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Author Topic: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009  (Read 69753 times)

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sillyperson

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #240 on: April 16, 2009, 08:17:30 PM »

Has there been media coverage on this besides FTL and the Keene Sentinel?
Another of my critiques of the tactics of the CD folks is that one significant measure of CD is how much media it gets. It's great that "we" produce a lot of media in NH, but none of us own a mainstream, high-visibility news source.

The good example: the Outlaw Manicure. It got on WMUR-9 TV news, several local radio stations, the Union Leader newspaper. In short, excellent statewide mainstream coverage.

Unfortunately the CD people will bring the shit down on everyone else who has even a dim link to the FSP.
Yes and no. Those of us that are views as respectable folks -- people who are volunteering in the community, getting elected as Selectmen, and generally not involved in constant in-your-face attention-getting activism -- are well respected, and it' sgenerally known we're FSPers. In fact, Joel Winters (the 1st early-moving FSPer elected to the State House) is generally considered to be the most respected person in the entire 400-person body, in either party. It's worth noting that he was a sponsor of the bill that opted NH out of Real-ID.

But of course, "politics won't do anything for freedom"  :roll:

JWI

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #241 on: April 16, 2009, 08:27:11 PM »


But of course, "politics won't do anything for freedom"  :roll:

From my lurking on the respective message boards, the NHLA and political types have done a lot more.
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blackie

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #242 on: April 16, 2009, 10:07:06 PM »


http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=813.msg6778;topicseen#msg6778
Quote

Candlelight Vigil for Sam Dodson at Central Square in Keene

As you all must know by now the perils of Sam Dodson.

This date will mark One Week since Sam's abusive kidnappers stole his freedom and hurt him.

There will be a candlelight vigil for Sam on the grass and gazebo at Central Square in Keene.

We request 10 minutes of silence, meditation, prayer, reflection, or whatever you feel necessary.

Monday April 20th at 9:00 PM

Please, take candles with you and some to share.

Some copies of Richard's (aka Sam A. Robrin) song "I Will Record", sung to the tune "I Will Survive", will be passed around as well.  I'll post the song here shortly for any and all interested.

Other suggestions:

  Car Pool.
  Family members are welcome to support.
  Overhead projectors (I think BaldEagle has that covered).
  Red laser lights, if anyone has them, to illuminate a nearby wall with "Free Sam" or what have you.
  Everyone wear a blindfold (preferably black) because you are not allowed to see what is going on in Keene.
  Sign making on Saturday 9AM to 12noon (During Talkback) at the Ministry of Propaganda in Keene.
  This thread http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=17872.msg294819#msg294819  is intended to be used for planning as well so let's do what we can.  If anyone will do a press release that will be helpful as well.
  Will link to calendar and on other busy forums.
  If someone wants to arrange on Facebook, that will be helpful as well.
  Please spread this by any means you feel necessary.
  Freedom of speech, Freedom to Record, and any other freedoms of expression are all more than welcome.

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blackie

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #243 on: April 16, 2009, 10:26:20 PM »

Sam is doing a milk fast in jail.

http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=799.msg6755#msg6755

Sam's Dad:
Quote
Sam will not starve to death and he is not crazy. He is extremely intelligent. His intellectual is in the top 1% of the country. 

Ivy was with him for an hour or so today.  He is drinking a glass of milk.  Ivy was going to ask the jail to send him a vitamin each day and Sam told her he would take it.  She plans to see him tomorrow, and I told her to tell him "your Dad said to eat at least one meal per day".

Does anyone know if the jail checks your ID before you visit someone they have caged?


http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=799.msg6757#msg6757
Ivy:
Quote
VanWickler called me this morning and we spoke for about a half hour, and he also came down to the jail to meet me and asked my permission to come in with me and speak with Sam.  I agreed, and he spoke to Sam for about 15 minutes in my presence, mostly pursuading him to eat.  Sam's response was heart-wrenching.  He said "You have taken away all of my freedoms and liberties.  This is the one freedom I have left; the one thing I still have control over.  I am sure at some point you will take that from me as well and medically force nutrition in me, but you will have to do so with force."

