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Author Topic: Don't initiate violence?  (Read 46538 times)

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alaric89

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Don't initiate violence?
« on: March 30, 2010, 04:34:40 PM »

I know the goals of liberty can not come from violence, but to be honest I don't think I could just stand there and watch some thugs taze a 7 month pregnant chick.
Am I just old fashion and wrong? Or is there a line when one can honorably start retaliating the hard way?
When can one initiate violence?
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John Shaw

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2010, 06:44:00 PM »

I know the goals of liberty can not come from violence, but to be honest I don't think I could just stand there and watch some thugs taze a 7 month pregnant chick.
Am I just old fashion and wrong? Or is there a line when one can honorably start retaliating the hard way?
When can one initiate violence?

You go first and let me know how it goes.
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davann

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2010, 06:51:41 PM »


When can one initiate violence?

Initiating is always wrong. End of story.
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alaric89

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2010, 07:21:38 PM »

Just trying to figure out when You either have to defend oneself or except death. I believe there will always be a point when you have to fight, and getting the upper hand requires initiation. I think it's when thugs are intimidating and hurting defenseless people right in front of me. Some might believe it's when the bad guys start loading innocent people on trains. Maybe some will just sit idly and let people cut off their head. I don't know maybe I'm the prick here. Like to see others discuss their own "line in the sand" and why anyway.
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John Shaw

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2010, 07:26:08 PM »

Just trying to figure out when You either have to defend oneself or except death. I believe there will always be a point when you have to fight, and getting the upper hand requires initiation. I think it's when thugs are intimidating and hurting defenseless people right in front of me. Some might believe it's when the bad guys start loading innocent people on trains. Maybe some will just sit idly and let people cut off their head. I don't know maybe I'm the prick here. Like to see others discuss their own "line in the sand" and why anyway.

You'll know my line in the sand when you cross it.

Look, you're a low post count account, and asking questions like the one you just did will do nothing but make people think you're a fed.

Old Militia Saying: "Wanna know who the fed is? He's the one trying to get you to blow something up."

Especially considering the events of the last week or so.

You're probably not a fed, I'm just saying is all.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2010, 08:01:52 PM »

In a situation of self defense or defense of an innocent, you start out on pretty even footing.

By that I mean when the cops show up you cooperate, explain, show what happened, etc.

Defending from a cop has no such equal footing. The cop is always, ALWAYS assumed to be in the right first. And every legal maneuver is on their side. The prosecutors, attorneys and judges are on their side.

Police push, pull, shove and bully people CONSTANTLY, but let a "civilian" brush accidentally against a cop and they are arrested for assault on an officer.

You do know about the guy who, in bed, shot an armed intruder that was charging into his room at 0-dark-30 in the morning?

It was a cop who never identified himself, and the poor schmuck is spending time in prison for defending himself, in his own home.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 09:02:18 AM by BobRobertson »
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

TimeLady Victorious

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2010, 10:10:46 PM »

If you're seeing a heavily pregnant woman get tasered, it's probably a good idea to try to stop it.

Of course, you will probably be tased heavily and maybe shot.
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anarchir

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2010, 11:38:14 PM »

^ THIS

you can try it at the scene of the crime, but it will be even more difficult to defend your actions at a later date.

Bet you're a fed, I mean, look at the avatar.
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alaric89

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2010, 04:18:10 AM »

I wouldn't and didn't make a very good fed. (army, a mechanic)
Thanks for the heads up John.
I'm just getting my head around this nonviolence thing.
Didn't buy it at all til the Sam incident,  had a "damn it actually worked" moment when he was thrown out of jail.
The thugs being caught on tape make my blood boil and I wanted to vent.
I did it in a place where I would be corrected instead of insulted.
Just trolls on the BBS my ass.
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BobRobertson

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2010, 09:25:05 AM »

The thugs being caught on tape make my blood boil and I wanted to vent.

There ya go. I assure you, everyone who isn't a thug feels this way.

It's that damned Sovereign Immunity thing, that attracts low-life into the ranks of "officers" where they can be all-powerful and not face repercussions for their actions. Petty tyrants, gangsters with badges.

The Non-Aggression Principle is simple, it is wrong to initiate force. It's how civil people interact all the time, peacefully, voluntarily.

Cops initiate force. They deliberately escalate violence, they are trained and rewarded for being "decisive" in the same way that "great" Presidents are the ones that killed the greatest number of people.

That's why I, and you, and others who understand the Non-Aggression Principle get so very frustrated when watching cops violating this basic idea of civil society and getting away with it. They are not responsible for their actions, while us "civilians" are held by law to much higher standards of conduct ESPECIALLY when interacting with the thugs whether we want to interact or not.

The only reason "we" have a leg to stand on, morally speaking, is that we also hold ourselves to that higher standard. The cops are left with nothing but the "law" on their side. No respect, no deference, no sheen of legitimacy. They are just an occupying army.

