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Author Topic: HD Bailout  (Read 10092 times)

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Ecolitan

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HD Bailout
« on: December 07, 2010, 08:23:30 PM »

http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2010/12/05/federal-reserve-reveals-that-2-3-billion-was-secretly-loaned-to-harley-davidson.htm

Quote
Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Demographics
The average U.S. retail purchaser of a new Harley-Davidson motorcycle is a married
male in his mid to late forties (nearly two-thirds of U.S. retail purchasers of new
Harley-Davidson motorcycles are between the ages of 35 and 54) with a median
household income of approximately $84,300. Nearly three-quarters of the U.S. retail
sales of new Harley-Davidson motorcycles are to buyers with at least one year of
education beyond high school and 30% of the buyers have college degrees.
Approximately 12% of U.S. retail motorcycle sales of new Harley-Davidson
motorcycles are to female buyers. [4]

too important to fail?
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Bill Brasky

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 10:51:02 PM »

Two-point-three billion is chickenshit.

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Ecolitan

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 11:08:36 PM »

It's greater than their average annual sales.  3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:14:23 PM by Ecolitan »
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Andy

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 01:24:05 AM »

Quote
The average U.S. retail purchaser of a new Harley-Davidson motorcycle is a married
male in his mid to late forties (nearly two-thirds of U.S. retail purchasers of new
Harley-Davidson motorcycles are between the ages of 35 and 54

Well wadda ya know. Stereotypes do have something to them.

alaric89

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 08:24:41 AM »

For anybody interested in history check out this fun connection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Evinrude
There was a time when a garage machinist could do great things, pretty much on his own. The people who started these businesses had pretty much nothing to start with.
$2,300,000,000 holy shit.

Bill Brasky

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 12:54:56 AM »

It's greater than their average annual sales.  3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.

Irrelevant, and irrelevant. 

It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government.  The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt.  In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit.  So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions. 

I understand where you're coming from, and all.  Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it.  Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion.  2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right. 

Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy.  If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally.  Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION.  They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship. 

The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan.  You can read about it below, if interested. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29
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Branlin

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2010, 11:28:30 AM »

It's greater than their average annual sales.  3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.

Irrelevant, and irrelevant. 

It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government.  The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt.  In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit.  So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions. 

I understand where you're coming from, and all.  Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it.  Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion.  2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right. 

Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy.  If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally.  Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION.  They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship. 

The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan.  You can read about it below, if interested. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29

If a bank thought Harley (and I've ridden them for years) was a bad risk, they should go bankrupt. The taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize them, if only temporarily, by a loan. A bad risk is a bad risk.

Any large business, over time, becomes more inefficient, wasteful, unable to respond to the market, and tends to live off their fat. You have to suck it up or get out of the way for younger, more dynamic, hungry businesses.

A government $14 trillion in debt should have nothing to do with bailing out any company. Even if the government had a surplus they STILL shouldn't have anything to do with it. The surplus should be given back to the people from whom it was confiscated.

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Peppermint Pig

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2010, 12:23:28 PM »

Government is more than useless, it is driving the destruction of economic productivity. Where does the government draw the line with the size of the loans, or how does it justify the selective favortism of aiding one entity to the detriment of the others? The only way you could rationalize this is by assuming a debt based society is the norm and that it's therefore rational to put the biggest debtor in charge of handing out loans. The economic collapse, forestalled by stealing what little value people do possess in the form of FRN, is not worth the speciously argued benefit.
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Branlin

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 01:06:54 PM »

Government is more than useless, it is driving the destruction of economic productivity. Where does the government draw the line with the size of the loans, or how does it justify the selective favortism of aiding one entity to the detriment of the others? The only way you could rationalize this is by assuming a debt based society is the norm and that it's therefore rational to put the biggest debtor in charge of handing out loans. The economic collapse, forestalled by stealing what little value people do possess in the form of FRN, is not worth the speciously argued benefit.

Agreed.

Everything the government does is political, which should be self-evident. Handing out (other people's) money always has political strings attached.

In their true form, banks exist to profit by loaning money. They assess the risk of any loan, and if they miss their mark they stand to lose a lot of money.

The government never "loses" because it isn't their money, so they have no ability -- or interest -- in assessing financial risks.

And then you get to the immorality of taking someone's money from them by force, and giving it to someone else.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 11:46:49 PM »

It's greater than their average annual sales.  3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.

Irrelevant, and irrelevant. 

It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government.  The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt.  In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit.  So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions. 

I understand where you're coming from, and all.  Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it.  Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion.  2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right. 

Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy.  If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally.  Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION.  They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship. 

The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan.  You can read about it below, if interested. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29

If a bank thought Harley (and I've ridden them for years) was a bad risk, they should go bankrupt. The taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize them, if only temporarily, by a loan. A bad risk is a bad risk.

Any large business, over time, becomes more inefficient, wasteful, unable to respond to the market, and tends to live off their fat. You have to suck it up or get out of the way for younger, more dynamic, hungry businesses.

A government $14 trillion in debt should have nothing to do with bailing out any company. Even if the government had a surplus they STILL shouldn't have anything to do with it. The surplus should be given back to the people from whom it was confiscated.




Answer this - in a hundred years, do you think Harley paid more than 2.5 billion in taxes?
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Brooklyn Red Leg

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 01:10:15 AM »

Answer this - in a hundred years, do you think Harley paid more than 2.5 billion in taxes?

No. Their customers did. Harley-Davidson didn't pay fuck all in taxes.
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Branlin

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 08:28:04 AM »

It's greater than their average annual sales.  3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.

Irrelevant, and irrelevant. 

It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government.  The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt.  In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit.  So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions. 

I understand where you're coming from, and all.  Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it.  Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion.  2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right. 

Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy.  If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally.  Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION.  They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship. 

The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan.  You can read about it below, if interested. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29

If a bank thought Harley (and I've ridden them for years) was a bad risk, they should go bankrupt. The taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize them, if only temporarily, by a loan. A bad risk is a bad risk.

Any large business, over time, becomes more inefficient, wasteful, unable to respond to the market, and tends to live off their fat. You have to suck it up or get out of the way for younger, more dynamic, hungry businesses.

A government $14 trillion in debt should have nothing to do with bailing out any company. Even if the government had a surplus they STILL shouldn't have anything to do with it. The surplus should be given back to the people from whom it was confiscated.




Answer this - in a hundred years, do you think Harley paid more than 2.5 billion in taxes?

What does that have to do with anything?
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alaric89

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2010, 08:47:37 AM »

Aren't they just getting some of their money back?

Branlin

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2010, 09:20:00 AM »

Aren't they just getting some of their money back?

If I declared personal bankruptcy, do you think Washington would return my back taxes? If HD has a "right" to their previously paid taxes, shouldn't I also? And you?

To me, here is the relevant point:

Taxes are theft, period. Theft is immoral.

Whenever government bails someone out, there are always political strings attached, OR, they are bailing out their friends. Either of those actions, IMO, is immoral because they are using stolen money.
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alaric89

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Re: HD Bailout
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2010, 09:36:57 AM »

Yeah, I know. Just throwing out the dumb assed argument. Us liberty people need to be more consistant on this one, it looks bad when we use that argument as a excuse to take the government money.
I am against any bailout anytime. I was trolling. (sssshhhhh, don't tell anyone!)
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