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Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: fatcat on January 17, 2010, 08:05:14 PM

Title: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: fatcat on January 17, 2010, 08:05:14 PM
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A fairly enlightening documentary two parter that just finished in the UK. The guy keeps it pretty non biased, he says he goes into it with no agenda and it pretty much comes off that way.

Although I'm sure extreme pro Hamas and pro Israel people will think he's not hard enough on either side.

Unfortunately I think the novelty of Ross Kemp doing this kind of shit will be lost on the non-UK members.

Some of the people interviewed are really fascinating, and some really heart breaking footage on both sides.

From Gaza visiting with would be Hamas suicide bombers, tunnel kings, the effects of the blockage and just average gazans who want to be left alone

to Israel, visiting with the IDF, the effects of terrorism and covering the internal divisions between secular Israel and religious fundamentalism, and average Israelis who just want to be left alone.

Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 17, 2010, 09:04:22 PM
Good stuff.  The man has balls.  I wish I could watch more but YouTube likes to fuck me around.  Maybe I'll look for some torrents by this cat. 

Thanks. 
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 17, 2010, 09:08:41 PM
I'm watching it.  Keep in mind I've actually been to Gaza, and I'm extremely skeptical towards "unbiased" stuff because I don't believe it's possible to be completely unbiased.  I'll call bullshit if I think it's warranted, but the first couple minutes seems pretty decent.

This guy definitely has balls.  Except that he has a press pass and for him to get accepted into Gaza by Hamas means that he's going to be treated specially for propaganda purposes.  He still has balls though.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 17, 2010, 09:17:36 PM
I can be unbiased because I don't have a side. 
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 18, 2010, 02:48:54 AM
Watching the Gangs series. 

London gangs are a bunch of fags.

Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: fatcat on January 18, 2010, 06:33:23 AM
Watching the Gangs series.  

London gangs are a bunch of fags.

Yup.

You should check the one on Polish neo nazi gangs, they're fucking crazy.

I'm watching it.  Keep in mind I've actually been to Gaza, and I'm extremely skeptical towards "unbiased" stuff because I don't believe it's possible to be completely unbiased.  I'll call bullshit if I think it's warranted, but the first couple minutes seems pretty decent.

If you watch the Gaza one first it might come off as a little biased because he doesn't really mention much about Israel but thats what the other part is for.

I think you'll probably be surprised, he doesn't just go for the easy targets of people who've been worst effected and hate the other side (though he does cover them).

There's quite a few people he talks to on both sides that aren't full of hate and looking in revenge even when they've been badly fucked over which is pretty amazing to see.

Obviously its hard to cover the amount of suffering involved and not come off as one sided, but theres very little color commentary involved.

Also give a couple of parts a watch before you make a judgement cause it takes a while for him to jump about to different aspects of the conflict, and it takes a while to get the basic TV exposition stuff out the way.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 18, 2010, 12:02:32 PM
I watched the whole thing, both parts.  I actually thought he did a pretty good job and there were only two instances where I wasn't gripping my chair with interest.  I thought the UN part was retarded, and I wanted to kick that UN fag's ass for being a bitch, but that wasn't really Kemp's fault.  He did a surprisingly good job.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 18, 2010, 12:41:11 PM
I'll get to my criticisms now one by one because I have better things to do then sit and critique a video.

First, a picture is painted of pre-wall Gaza being economically rich and well off with a quality of life equal to that of Israel's.  This is far from the case.  When I went to Gaza in '99 before the wall was built it was a shithole.  Just as bad as most of urban Egypt if not a lot worse.  And that was when many Palestinians were employed by Israelis.  It was also during a relatively quiet period with little terrorism.  But I do remember driving through Gaza city in a piece of shit rental Kia 2-door junker car with my red haired mother and my grandparents and getting the finger from random people on the street for no reason.  WTF did I do to these people to deserve the finger?  These poor assholes were living a shitty lifestyle for the same reason IMO that poor black people on welfare in the inner city live shitty lifestyles.  They've been on Israeli welfare their entire lives and have been brainwashed since being little children that all Jews are evil and the reason they have a shitty life, even though the Jews were the ones giving them the welfare and the electricity and jobs to the ones who actually worked for a living.  Except for some of the bombed out structures, Gaza looked pretty much the same as it did in that video. 