Double standards. Hypocrisy. Eli Rivera whining at the camera, "It's just a job!" exactly the same way the Nuremberg defendants tried to excuse their actions with, "I was only following orders."


If a truly free society did happen, I wouldn't even want them prosecuted for the crimes they committed as cops. The South African "Truth and Reconciliation" path is, I believe, the way to finally overcome the institutionalized violence we have had to deal with.

Abolish the institution of "legitimate coercion", no more Sovereign Immunity, everyone gains the benefit of individual responsibility for their individual actions.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

John Shaw

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2010, 09:38:38 AM »

I'm just getting my head around this nonviolence thing.

Well, it's not a matter of nonviolence to me, it's a matter of self preservation. If you get violent with people who are violent for a living and outnumber you tens of thousands to one, you will lose.

Not only will you lose, but you poison the well for other people who think like you do. When you retaliate against the state with violence, you end up dead and all the other freedom people get a nice fat dose of screw tightening.

While you have no obligation to protect your fellow freedom lovers, or even care about the consequences that will be visited upon them, it's something to consider if your goal is for people to see what you are doing and support your actions. They won't. They will recoil in horror and get pissed because now things will be all the harder for them.

When some dude finally goes off his nut and shoots up an IRS office or something, my first reaction is not "Score one point for freedom lolol!", it's "Jesus FUCK, this is gonna suck for the rest of us."

I am not alone in this.

Also, not all of us are "Nonviolent". Non-initiation leaves a hell of a lot of room for retaliation, and even some tasty, honey roasted vengeance. Some of us just know the odds. You don't go up against the state, unless you want to die. The concept of dying for what I believe in is a contradiction because I believe in living. Fuck dying for a cause. If' I'm dead, there's no more ME. I like me and I'd prefer to delay the whole death thing as long as possible.

Some random asshole tries to kill me? Well, if I can help it he's got a rapid temperature change due to the installation of a new ventilation system in store. The gooberment cracks down? I run far and fast. Run and hide, baby, run and hide. Better yet, don't be seen doing anything that makes 'em mad.

As for the whole "I really hate interacting with the state, so what I'm going to do is constantly put myself into situations where I am in direct conflict with them and getting myself arrested." thing, well, I've never been into whips and chains. Not what I get off on. If Ole Sammy Boy gets his rocks that way, more power to him. I dunno if it helps anyone else, though.

Just trolls on the BBS my ass.

Many trolls have come and gone, but it's not "Just" trolls here. There are many good people here. Hell, there are even a couple of good trolls. People who say that are just butthurt because they ran afoul of one. Or made an ass of themselves and were torn to shreds. Almost no limitations on expression + cynical people = some pretty brutal social Darwinism. Ya wanna talk conspiracy theories? Get slammed down. Wanna talk Jesus? Probably get slammed down. Wanna talk "Economic Rent"? Get slammed like a motherfucker. Bring up minarchism vs. anarchism? All holy hell will fall from the sky like a rain of turds on a hot day.

Some people (Thin skinned ones) may, in fact, interpret that as trolling. Not so much. Flamewars <> Trolling.

Anyway, if you ain't a fed come hang out and chill. If you are, well, come hang out and chill anyway, just don't kill anybody.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 09:41:48 AM by John Shaw »
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BobRobertson

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2010, 10:39:15 AM »

Not only will you lose, but you poison the well for other people who think like you do. When you retaliate against the state with violence, you end up dead and all the other freedom people get a nice fat dose of screw tightening.

Oh yeah, and this in SPADES.

I am very much not one of those "let's make things so bad that everybody wakes up" people.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2010, 11:39:13 AM »

1) Record incident to video.
2) If you happen to get arrested make sure you setup the camera with a lockup code of some kind so the idiots can't do much to it. An option would be to have that quik shit running.
3) If you get arrested, don't sweat it you have the video somewhere.
4) Sue the shit out of them and help the victim in their own case.
5) ???
6) PROFIT
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alaric89

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2010, 04:06:15 PM »

When I was a young comic book reading nerd, I thought the better man stood and fought. My heroes from film and comics indeed did, using violence and force.
Now that I am a older comic book reading nerd, I see proof coming out of NH that nonviolence is the better strategy to achieve my goals. (that whole freer society thing)
The little kid with the superman jammies inside me still wants to kick butt when he sees the crapcops on youtube though.
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TimeLady Victorious

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Re: Don't initiate violence?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2010, 08:34:30 PM »

When I was a young comic book reading nerd, I thought the better man stood and fought. My heroes from film and comics indeed did, using violence and force.
Now that I am a older comic book reading nerd, I see proof coming out of NH that nonviolence is the better strategy to achieve my goals. (that whole freer society thing)
The little kid with the superman jammies inside me still wants to kick butt when he sees the crapcops on youtube though.

Do you know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed.
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