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Author Topic: Holocaust Denial  (Read 38212 times)

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blackie

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Holocaust Denial
« on: February 15, 2009, 04:42:14 PM »

I stole this post from Alex Libman, cus I am lazy.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=119964
Quote
Please avoid framing the question as whether "the Holocaust happened" or not. No noteworthy historical revisionist I've ever heard of is denying that Jews were put in concentration camps - like the Japanese were in America, a major difference being that America wasn't being invaded from both sides and suffering from massive food & fuel shortages and disease epidemics.

The questions that are up for debate are:

(1) Should this debate even be allowed in the first place, or should people questioning or even probing deeper into the history of the Holocaust be jailed as Holocaust Deniers, as they are in some European countries?

(2) What were the intentions of the German government in putting the Jews (and other groups) in concentration camps? Was it their original intention to kill them all? Did they offer them as bargaining chips in negotiations with the Allies?

(3) How many Jews died and of what cause - how many were gassed alive in the camps, and how many died of disease, hunger, Allied bombing, were killed outside the camps, etc. Will the "Hitler killed 6 million Jews" claim stand an unbiased historical analysis?

(4) Did the victorious Allies, especially the Soviet Union, take any liberties with truth in propagandizing the Holocaust to the world? It is known that some initial claims (an eight-digit figure of dead Jews, human soap and leather, etc) had to be withdrawn in light of new evidence, and it was revealed that at least some Soviet and independent Polish massacres were blamed on the Germans. Given the history of "antisemitism" in Russia / Ukraine / Belarus / Poland (ex the Kielce pogrom in 1946), could those revelations be a tip of a much bigger iceberg?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
Quote
Holocaust denial is the claim that the genocide of Jews during World War II—usually referred to as the Holocaust[1]—did not occur in the manner or to the extent described by current scholarship.

Key elements of this claim are the rejection of any of the following: that the Nazi government had a policy of deliberately targeting Jews and people of Jewish ancestry for extermination as a people; that between five and seven million Jews[1] were systematically killed by the Nazis and their allies; and that genocide was carried out at extermination camps using tools of mass murder, such as gas chambers.[2][3]

Holocaust deniers do not accept the term "denial" as an appropriate description of their point of view, and use the term Holocaust revisionism instead.[4] Scholars, however, prefer the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from historical revisionists, who use established historical methodologies.[5]

Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples.[6] For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic[7] conspiracy theory.[8] The methodologies of Holocaust deniers are criticized as based on a predetermined conclusion that ignores extensive historical evidence to the contrary.[9]

However, it must be noted that some people have been improperly labeled "Holocaust deniers" because they reject the religious connotation associated with the term Holocaust. Some people may be improperly labeled "Holocaust deniers" when in fact they do not deny the murder of innocent people, but instead reject the name given to the act. The term holocaust originally derived from the Greek word holókauston, meaning a "completely (holos) burnt (kaustos)" sacrificial offering to a god. The majority of scholars define the Holocaust as a genocide of European Jewry alone and do not include the mass murders of other groups as part of the "holocaust".
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 04:55:30 PM by blackie »
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wile-e-coyote

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 07:14:18 PM »

I think any time you have that many countries vying for reasons to demand war reparations, you're going to have some exaggerations. But i don’t see that disproving a few exaggerations is going to disprove the whole holocaust.

I don’t think anyone should be labeled anything, without their specific consent, for their beliefs. Whether they are erroneous or otherwise.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 09:00:26 PM »

Upon a closer historical investigation, I have personally witnessed evidence of at least 6,000,000 people being deliberately exterminated by the Nazis.  I also saw video of Hitler saying: "Don't let a single Jew leave, no matter how much they pay us."  I now consider this matter closed.
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blackie

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 09:37:57 PM »

Upon a closer historical investigation, I have personally witnessed evidence of at least 6,000,000 people being deliberately exterminated by the Nazis.  I also saw video of Hitler saying: "Don't let a single Jew leave, no matter how much they pay us."  I now consider this matter closed.
Did you just pull a David Cole?

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Alex Libman

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 09:54:12 PM »

No, I just don't want to waste any more time on this dirty, dirty issue.
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wile-e-coyote

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 09:56:36 PM »

so stfu  :D  and stop wasting time on it.

ez
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blackie

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 10:16:48 PM »

I've never spent much time on it, but it's always a fun topic.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 02:17:57 AM »

This thread reeks of the same scent that eminates from every 9/11 conspiracy thread.  No surprise who its coming from though.
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Caveman

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 04:03:45 AM »

(1) Should this debate even be allowed in the first place, or should people questioning or even probing deeper into the history of the Holocaust be jailed as Holocaust Deniers, as they are in some European countries?