What I did notice was that some of these folks were industrious, and you could tell because they dressed nicely and were friendly, kind of like the guy who said that Hamas was bringing the attacks on itself, and that they were the reason his "industrial park" was shut down.  He was well dressed and clearly didn't hate all Jews and white people and appeared to be industrious.  And there are a few of those folks in the inner city welfare ghettos as well, just not many.  I really don't have a solution besides having Hamas listen to this guy and do what he suggested: Stop launching random rocket attacks at Israel.  Stop blaming the Jews and white people for their problems.

I do remember that the West Bank had more of his type there, and today they seem to be following his suggestions and as illustrated in the Israel half of the show are much better off for it.  War sucks.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: fatcat on January 18, 2010, 04:15:26 PM
I'll get to my criticisms now one by one because I have better things to do then sit and critique a video.

First, a picture is painted of pre-wall Gaza being economically rich and well off with a quality of life equal to that of Israel's. 

Where did you get that from? The only thing he really says about it is that it was better before Hamas got in, and prices were lower before the blockade. Don't remember him ever comparing it to being like Israel.

Quote
But I do remember driving through Gaza city in a piece of shit rental Kia 2-door junker car with my red haired mother and my grandparents and getting the finger from random people on the street for no reason.  WTF did I do to these people to deserve the finger? 

oh the humanty!

Quote
These poor assholes were living a shitty lifestyle for the same reason IMO that poor black people on welfare in the inner city live shitty lifestyles.  They've been on Israeli welfare their entire lives and have been brainwashed since being little children that all Jews are evil and the reason they have a shitty life, even though the Jews were the ones giving them the welfare and the electricity and jobs to the ones who actually worked for a living. 

1. Break legs.
2. Hand out crutches.

??????

Did you listen to the guy who say he used to work in Israel before the blockade, and that he doesn't hate Israelis just the Israeli government. The guy who got his house destroyed? How the fuck is that an unreasonable position? Wait, let me guess he's just a tiny minority and most Gazans are just mindless jew hating welfare lovers.

You know whats ironic, you generalizing about all Gazans being brainwashed and thinking all jews are evil

Quote
I really don't have a solution besides having Hamas listen to this guy and do what he suggested: Stop launching random rocket attacks at Israel.  Stop blaming the Jews and white people for their problems.


100,000 out of 125,000 Gazans who used to work in Israel now don't since the blockade began. Though it was pure benevolence for Israelis to even give jobs in the first place, so I guess thats okay.

Who gives a fuck about Israeli businesses who lost their workers, they'll probably be better off without them.

I'm guessing you're in favour of bombing trade tunnels and building anti tunnel walls. You think they're going to less welfare dependent if all black market trade actually got shut down?

The 2/3rds of products on the market are now black market goods. Around 20-50 million dollars of trade per month goes through the tunnels.

Before the blockade a bag of cement went for 20 shekels, then it went to 180 when it first started being smuggled, now it goes for 60-90.

There's been $2,000,000,000 of damage in the 2009 war.

How the fuck do you expect people to rebuild their houses? That's not Hamas who've done that, its Israel restricting trade, for Hamas and innocent businessmen alike.

Hamas are responsible for the people they kill and the houses they destroy, and Israel is responsible for the people they kill and the houses they destroy and the blockade.

You think Hamas have any trouble getting cement or weapons? They're making tax revenue from smuggling, so what the fuck is it actually achieving except stopping people from getting work and raising the prices of things.

How exactly is it moral to use violence restrict peaceful businessman from voluntarily trading, for the actions of other people?
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 18, 2010, 05:28:53 PM
Oh jeez, I expected you to go flame me for giving my personal experience.  Of course it's just my fault for being Jewish.  Nothing to do with Gaza being a shithole controlled by a terrorist organization that uses children to do hazardous work and as suicide bombers.  Yeah, it's all the fault of the Jews that these people brainwash their children to sacrifice their lives to kill a few "Jewish Pigs".  Did you even watch the Gaza video?
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: The ghost of a ghost of a ghost on January 18, 2010, 10:32:34 PM
Oh jeez, I expected you to go flame me for giving my personal experience.  Of course it's just my fault for being Jewish.  Nothing to do with Gaza being a shithole controlled by a terrorist organization that uses children to do hazardous work and as suicide bombers.  Yeah, it's all the fault of the Jews that these people brainwash their children to sacrifice their lives to kill a few "Jewish Pigs".  Did you even watch the Gaza video?

