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Terror Australis

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Extreme libertarian...
« on: July 16, 2009, 01:32:42 AM »

Someone used this term on another forum when I was explaining voluntaryism.It made me laugh as I have never heard it used before... do I want to be extremely free?Yes I do....

There exists liberty...or not.....

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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2009, 01:55:09 AM »

sounds chaotic
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Terror Australis

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2009, 02:10:31 AM »

sounds chaotic

The universe is chaotic....
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markuzick

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2009, 09:27:23 AM »

sounds chaotic

The universe is chaotic....

The universe is surprisingly orderly. After all, it's governed by universal laws.

Quote
    * I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!
          o Acceptance Speech as the 1964 Republican Presidential candidate. Variants and derivatives of this that are often quoted include:
            Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue.
            Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
            Moderation in the protection of liberty is no virtue; extremism in the defense of freedom is no vice.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

BobRobertson

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2009, 01:57:08 PM »

The universe is chaotic....

The universe is what it is. We may try to impose our own opinions of order upon it, but its nature is not changed by our opinions.

We can only continue the quest to discover what already is. And as with most quests, it is the quest itself which is important, the attainment of the goal may very well turn out to be irrelevant.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Kevin Freeheart

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 04:25:09 PM »

I would actually say the "Extreme Libertarians" are the minarchists. There's nothing extreme in my eyes about leaving your neighbor alone. There IS something extreme about advocating mass theft against your neighbors.
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BonerJoe

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 06:40:44 PM »

There IS something extreme about advocating mass theft against your neighbors.

So you'd rather have what we have now instead of minarchy?
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BobRobertson

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 07:43:36 PM »

There IS something extreme about advocating mass theft against your neighbors.
So you'd rather have what we have now instead of minarchy?

Non sequiter.

He said A => B. He said nothing about B => C.

Saying that having a parasitic class sucks in no way implies that having a bigger parasitic class sucks less.

Advocating mass theft against your neighbors is an attribute of having rulership. The parasitic class exists by taking from the productive class. There truly are only two classes, taxpayers and taxeaters.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

BonerJoe

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2009, 07:44:03 PM »

There IS something extreme about advocating mass theft against your neighbors.
So you'd rather have what we have now instead of minarchy?

Non sequiter.

He said A => B. He said nothing about B => C.

Saying that having a parasitic class sucks in no way implies that having a bigger parasitic class sucks less.

Advocating mass theft against your neighbors is an attribute of having rulership. The parasitic class exists by taking from the productive class. There truly are only two classes, taxpayers and taxeaters.

So, you're saying all or nothing?
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Terror Australis

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2009, 10:16:07 PM »

Sadly I think the best we can hope for is to slow things down.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2009, 11:52:03 PM »

“If you want government to intervene domestically, you’re a liberal. If you want government to intervene overseas, you’re a conservative. If you want government to intervene everywhere, you’re a moderate. If you don’t want government to intervene anywhere, you’re an extremist.” — Joseph Sobran
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Terror Australis

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2009, 12:21:57 AM »

“If you want government to intervene domestically, you’re a liberal. If you want government to intervene overseas, you’re a conservative. If you want government to intervene everywhere, you’re a moderate. If you don’t want government to intervene anywhere, you’re an extremist.” — Joseph Sobran

I must be an extremist then.Libertarianism has nothing to do with it ....
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markuzick

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2009, 01:51:34 AM »

sounds chaotic

The universe is chaotic....

The universe is surprisingly orderly. After all, it's governed by universal laws.

Some elaboration:

To the primitive mind the universe seemed inexplicably chaotic. To explain this Man invented capricious spirits, demons and gods. This was a fiat universe, where reality was subject to the decree of the deities that were imagined to exist.

As early philosophy and science began to develop, men began to discover underlying principles to how the world worked, or the beginnings of universal law. Theology, too, began to evolve along with this new perspective. Now the gods were replaced with one God and his universal law( God's Law) to which even God, claims of his omnipotence to the contrary, was subject. God became the anthropomorphization of universal law. Now the world as seen by both the scientist and the theist is one of rich infinitely complex beauty and order, that is governed by the underlying principles of universal law.

So Man's perception of the universe evolved from that of an anarchic chaos subject to the caprice of deities, to the modern view of the universe as ordered complexity through the government of immutable universal law.

Government versus anarchy is not merely a political issue, but, more broadly, it is an ontological one.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Libertarianssuck

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2009, 01:56:07 AM »

Awesome post
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BobRobertson

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Re: Extreme libertarian...
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2009, 03:19:46 PM »

So, you're saying all or nothing?

Do you like being "a little bit" enslaved, or would you rather not be enslaved at all?

If it is only a choice between a lot enslaved or a little enslaved, I'll take the little. But that does not mean I prefer slavery to freedom.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820
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