Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  Unofficial History of Drama in the Free State
Pages: 1 ... 278 279 [280] 281 282 ... 337   Go Down

Author Topic: Unofficial History of Drama in the Free State  (Read 1312765 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

John Shaw

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17244
    • View Profile
    • Think Twice Productions
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4185 on: April 13, 2011, 03:46:18 PM »

Lemme restate all of that shit with a scenario to think over -

Let's say we live in a totally free society.

All the exact same shit happens with the exact same people.

She calls a private security company to get her out of the house or whatever rather than the police, an action that frankly has no net effect in either universe to the specific subject at hand.

She just as publicly says all the exact same things using the same means to ostracize these people. (Posting a rant on Facebook)

Now, there is no government.

Was what she did morally acceptable? Telling the world about this dude's views, that he opened his very own mouth and spoke about knowing that it could be repeated?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 03:48:18 PM by John Shaw »
Logged
"btw its not a claim. Its documented fact."

blackie

  • Guest
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4186 on: April 13, 2011, 03:51:55 PM »

Summer stood in the middle of the proverbial town square, pointed her finger and cried "Witch!" in the modern equivalent of old Salem, MA.
I think that would be ok if the person Summer was pointing to is actually a witch.
Logged

John Shaw

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17244
    • View Profile
    • Think Twice Productions
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4187 on: April 13, 2011, 03:53:29 PM »

And again, for the record - I am not talking about what sort of actions I am willing to take.

If that conversation had happened with me it would have been very short.

"You touch my fucking kid I tie you to a tree with "Kid fucker" carved into your forehead. Are we clear? If you have a problem with that go tell everyone your story and see who gets ostracized. I'm willing to take the chance."

Bah. Still loves ya Dale.
Logged
"btw its not a claim. Its documented fact."

blackie

  • Guest
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4188 on: April 13, 2011, 04:01:58 PM »

When Ian moved to NH and discovered a grow op in his house, was he wrong to post picture and talk about it on his national syndicated radio show?

I mean, the state does have a war on drugs and all.
Logged

dalebert

  • Blasphemor
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6622
    • View Profile
    • Flaming Freedom
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4189 on: April 13, 2011, 04:04:05 PM »

... Posting on your facebook page qualifies as a "Huge public outing"?

On this subject?  Of course!  Are you aware that I just spent almost an entire FTL episode talking about the dangers to your privacy when you use FB?

Quote
In the context of the entire conversation was centered on the fact that the dude wants to fuck children, it certainly does, Dale. That was what they were talking about and he volunteered that information at that time.

I heard it told from someone who heard it firsthand and that's not how I heard it.  You're describing it in a purposefully inflammatory way.

Quote
1. Who is "We"?

How about anyone living under the watchful eye of the U.S. government, whether you wish to be an active participant or not?

Quote
2. In a free society ostracism requires an open accusation, publicly.

I'm not having a beef with ostracism when it's appropriate.  In this case, I call it a witch hunt, and I would be more inclined to ostracize someone for starting a witch hunt when it's not called for than I would to ostracize someone for honestly expressing extremely controversial views.  I'm not saying I would ostracize Summer, probably wouldn't actually, but I certainly won't publicly defend her actions.

Quote
So, are you suggesting that no one ostracize anyone for behavior that overlaps with the state's monopolies? That any behavior, no matter how bad, shouldn't be properly ostracized because the state might see it and get involved?

I'm saying that if you're ostracizing anyone, it should be people who start witch hunts.  She knows she lives in an environment where starting a witch hunt takes about as much as starting a fire in a building that's been soaked with kerosene.  She tossed the match knowing what would happen.  Anyone who's paying attention knows what it will do and it takes feigned ignorance to claim otherwise.

Quote
This is not about me proving to the world that I'm a good guy, and your suggestion that I am so emotionally immature that I require my ego to be stroked by being told that I am the good guy is... whatever.

I'm saying that, like many people, you are caught up in the culture that tries to force you to pick sides-- be in the witch hunt or be a witch.  I don't know how else to interpret how you're handling this.  You know that what I've said about the inflammatory nature of these sorts of public accusations is true.  The accusation alone will stand as a conviction for all practical purposes.  I know you're not stupid.

Quote
Also telling me that I am participating in a witch hunt is as insulting as all fuck.

