The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: Ecolitan on December 07, 2010, 08:23:30 PM
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http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2010/12/05/federal-reserve-reveals-that-2-3-billion-was-secretly-loaned-to-harley-davidson.htm
Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Demographics
The average U.S. retail purchaser of a new Harley-Davidson motorcycle is a married
male in his mid to late forties (nearly two-thirds of U.S. retail purchasers of new
Harley-Davidson motorcycles are between the ages of 35 and 54) with a median
household income of approximately $84,300. Nearly three-quarters of the U.S. retail
sales of new Harley-Davidson motorcycles are to buyers with at least one year of
education beyond high school and 30% of the buyers have college degrees.
Approximately 12% of U.S. retail motorcycle sales of new Harley-Davidson
motorcycles are to female buyers. [4]
too important to fail?
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Two-point-three billion is chickenshit.
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It's greater than their average annual sales. 3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.
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The average U.S. retail purchaser of a new Harley-Davidson motorcycle is a married
male in his mid to late forties (nearly two-thirds of U.S. retail purchasers of new
Harley-Davidson motorcycles are between the ages of 35 and 54
Well wadda ya know. Stereotypes do have something to them.
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For anybody interested in history check out this fun connection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Evinrude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Evinrude)
There was a time when a garage machinist could do great things, pretty much on his own. The people who started these businesses had pretty much nothing to start with.
$2,300,000,000 holy shit.
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It's greater than their average annual sales. 3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.
Irrelevant, and irrelevant.
It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government. The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt. In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit. So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions.
I understand where you're coming from, and all. Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it. Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion. 2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right.
Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy. If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally. Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION. They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship.
The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan. You can read about it below, if interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29
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It's greater than their average annual sales. 3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.
Irrelevant, and irrelevant.
It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government. The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt. In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit. So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions.
I understand where you're coming from, and all. Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it. Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion. 2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right.
Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy. If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally. Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION. They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship.
The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan. You can read about it below, if interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29
If a bank thought Harley (and I've ridden them for years) was a bad risk, they should go bankrupt. The taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize them, if only temporarily, by a loan. A bad risk is a bad risk.
Any large business, over time, becomes more inefficient, wasteful, unable to respond to the market, and tends to live off their fat. You have to suck it up or get out of the way for younger, more dynamic, hungry businesses.
A government $14 trillion in debt should have nothing to do with bailing out any company. Even if the government had a surplus they STILL shouldn't have anything to do with it. The surplus should be given back to the people from whom it was confiscated.
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Government is more than useless, it is driving the destruction of economic productivity. Where does the government draw the line with the size of the loans, or how does it justify the selective favortism of aiding one entity to the detriment of the others? The only way you could rationalize this is by assuming a debt based society is the norm and that it's therefore rational to put the biggest debtor in charge of handing out loans. The economic collapse, forestalled by stealing what little value people do possess in the form of FRN, is not worth the speciously argued benefit.
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Government is more than useless, it is driving the destruction of economic productivity. Where does the government draw the line with the size of the loans, or how does it justify the selective favortism of aiding one entity to the detriment of the others? The only way you could rationalize this is by assuming a debt based society is the norm and that it's therefore rational to put the biggest debtor in charge of handing out loans. The economic collapse, forestalled by stealing what little value people do possess in the form of FRN, is not worth the speciously argued benefit.
Agreed.
Everything the government does is political, which should be self-evident. Handing out (other people's) money always has political strings attached.
In their true form, banks exist to profit by loaning money. They assess the risk of any loan, and if they miss their mark they stand to lose a lot of money.
The government never "loses" because it isn't their money, so they have no ability -- or interest -- in assessing financial risks.
And then you get to the immorality of taking someone's money from them by force, and giving it to someone else.
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It's greater than their average annual sales. 3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.
Irrelevant, and irrelevant.
It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government. The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt. In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit. So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions.
I understand where you're coming from, and all. Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it. Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion. 2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right.
Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy. If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally. Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION. They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship.
The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan. You can read about it below, if interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29
If a bank thought Harley (and I've ridden them for years) was a bad risk, they should go bankrupt. The taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize them, if only temporarily, by a loan. A bad risk is a bad risk.
