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Author Topic: Unofficial History of Drama in the Free State  (Read 1022620 times)

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dalebert

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4245 on: April 14, 2011, 10:18:13 PM »

I would hope that you would not want to hang out with homo-killing sympathizers.

First "nigger-lynchers" and now "homo-killing sympathizers"?  Isn't that a ridiculous comparison?  Those are clear cases of someone ready and willing to do harm versus someone who has screwed up notions about when consent is possible.  You're comparing an overtly violent criminal to a sick person.

Quote
There is also hard evidence that individuals in Keene are not willing to denounce that idea and are willing to denounce the act of speaking about specific individuals who do.

I denounce the idea right now.  But if you're going to label someone as a bad person for believing that, how do you feel about Ian who has publicly expressed that he believes fairly young people could be capable of consent using the example of himself at 11?  Obviously he's still my friend.  I thought he was still your friend.

So there are two separate issues here-- a pretty fringe belief that very young people are capable of consent (political views) and the other thing is a bizarre attraction to children (psychology/personality/whatever).  I hope you agree by now that you can have an attraction and choose never to act on it, and such a person wouldn't be a bad person just for inclinations that they don't act on.  And I hope you don't think Ian is a bad person for having a pretty fringe political/moral belief that the fairly young may be capable of consent.  This guy is both, which certainly has a huge creepy factor, but that still doesn't mean he's likely to act on it.  I already went into that.

If I sincerely felt that he was likely to act on it, I would definitely feel some kind of action to protect children is called for, possibly up to and including a big public outing even if it meant drawing the wrath of an injust government.  I guess even then I wouldn't see him as bad person comparable to someone who actually sets out to harm someone like the analogies you made.  I would see someone like that as having a sickness and deluded beliefs that combine to make him dangerous.



But all my information is from gossip.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 10:20:40 PM by Dalebert »
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Amazing Richard

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4246 on: April 14, 2011, 10:24:40 PM »

Dale just keeps digging a deeper hole.

MODS! MODS!! INAPPROPRIATE FOR THIS THREAD!

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhh ehehehehehehehehe, he said *hole*.

Who are you? Is that you Brigit?
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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4247 on: April 14, 2011, 10:25:58 PM »

Dale just keeps digging a deeper hole.

MODS! MODS!! INAPPROPRIATE FOR THIS THREAD!

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhh ehehehehehehehehe, he said *hole*.

Who are you? Is that you Brigit?

No, it's your mother. Dinner's done, dear, time to eat.
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Amazing Richard

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4248 on: April 14, 2011, 10:34:45 PM »

Dale just keeps digging a deeper hole.

MODS! MODS!! INAPPROPRIATE FOR THIS THREAD!

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhh ehehehehehehehehe, he said *hole*.

Who are you? Is that you Brigit?

No, it's your mother. Dinner's done, dear, time to eat.

But, I'm not hungry.
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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4249 on: April 14, 2011, 10:35:47 PM »

Dale just keeps digging a deeper hole.

MODS! MODS!! INAPPROPRIATE FOR THIS THREAD!

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhh ehehehehehehehehe, he said *hole*.

Who are you? Is that you Brigit?

No, it's your mother. Dinner's done, dear, time to eat.

But, I'm not hungry.

Okay, I'll put it in the fridge ready to be reheated in the oven. :)
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4250 on: April 14, 2011, 11:21:01 PM »

After skimming the misinformation in this thread, I thought some clarification was in order, since no one here was as close to the situation as was I.  Here's the rundown:

Nik and Lyndsey moved in to NH in December and moved out to some farm house in a nearby town.  Summer moved in a couple months later.  They had all been talking together for a while online prior to this.  After they had lived together for about ten days, a detailed conversation happened between Nik and Summer regarding raising children and exploration of sexuality on the child's part and how parents should handle that.  The story that John described as playing with his cock was not sexual nor playing - it was a 2-year-old touching his dad's penis in the shower and saying "pee pee".  That is all.  Nik's point in relating the story was that he didn't feel that a parent should react negatively to that and pull away and say no, for instance.  It's an entirely innocent and natural thing for a child to do.  He was not fucking his son or touching his son or having his son masturbate him, or doing anything sexual.

This conversation led Summer to inquire with Nik about how he felt about kids and sex.  He admitted he is attracted to pre-pubescant children at approximately age 8.  She then moved out of their home and into JJ's home, which he graciously offered her and assisted her with the move.  She told Nik that she would not go to CPS.

She also informed the other liberty families in the area via email, facebook message, and phone calls about the predilection that Nik has.  I think this was the right thing to do.

Then, she did wrong and posted the information publicly on facebook, exposing them to death threats and the threat of CPS.

