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Author Topic: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009  (Read 81214 times)

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Ecolitan

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #180 on: April 16, 2009, 12:15:21 AM »

So what's everyone think?

Worth it?

I suppose the end result of it all would determine whether or not the CD was appropriate.

Depends on the goal.  I have a suspicion he achieved exactly what he wanted to.

As someone who's been shit on a bit by cops, I'm not at all a fan of the acting.  Besides, it was a lot more fun to ask them: "Why did you just punch me when I was laying on my stomache?  Are you afraid I'm so capable of kicking all four of your asses when I'm already on the ground that you had to further disable me?  Doesn't that make you a scared little pussy?"

No, I didn't say that exactly, actually what I came up with on the spot was often much better, adrenaline must make you think faster.
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anarchir

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #181 on: April 16, 2009, 12:51:52 AM »

Ok, I havent read the past 2 pages of this thread, but perhaps the CD people need to step up their disobedience a bit?
Actually go around and break vastly worse rules? Storm a building and hold it under siege? I still like my idea of going after a government building and taking all their paper.
While all the cops were distracted with these CD people, other activists coulda been going apes hit elsewhere. Anyone else think that AnarchoJesse's garden woulda been better had he gotten huge groups of people to quickly dig it in the dead of night (but still properly done) or any other time right under the cops noses but without them getting caught?
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #182 on: April 16, 2009, 12:54:14 AM »

Ok, I havent read the past 2 pages of this thread, but perhaps the CD people need to step up their disobedience a bit?
Actually go around and break vastly worse rules? Storm a building and hold it under siege? I still like my idea of going after a government building and taking all their paper.
While all the cops were distracted with these CD people, other activists coulda been going apes hit elsewhere. Anyone else think that AnarchoJesse's garden woulda been better had he gotten huge groups of people to quickly dig it in the dead of night (but still properly done) or any other time right under the cops noses but without them getting caught?

I'm sorry, is this the "really awful advice" thread?
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anarchir

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #183 on: April 16, 2009, 12:56:24 AM »

*shrugs*  :?
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anarchir

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #184 on: April 16, 2009, 01:09:40 AM »

I'm really tired so I'm not gonna defend my statement right now. What I will do is post something I think is great advice. When/if I get to the FSP this is the kinda shit I'm gonna do:
http://www.peacemagazine.org/198.htm

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=28773.msg535223;topicseen#msg535223
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Low-Eight

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #185 on: April 16, 2009, 07:27:21 AM »

CD seems to have the most public relations value when the prohibited conduct is of a kind that most people feel shouldn't be unlawful.

Andrew Carroll's case is a good example although AFAIK "most" people only agree that people are justified in breaking the prohibition against marijuana possession if they have a need, like a medical issue.  So his case would be better if it included those kind of facts as well.  Just a thought for future work.  I haven't seen/heard any of the recordings of Sam screaming but I don't think it is a big deal even if he was acting.  Sure, it would be best if his screams were a reasonable response to some horrific torture, but without video evidence or (big) broken bones something like that is pretty hard to prove.

Regardless of the effect of any CD on the status of the FSP and the "message of liberty" in the eyes of the public, those who think that the Keene activists' efforts are worthless or worse, represent some kind of windfall for the state, are mistaken.  The state's resources are not infinite and it is much more profitable to prosecute those who quickly plead guilty and agree to pay fines and court costs.  Anyone who lives or works in Keene should be thanking these people for diverting the attention of the machine away from their own allegedly unlawful activites.  Yes I wrote "allegedly" because innocent people get charged all the time.  Prosecutors do what they do and won't continue to collect their checks if they simply sit around the office and do nothing all day.  The more time they spend on cases like Sam's, the less time they have to prosecute other victimless crimes.

It would be best?  That seems a bit cold to me.  I would find it much preferable if he were acting :(  I don't want anyone to get hurt
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Spideynw

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #186 on: April 16, 2009, 09:38:17 AM »

I just think that the main purpose of CD right now is to get more activists to move to NH.  CD will not become very productive at changing the state until there are enough activists.  And 20,000 activists in NH would definitely be enough to get things changed.  The state would not have enough resources to take on 20,000 people.
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blackie

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #187 on: April 16, 2009, 09:55:06 AM »

I just think that the main purpose of CD right now is to get more activists to move to NH.
I'm not really sure how that works. "I heard this guy tried to get arrested, and did, so I am moving to NH!"

Quote
  And 20,000 activists in NH would definitely be enough to get things changed.  The state would not have enough resources to take on 20,000 people.
At this point, 20,000 activists is a pipe dream. And even if there were 20,000 activists, do you think the state would just give up?
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Low-Eight

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #188 on: April 16, 2009, 10:09:02 AM »

20,000 activists would represent a sizable portion of the population.  And there were natives with sam as well. . .
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John Shaw

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #189 on: April 16, 2009, 10:15:53 AM »

I just think that the main purpose of CD right now is to get more activists to move to NH. 