Any large business, over time, becomes more inefficient, wasteful, unable to respond to the market, and tends to live off their fat. You have to suck it up or get out of the way for younger, more dynamic, hungry businesses.
A government $14 trillion in debt should have nothing to do with bailing out any company. Even if the government had a surplus they STILL shouldn't have anything to do with it. The surplus should be given back to the people from whom it was confiscated.
Answer this - in a hundred years, do you think Harley paid more than 2.5 billion in taxes?
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Answer this - in a hundred years, do you think Harley paid more than 2.5 billion in taxes?
No. Their customers did. Harley-Davidson didn't pay fuck all in taxes.
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It's greater than their average annual sales. 3 dollars from every man woman and child w/ in the US borders.
Irrelevant, and irrelevant.
It was a loan, and the only reason you have anything to say about it at all is because the loan source was the government. The fact is, companies take loans all the time to restructure their debt. In better times, they'll do secondary offers of new shares, but obviously at the time the market was taking a shit. So if by happenstance the gov was offering zero-interest or low interest loans, and they didn't avail themselves of the opportunity, that would be another example of a series of bad business decisions.
I understand where you're coming from, and all. Since I read and watch this shit pretty much 24/7, maybe I'm a little desensitized to it. Bill Gates is worth a hundred billion, Bernie Madoff stole like 30 billion. 2.5 for Harley doesn't shake me up all that much, when at the time shit was collapsing left and right.
Harley is an American icon, and so is Chevy. If shit like that goes down, we lose big face, globally. Its the core of a country that's calculated total worth is fifty-something TRILLION. They're not gonna let that happen for the price of a battleship.
The threat they face by doing all this stimulus is basically a replication of the lost decade(s) in Japan. You can read about it below, if interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29
If a bank thought Harley (and I've ridden them for years) was a bad risk, they should go bankrupt. The taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize them, if only temporarily, by a loan. A bad risk is a bad risk.
Any large business, over time, becomes more inefficient, wasteful, unable to respond to the market, and tends to live off their fat. You have to suck it up or get out of the way for younger, more dynamic, hungry businesses.
A government $14 trillion in debt should have nothing to do with bailing out any company. Even if the government had a surplus they STILL shouldn't have anything to do with it. The surplus should be given back to the people from whom it was confiscated.
Answer this - in a hundred years, do you think Harley paid more than 2.5 billion in taxes?
What does that have to do with anything?
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Aren't they just getting some of their money back?
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Aren't they just getting some of their money back?
If I declared personal bankruptcy, do you think Washington would return my back taxes? If HD has a "right" to their previously paid taxes, shouldn't I also? And you?
To me, here is the relevant point:
Taxes are theft, period. Theft is immoral.
Whenever government bails someone out, there are always political strings attached, OR, they are bailing out their friends. Either of those actions, IMO, is immoral because they are using stolen money.
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Yeah, I know. Just throwing out the dumb assed argument. Us liberty people need to be more consistant on this one, it looks bad when we use that argument as a excuse to take the government money.
I am against any bailout anytime. I was trolling. (sssshhhhh, don't tell anyone!)
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Heres the way I see it.
At this point in the game, do you guys want to see the government TRY and get its spending under control and try paying down a reported 13 Trillion debt (probably 60 trillion in reality, knowing those fucks and their creative accounting methods) and putting all taxpayers on the hook for the principal and interest? I sure dont. It would take a gazillion years and they would STILL come back a gazillion years later saying "well guys, we tried, but thanks for paying all those interest payments on the 100 trillion we now owe due to the fact that its literally impossible to have a federal government that can be responsible for its actions, but thanks for trying anyway". I sure dont
Thats why I rarely complain about government spending and who gets what for what reason. Its all pointless. They will go bankrupt, no doubt about it. Math doesn't lie.
Lets just spend spend spend like theres no tomorrow and hope there really is no tomorrow for this bloated pig of a govt because of it.
If this view seems inconsistent to any of you guys on a liberty level, well, like George Carlin once said, "well, youre just gonna have to figure that shit out on your own" because I see no other way out from under their thumb besides them going belly up and just disappearing. If you wanna see the fed get their spending under control so they can stay in power longer, have at it.