Nik and Lyndsey wanted to meet with Summer at the KAC at about 2 in the morning as they were scared she was going to CPS and they wanted assurance she would not.  JJ, myself, Jason, and Hunter attended to witness.  Summer is a devotee of Wes Bertrand and she wanted to have Wes talk to Nik and Lyndsey.  (I guess she thought that they would change their opinions, or something.)  So we get Wes on Skype and a lengthy conversation ensues, where right out the gate Wes agrees with JJ and I that it was wrong for Summer to post this info to facebook.  Summer finally agrees to remove the post.  Wes discusses the issue of children and sexuality with the parties and after what may have been a two hour conversation, it becomes clear that not much is going to be accomplished.  Nik and Lyndsey leave NH.  

Summer and JJ and I remain and continue discussing.  Summer is convinced that Nik and Lyndsey are child molesters.  I explain to her that I saw no evidence of that, but that even if she is correct and they are, then look what she has done:

By publicly posting about them, she ran them out of a community of people who are concerned and care, and now they are hiding somewhere around people who DON'T know about Nik's predilections.  Plus Nik learned his lesson about opening up to people about this issue, so now wherever they are, NO ONE KNOWS.  Whereas, had she used discretion and only privately informed people, everyone would have known and could have adjusted their interactions with them appropriately. (Like not allowing their kids alone with him.)

It took a while, but she broke down at one point, and sent them an apology and promised she would not call CPS.  We hugged her and everyone went home.

Two days later she had reposted her note to facebook and was talking openly of how regretful she was that she did not call CPS.

She broke her agreement.  She lied.  She advocated aggression against peaceful people.

Plus, she is crazy, according to JJ's experience with her.  He wanted her out at that point.  He did not kick her out of his house; he asked her to leave.  She could have stayed the night, and she had a ride out to wherever - JJ would have provided it, but she felt the need to call the cops, because clearly that is her solution to her problems.  The cops immediately took JJ's side, because it was clear to them how crazy she is.  Shaunna will also confirm her as crazy.  Shaunna is JJ's roommate.  JJ drove her to a hotel with the police escorting the drive.

She then left town and left New Hampshire shortly thereafter.

So, I hope that helps.  This woman was ostracized not because she outed someone attracted to children, but because she turned to aggression, lied, and broke her word.  Oh, and she also talked trash about people behind their backs, sowing seeds of distrust within this community.
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John Shaw

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4251 on: April 15, 2011, 12:12:10 AM »

After skimming the misinformation in this thread,

Well...

Actually, no.

Apart from how people have received and interpreted things, pretty much everything said in this thread has been accurate, Ian. Your story lines up almost perfectly with hers, apart from interpretation.

Reread and don't skim this time and you'll see what I'm saying.

We can debate the definition of "Playing" or whatever, but it seems like Summer described all of the exact same things you just did.

Your beef appears to be that she changed her mind about how to deal with someone she thought was bad without consulting you? That was somehow a breach of contract?

Then, she did wrong and posted the information publicly on facebook, exposing them to death threats and the threat of CPS.

Yeah, this is where a disconnect happens. She didn't contact CPS, right? She didn't threaten them with death, right?

<<<Trying to get this straight.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 12:14:33 AM by John Shaw »
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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4252 on: April 15, 2011, 12:35:25 AM »

By this logic, I shouldn't inform certain people that a person is a conman for fear that the police may get wind of it and investigate? I'm sorry, but this is where the whole potential vs actual happens to meet this issue. And for me, it's possible that CPS may get involved, but only if those involved already want CPS to be so. If a random nosy neighbor calls CPS, that sorta is the problem of said nosy neighbor, but if it's between people who know CPS is more trouble than its worth and they themselves don't contact CPS, then what's the problem? Ian, seriously, you need to parse context in this matter and not a false sense of adhering to 'principle'.
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The ghost of a ghost of a ghost

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4253 on: April 15, 2011, 12:37:46 AM »

Can't we all just agree that wanting to fuck 8 year olds is bad....

Discussion over.

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4254 on: April 15, 2011, 12:44:31 AM »

Can't we all just agree that wanting to fuck 8 year olds is bad....

Discussion over.



Who is this wIAN, hmmm? :D
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Osborne

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4255 on: April 15, 2011, 12:56:00 AM »

I would hope that you would not want to hang out with homo-killing sympathizers.

First "nigger-lynchers" and now "homo-killing sympathizers"?  Isn't that a ridiculous comparison?  Those are clear cases of someone ready and willing to do harm versus someone who has screwed up notions about when consent is possible.  You're comparing an overtly violent criminal to a sick person.

Quote
There is also hard evidence that individuals in Keene are not willing to denounce that idea and are willing to denounce the act of speaking about specific individuals who do.

I denounce the idea right now.  But if you're going to label someone as a bad person for believing that, how do you feel about Ian who has publicly expressed that he believes fairly young people could be capable of consent using the example of himself at 11?  Obviously he's still my friend.  I thought he was still your friend.

