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Poll

Where does your liberty come from?

God or Other Intelligent Designer
Evolutionary Achievement
Governmental Decree
None of the Above

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Author Topic: From where do you derive your liberty?  (Read 9834 times)

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BKO

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2005, 05:14:42 PM »

People derive their liberty by working for it.
Unless you strive to keep it, you won't have it.


Why isn't this option on the poll?
Because it falls under the option 'evolutionary achievement', and if you didn't have the brain capacity of a snail you might have recognized this.

William Pearson - LibertyTiger

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2005, 11:48:20 PM »

People derive their liberty by working for it.
Unless you strive to keep it, you won't have it.


Why isn't this option on the poll?

Because you have the right to liberty whether you strive for it or not.

Gabo

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2005, 06:44:24 PM »

Because it falls under the option 'evolutionary achievement', and if you didn't have the brain capacity of a snail you might have recognized this.
Lets see.......

Evolutionary Achievement means I have opposable thumbs and walk upright.
Working for liberty means I voice the value of liberty and refuse to let others take it.

Please explain again how these are the same thing.
Or better yet, explain how the first one grants me liberty.



Quote
Because you have the right to liberty whether you strive for it or not.
The poll is on where you derive your liberty, not where you derive your rights.
It doesn't matter what our rights are if they're constantly violated.

Being a human may mean we have the right to liberty, but it certainly doesn't mean we have liberty (as one can observe in our current state of the world).
The ONLY way to actually have and maintain liberty is to work for it.
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BKO

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2005, 05:13:01 AM »

I sometimes only question Darwin when DE-EVOLUTION is ever present and clearly substantiated. :roll:

Why god, oh why must we live with these idiot fucks?


*crickets*




Maybe everything is a lie and Awakenfree is like the smartest guy in the world?





HAHAHAHAHAHAA!

fourthgeek

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2006, 07:18:39 PM »

Anyone who thinks he has an inalienable right except those rights which he creates for himself is deluding himself.

Rights can only be assured as long as they are secured. The fact that people are killed, kidnapped, etc., both by "God", nature, and law, shows that there are in fact no rights assured by any of these forces.

However, I chose evolutionary dominance, because it is the closest. The dominant have and will always determine the rights of the underlings. How laughable would it  be to learn that the lowly insects debate the existence of "the inalienable rights of man", and debate the details thereof - some even claiming to have the authority to decide such matters!
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Grey

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2006, 10:56:52 PM »

People derive their liberty by working for it.
Unless you strive to keep it, you won't have it.


Why isn't this option on the poll?
Because it falls under the option 'evolutionary achievement', and if you didn't have the brain capacity of a snail you might have recognized this.

lol
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You get what you give. So, give.

xAlpha

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2006, 09:16:25 AM »

I was rather surprised by the number of atheist on this board, simply because I have always believed, as our founders did, that our rights were derived from our Creator. Many of our founding documents, especially the Declaration of Independence hinge on the fact that there is a supreme Being, a Creator, God. If you are atheist or agnostic, from where do you derive your rights? Government can only take them away. Do we earn rights through our evolutionary supremacy?

My motive of asking this question is simply for my own enlightenment. This will probably end up spawning a debate, but that is not intended by me.

Rights are social constructs.  They only are invented by man.

I don't believe in "natural rights" because I think the concept is groundless.   I think it's difficult to prove that God himself gave man rights.  How do you even know that God exists?  No major religion explicitly states that man has the rights to life, liberty and property.

My religion, in fact, does talk about rights to life, liberty, and property. The Torah is filled with how sacred life is, and how important it is that Adonai granted it to us. Killing another human is not only a sin, it's one of the "Big 10". Liberty is mentioned frequently as well, especially if you think about Exodus - thousands of slaves rebelling and leaving their Egyptian captors (albeit with the help of the almighty). Even Jonah had the liberty to disobey G-d, as do all humans with free will. And property is HUGE in the old testament. That's why whole reason Jews identify Israel as "theirs", because it is the property HaShem promised us in the Torah.

I believe our rights are granted by our creator, however, Thomas Jefferson was agnostic, so you can't say that all of our founding fathers believed this. They're natural rights, whether they be granted by nature or G-d or the FSM is irrelevant - all people everywhere have the same rights.
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BKO

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2006, 12:12:41 PM »

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The "Ancient Story" went something like this....

1. The ancient peoples reasoned that no one on Earth could ever lay claim of ownership to the Great Orb of Day. It must belong to the unseen Creator of the Universe. It was, figuratively speaking, not man's, but "GOD'S SUN". Truly, "God's Sun/Son was...
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.