Sam's Dad; yes they ask for your ID.  They take it from you for the entire time you are inside and return it to you when you leave.  Sam is not allowed visitors except for his legal counsel unless he processes, and as of the moment he still has not processed and may still not.
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Coconut

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #244 on: April 17, 2009, 12:05:48 AM »

The biggest problem with the CD that's going on is they are breaking the law for the sake of breaking laws.  Why?  What good is this going to do?  This is my biggest problem with activists.. 

I'm not sure how many times it's been said, or has to be said, Monday was not about "breaking laws for the sake of breaking laws."

Andrew Carroll's marijuana protest? Yes. Jesse's garden? Yes.

But Monday, we were following all the laws, and it still happened. Now, you can claim we should "go along to get along" with the men in uniforms, but you cannot claim that we were there  purposely break laws and get arrested. The bailiffs in that courtroom lobby do not even know the "order" they are arresting Sam over.

Note: Tomorrow morning I will be looking into submitting a motion to record the May 1 trials. I will attempt to follow their rules, and we'll see how that goes.
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anarchir

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #245 on: April 17, 2009, 01:28:30 AM »

I fully support those who do go into the politics to work from the inside, but I think we still need the work of the CD people (well guided work hopefully) so as to spread the word and speed up the gov.'s demise.
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Jíraxis 270145

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #246 on: April 17, 2009, 02:55:51 AM »

Now, I again ask the question, mostly of anyone involved with today's events in Keene:
What is the tactical goal, and how effective are these tactics at attaining that goal?

Every incident seems to inspire more people to move to Keene, for one.

The long-term strategy of a lot of civil disobedience seems to be get the State to merely leave alone those who are engaging in such civil disobedience. Make it too costly in terms of money, effort, and publicity for them to bother going after you. If this is achieved, weíve basically ended the existence of the State without changing any of its laws. That is, if the State starts allowing people to voluntarily opt outóthose who vow to make it too costly to not let them opt outóitís not really ďthe StateĒ anymore. It becomes a voluntary model of government.

Hereís an essay that Dale wrote that gets into some of this:ó
http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2008/08/25/anarchism-the-new-atheism/
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Jíraxis 270145

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #247 on: April 17, 2009, 02:56:19 AM »

I just think that the main purpose of CD right now is to get more activists to move to NH.
I'm not really sure how that works. "I heard this guy tried to get arrested, and did, so I am moving to NH!"

I just think that the main purpose of CD right now is to get more activists to move to NH. 

Well that's funny, because that very fact is what is holding a lot of people back, from moving to NH.

A nice demonstration of why people who arenít even here probably shouldnít comment on whatís going on.

Every time I go out to Keene (maybe once a month), there are half a dozen new activists I hadnít met before. Nearly every single one of them moved because of what they heard going on out there. I also know a handful of people who first moved elsewhere in New Hampshire, and then moved to Keene after seeing thatís where most of the action is.

Have any more theories I can demolish with actual facts?
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Jíraxis 270145

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #248 on: April 17, 2009, 02:56:46 AM »

Yes. First of all, the system is going to collapse all on its own, because it is evil and broken. While CD can have some effect, speeding up the natural process of entropy on the sly is a far better method when outnumbered, because you're not losing your people in the process. Bleeding the beast, nonviolent monkeywrenching, nonviolent "sabotage" (Both physical and systemic), participating in the underground marketplace (Of both people and products), etc.

All of this is going on here, too. Instead of bitching about what you think wonít work, how about you just do something you think will?

And no one is ďlosingĒ anyone, either. Sam will be out of jail eventually, just like Lauren, Kat, Russell, Dave Ridley, Ian, and all the other people who have done these kinds of things. And heíll probably inspire at least two or three more people to move here on account of what heís done.
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Jíraxis 270145

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #249 on: April 17, 2009, 02:57:00 AM »

I just think that the main purpose of CD right now is to get more activists to move to NH. 
Well that's funny, because that very fact is what is holding a lot of people back, from moving to NH.