I say let the bailouts continue, grab what you can from them while you can. If you can get food stamps or free housing, or whatever bullshit they dole out people, do it and dont feel bad about it because if we want the free market world where shit like this cant happen, their system of handouts has to go belly up first/ Lets not prolong the inevitable. Lets "GIT R' DONE"
PS - Right now, im in the process of filling out paperwork where the federal government pays me 50k to maintain a christmas tree farm under the Federal Forestry Act. They pay me to maintain the trees, then when they mature, I sell them at a profit and never have to pay back the 50k :lol:
Im doing my tiny little part to bankrupt them. i suggest you do the same.
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Yeah, I know. Just throwing out the dumb assed argument. Us liberty people need to be more consistant on this one, it looks bad when we use that argument as a excuse to take the government money.
I am against any bailout anytime. I was trolling. (sssshhhhh, don't tell anyone!)
Ok, np, I'm still trying to figure this place out. :(
Sometimes I feel like I'm posting at www.we-love-government.com (http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3816/hahahahap.gif)
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Heres the way I see it.
At this point in the game, do you guys want to see the government TRY and get its spending under control and try paying down a reported 13 Trillion debt (probably 60 trillion in reality, knowing those fucks and their creative accounting methods) and putting all taxpayers on the hook for the principal and interest? I sure dont. It would take a gazillion years and they would STILL come back a gazillion years later saying "well guys, we tried, but thanks for paying all those interest payments on the 100 trillion we now owe due to the fact that its literally impossible to have a federal government that can be responsible for its actions, but thanks for trying anyway". I sure dont
Thats why I rarely complain about government spending and who gets what for what reason. Its all pointless. They will go bankrupt, no doubt about it. Math doesn't lie.
Lets just spend spend spend like theres no tomorrow and hope there really is no tomorrow for this bloated pig of a govt because of it.
If this view seems inconsistent to any of you guys on a liberty level, well, like George Carlin once said, "well, youre just gonna have to figure that shit out on your own" because I see no other way out from under their thumb besides them going belly up and just disappearing. If you wanna see the fed get their spending under control so they can stay in power longer, have at it.
I say let the bailouts continue, grab what you can from them while you can. If you can get food stamps or free housing, or whatever bullshit they dole out people, do it and dont feel bad about it because if we want the free market world where shit like this cant happen, their system of handouts has to go belly up first/ Lets not prolong the inevitable. Lets "GIT R' DONE"
PS - Right now, im in the process of filling out paperwork where the federal government pays me 50k to maintain a christmas tree farm under the Federal Forestry Act. :lol:
Im doing my tiny little part to bankrupt them. i suggest you do the same.
LOL, this is how my best buddy sees it, and I understand the thinking. He brought it up when the "Cash for Clunkers" program was out there, and I was bitching about it because my (extremely liberal) niece took advantage of it.
But I can't participate for the same reason I never have, and never would, work for any level of government.
But I agree with the sentiment of bringing it down.
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They pay me to maintain the trees, then when they mature, I sell them at a profit and never have to pay back the 50k :lol:
You don't have to pay taxes when you sell the trees?
Im doing my tiny little part to bankrupt them. i suggest you do the same.
I don't have any interest in filling out their paperwork and jumping through their hoops.
You are pretty much inviting the government into your life. That is fine for you, but I don't want to do that. I just want them to leave me alone. I want as little interaction with the government as possible.
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Yeah, I used to feel EXACTLY the same way as you do. At this point though, I've realized theres nothing that can be done to gradually bring down the size of the government. Its all or nothing with them. Might as well do my part to make it nothing by crushing them under their own weight.
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They pay me to maintain the trees, then when they mature, I sell them at a profit and never have to pay back the 50k :lol:
You don't have to pay taxes when you sell the trees?
Im doing my tiny little part to bankrupt them. i suggest you do the same.
I don't have any interest in filling out their paperwork and jumping through their hoops.
You are pretty much inviting the government into your life. That is fine for you, but I don't want to do that. I just want them to leave me alone. I want as little interaction with the government as possible.