You're valiantly coming to the defense of a witch hunter.  I don't mean to be insulting, I certainly don't mean it as an attack, but I don't know what else to call it.

I don't have a police report.  I'd made it clear many times and many ways that that's not the point in a witch hunt environment so it's a straw-man.  I think the proof would be in the pudding in terms of the government investigative shit storm that would have followed if they'd not disappeared and so I can't blame them for wanting to leave.

dalebert

  • Blasphemor
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6622
    • View Profile
    • Flaming Freedom
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4190 on: April 13, 2011, 04:09:32 PM »

I think that would be ok if the person Summer was pointing to is actually a witch.

Exactly the point-- that's far from clear.  And the point is a huge public discussion is not going to serve justice on an inflammatory subject like this.  It's obviously going to result in a "witch hunt".

John Shaw

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17244
    • View Profile
    • Think Twice Productions
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4191 on: April 13, 2011, 04:14:47 PM »

I'm not having a beef with ostracism when it's appropriate.  In this case, I call it a witch hunt, and I would be more inclined to ostracize someone for starting a witch hunt when it's not called for than I would to ostracize someone for honestly expressing extremely controversial views.  I'm not saying I would ostracize Summer, probably wouldn't actually, but I certainly won't publicly defend her actions.

Alright, here is the core of the issue.

I have said more than three times in this thread that I would not do what she did. That does not qualify as defending her actions.

And Summer is being ostracized.

My issue is that she made a statement publicly, with the intent to ostracize someone. You can speculate on her motivations and whether she knowingly tried to get the government to see or not.

The fact that she deleted those posts from her FB after all of that was pointed out to her might shed some light on her motivations, Dale. How do you respond to that? Damage was already done? I dunno.

I never defended her. I questioned the validity of attacking her and I suggested (Strongly) that her actions could have been justified.

<<<Not a white knight.

As for the witch hunt thing - Sorry I got so huffy. You say you weren't attacking me, I believe it. Just, you know, do me the solid and go back a reread what you said. Was easily construed as a pretty schooling tone you were using rather than a debate between equals. Socratic even.

Also, I take issue with the term "Witch hunt" because that implies a bunch of people looking for something that isn't there. This dude is a pedophile. He admitted it in conversation. Whether he has physically touched a child sexually is irrelevant to anyone who has a child near him, and if he talks about his views to just one person and they blab it everywhere it's his own fault.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 04:20:03 PM by John Shaw »
Logged
"btw its not a claim. Its documented fact."

dalebert

  • Blasphemor
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6622
    • View Profile
    • Flaming Freedom
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4192 on: April 13, 2011, 04:20:01 PM »

Now, there is no government.

Forget government.  Let's cut to the chase.

If you know that your speech will almost certainly cause harm to people, from whatever source, and you don't know for certain that said people are guilty of doing any harm to anyone (just controversial speech), do you still feel absolved of any responsibility for that harm?  If you mention that there's a slave family hiding out in the Jones' basement and just happen to be within ear shot of some known KKK members, do you not feel any guilt?  Government is just the primary source of that harm right now.

John, we have a lot in common, morally-speaking, but we don't share the exact same motivations.  I'll state that disclaimer up front and I realize I have to appeal to you based on your own moral motivations.  I'm far less concerned with justice than I am in reducing harm to all parties.  But I think you would agree that justice is not served if innocent people are placed in harms way.

NOTE: Being written at the same time as your last post.  I think we're finding common ground and I'll try to respond but I may not get to it right now because I have to do some stuph.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 04:22:39 PM by Dalebert »
Logged

Fred

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2099
    • View Profile
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4193 on: April 13, 2011, 04:29:50 PM »

I think I got whiplash!
Logged

blackie

  • Guest
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4194 on: April 13, 2011, 04:35:50 PM »

I think that would be ok if the person Summer was pointing to is actually a witch.

Exactly the point-- that's far from clear. 
But didn't the dude admit to being a pedo?
Logged

John Shaw

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17244
    • View Profile
    • Think Twice Productions
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4195 on: April 13, 2011, 04:42:25 PM »

Forget government.  Let's cut to the chase.

C'mon now...

Dale, what is the result of that scenario, morally?

There was a very specific point I was trying to make there. If there weren't government in the mix, you would not have had a problem with her actions, would you? Ostracism is a public accusation with a call to refute it. You're declaring throughout the land that you have seen something that you consider unjust or immoral. That is what ostracism is. You are saying publicly - "I will not associate with this person because they said or did THIS."