Some people act like you shit in their milk if you point out that being hauled off to jail actually hurts the FSP in any way: "If they don't like it, then we didn't need those people!"

So, I just shrug and enjoy the entertainment, M$-style.

My issue is and has been not the tactic of CD as such, but rather the specific ways it's been used. Aside from 1-2 extremely good examples (eg., Outlaw Manicure), most of the CD has been counterproductive, because it has alienated the populace. Case in point: the fact that the soup kitchen would prefer less volunteers, than to deal with the FreeKeene crowd.

Have you talked to the people in Keene about the recent town council meeting about Pedrazaís (the yellow restaurant with the yellow faÁade)? One of the councillors was upset when the gaggle of activists left. Seems he wouldíve appreciated we stick around for another agenda itemówhere the planning board was also trying to zone his own building out from under him. Naturally, the owner of Pedrazaís is pleased with having the activists around. The movement has also picked up many other locals and several KSC students. (And this is just what I learnt from my single most recent visit out there. I donít follow nearly everything going on in Keene.)

There are always going to be failures among victories. But anyone can point to just the failures if thatís all theyíre looking for to prove a point.
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voodoo

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #250 on: April 17, 2009, 03:32:37 AM »

Have any more theories I can demolish with actual facts?

1) Go here: http://wiki.freetalklive.com
2) Write it all down - the who, what, where, when, why of Keene civil disobedience
3) Reference it liberally.
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John Shaw

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #251 on: April 17, 2009, 09:12:52 AM »

All of this is going on here, too. Instead of bitching about what you think wonít work, how about you just do something you think will?

So... You are making an assumption that I'm not already, huh? Funny that you say this immediately after posting this gem:

Quote
A nice demonstration of why people who arenít even here probably shouldnít comment on whatís going on.


Quote
Have any more theories I can demolish with actual facts?

Most of the people moving to NH aren't Libertarians, they're a bunch of religious constitutionalists with ZERO philosophical backing for their views beyond the NAP. Not only that, your little hero of the day is promoting the idea that people deserve whatever they get from the government anyway, while at the same time hypocritically defying it. He should just accept the fact that he wants the government to be a giant, overbearing monstrosity, because it obviously wouldn't be so is he didn't want it that way.

Most of the early adopters of the FSP (The REAL fucking early adopters, you know, the ones who signed up back before the FSP was supposed to be canceled in 2006?) were a bunch of LP members (For what that's worth) and Objectivists. News flash, the vast majority of those people walked away. There were a couple hundred.

I know, here comes "Yeah well we don't need them anyway! They're a bunch of quitters!"

No. No. They are doing exactly what they signed up to do. They're just not going to NH. I can name a good fifty people I know personally that have moved... "South". And what do they have that the NH movers don't?

A. Jobs.
B. Money.
C. A place to live.

They're your actual movers and shakers, who work their asses off, make a buck, and keep their heads down while living free, rather than standing around out in the street calling themselves winners because they can yell at some street cop, and calling themselves even bigger winners if said street cop pays them any attention by kicking their ass.

But yeah, you guys keep those cameras running and have a great big circle jerk in your insulated little community, where everyone has convinced everyone else that ya'll are making a bunch of massive changes. Go on and on about me, and make the very very ignorant assumption that because I've got criticisms of what you folks are doing, that I MUST not be doing anything, myself. Maybe I'm just not a fucking attention whoring masochist.

Goddammit, it seems like every interaction I have with a holier than thou free stater makes me more anti FSP. Used to be that I WAS an FSPer, and then I decided to be a non-FSPer, and you self righteous pricks are turning me into an anti-FSP person with your high horse, arrogant comments.

You are not the center of the freedom movement. You are a part of it. You are not in the only place that matters. You will not win other liberty lovers over to your cause by calling them names for not joining your little collective.

Collectivism sucks, and it seems like the most vocal proponents of the FSP are turning into a bunch of collectivists. Good fucking luck.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 09:14:23 AM by John Shaw »
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blackie

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #252 on: April 17, 2009, 09:15:50 AM »

The biggest problem with the CD that's going on is they are breaking the law for the sake of breaking laws.  Why?  What good is this going to do?  This is my biggest problem with activists.. 