2. As stated before, in the dark cold of night man realised his utter vulnerability to the elements. Each night, mankind was forced to wait for the " Risen Sun" to chase away the physical and mental insecurity brought on by the darkness. Therefore, the morning Sun focused man's attention on heavenly dependents for his frail, short existence on Earth, and in doing so, it became the appropriate symbol of divine benevolence from heaven.

3. So just as small fire brought limited light into man's own little world of darkness, likewise the "Great Fire of Day" served the whole Earth with its heavenly presence.
For this reason, it was said at Deut 4:24, and Heb 12:29 that the God of the Bible was a "Consuming Fire" in heaven. And so He is!

4. It was accepted by all that man was bound to a life on Earth, but the sky was God the Father's abode - His dwelling place. Naturally, God's Son/Sun would also reside with his Father " up in HEAVEN".

5. Ancient man saw in his male offspring his own image and likeness, and his own existence as a father was proved by the person of his son. It was assumed that God's 'Sun was but a visible representative of the unseen Creator in heaven. So it was said, "When you have seen the Sun, you have seen the Father ". or "The Father is glorified in his Sun".

6. Ancient man had no problem understanding that all life on Earth depended directly on life-giving energy from the Sun. Consequently, all life was lost without the Sun. It followed that God's 'Sun' was nothing less than "Our very Saviour".
If you don't think so, wait 'till it don't come up!

7. Since life is energy, and energy from the Sun gave life, and we sustained our very existence by taking energy in from our food (which came directly from God's Sun), the Sun must give up its life supporting energy so that we may continue to live.
"God's Sun gives his life for us to live."

8. While it was plainly true that our life came from and was sustained each day by "Our Saviour... God's Sun", it was and would be true only as long as the Sun would return each morning. Our hope of salvation would be secure only in a "RISEN saviour". For if he did not rise from his grave of darkness,all would be lost. All the world waited patiently for His 'imminent return". The Divine Father would never leave us at the mercy of this world of darkness. His Heavenly promise concerning his Sun was surely that..."He would come again"...to light our path, and save those lost in the darkness ... And He still does...
every morning about 5:30 am.

9. Logically, even if man himself died, as long as the Sun comes up each day, life on Earth will continue forever. Therefore, it was said in the ancient texts that everlasting life was "the gift" that the Father gives through his Sun. For..."God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten SUN that we may have life everlasting"....on Earth!
Not for you personally - but ON EARTH... everlasting life!

10. Since evil and harm lurked at every turn in the fearful dark of night, all evil or harmful deeds were naturally, the..."works of darkness."

11. With the return of the Sun each morning, man felt more secure in his world and therefore, was at peace. Therefore, God's 'Sun' was with his warm rays of life and hope...The Great "Prince of Peace".

12. And of course the reverse was equally true. The dark evil of night was ruled by none other than..."Prince of Darkness"... The EVIL / DEVIL.

13. Our English words 'Good' and 'God' we get from the German word 'Goth' as in 'Gothic'. Now we see God is Good, and Devil is Evil

14. It was only a short step to see "The Light of God's Sun" equated with the light of truth - and evil equated with darkness. From then on, it was simple to understand...
"LIGHT was GOOD - DARK was BAD."

15. That being true, then the Great Orb of Day (God's Sun) could rightly say of itself,
"I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, and no man comes to the Father except through me", or one comes to God Only by the Light of Truth.

Quote
16. We should all "give thanks" to the Father for sending us His "Sun". For the peace and tranquillity he brings to our life is even called 'Solace' - from "Solar" = Sun.

17. We now have before us two (2) cosmic brothers - one very good, and one very evil. One brings the "truth to light" with the "light of truth". The other is the opposite, or in opposition to the light - "The Opposer"...
Prince of this World of Darkness-
The "Devil".

18. It is at this point that we come to Egypt. More than 3,000 years before Christianity began, the early morning "Sun/ Saviour" was pictured in Egypt as the "New Born Babe". The infant saviour's name was "HORUS".

19. The early morning Sun or "New Born Babe", was pictured in two ways.
A) The Dove - Bringer of Peace
B) The Hawk - God of War
(who punishes the enemies of God!).

20. At daybreak. this wonderful, newborn child, God's 'Sun', is ... 'Born Again' Horus is Risen. Even today, when the Sun comes up, we see it on the "Horus-Risen", or "Horizon". His life was also divided into 12 parts or steps across Heaven each day: 12 HORUS = 12 HOURS. This is the origin of the modern " 12 Step Program". Horus is the (new-born) Sun, or the Bringer of the Light. In Latin, Light Bringer is Lucis, or Lucifer, or Luke.

21. But now, what about the evil brother of God's Sun, that old rascally "Prince of Darkness" himself? In the Egyptian, he was called "SET". We are told in the Bible that when God's Sun died, He left the world in the hands of the Evil Prince of Darkness. This evil prince took over the world at "SON-SET".