So there are two separate issues here-- a pretty fringe belief that very young people are capable of consent (political views) and the other thing is a bizarre attraction to children (psychology/personality/whatever).  I hope you agree by now that you can have an attraction and choose never to act on it, and such a person wouldn't be a bad person just for inclinations that they don't act on.  And I hope you don't think Ian is a bad person for having a pretty fringe political/moral belief that the fairly young may be capable of consent.  This guy is both, which certainly has a huge creepy factor, but that still doesn't mean he's likely to act on it.  I already went into that.

If I sincerely felt that he was likely to act on it, I would definitely feel some kind of action to protect children is called for, possibly up to and including a big public outing even if it meant drawing the wrath of an injust government.  I guess even then I wouldn't see him as bad person comparable to someone who actually sets out to harm someone like the analogies you made.  I would see someone like that as having a sickness and deluded beliefs that combine to make him dangerous.



But all my information is from gossip.

And once again, the issue has nothing to do with the personal preferences we are born with or have inflicted upon us through experience. I don't care whether you masturbate to children or kidnapped amputees. The issue is whether you espouse the behavior as BEING GOOD AND MORAL TO ENGAGE IN.
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Andy

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4256 on: April 15, 2011, 01:37:27 AM »

I've got no idea what the situation is in NH, but in some places there's a pretty good chance you'd get yourself in major trouble for not outing someone in that situation. I'd certainly get legal advice in that situation. And I sure wouldn't be risking myself for them.

Turd Ferguson

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4257 on: April 15, 2011, 01:54:47 AM »

Well, at the very MAXIMUM, you could argue that someone is pretty stupid and/or naive for thinking they could talk about something of that nature in a public forum on the internet and not have it find its way to the douches in govt. I mean come on, think a little.
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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4258 on: April 15, 2011, 08:47:41 AM »

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dalebert

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Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4259 on: April 15, 2011, 12:15:47 PM »

And once again, the issue has nothing to do with the personal preferences we are born with or have inflicted upon us through experience. I don't care whether you masturbate to children or kidnapped amputees. The issue is whether you espouse the behavior as BEING GOOD AND MORAL TO ENGAGE IN.

Well my point is it's not that black and white.  If someone just says "8 year-old can consent" then yeah, I would agree.  That's fucked up.  I didn't hear what he said exactly or in context.

But consider this.  Ian said on the radio that he gave BJs for video games when he was around 11, though this was a teen and not quite an adult.  He says he felt he was able to consent to that act at that time.  My eyes almost popped out of my head.  Or rather, my ears almost... whatever.  That sounds really young to me.  Had I been an adult at that time who knew about this, I'd want it investigated, no doubt.  But after thinking about it for a long time, who gets to decide that question better than adult Ian in retrospect?  You never answered me about how you feel about Ian.  Is he still your friend?

On the other hand, I realized beyond a doubt that I was gay at 13, had gone through puberty, was horny as three bulls combined and was fantasizing about older men a LOT (I'm fairly confident that in the first few years after puberty, if you don't ejaculate at least 3 times a day, preferably more, your testicles will explode), and lonely like I can't even begin to describe as a closeted teen in the early 80s (things were differnt... k? It SUCKED.)  I didn't know shit about AIDS.  I didn't know shit about relationships.  I was a bundle of ignorance and insecurities that made for a potential ticking time bomb of life-long fucked-upedness.  Had an unscrupulous older man gotten the right opportunity, I think he could fucked me up in countless ways-- emotionally-- he could have fucked me a few times and left me and I prolly would have been devastated and who knows what lingering relationship and trust issues I'd have for  years, also physically with STDs, easily leading to a very early death at that time.  By the time I was 16 (legal age of consent in NH), I hadn't changed all that much.  Had I been female, there'd be possible unwanted pregnancy.

By the time I was about 19, I now feel in retrospect that I finally had my head screwed on reasonably tight.  I was coming out, dating, getting educated about AIDS and other STDs and how to protect myself.  I was still kinda fucked up at 18 and I'm not sure I would have felt fully able to consent properly even then, but I understand we have to say "sink or swim" at some point barring mental illness or some such.  My personal experience makes me want to err heavily on the side of protecting children and presuming they are unable to consent.  It's hard for me to picture an adult wanting to have sex with a really young person (not just children but really young teens) who doesn't have really selfish motives and little regard for the effect it will have on the child, though he may talk himself into believing otherwise.  I hope we will one day live in a world where we have socially evolved to where it is commonplace for someone to have matured and be a real adult by the time they're a biological adult, but I don't feel that we are anywhere near that point.  We still live in a culture that perpetuates childhood and purposefully postpones the knowledge and maturity required to properly consent.

In short, I don't think it's at all black and white.
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