I'm not sure how many times it's been said, or has to be said, Monday was not about "breaking laws for the sake of breaking laws."
That is weird, cus I heard Ian say on FTL that Sam knew he was going to get arrested before the event took place.



Quote
But Monday, we were following all the laws, and it still happened.
Are you claiming to know all the laws?

Quote
Note: Tomorrow morning I will be looking into submitting a motion to record the May 1 trials. I will attempt to follow their rules, and we'll see how that goes.
This is the motion form I got from the Franklin District Court a few years ago, but I'm not sure how motions work if you are not a party in the trials.
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/374/motion.pdf
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blackie

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #253 on: April 17, 2009, 09:28:42 AM »

The long-term strategy of a lot of civil disobedience seems to be get the State to merely leave alone those who are engaging in such civil disobedience.
That won't happen.

And no one is ďlosingĒ anyone, either. Sam will be out of jail eventually, just like Lauren, Kat, Russell, Dave Ridley, Ian, and all the other people who have done these kinds of things.
You are losing time and resources. And the support of the general population of NH. CD make you guys look crazy.

If the FSP works out, I will move back to NH.

I think I have better chances of hitting the jackpot of Mega Millions.
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slayerboy

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #254 on: April 17, 2009, 09:36:42 AM »

The biggest problem with the CD that's going on is they are breaking the law for the sake of breaking laws.  Why?  What good is this going to do?  This is my biggest problem with activists..  

I'm not sure how many times it's been said, or has to be said, Monday was not about "breaking laws for the sake of breaking laws."
That is weird, cus I heard Ian say on FTL that Sam knew he was going to get arrested before the event took place.
Exactly what I heard.

Goddammit, it seems like every interaction I have with a holier than thou free stater makes me more anti FSP. Used to be that I WAS an FSPer, and then I decided to be a non-FSPer, and you self righteous pricks are turning me into an anti-FSP person with your high horse, arrogant comments.

You are not the center of the freedom movement. You are a part of it. You are not in the only place that matters. You will not win other liberty lovers over to your cause by calling them names for not joining your little collective.

Collectivism sucks, and it seems like the most vocal proponents of the FSP are turning into a bunch of collectivists. Good fucking luck.
Completely agree, and all the hype about this on FTL is starting to wear thin on me.  I signed up a few months ago for the FSP because I liked the idea.  But I'm now not sure I want to be associated with this group.  I understand not EVERYONE who is in the FSP is practicing CD, but CD is giving the FSP a bad name.

Here's my idea of what I thought the FSP was:
I save up some money to pay off some debts while looking for a job in NH to replace my current job in NY.  Meanwhile also scouting out places to rent or buy.  I planned on moving in 2 years or so.  My thought was that I was making myself more free by moving to a state that valued personal freedoms.  I didn't have any intentions of breaking laws for the purpose of breaking laws.  I wanted to go there to be away from the chains of NY state.  Find a decent paying job, meet people that have the same ideals as me, and maybe do some activism.

With all these CD'ers running around trying to intentionally rile up the sleeping giant, I'm not so sure I want to be a part of that.  If you poke a sleeping bear with a stick one time too many, you will eventually get your ass kicked, miss part of your face, be paralyzed, or maybe killed.  I see CD as not providing information that I legally don't have to provide if asked by a cop.  I don't see CD as breaking laws hoping that the giant will rethink it's decisions.

It doesn't matter that it's non-violent.  It's intentionally pissing people off and interfering in their lives without being provoked.

In all honesty, if this stuff keeps up, I may end up canceling my AMP subscription.  I could be completely wrong about all this and maybe what Sam and the other CD'ers are doing might make a difference.  I'll hold my decision for a few more weeks.  You guys are attracting the wrong group of people who just want to start stuff because they think it's wrong and not realizing that you're probably doing more harm than good, and probably endangering the freedom of those around you more than helping it.
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