Sure, you pay taxes on the trees when you sell them, but it will never amount to the 50k that you took from them.
I havent invited the government into my life. They are already there. Everytime I buy a gallon of gas, they take their cut. Everytime I drive I have to show my papers when I get pulled over. You are paying a tax on the internet as we speak in some direct and indirect ways. I see the moral position some of you guys are coming from, but were never gonna get rid of the government by any other means than by them going bankrupt. Do you wanna save them some money or cost them some money? I'll take the latter.
Trust me, I see exactly exactly where you guys are coming from, but they arent going to stay out of our lives just because we say "I refuse to participate" Look at that old crusty dude that was in the news recently. went off the grid and lived in a trailer with no government monopolized utility services.He was self sufficient and they STILL came and kicked him off his own land because they claimed he was "a danger to his own well being" They never have and they never will stop fucking with us liberty minded people, unless of course they are not there to begin with.
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Fair enough. But I doubt HD has such lofty intentions. These industry bailouts are a major hindrance for start ups and industrial progress that's my beef.
For example I doubt you will use your 50 gs to create the best damn Christmas trees for the best price to your customers.
I know damn well you are using it on dried food, 22Lr rounds, and porn. (that's what I would use it for anyway, minus the bullets and the food)
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Fair enough. But I doubt HD has such lofty intentions. These industry bailouts are a major hindrance for start ups and industrial progress that's my beef.
For example I doubt you will use your 50 gs to create the best damn Christmas trees for the best price to your customers.
I know damn well you are using it on dried food, 22Lr rounds, and porn. (that's what I would use it for anyway, minus the bullets and the food)
You are correct. What im saying though, is that in the game the government has set up for all businesses right now, intentions dont really matter. HD could have said "Fuck no, we aint gonna take no government bailouts!!!! Thats un-american!!!" and that wouldn't make a dimes worth of difference in the size or scope of the federal government. They would still be in just about as much debt as they are now. I'm the type of person that looks at the end results of an action and what environment facilitates those actions. Without a federal government present, HD would never get those bailouts. If we are to get to the point to where companies cannot get bailouts, we need to hope they get as many bailouts as possible and crash the feds party that facilitates the ability to do that as quickly as possible.
Its the end results that matter to me. The long term.
PS - Dude, I didnt think there was 50k worth of porn out there. I would widdle my dick down to a sliver by the time I got thought that much porn. :lol:
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Everytime I drive I have to show my papers when I get pulled over.
I try to drive in a way that won't get me pulled over. It pretty much works.
I see the moral position some of you guys are coming from, but were never gonna get rid of the government by any other means than by them going bankrupt.
I'm not even making a moral argument. I'm saying I try to avoid the government as much as possible. If you want to do things that put more government in your life, fine, have at it.
Even if one government goes bankrupt, does that mean all government will go away?
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Everytime I drive I have to show my papers when I get pulled over.
I try to drive in a way that won't get me pulled over. It pretty much works.
I see the moral position some of you guys are coming from, but were never gonna get rid of the government by any other means than by them going bankrupt.
I'm not even making a moral argument. I'm saying I try to avoid the government as much as possible. If you want to do things that put more government in your life, fine, have at it.
Even if one government goes bankrupt, does that mean all government will go away?
Driving a particular way in Illinois on the interstate wont make any difference. They pull ya over for absolutely NO reason, since they are all hard up for cash and are just fishing for people driving with no insurance or registration, no license, driving while suspended etc etc. They use all sorts of excuses like "you crossed over the yellow median line back there, thats why im pulling you over" When they know its utter bullshit in the first place. There was even a news story about it on the local news about their fishing expeditions. As their incomes drop, they are looking for new exciting ways of extracting cash out of peoples pockets.
I got pulled over twice in one day on the same mile of road. Once while going east on RT 72 in the morning and once going west when I was coming home. They used the same excuse both times. I was crossing the yellow line on the side of the lane. Both times they checked my registration, insurance and license. and let me go with a "warning". If they would have found any of that stuff, they woulda got me for 75 - 200 bucks and got exactly what they were looking for in the first place.
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You are law of attracting it.