No one should be put in jail for doing something that causes no harm to anyone else. Period.

This "debate" however, is not one, the Holocaust is one of the most researched events in human history and no reasonable person can even claim to have evidence refuting it because there is none. And when people ignore you, or call you crazy because you want to discuss this with them its because you have not gone through the effort of checking on the evidence yourself . The rest of us are not here to bring you out of your willful ignorance. We ignore you in the same way people ignore the homeless. One, because we know we can't do anything to really help you, and Two, because you should be helping yourself.

(2) What were the intentions of the German government in putting the Jews (and other groups) in concentration camps? Was it their original intention to kill them all? Did they offer them as bargaining chips in negotiations with the Allies?

The german government and the german people were generally not aware of the lengths the nazi leadership would go to at first. However as the system progressed almost every arm of the state and even regular societal institutions such as churches became complicit. As for direct planning yes, there are numerous sources quoting hitler as talking about it specifically and the upper leadership deliberately putting the death state together. Ovens don't pop up out of nowhere.

(3) How many Jews died and of what cause - how many were gassed alive in the camps, and how many died of disease, hunger, Allied bombing, were killed outside the camps, etc. Will the "Hitler killed 6 million Jews" claim stand an unbiased historical analysis?

It is hard to estimate how many people were killed because of the chaos of the war, the intentional coverup, and other factors. The 6 million number is a good guess that will unfortunately never be able to be completely verified. The death camps were used to kill around 3 million people, mobile death squads known as Einsatzgruppen roamed the eastern territories and killed hundreds of thousands. Victims were forced into ghettos where they died from disease and malnutrition. Medical experiments were performed on various groups. Many victims worked themselves to death in labor camps as well. These events are irrefutable.

(4) Did the victorious Allies, especially the Soviet Union, take any liberties with truth in propagandizing the Holocaust to the world? It is known that some initial claims (an eight-digit figure of dead Jews, human soap and leather, etc) had to be withdrawn in light of new evidence, and it was revealed that at least some Soviet and independent Polish massacres were blamed on the Germans. Given the history of "antisemitism" in Russia / Ukraine / Belarus / Poland (ex the Kielce pogrom in 1946), could those revelations be a tip of a much bigger iceberg?

Not really. What new evidence are you talking about? There has been a huge influx of new documents to study since the fall of the Soviet Union but the fundamentals of the holocaust have not changed because it happened as the historical record shows. Just because one massacre was committed by the Soviets instead of the Germans does not mean the Holocaust never happened.
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fatcat

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 08:16:41 AM »

Whats a jew?
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NHArticleTen

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 08:25:52 AM »

Whats a jew?

don't they worship Allah or some such guy in the sky?

and don't you get doused with gasoline and set on fire if you don't behave?

meh

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Alex Libman

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2009, 08:43:23 AM »

This thread reeks of the same scent that eminates from every 9/11 conspiracy thread.  [...]

Yeah, you'd have the nose to smell that emanating scent very well, now wouldn't you?   :lol:

Seriously, you have to look at the context of what I wrote on JREF.  I didn't start that first thread, I merely came across an "anyone who questions Father FDR and Uncle Stalin one bit must think Six Million™ Jews are living on Jupiter" threat and tried to make it less black'n'white.


... a jew ...

Gesundheit.   :lol:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 08:52:04 AM by Alex Libman »
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wile-e-coyote

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 12:27:04 PM »

I don't think anything is irrefutable. Saying anything contrary is a pretty dogmatic thing to say.0

Someone used the analogy that it's tyranny to be disallowed to say 2+2=4

I submit to you that it's tyranny to disallow someone to say 2+2=22

Sometimes things really are just coincidences. Hitler said blah blah blah etc. besides the fact that that's all circumstantial hear-say :) there are dozens of explanations for everything you submitted as “irrefutable evidence.”

You got the black plague rolling around and all your penicillin distilleries keep getting bombed.... what else can you do?

I don't think anyone is saying anyone is innocent here, but the motivations that’d be at work to vie for reparations would surly have twisted a few facts.

To say that no one has the right to reinvestigate or they would be a person of one of your favorite negatively charged intensives, is utter ludicrous.

"let his name be erased from history", there's clearly something wrong here.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 12:43:44 PM by wile-e-coyote »
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Alex Libman

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2009, 07:17:32 PM »

I submit to you that it's tyranny to disallow someone to say 2+2=22

What are you a JavaScript programmer:lol:
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wile-e-coyote

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Re: Holocaust Denial
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2009, 08:00:56 PM »

Oh yes, it is your cruelty that will change my mind..... :roll:
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