What are their motives?  Why do they brainwash children to sacrifice their lives.

Do they hate em for their freedumb.....i mean religion. What is it? 
could it be the apartheid?  Oh no, they hate em for being jews.  I get it.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on January 19, 2010, 01:51:49 AM
Oh jeez, I expected you to go flame me for giving my personal experience.  Of course it's just my fault for being Jewish.  Nothing to do with Gaza being a shithole controlled by a terrorist organization that uses children to do hazardous work and as suicide bombers.  Yeah, it's all the fault of the Jews that these people brainwash their children to sacrifice their lives to kill a few "Jewish Pigs".  Did you even watch the Gaza video?

What are their motives?  Why do they brainwash children to sacrifice their lives.

Do they hate em for their freedumb.....i mean religion. What is it? 
could it be the apartheid?  Oh no, they hate em for being jews.  I get it.
Because they are religious nuts who are A) out of their minds and B) being controlled by terrorist states like Syria and Iran

And there is no apartheid.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: fatcat on January 19, 2010, 10:57:02 AM
Of course it's just my fault for being Jewish.

Where did I say that? nowhere.

You just can't handle a reasoned debate so you have to fall back on the lazy "YOU JUST HATE JEWS!" card.

Because they are religious nuts who are A) out of their minds and B) being controlled by terrorist states like Syria and Iran

.............

Why is it bad for Gazans to think all Israelis are evil, but its not bad for Israelis to think all Gazans are "out of their minds" terrorists?

You're exactly like the Gazans who say all Jews are evil.


Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 22, 2010, 12:59:05 AM
I'm sorry to take this thread into an alternate direction, but I've finished the Ross Kemp Gangs  documentaries, and I figured this would be a good place to say something about it. 

I just can't believe the balls on this guy.  He does seem to lean more towards the pro-state side of everything, but I think tries to be fair about it.  The world is a fucked up place, and he's seen a lot of fucked up shit.  The worse the places, the less government structure, every single time.  Huge disparities of poverty versus a small enclave of wealthy, like Haiti for example.  It pretty much reflects my beliefs that a total absence of structure is a bad thing. 

Anyway...  In the last episode of Gangs, he goes to Kenya and tries to get involved with a tribal gang known as The Mongiki, who are known to be extremely violent, quick to riot, and basically badass crazy Kenyans who'll cut your head off. 

They have an incident which sends them into Riot Mode, one of their leaders was killed by the Kenyan Secret Police, along with two other people.  Cars get burned, bad shit happens.  He and his film crew see these fuckers coming down the road, and run for the trucks, to GTFO before they get killed.  Surprisingly Ross Kemp turns around and tries to chat with the crowd, which turns out to be successful, and they go on their way.  I've seen him do some crazy shit, but this was just completely insane.  The man is fearless. 

Here they come, the crew runs to the safety of their vehicles...
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7902/mong1j.jpg)

Kemp gets the bright idea to try and talk to them, and gets back out of the car as they were about to haul ass the fuck out of there...
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3136/mong6.jpg)

'Ello mates, you seem a bit disgruntled.  Lets 'ave a chat!
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3352/mong2.jpg)

The crowd decides not to kill Kemp, and shows him their sign and axe handles.
(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/3/mong3.jpg)

The polite discussion of grievances.
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1804/mong5.jpg)

Right-o, carry on.  And away they go to torch things and chuck rocks at the cops. 
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2613/mong4.jpg)












 



Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on January 22, 2010, 04:21:19 AM
Does he calculate how much money each side has stolen from the American tax-victims?

It's not often that you'd get to see a score of trillions to nil...  :x


[...]  The worse the places, the less government structure, every single time.  [...]