22. It was generally observed that 'God's Sun' could be depended upon to return in the same manner that he left, namely, "On a Cloud""..and that "Every eye will see Him"" ... Every evening, go out and watch the Sun leave this world "on a cloud". And next morning, watch to see Him return on a cloud. And every eye will see him come again! ... Unless you're blind!

23. Keep in mind 'God's Sun' symbolically represented the light of truth, but was condemned by His enemies who could not endure the light of truth in their life. The ancients taught that the very act of opposing or denying the light of truth to the point of killing it, happened in one's own mind! When we are confronted with the harsh realities of life, the light of truth, which we do not wish to face, and which runs counter to our views, such truth is judged in your mind, or judged "in the temple area" of your brain, and put to death in your head ! Therefore, 'God's Sun - The Truth and The Light - is put to death at "GOLGOTHA" , or "PLACE OF THE SKULL ", located somewhere between your ears! This putting to death of the light of truth in your mind is always accompanied by two thieves: Regret for the past and Fear of the future.

24. And of course God's 'Sun' goes to His death wearing a "corona" - Latin for "Crown of Thorns" . Remember the Statue of Liberty? To this day, Kings still wear a round crown of thorns, symbolising the rays of the Sun!

25. God's 'Sun' brought His wonderful light to the world, and distributed it over 12 months. So it was said, God's 'Sun' had 12 companions, or helpers, that assisted His life-saving work. So it was, God's 'Sun' had 12 apostles (or months) that followed Him religiously through His life. Incidentally, now you know why the American jury system has 12 jurors who help bring the truth to light, with the "Light of Truth".

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26. As far back as we can go into the ancient world, we find that all known cultures had a "Three-in-one" Triune God. The very first trinity was simply the three stages of the life of the Sun.

A) New Born Savior at dawn.

B) Mature, full-grown (The Most High) at 12 (High) noon.

C) Old and dying, at the end of day (going back to The Father).

All three were of course One Divinity - The Sun
three different phases, but one God!
The Trinity is truly a mystery...Like electricity, radio, TV, and jumbo-jets are all a mystery to the un-enlightened mind!

27. The Egyptians knew that the Sun was at its highest point in the sky (at high noon). At that point, one offered prayers to the "Most High" God! To the ancients, the sky was the abode, or heavenly temple, of the "Most High". Therefore, God's 'Sun' was doing His heavenly Father's work of enlightening all in the temple at 12 ...not 12 years old, but 12 noon!

28. The world of ancient man kept track of times and seasons by the movement of the Sun daily, monthly, and yearly. For this, the sundial and sun calendars were devised. Not only the daily movement of the Sun was tracked on the round dial, but also the whole year was charted on a round Sun calendar dial. Examples: Ancient Mexican, Mayan, Inca, Aztec, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Celtic, Aryan, etc. With this method, certain new concepts emerged in the mind of ancient man.

RELIGION is not exactly a LIE....it's just a different way to try and understand our UNIVERSE and OURSELVES.  I personally believe there is a GOD....but we don't need fairy tales to tell us what the seasons are and what the most important part of this life is for.

I don't like organized religion, because they are only tools for control...but I dislike the scientific movement and "evolution" even more.


Sorry, I didn't want to get off topic, I apologize.  I thought that somebody would find this info to be kind of cool.

lapafrax

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2006, 05:26:24 PM »

Quote
I believe our rights are granted by our creator,

Which cannot be proven.
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bonerjoe

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2006, 06:04:52 PM »

Nothing can be proven. For all we know, we live in the Matrix. But that still doesn't explain who created The Matrix. Or who created the sentient lifeforms who created The Matrix. Etc.
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BKO

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2006, 06:11:42 PM »

Nothing can be proven. For all we know, we live in the Matrix. But that still doesn't explain who created The Matrix. Or who created the sentient lifeforms who created The Matrix. Etc.
I'm sorry, but dog shit is real, that can be proven.  Ever step in dog shit?  Tell me that's not real!

bonerjoe

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2006, 06:17:34 PM »

Are your memories your past, or is your past your memories?
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BKO

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2006, 06:19:42 PM »

There is no teacher who can teach anything new....he can only help us to remember the things we have always known.

Grey

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2006, 09:53:09 PM »

Probably the saddest thing you'll ever see is a mosquito sucking on a mummy. Forget it, little friend.
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You get what you give. So, give.

lapafrax

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Re: From where do you derive your liberty?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2006, 02:11:11 PM »

Nothing can be proven.

Yes, natural rights can't.

Quote
For all we know, we live in the Matrix.

Uh-huh?


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