If you know that your speech will almost certainly cause harm to people, from whatever source, and you don't know for certain that said people are guilty of doing any harm to anyone (just controversial speech), do you still feel absolved of any responsibility for that harm?  If you mention that there's a slave family hiding out in the Jones' basement and just happen to be within ear shot of some known KKK members, do you not feel any guilt?  Government is just the primary source of that harm right now.

And how will the issues of injustice be brought to light, Dale? Shit had to come out for it to be dealt with. There has to be a public accusation for there to be a market based justice system, because the public dissemination of the violation is the ultimate punishment in a free society. The bad person does a bad thing, and then the world is told. That's the most powerful thing anyone can do when there's no force being thrown around, and no, I am not in any way responsible for someone else initiating force for any reason, ever, even if it's a direct result of something I said.

I wouldn't, however, tell KKK members that there are slaves in a basement, and I said a couple posts back what I, personally would have done in this situation.


John, we have a lot in common, morally-speaking, but we don't share the exact same motivations.  I'll state that disclaimer up front and I realize I have to appeal to you based on your own moral motivations.  I'm far less concerned with justice than I am in reducing harm to all parties.  But I think you would agree that justice is not served if innocent people are placed in harms way.

Key word being innocent. Yes. That point has become moot because the people in this specific case didn't stick around to defend themselves and couldn't have been harmed at all, using assumed names. (An act I take no particular issue with.) They hauled ass PDQ. Is it right that they felt the need to leave? I honestly can't say. I'm not automatically jumping to the conclusion that just because they ran they are guilty, either, but it doesn't look great. As I understand it the offer was made to arbitrate a discussion and it was turned down by the party in question. Also sketchy.

I am interested in both reducing harm and to some degree preventing it. My means of prevention would have been personal, as I already described.

I believe we have the same motivations, Dale. I am just not as nice a guy as you are. Fuck bad people. If they are sorry and make damn sure to prove it, then cool. No more fuck them. If they prove over time to continue being bad, then WAAAAAY fuck them. I have a pretty deep well of forgiveness, but it is conditional and not as deep as yours, maybe.

NOTE: Being written at the same time as your last post.  I think we're finding common ground and I'll try to respond but I may not get to it right now because I have to do some stuph.

Cool. Maybe this post helps.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 04:44:11 PM by John Shaw »
Logged
"btw its not a claim. Its documented fact."

alaric89

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1842
    • View Profile
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4196 on: April 13, 2011, 04:46:25 PM »

What should Summer have done Dale? It would have been easiest for her to say nothing, and just make sure her own child was never near the dude.
Maybe she should have known everybody wouldn't give her the benefit of the doubt? Maybe us now, but I would have thought everyone would be on my side if I talked about this at 20 too.
If he is going to be a "openaboutit" pedo he should a. admit he shouldn't act upon it and b. not do anything to cause suspicion or set himself up for to much temptation, like a dangerous alcoholic shouldn't have a large supply of booze.
It's not fair to compair Summer and by association John to that obvious entrapment on that show. 8 is a child. 14 is (barely) debatable.

blackie

  • Guest
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4197 on: April 13, 2011, 05:15:19 PM »

So am I to believe that if the Keene liberty community found out judge Burke, or some keene cop  or statist state rep was a pedophile they would keep it a secret?

Or do you only keep it a secret when it is someone in your group?
Logged

Turd Ferguson

  • Opportunist Extraordinaire
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4085
    • View Profile
    • https://twitter.com/#!/realmikequick
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4198 on: April 13, 2011, 05:26:48 PM »

So am I to believe that if the Keene liberty community found out judge Burke, or some keene cop  or statist state rep was a pedophile they would keep it a secret?

Or do you only keep it a secret when it is someone in your group?


Logged
Some peoples idea of hell is having to mind their own business.

Fred

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2099
    • View Profile
Re: Dllama in the Free State
« Reply #4199 on: April 13, 2011, 05:31:57 PM »

she can eat popcorn (or crackers) in my bed anytime - on another planet - i'm an old married guy!
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 278 279 [280] 281 282 ... 337   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  General
| | |-+  Unofficial History of Drama in the Free State

// ]]>

Page created in 0.022 seconds with 31 queries.