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PS - Dude, I didnt think there was 50k worth of porn out there. I would widdle my dick down to a sliver by the time I got thought that much porn. :lol:
I would produse the ultimate porn masterpeace; Samson Donkey and the Deaf Midget Gangbang Tentacle Lesbian Sisters do Dallas. Just because there has to be a ultimate porn film. It will be hidden in some obscure link from redtube where if you spank the monkey enough you get to see it. "And now Al89 you have downloaded all 25000 of our tubes! you have now earned the right to see the ultimate porn!" and just the very image burned in ones mind will be jack material for a lifetime.
By the by. Does anyone know if the porn industry got the bailout they asked for?
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Even if one government goes bankrupt, does that mean all government will go away?
That's my thinking also.
Just two years ago Zimbabwe had runaway inflation (see here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe) Anyone curious about monetary policy might find the astounding inflation numbers in this article quite interesting) Yet the government is still there, and as far as I know, Mugabe, the racist, anti-white leader is still there.
The Soviet Union collapsed, yet they still have an authoritarian government there.
I've read that the American Revolution is pretty much unique in human history for this reason: Other violent revolutions have generally led to a government MORE authoritarian than the one overthrown. Here, just the opposite happened.
When the shit hits the fan in Washington, apparently either of two things will happen: they will inflate (print) their way out of it, or repudiate the debt. Either way will have gigantic repercussions that none of us have ever lived through.
But, if history is a lesson, the government will NOT go away; it could even be more authoritarian and murderous than it is now.
We will all find out in due time.
"May you live in interesting times." :D
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Interesting times indeed. I also love Terry Pratchett.
Us liberty people need a backup economy, a secret society in plain sight. That is the reason I jump to defend SLB and such. That's the reason I think the FSP is a important rallying point. We will never be able to take out the entire USA government financially. They go broke= Martial Law. I wish I could agree with Quickmike and think they will just throw in the towel but ah.... no.
Also becoming the producer/director of groundbreaking porn will be damn hard under martial law. :(
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I thought this thread was about the government bailing out HD-DVD manufacturers or something like that. I was ready to :lol:, then :x, and then :( .
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Us liberty people need a backup economy, a secret society in plain sight. That is the reason I jump to defend SLB and such. That's the reason I think the FSP is a important rallying point. We will never be able to take out the entire USA government financially. They go broke= Martial Law.
Yup!
But corporations can be taken down.
How much are y'all spending on junk the Holiday Season? Are you buying Droid phones that are Google-powered?
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How much are y'all spending on junk the Holiday Season? Are you buying Droid phones that are Google-powered?
Zero. I do not participate in the insanity known as "Christmas."
The 24th means nothing to me, nor does the 26th. On the 25th, I go to my sister's for the only day of the year where my entire family is together, we have a huge turkey dinner and a good time just being together. It is a great day, but nobody in my family focuses on "gifts." As my late father always said, "Christmas is for kids."
I take nothing but a bottle or two of wine. My sisters hate "the holidays" as much as I do.
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Us liberty people need a backup economy, a secret society in plain sight. That is the reason I jump to defend SLB and such. That's the reason I think the FSP is a important rallying point. We will never be able to take out the entire USA government financially. They go broke= Martial Law.
Yup!
But corporations can be taken down.
How much are y'all spending on junk the Holiday Season? Are you buying Droid phones that are Google-powered?
My folks believe in the holiday and I haven't moved to NH yet, so 'bout sixty bucks. Philosophically, why does someone need an ex-religious, now corporate sponsored holiday as an excuse to give gifts to people you love?
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I tell my kids Santa is real and that God is fake. My ex and I pitched in and bought our son a Nintendo DSi XL.. and just to "test it out and make sure it works" I opened it. It's pretty neat... first gadget of it's kind I've bought. Kid is 10 so he'll dig it for sure and I bought a little program for preschoolers for him to share it with his sis with. She's 4 and already has too much stuff so I'll probably get her another music box just to keep that tradition rolling. So I do participate, but never go crazy with a bunch of shit. My daughter's momma and I don't buy each other anything and I don't swap gifts with any other adults either. Family is scattered but we usually meet up at someone's house around the holidays.
I didn't weigh in on the HD bailout.. but I'm stikly agin it.