn't mention it again, but he mentioned it to five other people that afternoon.
EDIT: Oh, and welcome to the FTLBBS.
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You know, I spend a lot of time in libertarian/pro-free-market arguments in other forums online... usually refuting poor assumptions. My favorite one is where someone thinks libertarians are all assholes who are trying to create slave-labor monopolies. How do you guys keep from just getting frustrated and completely giving up?
Empathy is the key.
Remember that the average Joe is not educated in liberty. They cannot help but feel aghast. Bring shit down to their level, and then you can spread liberty!