Well that's funny, because that very fact is what is holding a lot of people back, from moving to NH.

CD will not become very productive at changing the state until there are enough activists.  

I have determined that this is exactly why the FSP isn't going to effect change. "Enough activists" means "Our gang". You can't fight collectivism with collectivism, and that's exactly what it seems like the early movers are trying to do: Put together a big enough gang of self sacrificing martyrs to throw themselves at the wall of the state until they are soaked in their own blood.

And 20,000 activists in NH would definitely be enough to get things changed.  

Not through CD.

The state would not have enough resources to take on 20,000 people.

Study up on the 1960's. There were riots on college campuses that had crowds that big. A couple hundred cops, some tear gas and some fire hoses sorted them right the fuck out.

You have a small crowd, and the thugs will round a few people up until everyone disperses, which is exactly what happened the other day.

You have a giant crowd, and they get the riot gear out and start shooting people with bean bags and rubber bullets, and they will stomp the shit out of whoever gets in their way.

Collectivism is not a fucking cure for collectivism.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #190 on: April 16, 2009, 10:22:12 AM »

Put together a big enough gang of self sacrificing martyrs to throw themselves at the wall of the state until they are soaked in their own blood.

Well that IS the only way I've known non-violence to work.  Is there another non-violent way?
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John Shaw

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #191 on: April 16, 2009, 10:30:59 AM »

Put together a big enough gang of self sacrificing martyrs to throw themselves at the wall of the state until they are soaked in their own blood.

Well that IS the only way I've known non-violence to work.  Is there another non-violent way?

Yes. First of all, the system is going to collapse all on its own, because it is evil and broken. While CD can have some effect, speeding up the natural process of entropy on the sly is a far better method when outnumbered, because you're not losing your people in the process. Bleeding the beast, nonviolent monkeywrenching, nonviolent "sabotage" (Both physical and systemic), participating in the underground marketplace (Of both people and products), etc.

There are many nonviolent things you can do to speed up the collapse of the state that have nothing to do with self sacrifice and direct confrontation, and at the end of the day, ideally, no one is locked up in a cell, so your numbers are far less diminished over time.
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Spideynw

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #192 on: April 16, 2009, 10:36:34 AM »

I just think that the main purpose of CD right now is to get more activists to move to NH.
I'm not really sure how that works. "I heard this guy tried to get arrested, and did, so I am moving to NH!"

If that were the case, then no.  But that is not the case.  The case is, "a guy tried to use a video camera in a lobby of a courthouse and was arrested for it, and four trumped up charges were brought against him, all for a victimless crime and now he is being held for $10k bail!  And four others were arrested to boot for being in the lounge!"

Quote
  And 20,000 activists in NH would definitely be enough to get things changed.  The state would not have enough resources to take on 20,000 people.
At this point, 20,000 activists is a pipe dream. And even if there were 20,000 activists, do you think the state would just give up?
[/quote]

Would the state just go away?  No.  Would the state have to change their laws to not punishing victimless crimes?  I would think so.
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John Shaw

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #193 on: April 16, 2009, 10:45:17 AM »

Would the state just go away?  No.  Would the state have to change their laws to not punishing victimless crimes?  I would think so.

Couple million people protested the 1994 assault weapons ban, in state state capitols and in D.C. in 1994. Didn't do a fucking thing. As a matter of fact all it did was kill Bush One's chances of getting reelected, which meant absolutely nothing in the long term.

More people per capita show up for anti abortion protests every day, all across the nation. Doesn't do a damned thing.
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davann

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Re: Group of activists arrested, Keene District Court April 13, 2009
« Reply #194 on: April 16, 2009, 11:02:45 AM »

Put together a big enough gang of self sacrificing martyrs to throw themselves at the wall of the state until they are soaked in their own blood.

Well that IS the only way I've known non-violence to work.  Is there another non-violent way?

Yes. First of all, the system is going to collapse all on its own, because it is evil and broken. While CD can have some effect, speeding up the natural process of entropy on the sly is a far better method when outnumbered, because you're not losing your people in the process. Bleeding the beast, nonviolent monkeywrenching, nonviolent "sabotage" (Both physical and systemic), participating in the underground marketplace (Of both people and products), etc.

There are many nonviolent things you can do to speed up the collapse of the state that have nothing to do with self sacrifice and direct confrontation, and at the end of the day, ideally, no one is locked up in a cell, so your numbers are far less diminished over time.

I like what Shaw says here. Makes sense. I have never been in a position where I had to chose between CD and "on the sly" monkeywrenching so I guess I have never really analysed it. Seems the monkeywrenching would have greater effect without the possible bad publicity. CD seems to be a less effective and risky way of railing against the state. It still has it place in the right circumstances. But as someone else stated, it has to be done in a way the majority of peoples can quickly spot the injustice. Like medical weed.

Shaw has once again changed my opinion.
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