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Diogenes The Cynic

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Ends Justifying Means
« on: May 16, 2012, 01:09:57 AM »

I have a problem that I can't come up with an answer to.

In California, we have a lot of illegal immigrants here. That's cool and all, and were supposed to believe in open borders, right?

Well, they tend to have a lot of children, and those (now legal) children tend to vote for right leaning Democrats. So, California has an ass-backwards political culture where pot isn't quite legal yet, taxes are high, social services are up in your grill. Its the worst of every world liberty-wise.

Now, deport those immigrants, and a considerable number of their children will have no choice but to follow them. You wont have another generation of more taxes, more regulation, etc. Well, the problem with this is that you will create a culture of greater freedom by violating other peoples freedom. Ends don't justify means, but damnit, I want to live in a state with pot, and guns, and I can't do that now.

What thinks you?
I am looking for an honest man. -Diogenes The Cynic

Dude, I thought you were a spambot for like a week. You posted like a spambot. You failed the Turing test.

                                -Dennis Goddard

Bill Brasky

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Re: Ends Justifying Means
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 02:54:31 AM »

I think the deportation of immigrants is a mistake.  I think all those people should be given amnesty, because thats the basis of our American melting-pot philosophy.

Fifty years ago, people with various philosophies were granted entry, maybe your parents included..  and they aren't from a culture that our basic tenets were derived from.

It takes several generations for everything to mush together, people dissipate into other geographic regions, and eventually, the societal consciousness benefits from a wide variety of philosophies.

You have to consider the Latino mindset, which in reality, is not very different from your own.  It involves culture, and a little bit of a "tribe" mentality.  No offense. 

I think tribal mentality is kinda important to build upon, in instills values and community activities.  It creates structure. 

Eventually, those people spread out and assimilate into the societal paradigm, and their ethnicity and ethos becomes a little watered-down, and influences a social shift. 

Personally, I believe we've benefited greatly from European influences, Asian influences, African influences.  I like little pieces of all that shit.  I like little pieces of Jewish culture.  And I like pieces of Latino culture.

Saying any of those pieces don't fit is absurd, this is America, dude.  It may seem a little overwhelming right now, as Latino culture is sky-rocketing, but its not much different than Black culture in the 50's and 60's. 

The plain truth is, depending on your specific location, Latino culture is definitely taking broad leaps into the American consciousness.  And I'm willing to agree, those fuckers can definitely be passionate. 

But making arguments about throwing them out is abhorrent.  No different than throwing out the Jews.

They just need time to thrive and assimilate into the American culture, as I already mentioned.  Their philosophies are often communal, and can lean to the "left", which isn't surprising when their backgrounds are village-like considering child-rearing and tribal influence, war, drugs, poverty, rebellion, slavery, shifting politics, and all that, over the last century. 

By the way, Democrats are left-leaning.  Theres really no such thing as a right-leaning Democrat, as you described it.  The problem you describe is actual democracy.  There are hard-core right-wingers in California, and lots of 'em.  Look at the Wiki of California, county by county.  There are Republican counties that vote by large margins to outlaw civil liberties, like gay marriage and legal pot.  Ronald Reagan became President out of California, and he was pretty hard-core "right". 

California is not nearly as liberal as people believe.  They just have taxes out the ass, because its a HUGE state, and terribly mismanaged.

Heres the problem with California..  It has a massive population in about five major metropolitan areas.  LA, Sacremento, SF, San Diego, and a few others.  But it's bigger than most countries.  Those people have to pay for incredible amounts of infrastructure.  They should've cut off the top-half of Cali many years ago, and made it a separate state. 

The day before Pearl Harbor, in 1941, Northern California was gonna secede.  Then Pearl Harbor happened, and the country threw all that shit aside, and it never happened.

Now, California is strapped with its northern half, millions of miles of roads and bridges, and its a burden to the Southern half of Cali.

Which, by the way, has nothing to do with Mexicans.



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Re: Ends Justifying Means
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 07:45:29 PM »

I don't live in Ca but I imagine illegals voting to the left is (if at all) only a small part of the problem.

Rich, uptight, 2nd generation hippies, hollywood types and such are probably tend to vote more towards a soak the rich philosophy than migrant workers. I doubt much of the impoverished 2nd gen migrant families really even participate but I could be horribly mistaken.

Pot laws and the rest of the drug war, from my perspective seem IMPOSED. As in, even if a county voted to regulate weed, the feds (as they did in oakland in early april this year) the feds would be knocking on the door instantly. Why? Because Cali, like every other state, sold off it's sovereignty and now DC calls the shots.

Besides, even if they consistently voted Republican, I doubt the landscape would look much different. It's probably systemic and not a question of dirt poor migrants.

Totally agree with Svengali eloquent synopsis.
"No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck." Frederick Douglass - Speech at Civil Rights Mass Meeting, Washington, D.C.
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