Epic definitionof"government"fail.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 22, 2010, 06:19:46 AM
Does he calculate how much money each side has stolen from the American tax-victims?

It's not often that you'd get to see a score of trillions to nil...  :x


[...]  The worse the places, the less government structure, every single time.  [...]

Epic definitionof"government"fail.


Watch, you're teh smart.  Decide for yourself.  Thats what documentaries are for.  

No, he doesn't calculate all sorts of ALEXLIBMAN bullshit.  He steps into places with his human flesh like a man, and experiences it first hand.  Something you or I will never do.  

I admit, I'm probably too much overexposed to the shit he did.  But all things considered,, he placed himself rapidly into a whole shit-pile of places in like four years.  It is not an inconsiderable feat by any means.  I have not run across anyone of similar caliber, regardless of the fact he might have had some nice hotel rooms along the way.  

You should never be so quick to make your infinitesimally meager perspectives, when you can dismiss a 40 minute clip like who cares, when it took the fucking guy three weeks sticking his face into some really dangerous shit, in places where they would have probably thrown his decapitated torso into a ditch- and you'd be like "yawn, asshole shoudn't go into dangerous places" and flick off it in a matter of seconds.  

These are actually the same people who you'll say "If it mattered people would investigate it!"  

Do you see the disparity with waving your hand at journalists or shall I continue?

  

Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on January 22, 2010, 12:43:32 PM
[...]  Something you or I will never do.  [...]

Speak for yourself.  Growing up on the mean streets of Moscow with tanks on the streets while USSR was collapsing under everyone's feet isn't exactly a third world slum gang, but it's close enough, and a New Jersey public school is hardly that much better.  And my involvement in the Free State Project is not a beer-filled picnic like it is for some people.  And the issue of Israel has been a very divisive one for my family.  I put myself on the front lines of many free speech and tax resistance issues, and it will surprise no one if jackbooted thugs break through my door before I finish this sentence and drag me off to face decades in prison.

And you don't know what's been happening off-camera on that show either.  Judging by how all other "reality shows" are staged, I wouldn't be surprised if those dangerous gang members are negotiated with and bribed in advance.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 22, 2010, 05:10:51 PM
Your self-perceptions reek of soviet heroism.  I know little Alexi was taken care of pretty well. 

Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on January 22, 2010, 05:40:57 PM
Why would you presume that?

And...

More Zionist than Bolshevik, but I don't give a fuck
Whose ideas I am borrowing, as long as they don't suck!


[...]
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: Bill Brasky on January 23, 2010, 02:23:12 AM
Why would you presume that?


Because I know you'd have to be pretty well off as a Soviet to GTFO during the collapse of the USSR, meaning you probably didn't reside in a little Muscovite dorm, you more than likely had a dacha.  Because I know Russian immigrants who dumped a computer into the lap of a 9 year old child weren't exactly hurting. 

I wasn't an infant in the early 90's.  I know enough about Russia, Jersey, the American economy and you to form my opinions.  I know enough about the responsibilities of parenthood to understand what is a necessity and what is a luxury to be showered upon an adolescent. 

I don't pretend to have anything perfectly pegged, but I'm not a fuckin' idiot by any means. 
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: AL the Inconspicuous on January 23, 2010, 01:44:04 PM
My family was FUBAR.  One of those "they really should have divorced but they stayed together" situations.  Dacha?  C'mon, I spent my summers in them Pioneer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneer_camp) camps, and I spent the rest of the year mostly cutting school and hanging out on the Moscow streets.  Even ran away from home a few times.  I was a late child (at least by Russian standards) and an only child.  After coming to America my parents were on the dole for the rest of their lives.  My mother had a series of heart attacks and then a heart transplant when I was 16, and my father had a lot of health problems too.

I didn't get my first computer (a used 386) until I was like 13.5 (three years after coming to America), didn't get my parents to pay for Internet access until a year later.
Title: Re: Fascinating Documentary : Gaza and Israel
Post by: fatcat on January 23, 2010, 03:56:27 PM
I'm consistently surprised  by Libmans ability to make every thread about himself.